Firebrand/scourge wars 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Firebrand/scourge wars 2

Who else is over this meta of red circles of death.

<1

Comments

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 22, 2018

    When I die its generally from being run over by the entire zerg while stunned - in which case their composition is irrelevant - or something taking all my hp, unseen and in an instant - in which case its usually an ele or rev. In particular smaller ~20 man guild fights its pretty much always the ele that carries them with meteor showers.

  • XECOR.2814XECOR.2814 Member ✭✭✭

    Rework scourge. Pls. Im necro main. I want to be able to go out of spawn alone.

  • @Dawdler.8521 said:
    When I die its generally from being run over by the entire zerg while stunned - in which case their composition is irrelevant - or something taking all my hp, unseen and in an instant - in which case its usually an ele or rev. In particular smaller ~20 man guild fights its pretty much always the ele that carries them with meteor showers.

    That's not true
    It's the comp Rev eles scourges that get supportet by the fb
    Good Rev can easy have the same dmg as a ele

  • Strider Pj.2193Strider Pj.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @XECOR.2814 said:
    Rework scourge. Pls. Im necro main. I want to be able to go out of spawn alone.

    Roll a ranger/Mesmer/thief/holo.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @DanAlcedo.3281 said:
    7/9 classes are meta in zerg figts.

    If the enemy only has Firebrands and scourges then he has no bubbles, no insane scrapper heals, no meteorshowers, no mesmer cc/veil/portal, no boons from rev.

    I take that enemy server any day.

    Scorge covers the boon strip and healing as well as aoe dmg and burst single targets and cc. FB covers the strong boons as well as healing and cc.

  • DanAlcedo.3281DanAlcedo.3281 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @DanAlcedo.3281 said:
    7/9 classes are meta in zerg figts.

    If the enemy only has Firebrands and scourges then he has no bubbles, no insane scrapper heals, no meteorshowers, no mesmer cc/veil/portal, no boons from rev.

    I take that enemy server any day.

    Scorge covers the boon strip and healing as well as aoe dmg and burst single targets and cc. FB covers the strong boons as well as healing and cc.

    Aaaaaaand your point is?

    So you are saying that a full zerg with only necros and guardians is better then one with all of the above?

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @DanAlcedo.3281 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @DanAlcedo.3281 said:
    7/9 classes are meta in zerg figts.

    If the enemy only has Firebrands and scourges then he has no bubbles, no insane scrapper heals, no meteorshowers, no mesmer cc/veil/portal, no boons from rev.

    I take that enemy server any day.

    Scorge covers the boon strip and healing as well as aoe dmg and burst single targets and cc. FB covers the strong boons as well as healing and cc.

    Aaaaaaand your point is?

    So you are saying that a full zerg with only necros and guardians is better then one with all of the above?

    Yes. And the zerg with less of the 2 classes are worst off. Its even worst with the rune/ sigil update pushing the meta more into the bunker meta where necros and guardians are both the bunker AND the counter to that bunker.

  • DanAlcedo.3281DanAlcedo.3281 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @DanAlcedo.3281 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @DanAlcedo.3281 said:
    7/9 classes are meta in zerg figts.

    If the enemy only has Firebrands and scourges then he has no bubbles, no insane scrapper heals, no meteorshowers, no mesmer cc/veil/portal, no boons from rev.

    I take that enemy server any day.

    Scorge covers the boon strip and healing as well as aoe dmg and burst single targets and cc. FB covers the strong boons as well as healing and cc.

    Aaaaaaand your point is?

    So you are saying that a full zerg with only necros and guardians is better then one with all of the above?

    Yes. And the zerg with less of the 2 classes are worst off. Its even worst with the rune/ sigil update pushing the meta more into the bunker meta where necros and guardians are both the bunker AND the counter to that bunker.

    Who would have guessed that a simple rune/sigil update would remove 5 classes from the WvW Meta.

  • Turkeyspit.3965Turkeyspit.3965 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @DanAlcedo.3281 said:
    7/9 classes are meta in zerg figts.

    If the enemy only has Firebrands and scourges then he has no bubbles, no insane scrapper heals, no meteorshowers, no mesmer cc/veil/portal, no boons from rev.

    I take that enemy server any day.

    Have to agree. Sure if anything is "missing" from the squad, inevitably the commander is asking for Firebrands, Scourge or Spellbreakers. But every squad I've played in for the past month (20-35 people) has included at least 2-3 Heralds (one of which is me), 70% of the time at least 1 Medi Scrapper, 2-3 Eles and 1-2 Mesmers. Thieves and Rangers are still not requested.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @DanAlcedo.3281 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @DanAlcedo.3281 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @DanAlcedo.3281 said:
    7/9 classes are meta in zerg figts.

    If the enemy only has Firebrands and scourges then he has no bubbles, no insane scrapper heals, no meteorshowers, no mesmer cc/veil/portal, no boons from rev.

    I take that enemy server any day.

    Scorge covers the boon strip and healing as well as aoe dmg and burst single targets and cc. FB covers the strong boons as well as healing and cc.

    Aaaaaaand your point is?

    So you are saying that a full zerg with only necros and guardians is better then one with all of the above?

    Yes. And the zerg with less of the 2 classes are worst off. Its even worst with the rune/ sigil update pushing the meta more into the bunker meta where necros and guardians are both the bunker AND the counter to that bunker.

    Who would have guessed that a simple rune/sigil update would remove 5 classes from the WvW Meta.

    Lol simple what world are you living in it sounds super nice. Any way the rune / sigil update only made it worst to a very stagnant meta of 2 classes.

  • morrolan.9608morrolan.9608 Member ✭✭✭

    I was over it a month into POF.

  • DanAlcedo.3281DanAlcedo.3281 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @DanAlcedo.3281 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @DanAlcedo.3281 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @DanAlcedo.3281 said:
    7/9 classes are meta in zerg figts.

    If the enemy only has Firebrands and scourges then he has no bubbles, no insane scrapper heals, no meteorshowers, no mesmer cc/veil/portal, no boons from rev.

    I take that enemy server any day.

    Scorge covers the boon strip and healing as well as aoe dmg and burst single targets and cc. FB covers the strong boons as well as healing and cc.

    Aaaaaaand your point is?

    So you are saying that a full zerg with only necros and guardians is better then one with all of the above?

    Yes. And the zerg with less of the 2 classes are worst off. Its even worst with the rune/ sigil update pushing the meta more into the bunker meta where necros and guardians are both the bunker AND the counter to that bunker.

    Who would have guessed that a simple rune/sigil update would remove 5 classes from the WvW Meta.

    Lol simple what world are you living in it sounds super nice. Any way the rune / sigil update only made it worst to a very stagnant meta of 2 classes.

    r/wooosh

  • Kaiser.9873Kaiser.9873 Member ✭✭✭

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @DanAlcedo.3281 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @DanAlcedo.3281 said:
    7/9 classes are meta in zerg figts.

    If the enemy only has Firebrands and scourges then he has no bubbles, no insane scrapper heals, no meteorshowers, no mesmer cc/veil/portal, no boons from rev.

    I take that enemy server any day.

    Scorge covers the boon strip and healing as well as aoe dmg and burst single targets and cc. FB covers the strong boons as well as healing and cc.

    Aaaaaaand your point is?

    So you are saying that a full zerg with only necros and guardians is better then one with all of the above?

    Yes. And the zerg with less of the 2 classes are worst off. Its even worst with the rune/ sigil update pushing the meta more into the bunker meta where necros and guardians are both the bunker AND the counter to that bunker.

    This is not right. Gotta have that heavy 1200 power bomb. That's something necro staff cannot provide. Rev/party and at least a couple weavers/squad are needed, or at least wanted. Haven't seen a pure Scourge/FB comp in the last several months, and even then there many SBs and a few revs mixed in. Most guild groups I'm seeing lately are running(or trying to run) FB, Scourge, power, power, SB as main party comp.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kaiser.9873 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @DanAlcedo.3281 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @DanAlcedo.3281 said:
    7/9 classes are meta in zerg figts.

