Raiding is on the verge of destroying huge segments of the GW2 community, if it hasn't already - Page 7 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Raiding is on the verge of destroying huge segments of the GW2 community, if it hasn't already

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  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 19, 2018

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    While people who are more casual might spend money on the game (especially new players who feel they have to catch up), to assume that players who are most invested will spend none is plain incorrect.

    It's not that they spend none. Of course they do. It's just that generally they aren't among the highest-spending crowd.

    That's all based on the assumption that people with gold will convert this gold into gems and not use cash.

    There is people with 25,000 hours of play time, 70 characters, 100+ gifts of exploration. Take a guess how much money they have spent on the game? I personally almost never convert gold to gems since I can spare money to get gems and buy things from the gem store if I want to. Not every one is a poor student who can't afford to buy gems (I've been through that time myself).

    The things is, if you can afford to buy gems, there is absolutely no reason to convert gold. That is time wasted. To assume that people will spend gold to get gems while being financially good enough off to spare money on the game is insanity.

    Again, this entire premise is flawed. People who are most invested are most likely to spend money and continued money on the game. That's the only fact you need.

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 19, 2018

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    While people who are more casual might spend money on the game (especially new players who feel they have to catch up), to assume that players who are most invested will spend none is plain incorrect.

    It's not that they spend none. Of course they do. It's just that generally they aren't among the highest-spending crowd.

    [CITATION NEEDED]

    No one other than Anet actually has access to this information. Stop making things up.

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion

  • @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    While people who are more casual might spend money on the game (especially new players who feel they have to catch up), to assume that players who are most invested will spend none is plain incorrect.

    It's not that they spend none. Of course they do. It's just that generally they aren't among the highest-spending crowd.

    That's all based on the assumption that people with gold will convert this gold into gems and not use cash.

    There is people with 25,000 hours of play time, 70 characters, 100+ gifts of exploration. Take a guess how much money they have spent on the game? I personally almost never convert gold to gems since I can spare money to get gems and buy things from the gem store if I want to. Not every one is a poor student who can't afford to buy gems (I've been through that time myself).

    The things is, if you can afford to buy gems, there is absolutely no reason to convert gold. That is time wasted. To assume that people will spend gold to get gems while being financially good enough off to spare money on the game is insanity.

    Again, this entire premise is flawed. People who are most invested are most likely to spend money and continued money on the game. That's the only fact you need.

    If I had the money, I likely still would look to conversion first over spending money because as much as I love the game, I would rather not use my money to buy mostly aesthetics if they were within my easy gold earning range. I would rather save my money to put toward new games as well, which are usually expensive. As an Australian, games sometimes release at $90 for us and sometimes more. And when I do buy gems, I buy gem cards because in AU it is cheaper to buy it from a store.

    My exception is buying content in general. When I was missing LWS2, I dropped money on that the moment it went on sale.
    And I immediately buy the expansions.

    Founder of Affinitus Nemus [AFNM]
    "Join Us, We're Lonely" - Our Guild At Some Point

    JUST LIKE THE LORAX, WE SPEAK FOR THE TREES!

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    While people who are more casual might spend money on the game (especially new players who feel they have to catch up), to assume that players who are most invested will spend none is plain incorrect.

    It's not that they spend none. Of course they do. It's just that generally they aren't among the highest-spending crowd.

    This is only based on reports and "research" on mobile games where the casual crowd turns into whales in order to progress faster, due to limited time. The highest spending crowd in actual mmorpgs is the crowd that is deeply invested into a game, since there is no pay to skip in mmorpgs.

  • I dont see how raiding is destroying the gw2 community. Especially since most, and i do mean a big most, of the community doesnt even raid. If anything the raiding community is just killing themselves slowly. They make the game not fun. For example waiting in lfg for more than 5 min for a group is ridiculous. Asking and waiting for all these requirements just to fail is insane. I dont ping anything because its a useless act that doesnt prove anything. And i no longer wait more than 5 min for a group because my time is more important than the meager rewards from raiding.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Magnus Godrik.5841 said:
    I dont see how raiding is destroying the gw2 community. Especially since most, and i do mean a big most, of the community doesnt even raid. If anything the raiding community is just killing themselves slowly. They make the game not fun. For example waiting in lfg for more than 5 min for a group is ridiculous. Asking and waiting for all these requirements just to fail is insane. I dont ping anything because its a useless act that doesnt prove anything. And i no longer wait more than 5 min for a group because my time is more important than the meager rewards from raiding.

    Waiting for T4s and/or fractal CM players usually takes more time than waiting for a raid player. Only if you are looking for a chrono you'll be waiting aeons in both lfgs. That's why we cover the support roles by ourselves if we need a 5th/10th player from the lfg. Additionally most pug chronos are suboptimal compared to ours.

  • @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    While people who are more casual might spend money on the game (especially new players who feel they have to catch up), to assume that players who are most invested will spend none is plain incorrect.

    It's not that they spend none. Of course they do. It's just that generally they aren't among the highest-spending crowd.

    This is only based on reports and "research" on mobile games where the casual crowd turns into whales in order to progress faster, due to limited time. The highest spending crowd in actual mmorpgs is the crowd that is deeply invested into a game, since there is no pay to skip in mmorpgs.

