Could Balthazar really be dead? Theory

I was watching a older video of Wooden Potatos on youtube absolutely love his stuff. However something stuck out to me, So we know there are 2 gods, or 1 god and a half god in the Fissure of Woe, who are fighting against each other. We have the Shadow army led by Menzies and the Eternal army led my Balthazar.However Menzies is known as the Deceiver and that's how he had even gained control over some of those towers in FoW. I bring this up because Balthazar who was a Righteous god who embraced the thrill of battle and the glory of battle does some pretty out of character things such as impersonating lazarus how....Deceptive... WHAT if the real Balthazar had been tricked in the FoW and is now sitting in chains there and the reason the other gods had decided Balthazar needed chained up in the mists due to his out of character actions was really Menzies impersonating Balthazar? it would explain how Balthazar the god of war is so easily defeated... I know that Abaddon was also killed by the player and stuff to but I mean Balthazar is and was considered one of the strongest gods. I think this could be an easy plot twist to set up an introduction to FoW in gw2 which I would absolutely love :D let me know what you think of this theory!

You're far from the first to suggest this, but Kormir pretty much confirms that Balthazar is Balthazar, as silly as the change of personality and childish mentality and reasoning for becoming evil is. But it'd be even sillier to have a plot be "Menzies pretends to be Balthazar pretending to be Lazarus", especially when he gets killed and there's not even a subtle hint to that end. On top of that, ArenaNet had stated time and time again that it was Balthazar, and if they were really to do some silly repetitive plot twist like this, it would have been revealed during Facing the Truth story instance, if not sooner.

On top of that, there are small suggestions in PoF that the Eternal Battle between Menzies and Balthazar had ended with Balthazar's victory, which would mean Menzies was either killed or imprisoned between games, most likely the former.

Also, it was Abaddon who was the strongest god, not Balthazar (Balthazar self-proclaimed himself as the strongest in PoF but that's brand new).

Well poop! it seemed like it would be neat :) I Loved Balthazar definitely one of my fav gods I wish Arenanet would focus more on the gods themselves Thanks for the response!

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:You're far from the first to suggest this, but Kormir pretty much confirms that Balthazar is Balthazar, as silly as the change of personality and childish mentality and reasoning for becoming evil is. But it'd be even sillier to have a plot be "Menzies pretends to be Balthazar pretending to be Lazarus", especially when he gets killed and there's not even a subtle hint to that end. On top of that, ArenaNet had stated time and time again that it was Balthazar, and if they were really to do some silly repetitive plot twist like this, it would have been revealed during Facing the Truth story instance, if not sooner.

On top of that, there are small suggestions in PoF that the Eternal Battle between Menzies and Balthazar had ended with Balthazar's victory, which would mean Menzies was either killed or imprisoned between games, most likely the former.

Also, it was Abaddon who was the strongest god, not Balthazar (Balthazar self-proclaimed himself as the strongest in PoF but that's brand new).

What is very interesting is that Balthazar in some aspect is “alive” in Aurene as stated in the last episode, when Balthazar’s sword goes to the last place that Aurene was.

Taimi: Whoa, hey, where's it going?Zafirah: It seeks Balthazar. Senses his magic. I don't understand... Balthazar was never here...

: But Aurene was.Zafirah: The sword perceives him... through her? Just who is this dragon of yours?Also Balthazar is a magical being, given his death scene. What is kinda curious, did Balthazar absorb the energy that Menzies had? We see that Aurene’s temperament change after absorbing Balthazar and Canach suggests as much as well. Might be the reason for Balthazar change in character from gw1 to Gw2.

@"Tyson.5160" said:What is very interesting is that Balthazar in some aspect is “alive” in Aurene as stated in the last episode, when Balthazar’s sword goes to the last place that Aurene was.

Taimi: Whoa, hey, where's it going?Zafirah: It seeks Balthazar. Senses his magic. I don't understand... Balthazar was never here...