    If the enemy only has Firebrands and scourges then he has no bubbles, no insane scrapper heals, no meteorshowers, no mesmer cc/veil/portal, no boons from rev.

    I take that enemy server any day.

    Scorge covers the boon strip and healing as well as aoe dmg and burst single targets and cc. FB covers the strong boons as well as healing and cc.

    Aaaaaaand your point is?

    So you are saying that a full zerg with only necros and guardians is better then one with all of the above?

    Yes. And the zerg with less of the 2 classes are worst off. Its even worst with the rune/ sigil update pushing the meta more into the bunker meta where necros and guardians are both the bunker AND the counter to that bunker.

    This is not right. Gotta have that heavy 1200 power bomb. That's something necro staff cannot provide. Rev/party and at least a couple weavers/squad are needed, or at least wanted. Haven't seen a pure Scourge/FB comp in the last several months, and even then there many SBs and a few revs mixed in. Most guild groups I'm seeing lately are running(or trying to run) FB, Scourge, power, power, SB as main party comp.

    Few things scourge is not just a staff using class it very well can do high dmg all be it limented on number of targets with axe as well as getting good aoe dmg from its shade skill. FB effectually cover all other needs for support.

    Yes ppl do use other classes to free up scorges and FB to fill there rolls better but you do not need them for classes in them self you need the other classes as pure gear and "wepon attk types" so in a way you DO have 2 classes only comps of scorge and FB and the "other" is not a real class its a filler. I am not one to call pink slime a type of meat but it sure used to hold meat together.

  • DanAlcedo.3281DanAlcedo.3281 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 23, 2018

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Kaiser.9873 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @DanAlcedo.3281 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @DanAlcedo.3281 said:
    7/9 classes are meta in zerg figts.

    If the enemy only has Firebrands and scourges then he has no bubbles, no insane scrapper heals, no meteorshowers, no mesmer cc/veil/portal, no boons from rev.

    I take that enemy server any day.

    Scorge covers the boon strip and healing as well as aoe dmg and burst single targets and cc. FB covers the strong boons as well as healing and cc.

    Aaaaaaand your point is?

    So you are saying that a full zerg with only necros and guardians is better then one with all of the above?

    Yes. And the zerg with less of the 2 classes are worst off. Its even worst with the rune/ sigil update pushing the meta more into the bunker meta where necros and guardians are both the bunker AND the counter to that bunker.

    This is not right. Gotta have that heavy 1200 power bomb. That's something necro staff cannot provide. Rev/party and at least a couple weavers/squad are needed, or at least wanted. Haven't seen a pure Scourge/FB comp in the last several months, and even then there many SBs and a few revs mixed in. Most guild groups I'm seeing lately are running(or trying to run) FB, Scourge, power, power, SB as main party comp.

    Few things scourge is not just a staff using class it very well can do high dmg all be it limented on number of targets with axe as well as getting good aoe dmg from its shade skill. FB effectually cover all other needs for support.

    Yes ppl do use other classes to free up scorges and FB to fill there rolls better but you do not need them for classes in them self you need the other classes as pure gear and "wepon attk types" so in a way you DO have 2 classes only comps of scorge and FB and the "other" is not a real class its a filler. I am not one to call pink slime a type of meat but it sure used to hold meat together.

    I think we reached a point where both sides will never agree, so the best way to solve it is ingame proff.

    Its reset day today so how about we post the squad setup from the reset night.

    Maybe i can get a pic from multiple maps.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @DanAlcedo.3281 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Kaiser.9873 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @DanAlcedo.3281 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @DanAlcedo.3281 said:
    7/9 classes are meta in zerg figts.

    If the enemy only has Firebrands and scourges then he has no bubbles, no insane scrapper heals, no meteorshowers, no mesmer cc/veil/portal, no boons from rev.

    I take that enemy server any day.

    Scorge covers the boon strip and healing as well as aoe dmg and burst single targets and cc. FB covers the strong boons as well as healing and cc.

    Aaaaaaand your point is?

    So you are saying that a full zerg with only necros and guardians is better then one with all of the above?

    Yes. And the zerg with less of the 2 classes are worst off. Its even worst with the rune/ sigil update pushing the meta more into the bunker meta where necros and guardians are both the bunker AND the counter to that bunker.

    This is not right. Gotta have that heavy 1200 power bomb. That's something necro staff cannot provide. Rev/party and at least a couple weavers/squad are needed, or at least wanted. Haven't seen a pure Scourge/FB comp in the last several months, and even then there many SBs and a few revs mixed in. Most guild groups I'm seeing lately are running(or trying to run) FB, Scourge, power, power, SB as main party comp.

    Few things scourge is not just a staff using class it very well can do high dmg all be it limented on number of targets with axe as well as getting good aoe dmg from its shade skill. FB effectually cover all other needs for support.

    Yes ppl do use other classes to free up scorges and FB to fill there rolls better but you do not need them for classes in them self you need the other classes as pure gear and "wepon attk types" so in a way you DO have 2 classes only comps of scorge and FB and the "other" is not a real class its a filler. I am not one to call pink slime a type of meat but it sure used to hold meat together.

    I think we reached a point where both sides will never agree, so the best way to solve it is ingame proff.

    Its reset day today so how about we post the squad setup from the reset night.

    Maybe i can get a pic from multiple maps.

    We are talking in hyperbole-ism for sure but i am one to try to hold to the other side point of logic or will be we like talking to a wall.

    The problem is you cant realty play wvw with out these 2 classes but you can play wvw with out all of the other classes its a real problem.

    Its not a real problem right now as you cant kick ppl from wvw who do not play the right classes you can kick them from group. The thing is the game wvw is about to become group only aimed in effectually you CAN start to kick ppl from worlds who are not running the right classes. Turning your head when you see 1 or 3 non meta classes in a group as every thing being good is foolish and dooming a lot of ppl from very bad wvw game play and over all making wvw more and more toxic.

    This IS a problem anet not going to do any thing about it if ppl do not say its a problem. The problem only going to get worst and WILL kill off wvw as a viable game type.

  • DanAlcedo.3281DanAlcedo.3281 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @DanAlcedo.3281 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Kaiser.9873 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @DanAlcedo.3281 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @DanAlcedo.3281 said:
    7/9 classes are meta in zerg figts.

    If the enemy only has Firebrands and scourges then he has no bubbles, no insane scrapper heals, no meteorshowers, no mesmer cc/veil/portal, no boons from rev.

    I take that enemy server any day.

    Scorge covers the boon strip and healing as well as aoe dmg and burst single targets and cc. FB covers the strong boons as well as healing and cc.

    Aaaaaaand your point is?

    So you are saying that a full zerg with only necros and guardians is better then one with all of the above?

    Yes. And the zerg with less of the 2 classes are worst off. Its even worst with the rune/ sigil update pushing the meta more into the bunker meta where necros and guardians are both the bunker AND the counter to that bunker.

    This is not right. Gotta have that heavy 1200 power bomb. That's something necro staff cannot provide. Rev/party and at least a couple weavers/squad are needed, or at least wanted. Haven't seen a pure Scourge/FB comp in the last several months, and even then there many SBs and a few revs mixed in. Most guild groups I'm seeing lately are running(or trying to run) FB, Scourge, power, power, SB as main party comp.

    Few things scourge is not just a staff using class it very well can do high dmg all be it limented on number of targets with axe as well as getting good aoe dmg from its shade skill. FB effectually cover all other needs for support.

    Yes ppl do use other classes to free up scorges and FB to fill there rolls better but you do not need them for classes in them self you need the other classes as pure gear and "wepon attk types" so in a way you DO have 2 classes only comps of scorge and FB and the "other" is not a real class its a filler. I am not one to call pink slime a type of meat but it sure used to hold meat together.

    I think we reached a point where both sides will never agree, so the best way to solve it is ingame proff.

    Its reset day today so how about we post the squad setup from the reset night.

    Maybe i can get a pic from multiple maps.

    We are talking in hyperbole-ism for sure but i am one to try to hold to the other side point of logic or will be we like talking to a wall.