    I have seen plenty of people in Overwatch, CS:GO and this game who are casual players who don't get enough time to grind out what they want and instead spend their excess money on those games simply because so much of their time is used to make money, that they have excess and choose to spend that money in games that normally require time to get what they want simply by using money to skip over some of the time that they wouldn't have.

    That report can still hold merit amongst the general gaming community because those players with extra income exist in our community and still possess the same spending habits they do elsewhere.

    Founder of Affinitus Nemus [AFNM]
    "Join Us, We're Lonely" - Our Guild At Some Point

    JUST LIKE THE LORAX, WE SPEAK FOR THE TREES!

  • @maddoctor.2738 said:
    That data doesn't show anything about how many times those players replayed the content.

    Replaying content was never the point. Strawman. Also it is data instead of non based claims of raids being popular. Raids are btw. also needed for legendary equip, so by your logic the same amount of players which reached fractal 10 should have done raids. You are simply wrong, can't base your claims on anything and the only data we have access to proves you wrong.

    You were talking about story not group content. I responded to that.

    Because someone claimed that group content needs to be replayable and storycontent is not replayable. Which is obviously nonsense.

    No there weren't. You are remembering the time when only CoF P1 was being run 100 times per day. That was fixed quickly.

    I asume you are new to the game and haven't played in 2014-2015? AC was also very popular. Or TA. Or SE. Arah or HoTW were less frequented, sure. They are by far more difficult and many players were not able to beat this content.

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    It's better that way than comparing the fractal level with the amount of LI.

    A listing is like a picture. If you take a picture of a busy road you see maybe 20 cars. Compared to a picture of a parking lot where you can see 50 cars the parking seems to be more frequented. But the same cars are still standing there 3 hours later, while the road has been frequented by 20000 cars in the meantime. Absolutly no one takes a momentary picture of an "unsteady flow" as indicator of activity. This would only work, if all listings take the same time to fill. They don't. Some listings take half an hour or longer to fill. That's actually an indicator of low activity. But by your logic it indicates high activity. If listings fill up fast they are up for a few seconds and not many are visible at the same time. By your logic this indicates low activity.

  • @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @Magnus Godrik.5841 said:
    I dont see how raiding is destroying the gw2 community. Especially since most, and i do mean a big most, of the community doesnt even raid. If anything the raiding community is just killing themselves slowly. They make the game not fun. For example waiting in lfg for more than 5 min for a group is ridiculous. Asking and waiting for all these requirements just to fail is insane. I dont ping anything because its a useless act that doesnt prove anything. And i no longer wait more than 5 min for a group because my time is more important than the meager rewards from raiding.

    Waiting for T4s and/or fractal CM players usually takes more time than waiting for a raid player. Only if you are looking for a chrono you'll be waiting aeons in both lfgs. That's why we cover the support roles by ourselves if we need a 5th/10th player from the lfg. Additionally most pug chronos are suboptimal compared to ours.

    T4 arent that bad but for cm yeah i can see that. Its very discouraging when they ask for this kp. Unfortunate for me i cant join cms because i didnt do them day 1. Not that im a bad player but i would be learning it and noone wants to give a chance nowadays. So just like that i will be 1 less person doing them making that niche that much smaller. And i get it, noone wants to fail.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 19, 2018

    @Jockum.1385 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    No there weren't. You are remembering the time when only CoF P1 was being run 100 times per day. That was fixed quickly.

    I asume you are new to the game and haven't played in 2014-2015? AC was also very popular. Or TA. Or SE. Arah or HoTW were less frequented, sure. They are by far more difficult and many players were not able to beat this content.

    No he is not new to the game. Strait at vanilla, CoF P1 (and later P2 after the initial nerfs when dungeon rewards would reset after x amount of dungeon paths) was farmed by far the most. Reason being that tokens were not limited by day, the path was completed in 5-7 minutes and the rewards were both above level 68 (for salvaging into ectos) and berserker (which after the initial run on soldier became the go-to gear 3-4 weeks in).

    All other paths even if easy were run a lot less, even AC since those tokens gave soldier gear and sub level 68 exotics and rares.

    The entire reason to change how dungeon rewards worked was to make people run something BESIDES CoF P1 (and then later the fastest paths you needed to complete to get back to CoF P1+2 and get tokens). You are incorrect.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 20, 2018

    @Jockum.1385 said:
    Replaying content was never the point.

    Replayability of group content means healthy group content, if it's not replayed then it's not healthy content. I think that is obvious. Story content isn't replayable, but it's designed not to be replayable.

    Absolutly no one takes a momentary picture of an "unsteady flow" as indicator of activity.

    If you think about it, that's exactly what you are doing with your "dungeons were popular back then" argument though, unless you have some actual data to back that up.