: But Aurene was.Zafirah: The sword perceives him... through her? Just who is this dragon of yours?Also Balthazar is a magical being, given his death scene. What is kinda curious, did Balthazar absorb the energy that Menzies had? We see that Aurene’s temperament change after absorbing Balthazar and Canach suggests as much as well. Might be the reason for Balthazar change in character from gw1 to Gw2.

there was already some discussions about this (no links for that im still more of the lazy guy sorry)

it is stated in some situations that absorbing/ consuming beings also affect the one consuming (kormir/ abbadon incident, the "Coward" Story in sirens landing, some stuff about Dhuum)

this is not solid proofed but we can suggest, that if u consume a being / Soul that both of it merge and the stronger will overrules the other. regarding this it was possible in gw1 that abbadon was defeated but still won by being reborn from Kormir in defeating her mind from within. this was supported cuz dialogues offer that kormir is indeed abbadon (andmuch more) and the Coward that balth digested will now" be part of somethin great"

so the Coward is not strong enough to overthrow balth but kormir (with some help Blessings and whatsoever) were able to overcome the conciousness of abbadon.

as a sidenode in such an mind battle imo Magic power does not mean much cuz ist not the strength that Counts

__

now if we take this into our considerations it is possible, that balthasar won the battle vs menzies and swallowed him, even if he won the battle of minds through this the consumtion of menzies could still haave some Kind of effect on balthazar wich could be used to explain his turn in character.

Lot of "if" and speculations here but it can be made out of the few hints we got

Balthazar acted in the way he was depicted in Factions Lore: He was such a sore loser that his gesture of sportsmanship to Kaolai was considered rare! He of course was willing to fight the Elder Dragons especially since he ate a coward for being a coward so why wouldn't he reject refusing to fight the Elder Dragons out of perceived cowardice?

As for Deceivers: There are so many of those it's hard to keep track of. Balthazar only started to value Deception when the Gods dishonorably imprisoned him while Lyssa gave him a tool of Deception to help escape(possibly in hopes that his Honor would keep him from using it). Lyssa is to blame for Balthazar embracing Deception since it was thanks to her Mirror that he got out of his prison in the first place!

Desperation from years of imprisonment led to Balthazar using dishonorable means to escape prison and once he began to use them once it just got easier! Of course Balthazar's form of Deception is flawed compared to Menzies' as the Deceiver is the kind of person to make certain that the withheld piece of Lazarus would either be in his possession or would simply pose as another unknown Mursaat and revive Lazarus himself(and make Lazarus his right hand)!

The Mursaat writings found on the Ring of Fire Islands state that the Mursaat wanted to fight the Elder Dragons so Menzies could easily convince Lazarus to team up with him in battle against them and convince him of the use of subtle methods to get what he wants. Balthazar of course lacks such subtlety(and failed to research the guy he was impersonating) so he failed to account for Caduceus's piece of Lazarus and thus ended up dead at the Commander's hands!

this was great to read :) thanks guys ^_^ I didn't see any posts that's why I had said something :)

Balthazar in LS3 and PoF was definitely Balthazar. And assuming he followed the same path as Abbadon in terms of what happens when gods die, he probably can be considered well and truly dead. But there are still bits and pieces of Balthazar and/or his power still lingering around, since his death was relatively recent, he still has many active followers, and his power wasn't absorbed into a new god as Abbadon was by Kormir.

In fact, considering what happened when Abbadon died -- the creation of the Desolation, despite all the power that Kormir absorbed -- we should probably be thankful that Balthazar was not in his full godly state when he was killed, or it might have been "smoking crater" time for most of Vabbi.

Which brings up another point I've been wondering about: by now, a character played through the full story line has been exposed, in some cases very directly, to the energies released from the deaths of two Elder Dragons and a disempowered god, the return to sleep of another Elder Dragon (Primordus), the destruction and remains of a Bloodstone, the ends of a few other powerful entities like Lazarus and Joko, and a personal trip through death itself, among other things. I'm seriously starting to wonder what the effects of all this on our characters might be. Reflecting this, I've started to RP my main wearing Flamewalker armor and wielding the War God's Greatsword, with the Bloodstone eyes. His words: "You can't go through everything I have without being changed."

@"Jimbru.6014" said:

In fact, considering what happened when Abbadon died -- the creation of the Desolation, despite all the power that Kormir absorbed -- we should probably be thankful that Balthazar was not in his full godly state when he was killed, or it might have been "smoking crater" time for most of Vabbi.The Desolation was actually from Abaddon's first defeat, way back at year 0. So far as we know, the only lingering side effect his death had on Tyria was a few withered tendrils... well, that, and catching Primordus' attention.