    The problem is you cant realty play wvw with out these 2 classes but you can play wvw with out all of the other classes its a real problem.

    Its not a real problem right now as you cant kick ppl from wvw who do not play the right classes you can kick them from group. The thing is the game wvw is about to become group only aimed in effectually you CAN start to kick ppl from worlds who are not running the right classes. Turning your head when you see 1 or 3 non meta classes in a group as every thing being good is foolish and dooming a lot of ppl from very bad wvw game play and over all making wvw more and more toxic.

    This IS a problem anet not going to do any thing about it if ppl do not say its a problem. The problem only going to get worst and WILL kill off wvw as a viable game type.

    Sure. In the alliance system scenario this can become a problem.

    But i doubt that this will happen on a large scale.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @DanAlcedo.3281 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @DanAlcedo.3281 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Kaiser.9873 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @DanAlcedo.3281 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @DanAlcedo.3281 said:
    7/9 classes are meta in zerg figts.

    If the enemy only has Firebrands and scourges then he has no bubbles, no insane scrapper heals, no meteorshowers, no mesmer cc/veil/portal, no boons from rev.

    I take that enemy server any day.

    Scorge covers the boon strip and healing as well as aoe dmg and burst single targets and cc. FB covers the strong boons as well as healing and cc.

    Aaaaaaand your point is?

    So you are saying that a full zerg with only necros and guardians is better then one with all of the above?

    Yes. And the zerg with less of the 2 classes are worst off. Its even worst with the rune/ sigil update pushing the meta more into the bunker meta where necros and guardians are both the bunker AND the counter to that bunker.

    This is not right. Gotta have that heavy 1200 power bomb. That's something necro staff cannot provide. Rev/party and at least a couple weavers/squad are needed, or at least wanted. Haven't seen a pure Scourge/FB comp in the last several months, and even then there many SBs and a few revs mixed in. Most guild groups I'm seeing lately are running(or trying to run) FB, Scourge, power, power, SB as main party comp.

    Few things scourge is not just a staff using class it very well can do high dmg all be it limented on number of targets with axe as well as getting good aoe dmg from its shade skill. FB effectually cover all other needs for support.

    Yes ppl do use other classes to free up scorges and FB to fill there rolls better but you do not need them for classes in them self you need the other classes as pure gear and "wepon attk types" so in a way you DO have 2 classes only comps of scorge and FB and the "other" is not a real class its a filler. I am not one to call pink slime a type of meat but it sure used to hold meat together.

    I think we reached a point where both sides will never agree, so the best way to solve it is ingame proff.

    Its reset day today so how about we post the squad setup from the reset night.

    Maybe i can get a pic from multiple maps.

    We are talking in hyperbole-ism for sure but i am one to try to hold to the other side point of logic or will be we like talking to a wall.

    The problem is you cant realty play wvw with out these 2 classes but you can play wvw with out all of the other classes its a real problem.

    Its not a real problem right now as you cant kick ppl from wvw who do not play the right classes you can kick them from group. The thing is the game wvw is about to become group only aimed in effectually you CAN start to kick ppl from worlds who are not running the right classes. Turning your head when you see 1 or 3 non meta classes in a group as every thing being good is foolish and dooming a lot of ppl from very bad wvw game play and over all making wvw more and more toxic.

    This IS a problem anet not going to do any thing about it if ppl do not say its a problem. The problem only going to get worst and WILL kill off wvw as a viable game type.

    Sure. In the alliance system scenario this can become a problem.

    But i doubt that this will happen on a large scale.

    Well that the thing alliance kills large scale in favor of smaller. That the point of the system change.

  • Zero.3871Zero.3871 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 23, 2018

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @DanAlcedo.3281 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Kaiser.9873 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @DanAlcedo.3281 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @DanAlcedo.3281 said:
    7/9 classes are meta in zerg figts.

    If the enemy only has Firebrands and scourges then he has no bubbles, no insane scrapper heals, no meteorshowers, no mesmer cc/veil/portal, no boons from rev.

    I take that enemy server any day.

    Scorge covers the boon strip and healing as well as aoe dmg and burst single targets and cc. FB covers the strong boons as well as healing and cc.

    Aaaaaaand your point is?

    So you are saying that a full zerg with only necros and guardians is better then one with all of the above?

    Yes. And the zerg with less of the 2 classes are worst off. Its even worst with the rune/ sigil update pushing the meta more into the bunker meta where necros and guardians are both the bunker AND the counter to that bunker.

    This is not right. Gotta have that heavy 1200 power bomb. That's something necro staff cannot provide. Rev/party and at least a couple weavers/squad are needed, or at least wanted. Haven't seen a pure Scourge/FB comp in the last several months, and even then there many SBs and a few revs mixed in. Most guild groups I'm seeing lately are running(or trying to run) FB, Scourge, power, power, SB as main party comp.

    Few things scourge is not just a staff using class it very well can do high dmg all be it limented on number of targets with axe as well as getting good aoe dmg from its shade skill. FB effectually cover all other needs for support.

    Yes ppl do use other classes to free up scorges and FB to fill there rolls better but you do not need them for classes in them self you need the other classes as pure gear and "wepon attk types" so in a way you DO have 2 classes only comps of scorge and FB and the "other" is not a real class its a filler. I am not one to call pink slime a type of meat but it sure used to hold meat together.

    I think we reached a point where both sides will never agree, so the best way to solve it is ingame proff.

    Its reset day today so how about we post the squad setup from the reset night.

    Maybe i can get a pic from multiple maps.

    We are talking in hyperbole-ism for sure but i am one to try to hold to the other side point of logic or will be we like talking to a wall.

    The problem is you cant realty play wvw with out these 2 classes but you can play wvw with out all of the other classes its a real problem.

    Its not a real problem right now as you cant kick ppl from wvw who do not play the right classes you can kick them from group. The thing is the game wvw is about to become group only aimed in effectually you CAN start to kick ppl from worlds who are not running the right classes. Turning your head when you see 1 or 3 non meta classes in a group as every thing being good is foolish and dooming a lot of ppl from very bad wvw game play and over all making wvw more and more toxic.

    This IS a problem anet not going to do any thing about it if ppl do not say its a problem. The problem only going to get worst and WILL kill off wvw as a viable game type.

    to be fair. scourge is an only Group fight class. if you roam you will see 30 rangers, 30 mesmers, 30 thiefes, 1 scourge. also its simply not true that the fraction with more FB/scourges easily win. i have seen many FB/Scourge combs that get steamrolled by better combs.

    e.g. 10 FB + 15 Scourge + 10 Rev + 5 ele + 7-8 SB + 2-3 mesmer in 50 men zergs. this comb is way better than only FB/Scourge because revs and eles have better range and dmg than scourge. just 1 SB already can decide a whole zergfight with his WoD.

    a class that can ONLY GROUPFIGHTS and nearly never seen in roaming (and roaming is also an important part of wvw, even if some People like to hide this fact) is fine with 15 out of 50.

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 23, 2018

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @DanAlcedo.3281 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @DanAlcedo.3281 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Kaiser.9873 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @DanAlcedo.3281 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @DanAlcedo.3281 said:
    7/9 classes are meta in zerg figts.

    If the enemy only has Firebrands and scourges then he has no bubbles, no insane scrapper heals, no meteorshowers, no mesmer cc/veil/portal, no boons from rev.

    I take that enemy server any day.

    Scorge covers the boon strip and healing as well as aoe dmg and burst single targets and cc. FB covers the strong boons as well as healing and cc.

    Aaaaaaand your point is?

    So you are saying that a full zerg with only necros and guardians is better then one with all of the above?

    Yes. And the zerg with less of the 2 classes are worst off. Its even worst with the rune/ sigil update pushing the meta more into the bunker meta where necros and guardians are both the bunker AND the counter to that bunker.

    This is not right. Gotta have that heavy 1200 power bomb. That's something necro staff cannot provide. Rev/party and at least a couple weavers/squad are needed, or at least wanted. Haven't seen a pure Scourge/FB comp in the last several months, and even then there many SBs and a few revs mixed in. Most guild groups I'm seeing lately are running(or trying to run) FB, Scourge, power, power, SB as main party comp.