    Take some actually useful gw2efficiency data, comparing episode story completion, with more recent raid and fractal releases:
    Freezie: 10.818% / 7.690% (finished / snowball achievement)
    A Star to Guide Us: 32.544% / 27.109% (first instance / last instance)
    Mythwright Gambit: 7.343% / 4.326% (first boss / last boss)
    Long Live the Lich: 43.924% / 34.824% (first instance / last instance)
    Deepstone: 23.420% / 13.252% (easier achievement / harder achievement)
    Daybreak: 54.323% / 44.326% (first instance / last instance)
    Twilight Oasis: 17.485% / 10.216% (easier achievement / harder achievement)
    Hall of Chains: 9.570% / 6.645% (first boss / last boss)

    Edit: and one more: 26273 signed up for the big lottery that's 26% of the tracked population (which is how many gw2efficiency users are actively watching the website)

  • @Cyninja.2954 said:
    The entire reason to change how dungeon rewards worked was to make people run something BESIDES CoF P1 (and then later the fastest paths you needed to complete to get back to CoF P1+2 and get tokens). You are incorrect.

    You are refering to a few weeks after release, he was speaking of "pre HoT" so when dungeons rewarded you with 1G or more for each path. In 2014-2015 a COE fullrun took ~30 mins and dropped relativly good loot compared to COF. SE 1+3 was also a very fast and popular run. Same for TA up-forward. Or CM fullrun. Or AC fullrun. HoTW and arah were by far less popular I'd say, bc of much increased difficulty in comparision. Maybe dungeons were earlier even more popular (lfg didn't exist initially, so I doubt it, but whatever). Even a few days before dungeon rewards got reduced in 2015 dungeons were popular and groups filled very fast. Dungeons are dead since then, but before they were pretty populated and even in 2015 there were plenty of "p1" "1+2+3" "p1 exp" "p1 exp fullzerk" listings.

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    Replayability of group content means healthy group content, if it's not replayed then it's not healthy content. I think that is obvious. Story content isn't replayable, but it's designed not to be replayable.

    You are confusing group content with hardcorecontent.
    Replayability has nothing to do with group- or solocontent. Replayability matters for hardcorecontent. A high replayability indicates hardcorecontent, it has nothing to do with group content. Single player hardcorecontent also needs a high replayability.
    Most obvious example: what about group story content as in GW1? All GW1 story content is group content.

    Content for hardcoreplayers as raids (but also WvW, PvP, achievements, legendary weapons etc.) need to be repetitive. Hardcoreplayers log in daily and ofc it is impossible to deliver new content on a daily basis. Therefore there needs to be content with replayability, as SW farming, fractals, raids. For a high replayability well made rewards, more polished bosses and so on are needed.
    For core- or casual players this doesn't matter as much. They log in, as example, once a week. They consume much less content and are also less interested in farming content hundreds of times to get their fractal god or whatever. For them it is important that GW2 has something to offer and they don't care about for them unreachable longterm goals. They want to log in into GW2 and do some interesting content, have some fun. Some of these players are only interested in solo content. Others are (it's a MMO after all) interested in doing content together with some friends. Group content for the latter does not need to be super polished.

    Ideally a company tries to achieve a certain replayability for all content. In GW1 storymissions (a bit comparable to GW2 dungeon story mode) gained an increased replayability when Anet added new rewards. Anet added zaishen missions, some form of character based "daily" as in GW2. So especially for short story missions hardcoreplayers replayed them with many characters to farm some extra tokens for increased bag size, special skins and so on.
    Another example are event quests in GW1 which are also character based. Casuals did them once and spend maybe 3 hours or so doing them, enjoyed their wintersday quests and got a fun time. Hardcoreplayers did them on all of their 10 characters for loot.
    For GW2, as example: Anet could easily recycle content as https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Confessor's_End could easily be used as group content. As suggestion: keep it as it is as "solomode" and add a "teammode" with buffed enemies. Teammode gets called "storymissions" and gets a similar hub as fractals. To add some replayability to also cater more to hardcore- and coregamers it would be possible to add more valueable drops to trash enemies. Dredge fractal was also pretty rewarding bc of all those bags which dropped there. It would also be possible to add tokens for doing such storymissions, which then could be used as currency for increased bag size, new skins and so on. This content would be easy content. It would not be challenging as raids and therefore more boring to hardcoreplayers. But it would cater to all kinds of players and to some degree "unite" the playerbase a little bit. Some hardcoreplayers might join casual groups, people play content together, might give each other advice about builds etc.
    Content which could be recycled as such "casual teamcontent" exists a lot in GW2. Other options to create such content with very little effort are either using open world maps (see https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/A_Light_in_the_Darkness) and re-use of old bosses with tweaked stats. Kholer is, for casual players, an interesting boss. Remove add spawn, increase his stats: It'll teach players a bit to dodge and it'll also teach them about projectile defense or stabi. Even all three VG pre "bosses" could be used with tweaked stats as some final boss for casual teamcontent. Or Anet uses editor content. In games with good map editors even pupils can glue a relativly interesting map + enemies + quests together in a few hours. In some games as WC3 this added tons of content - some of it was really good, despite limited options compared to real game devs.

    Take some actually useful gw2efficiency data, comparing episode story completion, with more recent raid and fractal releases:

    Even those numbers strongly indicate that raids are by far less popular than fractals. Dungeons are, ofc, a very problematic comparision bc there are no new dungeons to compare to.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jockum.1385 said:
    Replayability has nothing to do with group- or solocontent. Replayability matters for hardcorecontent.

    This makes no sense. Any kind of group content requires replayability otherwise you won't have players to play it anymore. As players move on, by finishing the content, newer players won't be able to find others to play with.

    All GW1 story content is group content.