Which brings up another point I've been wondering about: by now, a character played through the full story line has been exposed, in some cases very directly, to the energies released from the deaths of two Elder Dragons and a disempowered god, the return to sleep of another Elder Dragon (Primordus), the destruction and remains of a Bloodstone, the ends of a few other powerful entities like Lazarus and Joko, and a personal trip through death itself, among other things. I'm seriously starting to wonder what the effects of all this on our characters might be. Reflecting this, I've started to RP my main wearing Flamewalker armor and wielding the War God's Greatsword, with the Bloodstone eyes. His words: "You can't go through everything I have without being changed."

Out of curiosity, did you play through the Burden of Choice achievement?

Yes, I did. With all the loose plot ends and everything. I even still have the Reforged Shadowstone in my bank.

Heh. Yeah, I won't pretend it's a thorough answer.

nah, not coming back, he had his juice sucked dry by the other 5 gods, Krak and Aurene

as with Menzies, i dont record he was ever being a God like Abbadon and Dhumm, always referred to as Lord of Destructionas he is half brother, i speculate their papa or mama mated with a race outside their own, hence he was not borne into godhood and was weaker than Balthazar

Think of this kralkatorikk has begun acting bit like balthazar maybe balthazar is on controll of the dragon

Canach doesn't say Kralkatorrik has begun acting like Balthazar, just that Kralkatorrik has become more aggressive after eating Balthazar's magic. But every Elder Dragon becomes more aggressive after some time during their periods of being "active". Kralkatorrik's new aggressiveness is really just in comparison to his ten years of non-action. It's hard to say the aggressiveness began with Balthazar's death, or with Zhaitan's and Mordremoth's when Kralkatorrik flew south into Vabbi.

I doubt that Balthazar is controlling Kralkatorrik either way, whether or not the aggressiveness comes from Balthazar's magic specifically or just Kralkatorrik having a bunch more magic.

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Canach doesn't say Kralkatorrik has begun acting like Balthazar, just that Kralkatorrik has become more aggressive after eating Balthazar's magic. But every Elder Dragon becomes more aggressive after some time during their periods of being "active". Kralkatorrik's new aggressiveness is really just in comparison to his ten years of non-action. It's hard to say the aggressiveness began with Balthazar's death, or with Zhaitan's and Mordremoth's when Kralkatorrik flew south into Vabbi.

I doubt that Balthazar is controlling Kralkatorrik either way, whether or not the aggressiveness comes from Balthazar's magic specifically or just Kralkatorrik having a bunch more magic.

Not sure what references, they used, but There was a reference to this in Long live the Lich.

Canach: You know, I'd almost forgotten Aurene was a dragon. In my head, she was more of a person in dragon form.Canach: Of course, all...THIS...is certainly a...visceral reminder. I hate to ask this, but...Canach: Do you think she would have done this before she absorbed Balthazar's magic? Or could have?Canach: It does seem to have made Kralkatorrik more aggressive. And it certainly changed her SOMEHOW.

: She's still Aurene.Canach: Perhaps you're right. It's easy to forget: she's always been the granddaughter of an Elder Dragon.Canach: Maybe this is just what they do.It’s possible that it’s not Balthazar controlling, but perhaps some of his personality being absorbed by the dragon’s through his magic and essence.Now they aren’t saying how she has changed, but only that she has changed. Then you have what was mentioned by Zafirah.Zafirah: It seeks Balthazar. Senses his magic. I don't understand... Balthazar was never here...: But Aurene was.Zafirah: The sword perceives him... through her? Just who is this dragon of yours?

@"Laila Lightness.8742" said:Think of this kralkatorikk has begun acting bit like balthazar maybe balthazar is on controll of the dragon

It wouldn't be too surprising: they've foreshadowed it a couple of times -- both the forgotten and snaff tried to alter the dragon's base personality (though they failed). Stands to reason that someone with the juice to actually try to go toe to toe with the dragon, and whose "domain" is sort of related to certain personality traits, might have a better shot at making some changes to a draconic personality -- though unfortunately, not for the better, in Balthazar's case. Or, if it isn't Balthazar's persona controlling or altering the dragon, at least it might be "Conflict" energy.