    Few things scourge is not just a staff using class it very well can do high dmg all be it limented on number of targets with axe as well as getting good aoe dmg from its shade skill. FB effectually cover all other needs for support.

    Yes ppl do use other classes to free up scorges and FB to fill there rolls better but you do not need them for classes in them self you need the other classes as pure gear and "wepon attk types" so in a way you DO have 2 classes only comps of scorge and FB and the "other" is not a real class its a filler. I am not one to call pink slime a type of meat but it sure used to hold meat together.

    I think we reached a point where both sides will never agree, so the best way to solve it is ingame proff.

    Its reset day today so how about we post the squad setup from the reset night.

    Maybe i can get a pic from multiple maps.

    We are talking in hyperbole-ism for sure but i am one to try to hold to the other side point of logic or will be we like talking to a wall.

    The problem is you cant realty play wvw with out these 2 classes but you can play wvw with out all of the other classes its a real problem.

    Its not a real problem right now as you cant kick ppl from wvw who do not play the right classes you can kick them from group. The thing is the game wvw is about to become group only aimed in effectually you CAN start to kick ppl from worlds who are not running the right classes. Turning your head when you see 1 or 3 non meta classes in a group as every thing being good is foolish and dooming a lot of ppl from very bad wvw game play and over all making wvw more and more toxic.

    This IS a problem anet not going to do any thing about it if ppl do not say its a problem. The problem only going to get worst and WILL kill off wvw as a viable game type.

    Sure. In the alliance system scenario this can become a problem.

    But i doubt that this will happen on a large scale.

    Well that the thing alliance kills large scale in favor of smaller. That the point of the system change.

    No it isnt but thats really not relevant to the thread I think.

    The thing with the class reliance in the zerg is... does it ultimately matter what classes we are talking about? Just like high end roaming, high end zerging will always be optimized to a few options. If you "balance" out the scourge, another class will replace it. Same for guard. People pick whats most effective.

    Personally, I just see them as the basic foot soldier. Gonna have alot of them in the army. But you're also gonna have specialists that are rarer, but highly dangerous at what they do.

    And tbh I'd rather not have those specialists become common. I like being special compared to all those those common fb and scourges grunts.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @DanAlcedo.3281 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @DanAlcedo.3281 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Kaiser.9873 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @DanAlcedo.3281 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @DanAlcedo.3281 said:
    7/9 classes are meta in zerg figts.

    If the enemy only has Firebrands and scourges then he has no bubbles, no insane scrapper heals, no meteorshowers, no mesmer cc/veil/portal, no boons from rev.

    I take that enemy server any day.

    Scorge covers the boon strip and healing as well as aoe dmg and burst single targets and cc. FB covers the strong boons as well as healing and cc.

    Aaaaaaand your point is?

    So you are saying that a full zerg with only necros and guardians is better then one with all of the above?

    Yes. And the zerg with less of the 2 classes are worst off. Its even worst with the rune/ sigil update pushing the meta more into the bunker meta where necros and guardians are both the bunker AND the counter to that bunker.

    This is not right. Gotta have that heavy 1200 power bomb. That's something necro staff cannot provide. Rev/party and at least a couple weavers/squad are needed, or at least wanted. Haven't seen a pure Scourge/FB comp in the last several months, and even then there many SBs and a few revs mixed in. Most guild groups I'm seeing lately are running(or trying to run) FB, Scourge, power, power, SB as main party comp.

    Few things scourge is not just a staff using class it very well can do high dmg all be it limented on number of targets with axe as well as getting good aoe dmg from its shade skill. FB effectually cover all other needs for support.

    Yes ppl do use other classes to free up scorges and FB to fill there rolls better but you do not need them for classes in them self you need the other classes as pure gear and "wepon attk types" so in a way you DO have 2 classes only comps of scorge and FB and the "other" is not a real class its a filler. I am not one to call pink slime a type of meat but it sure used to hold meat together.

    I think we reached a point where both sides will never agree, so the best way to solve it is ingame proff.

    Its reset day today so how about we post the squad setup from the reset night.

    Maybe i can get a pic from multiple maps.

    We are talking in hyperbole-ism for sure but i am one to try to hold to the other side point of logic or will be we like talking to a wall.

    The problem is you cant realty play wvw with out these 2 classes but you can play wvw with out all of the other classes its a real problem.

    Its not a real problem right now as you cant kick ppl from wvw who do not play the right classes you can kick them from group. The thing is the game wvw is about to become group only aimed in effectually you CAN start to kick ppl from worlds who are not running the right classes. Turning your head when you see 1 or 3 non meta classes in a group as every thing being good is foolish and dooming a lot of ppl from very bad wvw game play and over all making wvw more and more toxic.

    This IS a problem anet not going to do any thing about it if ppl do not say its a problem. The problem only going to get worst and WILL kill off wvw as a viable game type.

    Sure. In the alliance system scenario this can become a problem.

    But i doubt that this will happen on a large scale.

    Well that the thing alliance kills large scale in favor of smaller. That the point of the system change.

    No it isnt but thats really not relevant to the thread I think.

    The thing with the class reliance in the zerg is... does it ultimately matter what classes we are talking about? Just like high end roaming, high end zerging will always be optimized to a few options. If you "balance" out the scourge, another class will replace it. Same for guard. People pick whats most effective.

    Personally, I just see them as the basic foot soldier. Gonna have alot of them in the army. But you're also gonna have specialists that are rarer, but highly dangerous at what they do.

    And tbh I'd rather not have those specialists become common. I like being special compared to all those those common fb and scourges grunts.

    That very wrong. The new systom is about making groups able to play togeater this gives ppl more power to demand out of other ppl. Yes there will be randoms but offten they will be nothing more then random npc to most major groups.

    The chose of these classes is because other classes cant do any of these effects at all or at least on the scale they can. Scorge has the mix of dmg support (10 targets) as well as boon corruption. You find most classes have to chose between support and dmg and the ability to deal with boons but scorge dose not and its doing this in a way that it self support and hits max numbers of targets. If you gave other classes any of these effect ontop of what they have now you would still see scorges but you would also see the other classes as well. You can say the same for FB it is the end all be all stab support and it is the ONLY real stab support in the game ontop of that. 1 stack of stab dose not cut it for any thing and in no way is viable for any type of self or group support. If you gave other classe some stab support (more then just 1 stack) you would see other classes fill in rolls of FB but not comply push it out of the meta.

    The best example is the core classes of gurd and necro there where very much meta to the game but they only just generated effects needed for wvw so not every one played as these 2 classes and there was very much room for lesser boons support / healing support as well as the counters to such support. Once FB and scorge was added to the game it comply tipped balancing of how ppl played the game and was become needed to have a viable group in wvw. FB and scorge has only made the game far worst then made it better and it would be better on every one even the players of these classes if they where never added in.

    That the problem right now only a few classes have compel use of much needed effects and all other classes dont. If you do nothing to bring other classes some what to the level of these 2 classes your simply going to kick ppl from playing with groups in wvw altogether. This is all on Anet both balancing and borderline foolishness of how groups work and how control of ppl with in thoughts groups work.

  • enkidu.5937enkidu.5937 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 23, 2018

    @Jski.6180 said:
    The problem is you cant realty play wvw with out these 2 classes but you can play wvw with out all of the other classes its a real problem.

    Its not a real problem right now as you cant kick ppl from wvw who do not play the right classes you can kick them from group. The thing is the game wvw is about to become group only aimed in effectually you CAN start to kick ppl from worlds who are not running the right classes. Turning your head when you see 1 or 3 non meta classes in a group as every thing being good is foolish and dooming a lot of ppl from very bad wvw game play and over all making wvw more and more toxic.

    This IS a problem anet not going to do any thing about it if ppl do not say its a problem. The problem only going to get worst and WILL kill off wvw as a viable game type.