    No it's not, GW1 story is a solo experience. It has absolutely no requirement to group, there is a reason they had henchmen (and then heroes) in the game, because they knew finding others to play the story would be hard due to the lack of replayability.

    Even those numbers strongly indicate that raids are by far less popular than fractals.

    Actually they don't. I'm not sure why you compare Raids to Fractals though.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 26, 2018

    @Yasi.9065 said:
    Quite honestly, you cant go and point fingers saying "THAT part of the community doesnt spend ANY money on the game, they are all leeches!". The kind of content you like doesnt really define how much money you spend. It depends on how much money you have in rl, if you could possibly even spend something. It depends on your personal tastes (me for example, I just dont like 90% of the gemshop content and I stopped buying skins). It depends also on your mindset.

    Going to quote this because it amazes me how people can still not understand this.

    The very first hurdle is:
    Can you afford to buy gems?

    Only if that question is answered with yes does anything else matter. At that point the next question becomes:
    What do people in general spend money on?

    A very general answer being: things they enjoy, are invested in and/or desire.

    With these 2 questions, and if I might add quite logic approaches, there is no way to rationally argue that raiders spend no money on the game. Gold conversion is INSANELY inefficient time wise. Why would any sane person who has the money to buy gems and convert them (or rather spend them on the gem shop) decide to effectively trade this amount of time in?

    @Yasi.9065 said:

    Except for powertrading theres no content in the game that creates enough gold to convert and buy constantly. And powertrading only if you are part of the top 100 doing it, because its a rich get richer environment.

    This is also true. As always, people who successfully engage in market actions will be the only ones who can regularly convert gems. The reason is very strait forward:

    The TP is the only content in the game which is NOT heavily monitored for the amount of reward it gives. Any other content in the game is balanced AROUND the games economy as in to not be to damaging or effective. This alone disqualifies any content in this game (or any group playing this content) from living off of these rewards alone (modified by spending habits of individuals obviously). Now you could argue that raids are way overperforming reward wise to which you would basically get laughed out of the forums.

    @Yasi.9065 said:

    And btw just because someone is "casual" doesnt mean that player is willing to spend money on the gemshop. The ones I know that spend most on gems, are those actually converting gems to gold to buy themselves legendaries. PvPers, WvWers. Id say the "casual" openworlder doesnt spend any more on the game then a raider or someone running fractals for fun. Stop feeling entitled.

    While I have experienced similar things, I would again apply the rational:

    Players who are capable to spend money,
    Players who enjoy the game,
    Players who are invested in the game,
    will spend money on it.

    The rationale that a player with few play hours spends money will depend on if they are invested enough (through their very low play time) to be willing to spend money.

  • I put a lot of time in gw 2 or dedication got 3 characters with full ascended gear, my reaperis fully geared even got those mighty infusions for the extra stats, even tarting to craft my first legendary oh but guess what im not met, i cant get into raid groups -.-, t4 fractals do it everyday, cant get group for cms, i dont have KP...

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 29, 2018

    @Hugedeal.5426 said:
    I put a lot of time in gw 2 or dedication got 3 characters with full ascended gear, my reaperis fully geared even got those mighty infusions for the extra stats, even tarting to craft my first legendary oh but guess what im not met, i cant get into raid groups -.-, t4 fractals do it everyday, cant get group for cms, i dont have KP...

    Open your own CM groups without KP requirement!
    One result is that you can learn with others and practice until you finally mastered them + having enough KP to get into KP groups. The other one is you'll learn why you have to in these specific groups because you yourself will fail mechanics a lot at the start before you get better. You are not exception to every other player that learned in the past. KP groups do not want to fail, they do not only want to be effective they want to be efficient. Today I ran CMs + T4s + Recs with an organized groups and we only wiped once in the whole run (at the start of the dredge fractal). You won't see that in pugs but I demand almost perfection in terms of not-wiping from my CM groups because everything else is a huge waste of time in my eyes.

  • Hugedeal.5426Hugedeal.5426 Member ✭✭
    edited December 29, 2018

    Thx for the reply, tbh i feel like gw 2 content the ay it is shown is not friendly to new players specially due to the alianation of the meta builds, i apreciate for all the replies i think ima just move to ff 14, at least the raiing in there follows the same as wow... i'll have an easier time there i guess, gl and ty :d.

  • Xar.6279Xar.6279 Member ✭✭
    edited December 29, 2018

    @Hugedeal.5426 said:
    So what your saying is gw 2 was made for experienced players, as non kp groups sometimes ask for stupid demands...

    GW2 is made for everyone and for noone at the same time :P That's the problem. ArenaNet wants to keep everyone here, but its not easy to do. They wanted to bring mass-pvp(wvw) / pvp / pve / players etc etc. But they dont support any of those modes enough. The only successful thing they made is combat and movement system.

    There's ALOT of things that makes raids so bad in this game. It would require many hours to describe it all, so its not worth.
    Gw2 just wasnt made as raiding mmorpg, so it wont be one of these. Unfortunately.

    Fun fact: ArenaNet wants to make everything casual and friendly,
    but at the same time their friendly solutions creates bigger elitism and problems than in hardcore raiding games xD

  • @maddoctor.2738 said:
    This makes no sense. Any kind of group content requires replayability otherwise you won't have players to play it anymore. As players move on, by finishing the content, newer players won't be able to find others to play with.