If it was Balthazar's mind in control, or better yet, a hybrid of their minds/souls, it would certainly explain some things: why the dragon took a break (adapting to its new body or assembling a functional mind out of their gestalt existence), why it created the branded awakened (revenge, considering their role in the last battle), why it attacked Amnoon, Fahranur, etc. (the Commander was there, ie also revenge), and why it is heading into the Mists (find the Five and kick their behinds, ie also revenge -- but also, eat lots of magic).

@perilisk.1874 said:

@"Laila Lightness.8742" said:Think of this kralkatorikk has begun acting bit like balthazar maybe balthazar is on controll of the dragon

Also the dragons has not ever absorbed a god before

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:Also the dragons has not ever absorbed a god before

Before? Balthaddon? Balthaddon was not a god.

@Nogothanc.5014 said:

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:Also the dragons has not ever absorbed a god before

Abbadon died in the realm of torment outside of tyria there is probly a diffrence since abbadon himself was not in tyria. Balthazar how ever was in tyria. And unlike balthazar there was someone to absorb the magic directly with all its knowledge. So not much abbadon got out

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:

@Nogothanc.5014 said:

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:Also the dragons has not ever absorbed a god before

Yes, Balthaddon (Balthazar) was in Tyria. But as far as the story was presented he was not a god anymore. He was stripped of his power by the other gods. He was a powerful being but not a god. So as Balthaddon was killed there was no god magic to be released and that means no god magic to be absorbed by elder dragons.

@Nogothanc.5014 said:

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:

@Nogothanc.5014 said:

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:Also the dragons has not ever absorbed a god before

Dont change fact he was a divinity and had enough power on his own after all abbadon was still a god then he fell and was imprisoned not unlike balthazar. And by point he was still a god fallen but still a god by being but not one of the six anymore. Since abbadon was still considered a god

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:

@Nogothanc.5014 said:

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:

@Nogothanc.5014 said:

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:Also the dragons has not ever absorbed a god before

The main difference between them is that Abaddon appears to have been imprisoned with his power intact. Balthazar wasn't- he had to go through two convoluted schemes to get back to the level he was at in PoF, and even that was still well below what we've been led to believe an intact god is capable of.

(That said, even if the power wasn't there, the mind was. If Kralkatorrik managed to pick up some of that knowledge...)

@"Laila Lightness.8742" said:> Dont change fact he was a divinity and had enough power on his own after all abbadon was still a god then he fell and was imprisoned not unlike balthazar. And by point he was still a god fallen but still a god by being but not one of the six anymore. Since abbadon was still considered a god

Except that he was not divinity anymore.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Facing_the_Truth#In_the_Sanctum

Kormir: No. He isn't. Balthazar has been stripped of his claim and title. He is no longer one of the Six.[...]Kormir: We stripped him of his power, and chained him in the Mists. There he would remain, forever—powerless to carry out his plans.

Balthazar is, like Dhuum and unlike Abaddon, a former god. He was stripped of his power and his divinity, and then imprisoned. Abaddon, conversely, was imprisoned with his power sealed but not stripped.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"Laila Lightness.8742" said:> Dont change fact he was a divinity and had enough power on his own after all abbadon was still a god then he fell and was imprisoned not unlike balthazar. And by point he was still a god fallen but still a god by being but not one of the six anymore. Since abbadon was still considered a god

Kormir: No. He isn't. Balthazar has been stripped of his claim and title. He is no longer one of the Six.[...]Kormir: We stripped him of his power, and chained him in the Mists. There he would remain, forever—powerless to carry out his plans.

He must have kept some small portion of his original energy to stay alive though, perhaps going to his non god state, before he was the god of war, but still powerful Mist traveler, which would explain Kralkatorrik had the New Mist traversing abilities.

@Nogothanc.5014 said:

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:

@Nogothanc.5014 said:

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:Also the dragons has not ever absorbed a god before

It seems to be subtly hinted that Menzies was defeated by Balthazar. Perhaps the God of War killed Menzies, absorb some of his magic essence and inherited some of Menzies personality. With Menzies being Abaddon’s ally, they would share the same goals, which Balthazar appears following the same path.