    Honestly, I won't expect much differences. Atm, meta-only ppl cannot kick casuals, except from the squad, that's true. But they already can make a lot of casuals leave the zerg / map / WvW by throwing constant toxicity at them.

    Often, the result is, that the meta-onlies also ruin their own game experience, as well, because casuals that were kicked or offended refuse to scout / flip camps / bloodlust etc. And without those casuals, also the size of the zerg often drops to 30ish. Battles are then lost due to the sheer lack in numbers, and enemies digging in to T3 structures, that would normally have held at low tier by casual roamers or K-trains. Nonetheless, those commanders continue to claim, that zerg meta is the only way to win.

    With the introduction of alliances, it will only become easier for them, to keep their playground clear. If a meta-only fight alliance lacks in the open field scout / camp flip / bloodlust / map coverage department, Anet will help them out with a second alliance, that fills this gap, and a pocket full of random players. That's true, but those meta-onlies will still be toxic to their linked teammates, and the outcome will be the same as now, I guess.

    We will still have ppl, that only have fun if everyone is playing "their" meta, that they claim to be the only way to go, because "WvW is competitive" (even if it's not, hello server linking), "meta wins" (even though one can see, that meta-fixation often leads to a lack in numbers, and consequently defeats), "casuals are not willing to compromise", "non-meta builds are always bad for the zerg", "switching to a meta-build is always good for the zerg" etc. . . And it just turned out, that they are also not playing for the win, in the first place, but for their own definition of fun.

    Fortunatelly, this is a minority. Most commanders, that I know are compromising a lot (* EDIT: not sure about the correct wording: I mean "doing trade-offs") , are realizing, that in most situation manpower is an important factor, and that casuals are a precious "ressource" these days, if you want to win fights and match-up's. I hope, that alliances and randoms will be allowed to create a block list "Don't want to be linked to alliance XY." :)

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @enkidu.5937 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    The problem is you cant realty play wvw with out these 2 classes but you can play wvw with out all of the other classes its a real problem.

    Its not a real problem right now as you cant kick ppl from wvw who do not play the right classes you can kick them from group. The thing is the game wvw is about to become group only aimed in effectually you CAN start to kick ppl from worlds who are not running the right classes. Turning your head when you see 1 or 3 non meta classes in a group as every thing being good is foolish and dooming a lot of ppl from very bad wvw game play and over all making wvw more and more toxic.

    This IS a problem anet not going to do any thing about it if ppl do not say its a problem. The problem only going to get worst and WILL kill off wvw as a viable game type.

    Honestly, I won't expect much differences. Atm, meta-only ppl cannot kick casuals, except from the squad, that's true. But they already can make a lot of casuals leave the zerg / map / WvW by throwing constant toxicity at them.

    Often, the result is, that the meta-onlies also ruin their own game experience, as well, because casuals that were kicked or offended refuse to scout / flip camps / bloodlust etc. And without those casuals, also the size of the zerg often drops to 30ish. Battles are then lost due to the sheer lack in numbers, and enemies digging in to T3 structures, that would normally have held at low tier by casual roamers or K-trains. Nonetheless, those commanders continue to claim, that zerg meta is the only way to win.

    With the introduction of alliances, it will only become easier for them, to keep their playground clear. If a meta-only fight alliance lacks in the open field scout / camp flip / bloodlust / map coverage department, Anet will help them out with a second alliance, that fills this gap, and a pocket full of random players. That's true, but those meta-onlies will still be toxic to their linked teammates, and the outcome will be the same as now, I guess.

    We will still have ppl, that only have fun if everyone is playing "their" meta, that they claim to be the only way to go, because "WvW is competitive" (even if it's not, hello server linking), "meta wins" (even though one can see, that meta-fixation often leads to a lack in numbers, and consequently defeats), "casuals are not willing to compromise", "non-meta builds are always bad for the zerg", "switching to a meta-build is always good for the zerg" etc. . . And it just turned out, that they, are also not playing for the win, in the first place, but for their own definition of fun.

    Fortunatelly, this is a minority. Most commanders, that I know are compromising a lot, are realizing, that in most situation manpower is an important factor, and that casuals are a precious "ressource" these days, if you want to win fights and match-up's. I hope, that alliances and randoms will be allowed to create a block list "Don't want to be linked to alliance XY." :)

    That sounds nice finding your way as a non meta player (out side of these 2 classes) but it dose not last and will only lead to pain and ultimate quitting of gw2 and the effectually player base of wvw over all. That why these things MUST be balanced to where we cant have 2 classes coving every thing needed for a group the effects must be spread out. (Truth be told anet game director needs to look at the devs who made these classes and REMOVE them from these classes over all and put them some where else as they cant be bothered with balanced skills over all to the game).

    Its going to get realty bad fast and you will see massive population falls. You already seen it with each add on to the "dev liked" classes but soon they will be no hiding from the oppression of the best.

  • enkidu.5937enkidu.5937 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 23, 2018

    @Jski.6180 said:
    That sounds nice finding your way as a non meta player (out side of these 2 classes) but it dose not last and will only lead to pain and ultimate quitting of gw2 and the effectually player base of wvw over all. That why these things MUST be balanced to where we cant have 2 classes coving every thing needed for a group the effects must be spread out. (Truth be told anet game director needs to look at the devs who made these classes and REMOVE them from these classes over all and put them some where else as they cant be bothered with balanced skills over all to the game).

    Its going to get realty bad fast and you will see massive population falls. You already seen it with each add on to the "dev liked" classes but soon they will be no hiding from the oppression of the best.

    I totally agree on that, don't get me wrong. That current lack in balance is not healthy, and partially forces commanders to do things, they don't even want to do: preferring such classes, to keep the more ambitious fraction of their zerg happy and at the flag.

  • Nimon.7840Nimon.7840 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @DanAlcedo.3281 said:
    7/9 classes are meta in zerg figts.

    If the enemy only has Firebrands and scourges then he has no bubbles, no insane scrapper heals, no meteorshowers, no mesmer cc/veil/portal, no boons from rev.

    I take that enemy server any day.

    Scorge covers the boon strip and healing as well as aoe dmg and burst single targets and cc. FB covers the strong boons as well as healing and cc.

    But you loose all the damage from revs.

    People keep complaining about scourges in wvw. Even though scourge isn't the damage dealer in zergs right now.
    Even if you play full grieving, every rev should outdamage you.

    The problem is. That most people see their buff/debuff bar. See 5 conditions from scourge: vulnerability, 1stack bleed, 1 stack torment, 1 stack burn, and cripple
    But they don't notice the revs hitting them for 10k

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Nimon.7840 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @DanAlcedo.3281 said:
    7/9 classes are meta in zerg figts.

    If the enemy only has Firebrands and scourges then he has no bubbles, no insane scrapper heals, no meteorshowers, no mesmer cc/veil/portal, no boons from rev.

    I take that enemy server any day.

    Scorge covers the boon strip and healing as well as aoe dmg and burst single targets and cc. FB covers the strong boons as well as healing and cc.

    But you loose all the damage from revs.

    People keep complaining about scourges in wvw. Even though scourge isn't the damage dealer in zergs right now.
    Even if you play full grieving, every rev should outdamage you.

    The problem is. That most people see their buff/debuff bar. See 5 conditions from scourge: vulnerability, 1stack bleed, 1 stack torment, 1 stack burn, and cripple
    But they don't notice the revs hitting them for 10k

    Where are you getting your numbers and what is it realy reading? DPS meters are very unreliability unless its same class vs same class or your self vs your self because there a lot of info that left out. Not being able to slip up dmg vs players npc down and up states vs boons vs barrier vs healing gives you are very bad ideal of what going on in a fight. Revs do burst dmg or dmg that you cant tell is coming (often due to culling of effects) that may be needed to push ppl that one step over but its the scorge who is putting in consistent effects of dmg condi and boon counters that puts ppl in that state. Relay any class or any thing can fill that revs last push and that has less to do with a class and more to do with gear. In a way its become the filler class of zerker dmg.

    I leave every one with this set of ideal (not aimed at you personally Nimon more everyone on the forms).