    That can be, indeed, a problem. I also indicated how you can add easily replayability to such content. But it is not needed as long as there are npcs helping you out.

    No it's not, GW1 story is a solo experience. It has absolutely no requirement to group, there is a reason they had henchmen (and then heroes) in the game, because they knew finding others to play the story would be hard due to the lack of replayability.

    Finding a group wasn't really a problem when GW1 still got supported.
    It is a huge difference if content is designed for 8 people and can be done with the help of npcs - or if it is designed as solo content. The former is group content. The latter isn't. Same as dungeons and fractals are designed and balanced for 5 people, but can be low manned. Most people still choose 5 people instead of 1-3.
    I got a guild, I can choose to run GW1 content with them. But there is no point in doing a vista with my guildmates. Human players had advantages over NPCs. For years henchman had a stupid KI and questionable builds. Heros (three per player) were added with nighfall, GWs second expansions - not earlier. Heros could not use PVE skills, which is a huge disadvantage for experienced players. For unexperienced: you need to know builds for all classes. You also needed to unlock required skills, equip hero-npcs and be able to steer them while in combat. Many beginners parked their monks in enemy AOE etc. Overall: there were still lots of people searching for groups, even for storycontent. But you got a point, there were huge debates in all GW1 forums about this. Because it harmed the multiplayer aspect of GW1 and it's community. Similar as in GW2, where a community never really has formed except in some niche content as dungeons/raids/wvw.

    I'm not sure why you compare Raids to Fractals though.

    Some pages ago someone claimed that raids are more popular than more casual group content (as dungeons or fractals). All numbers we know strongly indicate the opposite. In most content is easier content usually by far more popular and hardcorecontent niche. But whatever, I gave numbers and reasons, while the other side got nothing excpet wild claims based on nothing. So wake me up when someone got better data, until then -> BS.

    @Xar.6279 said:
    The only successful thing they made is combat and movement system.

    GW2s combat system has serious flaws. They become apparent when you imagine it without movement or dodging. Combat system is a mixture of movement (which is pretty good) and skillsystem (not so great). As the most obvious examples: rotations - which already tells a lot. It indicates "macro/bot like behaviour", instead of a clever usage of skills according to the ingame situation. Stacking counters mobility. There are also lots of spammed effects (as boonremoval on autoattack), lots of passive effects (see sigils/runes/traits). Buffs are partywide, no brain needed for applying them to useful targets. Same for damage, most is AOE. Etc.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jockum.1385 said:
    That can be, indeed, a problem. I also indicated how you can add easily replayability to such content. But it is not needed as long as there are npcs helping you out.

    Now you want henchmen/ heroes too. I have a feeling that what you are after is GW1, in that case the game is still alive and you can go play it if you want.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 30, 2018

    @Xar.6279 said:
    GW2 is made for everyone and for noone at the same time :P That's the problem.

    Agreed. Anet is way too afraid of deciding what their target group is, and sticking with that decision. Or, even worse, announcing it.

    The only successful thing they made is combat and movement system.

    It can be possibly called succesful only in a very narrow sense, and only if we don't look and how it meshes (or doesn't mesh) with other systems. Active combat on its own is fine. It's not fine when coupled with current gear/stat system (which was clearly designed for a more static combat design, with no active defences). It's not fine when coupled with skill system, which isn't really made for fast-paced action combat (it's too complicated for it). The combination of those three systems is the primary reason why in GW2 the gap between casual and hardcore players is much greater than in other MMORPGs. And the main fault lies at the feet of the one thing that doesn't fit - the combat and movement system you mentioned. So, in this regard it is extremely unsuccesful. A mistake.

    There's ALOT of things that makes raids so bad in this game. It would require many hours to describe it all, so its not worth.
    Gw2 just wasnt made as raiding mmorpg, so it wont be one of these. Unfortunately.

    That is definitely true. And trying to make it a more raider-friendly MMO is not really viable - the price the game would need to pay is just way too big.

    Fun fact: ArenaNet wants to make everything casual and friendly,
    but at the same time their friendly solutions creates bigger elitism and problems than in hardcore raiding games xD

    That's not entirely true - the elitism and toxicity definitely exist in other games as well, and to the same degree. It can sometimes not be so apparent, but only because there's a much greater separation between casual and hardcore communities. In GW2 up to a certain point everything was casual, and that label stays with the game even now, when it's no longer as true as before. Thus, the clashes between two groups are way more common and visible. But the elitism itself is nothing new.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Opopanax.1803Opopanax.1803 Member ✭✭✭

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    With this downward trend, are we going to eventually see certain pieces of content, stop being developed?

    The reality is that this is only true of people that participate in gw2 efficiencies.

    I would argue that the vast majority of gw2 players rarely touch that stuff.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Opopanax.1803 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    With this downward trend, are we going to eventually see certain pieces of content, stop being developed?

    The reality is that this is only true of people that participate in gw2 efficiencies.

    I would argue that the vast majority of gw2 players rarely touch that stuff.

    I do too, which is why the numbers of the Lair of the Snowmen from efficiency is going to be off.

  • For the pro argument for raiding, it added a diversionary content after being done with HoT masteries and it showed to anet that there was interest in legendary armor. For the cons, it further broke up the teamwork that HoT did by having so much to do and so many varied places that each of the guildees wished to do to get items done off their checklists. When legendary armor was announced it said that a part of the rewards would require raiding. Now I took that to mean similar to gen 1 weapons and requiring a small part of WvW required, so therefore a small part of raiding would be required. I don't have the time to dedicate the raiding part required for legendary armor so the raiding leggie armor is off the table at the moment. So for a small part of the community, it gave them an outlet and kept people playing for something while whatever glamour the HoT expac had kept fading and fading. People will reward content they like, so yes even some raiders will contribute to the game, notably woodytaters had been mentioned as a whale, now he is more than a raider, he also earns some real life money due to being a partner, so he definitely enjoys the game. So while raiding was introduced as a part of HoT and HoT did alot to break up the community, raiding by itself did not hurt the game and gave some a reason to stay and contribute, so it's a wash. As far as the Lair of the Snowmen, I did complete it once the very first afternoon, but since it did not give a raid mastery I did not go back.

  • The main problem with GW2 is the steep learning curve for raids. Most MMOs have a normal mode raid for newbies who are learning and a hard mode raid for hardcore experienced raiders, GW2 has nothing of the sort. Just look at how Elder Scrolls Online does it well, in those 12 man dungeons it doesn't take huge DPS numbers or experienced players to successfully complete normal runs, only in veteran mode is high DPS and experience required. GW2 just needs an easy mode raid level so that newer players can learn the mechanics without wiping the group.

  • SunTzu.4513SunTzu.4513 Member ✭✭✭

    GW2 just needs an easy mode raid level so that newer players can learn the mechanics without wiping the group.

    I personaly don't think an normal/hard mode system will change the raid requirements for pugs. Only an autofill LFR like the WoW one will do this as an super easy acess for those who actually struggling to get into groups. In every other mmo game i played wich has those different difficultys even in the normal mode pugs has strict requirements. People in PUG's always try to get the players with killproof, bis gear, exp etc. They don't want to do the progressing way of play every time they set up an LFG for a raid. Also in GW2 plenty of learning Raid guilds and communitys exists. Also a lot of guilds are helping seriously intersted players to get into raiding if they are willing to invest time and effort.

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vaelen.5294 said:
    The main problem with GW2 is the steep learning curve for raids. Most MMOs have a normal mode raid for newbies who are learning and a hard mode raid for hardcore experienced raiders, GW2 has nothing of the sort. Just look at how Elder Scrolls Online does it well, in those 12 man dungeons it doesn't take huge DPS numbers or experienced players to successfully complete normal runs, only in veteran mode is high DPS and experience required. GW2 just needs an easy mode raid level so that newer players can learn the mechanics without wiping the group.

    But most of the gw2 raids are easy and dont require high dps. Mechanics or failing them kills players in raids. Some mechanics can Be hard yes, but most raids are really noob friendly for dps players.

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vaelen.5294 said:
    The main problem with GW2 is the steep learning curve for raids. Most MMOs have a normal mode raid for newbies who are learning and a hard mode raid for hardcore experienced raiders, GW2 has nothing of the sort. Just look at how Elder Scrolls Online does it well, in those 12 man dungeons it doesn't take huge DPS numbers or experienced players to successfully complete normal runs, only in veteran mode is high DPS and experience required. GW2 just needs an easy mode raid level so that newer players can learn the mechanics without wiping the group.

    To avoid repeating the same arguments and turn this thread into that other one, you can find an 86-page thread on that subject here:
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/18677/do-raids-need-easy-normal-hard-difficulty-mode-merged/p1

  • Shikaru.7618Shikaru.7618 Member ✭✭✭

    @Vaelen.5294 said:
    The main problem with GW2 is the steep learning curve for raids. Most MMOs have a normal mode raid for newbies who are learning and a hard mode raid for hardcore experienced raiders, GW2 has nothing of the sort. Just look at how Elder Scrolls Online does it well, in those 12 man dungeons it doesn't take huge DPS numbers or experienced players to successfully complete normal runs, only in veteran mode is high DPS and experience required. GW2 just needs an easy mode raid level so that newer players can learn the mechanics without wiping the group.

    Most bosses can be killed with abysmal dps. The problem is that when newbies step into a raid they're not learning mechanics, they're still learning the basics of combat because story and open world do a poor job of teaching players. You take a bunch of veteran open world players, anecdotally, they cant tell you what half of their traits do let alone know what buttons to press to cc. If mechanics is all people needed to learn, hitting the dodge button when your screen turns bright yellow is not hard. Too bad they're not watching for that tell because they're too busy looking at their skill bar wondering what buttons 2-10 do. Class basics shouldnt be something a player still has to learn after doing all story content up to pof but sadly it is for most new players who join training raids.

  • Malediktus.9250Malediktus.9250 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 6, 2019

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Jockum.1385 said:
    Replaying content was never the point.

    Replayability of group content means healthy group content, if it's not replayed then it's not healthy content. I think that is obvious. Story content isn't replayable, but it's designed not to be replayable.

    Absolutly no one takes a momentary picture of an "unsteady flow" as indicator of activity.

    If you think about it, that's exactly what you are doing with your "dungeons were popular back then" argument though, unless you have some actual data to back that up.