    Scorge and FB are way over powered in effects so much so that they crate an environment that only Scorge and FB are out right required to play.

    Other classes are more of less pure gear classes and lose all ideintly they are simply fillers.

    Its becoming a problem in wvw now for being let into groups and it will be a much bigger problem with the new wvw system to come.

    This is not what GW2 is for this is not how you should be playing or making others play GW2. This is an abomination of GW2 and its all on Anet at every level.

    I given the problem reason and what will happen if nothing is done.

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 23, 2018

    @Jski.6180 said:
    Once FB and scorge was added to the game it comply tipped balancing of how ppl played the game and was become needed to have a viable group in wvw. FB and scorge has only made the game far worst then made it better and it would be better on every one even the players of these classes if they where never added in.

    And before the fb and scourge, the guardian and reaper dominated zergs (dh standing sad in a corner). And before that the guardian and necro was the baseline.

    Otherwise we're walking in the same shoes as 2012. How is the fb+scourge dominance different from the guard+necro dominance?

  • Voltekka.2375Voltekka.2375 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Nimon.7840 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @DanAlcedo.3281 said:
    7/9 classes are meta in zerg figts.

    If the enemy only has Firebrands and scourges then he has no bubbles, no insane scrapper heals, no meteorshowers, no mesmer cc/veil/portal, no boons from rev.

    I take that enemy server any day.

    Scorge covers the boon strip and healing as well as aoe dmg and burst single targets and cc. FB covers the strong boons as well as healing and cc.

    But you loose all the damage from revs.

    People keep complaining about scourges in wvw. Even though scourge isn't the damage dealer in zergs right now.
    Even if you play full grieving, every rev should outdamage you.

    The problem is. That most people see their buff/debuff bar. See 5 conditions from scourge: vulnerability, 1stack bleed, 1 stack torment, 1 stack burn, and cripple
    But they don't notice the revs hitting them for 10k

    Where are you getting your numbers and what is it realy reading? DPS meters are very unreliability unless its same class vs same class or your self vs your self because there a lot of info that left out. Not being able to slip up dmg vs players npc down and up states vs boons vs barrier vs healing gives you are very bad ideal of what going on in a fight. Revs do burst dmg or dmg that you cant tell is coming (often due to culling of effects) that may be needed to push ppl that one step over but its the scorge who is putting in consistent effects of dmg condi and boon counters that puts ppl in that state. Relay any class or any thing can fill that revs last push and that has less to do with a class and more to do with gear. In a way its become the filler class of zerker dmg.

    I leave every one with this set of ideal (not aimed at you personally Nimon more everyone on the forms).

    Scorge and FB are way over powered in effects so much so that they crate an environment that only Scorge and FB are out right required to play.

    Other classes are more of less pure gear classes and lose all ideintly they are simply fillers.

    Its becoming a problem in wvw now for being let into groups and it will be a much bigger problem with the new wvw system to come.

    This is not what GW2 is for this is not how you should be playing or making others play GW2. This is an abomination of GW2 and its all on Anet at every level.

    I given the problem reason and what will happen if nothing is done.

    "dps meters are very unreliable" NO theyre not. Actually, theyre very useful in showing if a player can full his dps/booncorrupt etc role. Does the minstrel FB do more dps than the weaver? The weaver is terrible. Even in pve, multiple DIFFERENT classes compete in dps. It isnt different in wvw. A scourge can be specced to do either big spike power dmg, or be a booncorrupting machine (sacrificing damage, but still getting decent numbers in dmg). Revs can decimate scourges that are badly positioned, just CoR will do 13k dmg, plus a weaver meteor its gg, scourge instadowned (one rev can instadown eles with one skill, isnt it funny!) . But people often times dont know how to properly play their classes, have no idea about where-when-how to bomb or even reposition. I am sorry, but FB and scourge are just the top of the iceberg. The massive powercreep PoF brought, with all classes, is the real culprit here. Couple that with virtually little to no balance of skills-utilities for wvw, and theres the problem.

  • zinkz.7045zinkz.7045 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 23, 2018

    @DanAlcedo.3281 said:
    7/9 classes are meta in zerg figts.

    Which doesn't really change anything it is still "firebrand/scourge wars". Firstly because most of those classes are only needed in small numbers (to the point you will still have more scourges in a zerg than half the classes combined). Secondly because none of those classes are essential in the way firebrand/scourge are, you can quite happily have a zerg with zero mesmers, zero engies, etc and win every fight because competitvely WvW is a joke and those classes are merely just nice optional extras.

    I mean no one expects perfect balance where a 50 man squad is perfectly divided equally among 9 classes, but WvW is a total joke, you literally have two classes account for 50%+ of the squad, literally the worst class balance I have ever seen in a game and one of the reasons WvW is dead.

  • steki.1478steki.1478 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 23, 2018

    @zinkz.7045 said:

    @DanAlcedo.3281 said:
    7/9 classes are meta in zerg figts.

    Which doesn't really change anything it is still "firebrand/scourge wars". Firstly because most of those classes are only needed in small numbers (to the point you will still have more scourges in a zerg than half the classes combined). Secondly because none of those classes are essential in the way firebrand/scourge are, you can quite happily have a zerg with zero mesmers, zero engies, etc and win every fight because competitvely WvW is a joke and those classes are merely just nice optional extras.

    I mean no one expects perfect balance where a 50 man squad is perfectly divided equally among 9 classes, but WvW is a total joke, you literally have two classes account for 50%+ of the squad, literally the worst class balance I have ever seen in a game and one of the reasons WvW is dead.

    1 fb, 1-2 scourges, 1 herald, 1-2 spb/chrono/weaver/scrapper. per party You dont need more of non fb/scg because they provide strong impact already, even in small numbers. That doesnt mean they are weak, it means they are strong.

    Herald is already as "popular" as fb (or at least should be, there's no reason not to have perma fury and occasional dwarf elite buff in each party, along with extremely high, on demand burst). There's no point of stacking 5+ scrappers since they overheal a lot; spellbreakers because they dont have ranged pressure and several bubbles is already enough per fight; chronos because they can already share boons to whole squad and you dont get much value from having more. Weavers you can have up to 10 because they provide huge aoe pressure, but that would require a ranged squad, or them being outside of main squad (which needs to be almost full in that case for eles to be very effective).

    FB/scourge comp does has no real spike, no big range and low CC. The only thing they have is high defense. You stack them because they are generally tanky to create a melee ball and because boons=sustain and boon removal=cc+damage are much more impactful. Just like other classes, they lose value when you overstack them because they dont provide everything you would usually need.

  • DanAlcedo.3281DanAlcedo.3281 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 23, 2018

    @zinkz.7045 said:

    @DanAlcedo.3281 said:
    7/9 classes are meta in zerg figts.

    Which doesn't really change anything it is still "firebrand/scourge wars". Firstly because most of those classes are only needed in small numbers (to the point you will still have more scourges in a zerg than half the classes combined). Secondly because none of those classes are essential in the way firebrand/scourge are, you can quite happily have a zerg with zero mesmers, zero engies, etc and win every fight because competitvely WvW is a joke and those classes are merely just nice optional extras.

    I mean no one expects perfect balance where a 50 man squad is perfectly divided equally among 9 classes, but WvW is a total joke, you literally have two classes account for 50%+ of the squad, literally the worst class balance I have ever seen in a game and one of the reasons WvW is dead.

    Lets see.
    10 Firebrands because more is a waste of squad space.

    1-2 scrapper as emergency healer.
    2-3 mesmer for veil/cc always welcome
    5 weaver for thick meteors.
    3-4 Bubble boys
    5-10 revs for boons alone.

    So lets say 20 to 15 scourges per „normal“ squad.

    Sure its more then any other class but not as crazy as people claim.

  • zinkz.7045zinkz.7045 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 23, 2018

    @steki.1478 said:

    @zinkz.7045 said:

    @DanAlcedo.3281 said:
    7/9 classes are meta in zerg figts.