    Take some actually useful gw2efficiency data, comparing episode story completion, with more recent raid and fractal releases:
    Freezie: 10.818% / 7.690% (finished / snowball achievement)
    A Star to Guide Us: 32.544% / 27.109% (first instance / last instance)
    Mythwright Gambit: 7.343% / 4.326% (first boss / last boss)
    Long Live the Lich: 43.924% / 34.824% (first instance / last instance)
    Deepstone: 23.420% / 13.252% (easier achievement / harder achievement)
    Daybreak: 54.323% / 44.326% (first instance / last instance)
    Twilight Oasis: 17.485% / 10.216% (easier achievement / harder achievement)
    Hall of Chains: 9.570% / 6.645% (first boss / last boss)

    Edit: and one more: 26273 signed up for the big lottery that's 26% of the tracked population (which is how many gw2efficiency users are actively watching the website)

    You can sign up to the lottery without having a gw2efficiency account. You can sign up with multiple accounts to the lottery. You can chose to not take part in the lottery at all. You can also opt out of being part of the statistics.
    There are too many variables, but I found out only 1/3rd of the top 1000 achievement point players are on gw2efficiency. So 2/3 of the most active playerbase are not :(

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Malediktus.9250 said:
    There are too many variables, but I found out only 1/3rd of the top 1000 achievement point players are on gw2efficiency. So 2/3 of the most active playerbase are not :(

    How did you figure that out?

  • Miatela.5047Miatela.5047 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 6, 2019

    I'm going to throw another opinion into the mix. I like raiding (lots of clears, lots of CMs, all the usual), I think it is (overall) enjoyable but, in its current form, it is definitely detrimental to the community.

    In the past year, I went through about 4 statics, only one of those I left due to my own circumstances (change of work times) while the others collapsed. My current static has lost a few people so I can definitely agree that the community is being negatively impacted by how raids are implemented - we wouldn't be losing people due to raid burnout and my previous groups wouldn't have fallen apart due to burnout if it wasn't an issue.

    At this stage, raids have been in the game for over 3 years and the biggest reason I've noticed for people leaving is because they are pretty poorly balanced. We've had 3+ years of Chronomancer/Druid/Warrior and people don't always want to play such roles (or even those professions if they want to play support) leading to memes such as chronojail becoming pretty common in the raiding community. Being effectively forced to play Chronomancer (and even in the sense of nothing really being able to compete with it) has resulted in a few people I know leaving raiding outright. Having to play Druid instead of a main profession such as Tempest, Scrapper, Herald and so on also means that people are less keen to get into raids because it might mean playing a 4 hour old alt compared with a 400+ hour main.

    Couple that with the KP requirements that the community forces on people wanting to get into raiding (which I have no problem meeting) and you end up with a pretty toxic situation where people end up burning out because raid balance is poor and raid releases too small and infrequent but it is harder for new players to reach the level where the older raiders that left were at.

    On top of that, new raiders are faced with an utterly illogical situation where the raid wings (and even the bosses within those wings) aren't in an order of increasing difficulty, making the progression path confusing and challenging. Throw in the increasing bias towards power and condition exclusive bosses (W6 B1 and B2 being an excellent example here) and the barriers to get into raiding are steep. Since there is no gear progression, there is also the increasing toxicity of alt progression where it is becoming more and more common place to expect people to play all major DPS options and switch to the "best" profession for each boss. That doesn't help either.

    While that latter point probably can't be resolved without a huge overhaul, there are things that Arenanet can readily do to increase accessibility of raids and improve retention within the community.

    • We need difficulty progression in raids. The easiest encounter should come first, the hardest last. Since that can't be done given we've had 6 wings of no logical difficulty progression, an easy mode would allow people to get into raiding. I won't go into the details of how this should look, but it needs to be introduced.
    • Make CMs repeatable. The raid content release pace is abominably slow. Allowing CMs to be repeated for a slight increase in rewards would help hold people.
    • Balance needs to be reasonable. We shouldn't be at 3+ years of Chronomancer/Druid/Warrior, the former of which absolutely causes people to leave the game. We should have reasonable options that can compete for a quickness+alacrity/healing/offensive support. This will require a considerable overhaul and removing things like banners and spirits but it absolutely needs to happen.
    • New raids should offer more bosses, in a logical difficulty progression. Most new bosses are cleared within a day, but we need more bosses like Dhuum / Dhuum CM. Variable difficulties would allow for this sort of structure within a wing.
    • Actually having trash in the raid wings might help - not events but just mobs to take out so that you get a better idea of the lore and importance of the raid and what the next boss is going to do. Add in some unique exotic drops here and it shouldn't get too boring, especially as they aren't timed events like Spirit Woods. This trash should help to teach upcoming boss mechanics, similar to what Spirit Vale did, adding another difficulty scaffold.
    • Limit character switching in raids - while not a hard limit, an increase in gold dropped and increase chance of ascended items with each boss killed per wing would help. Obviously, this would be difficult to implement now because of asinine design decisions such as Deimos, River of Souls, Largos Twins and the heavy insistence on one damage type over another (eg CA vs LT) but with a longer raid wing with increasing difficulty as suggested above this could help.

    The other big issue is that the sheer amount of raid content is becoming too much. In other games new content supersedes the older raid wings but that doesn't happen in GW2 due to a lack of gear progression and very small raid wings. I'm aware of a few people that have stopped with GW2 because the amount of time for a full clear is erring on silly and this will only get worse as time goes on. I'm not entirely sure how to fix this, but it will need to be addressed eventually.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Miatela.5047 said:

    • Make CMs repeatable. The raid content release pace is abominably slow. Allowing CMs to be repeated for a slight increase in rewards would help hold people.

    That would split the community and it's the major hassle in implementing this (stated by the developers).

    I'm aware of a few people that have stopped with GW2 because the amount of time for a full clear is erring on silly and this will only get worse as time goes on. I'm not entirely sure how to fix this, but it will need to be addressed eventually.

    The solution to this is rather simple: don't do a full clear. I don't think this is even worth considering as a "problem".

  • Miatela.5047Miatela.5047 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 6, 2019

    I don't think posts that try to steer the conversation only to the negative points that someone wants to counteract are really helpful but, you'll get your response.

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    That would split the community and it's the major hassle in implementing this (stated by the developers).

    There is no evidence for this, as you are keen to point out against other arguments. In fact, looking at other games which have such a system implemented, it doesn't split the player base and instead encourages more people into the content, increasing the worth of development time spent on it.

    You only need to look into the developer discussion around WoW's LFG or FFXIV's 24 player content to see this.

    I've also never heard that easier modes are not being implemented because of technical reasons. Arenanet have only made ideological reasons as far as I know but I am happy to be corrected. On the other hand, we have active evidence that easier difficulties are readily implemented in the game through the entirety of the fractal system. An easier difficulty could also be created simply by increasing the number of players that can join a raid and not altering anything else (aside from rewards). This wasn't a discussion I wanted to get dragged into and will happily go with your suggestion not to focus on this and instead discuss the problems that are causing issues with raiding.

    The solution to this is rather simple: don't do a full clear. I don't think this is even worth considering as a "problem".

    I'm not sure much worthwhile discussion can happen if that is how you want to address legitimate issues. It can be considered a "problem" as it negatively affects how people play and has led to people leaving the mode. Your simple solution is also not simple - it doesn't take into account how people play, the groups they play in and your solution actively encourages the decline of the game mode. You want to retain players, not shrug your shoulders and suggest playing less!

  • Malediktus.9250Malediktus.9250 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 6, 2019

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Miatela.5047 said:

    • Make CMs repeatable. The raid content release pace is abominably slow. Allowing CMs to be repeated for a slight increase in rewards would help hold people.

    That would split the community and it's the major hassle in implementing this (stated by the developers).

    I'm aware of a few people that have stopped with GW2 because the amount of time for a full clear is erring on silly and this will only get worse as time goes on. I'm not entirely sure how to fix this, but it will need to be addressed eventually.

    The solution to this is rather simple: don't do a full clear. I don't think this is even worth considering as a "problem".

    I agree. 3 hours a week isn't even much yet.

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Malediktus.9250 said:
    There are too many variables, but I found out only 1/3rd of the top 1000 achievement point players are on gw2efficiency. So 2/3 of the most active playerbase are not :(

    How did you figure that out?

    It has been a while since I have been looking at it, but let me redo the math.

    649 people on EU with 35k AP title
    250 people on NA with 35k AP title
    899 total

    715 people on gw2 efficiency stats with 35k AP title (exalted achiever)

    79,5% of people over 35k AP are using gw2efficiency. Looks like the stats got better over time, but still seems pretty low considering how useful gw2efficiency is to veteran players.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Miatela.5047 said:
    I don't think posts that try to steer the conversation only to the negative points that someone wants to counteract are really helpful but, you'll get your response.

    I don't think responding to arguments that are thoroughly covered in other threads are worth discussing here.

    There is no evidence for this, as you are keen to point out against other arguments. In fact, looking at other games which have such a system implemented, it doesn't split the player base and instead encourages more people into the content, increasing the worth of development time spent on it.

    First of all, there is 86 page post on the subject of an easier mode, which is why I didn't respond to that part of your post.
    This is the developer stance on the subject of "Repeatable CMs", which was what I quoted:
    https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/8gpfac/the_game_have_never_been_better_and_still_i_play/dye2dsr/

    Speaking for Raids, I will say this much: the reason we don't allow CM to be repeatable is because we don't want to splinter the player base. Two different play modes will send all of the "elite" players to CM, leaving "normal" mode as less desirable. I'm not happy with how we originally introduced CM, and I continue to not be happy with how we implement it. There has to be a better way.
    I am looking into options for a more appealing alternative. There are a few ideas, some of which that have been proposed by the community, but it takes time to not just hem and haw over the decision (and get approvals from the powers that be), but also to properly implement it. It's not as simple as changing a line of code and BAM, it's all changed and ready to ship. It's thousands of content objects, potentially custom code, scripts that all need to interact properly, then doing this across all of the existing content, and testing it to find and fix dem bugs.
    All that to say: we hear you on the Raid CM front, and we're exploring options.

    It's more than ideological issue

    I'm not sure much worthwhile discussion can happen if that is how you want to address legitimate issues.

    I'm not sure how much of a "discussion" can come from:

    I'm not entirely sure how to fix this, but it will need to be addressed eventually.

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