    Which doesn't really change anything it is still "firebrand/scourge wars". Firstly because most of those classes are only needed in small numbers (to the point you will still have more scourges in a zerg than half the classes combined). Secondly because none of those classes are essential in the way firebrand/scourge are, you can quite happily have a zerg with zero mesmers, zero engies, etc and win every fight because competitvely WvW is a joke and those classes are merely just nice optional extras.

    I mean no one expects perfect balance where a 50 man squad is perfectly divided equally among 9 classes, but WvW is a total joke, you literally have two classes account for 50%+ of the squad, literally the worst class balance I have ever seen in a game and one of the reasons WvW is dead.

    1 fb, 1-2 scourges, 1 herald, 1-2 spb/chrono/weaver/scrapper. per party You dont need more of non fb/scg because they provide strong impact already, even in small numbers. That doesnt mean they are weak, it means they are strong.

    Herald is already as "popular" as fb (or at least should be, there's no reason not to have perma fury and occasional dwarf elite buff in each party, along with extremely high, on demand burst). There's no point of stacking 5+ scrappers since they overheal a lot; spellbreakers because they dont have ranged pressure and several bubbles is already enough per fight; chronos because they can already share boons to whole squad and you dont get much value from having more. Weavers you can have up to 10 because they provide huge aoe pressure, but that would require a ranged squad, or them being outside of main squad (which needs to be almost full in that case for eles to be very effective).

    FB/scourge comp does has no real spike, no big range and low CC. The only thing they have is high defense. You stack them because they are generally tanky to create a melee ball and because boons=sustain and boon removal=cc+damage are much more impactful. Just like other classes, they lose value when you overstack them because they dont provide everything you would usually need.

    I am aware why some classes are "needed" in less numbers than others, so I'm not sure why you are telling me.

    As for "strong", nonsense, take healbot engy as an example, do a couple of healbot engies make a 50 man squad a bit more 'optimal', yes, but can you do fine without them, the answer is also yes, because competitively WVW is a joke, so most zerg fights are nowhere near close enough for it to matter. The same does not apply to scourges or firebrands, e.g - go run your zerg without scourges and your opponents will just run over you, that is 'strong'.

    The game has 9 classes, in a typical zerg squad scourges make up more places than engy, mes, thief, ranger, ele (including eles not in squad) combined, class "balance" is laughable.

  • zinkz.7045zinkz.7045 Member ✭✭✭

    @DanAlcedo.3281 said:

    @zinkz.7045 said:

    @DanAlcedo.3281 said:
    7/9 classes are meta in zerg figts.

    Which doesn't really change anything it is still "firebrand/scourge wars". Firstly because most of those classes are only needed in small numbers (to the point you will still have more scourges in a zerg than half the classes combined). Secondly because none of those classes are essential in the way firebrand/scourge are, you can quite happily have a zerg with zero mesmers, zero engies, etc and win every fight because competitvely WvW is a joke and those classes are merely just nice optional extras.

    I mean no one expects perfect balance where a 50 man squad is perfectly divided equally among 9 classes, but WvW is a total joke, you literally have two classes account for 50%+ of the squad, literally the worst class balance I have ever seen in a game and one of the reasons WvW is dead.

    Lets see.
    10 Firebrands because more is a waste of squad space.

    1-2 scrapper as emergency healer.
    2-3 mesmer for veil/cc always welcome
    5 weaver for thick meteors.
    3-4 Bubble boys
    5-10 revs for boons alone.

    So lets say 20 to 15 scourges per „normal“ squad.

    Sure its more then any other class but not as crazy as people claim.

    LOL, 20 scourges is more than engi, ranger, mes, ele thief, warrior combined, a game with 9 classes where 1 class takes up more spots than 6 combined, that is laughable.

  • DanAlcedo.3281DanAlcedo.3281 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 23, 2018

    @zinkz.7045 said:

    @steki.1478 said:

    @zinkz.7045 said:

    @DanAlcedo.3281 said:
    7/9 classes are meta in zerg figts.

    Which doesn't really change anything it is still "firebrand/scourge wars". Firstly because most of those classes are only needed in small numbers (to the point you will still have more scourges in a zerg than half the classes combined). Secondly because none of those classes are essential in the way firebrand/scourge are, you can quite happily have a zerg with zero mesmers, zero engies, etc and win every fight because competitvely WvW is a joke and those classes are merely just nice optional extras.

    I mean no one expects perfect balance where a 50 man squad is perfectly divided equally among 9 classes, but WvW is a total joke, you literally have two classes account for 50%+ of the squad, literally the worst class balance I have ever seen in a game and one of the reasons WvW is dead.

    1 fb, 1-2 scourges, 1 herald, 1-2 spb/chrono/weaver/scrapper. per party You dont need more of non fb/scg because they provide strong impact already, even in small numbers. That doesnt mean they are weak, it means they are strong.

    Herald is already as "popular" as fb (or at least should be, there's no reason not to have perma fury and occasional dwarf elite buff in each party, along with extremely high, on demand burst). There's no point of stacking 5+ scrappers since they overheal a lot; spellbreakers because they dont have ranged pressure and several bubbles is already enough per fight; chronos because they can already share boons to whole squad and you dont get much value from having more. Weavers you can have up to 10 because they provide huge aoe pressure, but that would require a ranged squad, or them being outside of main squad (which needs to be almost full in that case for eles to be very effective).

    FB/scourge comp does has no real spike, no big range and low CC. The only thing they have is high defense. You stack them because they are generally tanky to create a melee ball and because boons=sustain and boon removal=cc+damage are much more impactful. Just like other classes, they lose value when you overstack them because they dont provide everything you would usually need.

    LOL, I am aware why some classes are "needed" in less numbers than others, so I'm not sure why you are telling me.

    As for "strong", nonsense, take healbot engy as an example, do a couple of healbot engies make a 50 man squad a bit more 'optimal', yes, but can you do fine without them, the answer is also yes, because competitively WVW is a joke, so most zerg fights are nowhere near close enough for it to matter. The same does not apply to scourges or firebrands, e.g - go run your zerg without scourges and your opponents will just run over you, that is 'strong'.

    The game has 9 classes, in a typical zerg squad scourges make up more places than engy, mes, thief, ranger, ele (including eles not in squad combined) combined, class "balance" is laughable.

    So this boils down to „nerf scourge“ then.

    And im sitting here, happy that we have a meta that allows 7/9 classes in WvW zergs without someone complaining.

    And the other 2 are amazing roamer.

    We live in a time where literally EVERY class is usefull in WvW.

    Balance Team Bad!!11!

    Edit:

    The REAL reason scourge sees so much play are these 3:

    A) Its a strong class for WvW

    B.) Its by FAR the easiest build you can play.

    C) Scourge gets the most loot/wxp because of crazy tagging.

  • One has also to take into account, how many players play these classes.
    Imagine some meta would require 20% of the zerg playing 4-kit core-engis or some 4-kit gyro-scrapper. There are a few roamers and most holosmith builds are rather easy. However, I doubt most servers would find enough players that have fun playing these builds.
    It's similar with weavers and mesmers. there aren't many that play them casually.
    Scourges are rather easy to play while firebrands are a bit more complicated than core guards, but still rather relaxed to play.

    So, I'm also quite happy, that most classes have a zerg place in WvW and their actual need is similar to the amount of players that like that class. Though, in Guild setups I also see effective uses of packleader-soulbeasts and vault-daredevils.

  • Kaiser.9873Kaiser.9873 Member ✭✭✭

    @Nimon.7840 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @DanAlcedo.3281 said:
    7/9 classes are meta in zerg figts.

    If the enemy only has Firebrands and scourges then he has no bubbles, no insane scrapper heals, no meteorshowers, no mesmer cc/veil/portal, no boons from rev.

    I take that enemy server any day.

    Scorge covers the boon strip and healing as well as aoe dmg and burst single targets and cc. FB covers the strong boons as well as healing and cc.

    But you loose all the damage from revs.

    People keep complaining about scourges in wvw. Even though scourge isn't the damage dealer in zergs right now.
    Even if you play full grieving, every rev should outdamage you.

    The problem is. That most people see their buff/debuff bar. See 5 conditions from scourge: vulnerability, 1stack bleed, 1 stack torment, 1 stack burn, and cripple
    But they don't notice the revs hitting them for 10k

    The people that bother to look at the combat bar realize this is true. The devs did Scourge no favors showing the big red circles all over the place. What neither Scourge nor FB can cover is the 1200 range power bomb. If/when I die in a fight I always look at combat bar afterwards. It's NOT the Scourge hitting for 5K plus. Phase Smash 9K+, Meteor 4K+, CoR 5K+, I got hit by a Fireball for 7K the other day. Scourge provides hazing at best at 1200 (Staff is just utilities really), axe ramps the damage up, but at 900. Shades and wells @900. You're at half, or dead by the time you close the distance with a heavy rev comp.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    Once FB and scorge was added to the game it comply tipped balancing of how ppl played the game and was become needed to have a viable group in wvw. FB and scorge has only made the game far worst then made it better and it would be better on every one even the players of these classes if they where never added in.

    And before the fb and scourge, the guardian and reaper dominated zergs (dh standing sad in a corner). And before that the guardian and necro was the baseline.

    Otherwise we're walking in the same shoes as 2012. How is the fb+scourge dominance different from the guard+necro dominance?

    So core gurd has limatation on its support out put as a core class it was support aimed but FB added all that much more support. Its like FB become a dubble guardian in effect power creep. There by pushing out any other support. Reaper had to do most of its effects at melee and melee only it was only epile that make them broken as a class.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    In a way balancing of elite spec and what they added in need major "locks" base off of the core classes. So a FB should not add as much stab / support because core gurd gets a lot of build in support / stab. Also scorge should not get as much boon corruption and aoe as core necro gets a lot of boon corruption and aoe. This IS an issues of power leap (i would not call this creep because it was way more of a power boots then a small jump "creep") destroying a game type for many classes and nothing more. Gurds and necro where very viable wvw classes but where not the end all be all but FB and scorge ARE end all be all wvw classes.

  • Acyk.9671Acyk.9671 Member ✭✭
    edited November 23, 2018

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    Once FB and scorge was added to the game it comply tipped balancing of how ppl played the game and was become needed to have a viable group in wvw. FB and scorge has only made the game far worst then made it better and it would be better on every one even the players of these classes if they where never added in.

    And before the fb and scourge, the guardian and reaper dominated zergs (dh standing sad in a corner). And before that the guardian and necro was the baseline.

    Otherwise we're walking in the same shoes as 2012. How is the fb+scourge dominance different from the guard+necro dominance?

    So core gurd has limatation on its support out put as a core class it was support aimed but FB added all that much more support. Its like FB become a dubble guardian in effect power creep. There by pushing out any other support. Reaper had to do most of its effects at melee and melee only it was only epile that make them broken as a class.

    How is it bad to reduce guard stacking and give space to other specs in squad?
    FB is not the main problem because 10/50 are enough. Playing more is a loss, rather have 5 chronos, 3 scrappers in squad to complement.
    Scourge is because of shade radius but no one seems to understand this. Standardize shade to 240 radius, 5 target and give recharge time to grand master traits depending on effect (barrier/burn/boons) and gamemode. You could even rework in a way that using F1 doesn't trigger shades effects on you so you either play distant with F1-F5 or melee with f2-f5. Also 300 ferocity on Death Perception should be reduced.
    That would result in less field control, go more melee and allow more specs like reaper, tempest, holosmith, etc to be viable in large scale.

  • @Jski.6180 said:

    @DanAlcedo.3281 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @DanAlcedo.3281 said:
    7/9 classes are meta in zerg figts.

    If the enemy only has Firebrands and scourges then he has no bubbles, no insane scrapper heals, no meteorshowers, no mesmer cc/veil/portal, no boons from rev.

    I take that enemy server any day.

    Scorge covers the boon strip and healing as well as aoe dmg and burst single targets and cc. FB covers the strong boons as well as healing and cc.

    Aaaaaaand your point is?

    So you are saying that a full zerg with only necros and guardians is better then one with all of the above?

    Yes. And the zerg with less of the 2 classes are worst off. Its even worst with the rune/ sigil update pushing the meta more into the bunker meta where necros and guardians are both the bunker AND the counter to that bunker.

    Not entirely true. About 1 month ago, 8 of us repeatedly took down a group of 60 that was primarily scourges and firebrands (with the help of a banner). Our group comp was 1 warrior, 2 revs, 1 firebrand (I think), a druid, reaper, scourge, and soulbeast. Like I've said before, soulbeasts tear scourges apart; and also as I found out during these encounters, herald revs also tear scourges apart (and firebrands to an extent if they are dumb enough to stay grouped up). The way a back line rev should be played basically eliminates how the scourge needs to be played to be effective. It came to a point where the scourges stopped pushing as they were in a constant state of trying to reaz which meant they were constantly getting bombed while trying to rez each other. Then as the downed person was revived, the rezzer's went down. Then when they tried to revive, more rezzer's went down.

    It was quite funny to watch because their mindset was exactly what the OP is pointing out, commanders (and this commander is one of the more well known commanders) are under the belief that the more scourges and firebrands you have, the more likely you were going to win. To employ that strategy, you have to run forward in a tight little melee train and bomb as you go. Well it didn't exactly work out that way for the way they hoped. Between the 2 revs (1 carrying a banner), the soulbeast, and warrior dropping the bubble as they ran forward, their scourges repeatedly dropped. So the rezzing started, and the bombs on the rezzer's started.. so they ran. Then the banner downed a bunch more as they ran.

    They could have easily alleviated this by having a combo of 5 of their scourges/firebrands swap to soulbeasts, and in turn the soulbeasts focus down the 2 revs (especially the 1 carrying the banner). But why have soulbeasts in your comp? Ewww yuck they aren't meta. Hell even an annoying deadeye or mirage would have done the trick.

    I will agree though, Anet made the combination of firebrand and scourge very desirable to play in groups, a little too desirable compared to other classes.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    So if your a commander run with out FB and scorges see how that works out for ya.

  • Acyk.9671Acyk.9671 Member ✭✭
    edited November 23, 2018

    @Jski.6180 said:

    So if your a commander run with out FB and scorges see how that works out for ya.

    What's your point? Delete guard and necro?

  • Turkeyspit.3965Turkeyspit.3965 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 23, 2018

    @Kaiser.9873 said:

    @Nimon.7840 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @DanAlcedo.3281 said:
    7/9 classes are meta in zerg figts.

    If the enemy only has Firebrands and scourges then he has no bubbles, no insane scrapper heals, no meteorshowers, no mesmer cc/veil/portal, no boons from rev.

    I take that enemy server any day.

    Scorge covers the boon strip and healing as well as aoe dmg and burst single targets and cc. FB covers the strong boons as well as healing and cc.

    But you loose all the damage from revs.

    People keep complaining about scourges in wvw. Even though scourge isn't the damage dealer in zergs right now.
    Even if you play full grieving, every rev should outdamage you.

    The problem is. That most people see their buff/debuff bar. See 5 conditions from scourge: vulnerability, 1stack bleed, 1 stack torment, 1 stack burn, and cripple
    But they don't notice the revs hitting them for 10k

    The people that bother to look at the combat bar realize this is true. The devs did Scourge no favors showing the big red circles all over the place. What neither Scourge nor FB can cover is the 1200 range power bomb. If/when I die in a fight I always look at combat bar afterwards. It's NOT the Scourge hitting for 5K plus. Phase Smash 9K+, Meteor 4K+, CoR 5K+, I got hit by a Fireball for 7K the other day. Scourge provides hazing at best at 1200 (Staff is just utilities really), axe ramps the damage up, but at 900. Shades and wells @900. You're at half, or dead by the time you close the distance with a heavy rev comp.

    Exactly. Scourge is capable of dishing out large AoE bombs of spike damage, but their true value is in boon strip and corrupt, (and barrier obv). Often it's up to the backline crew (Revs and Eles mostly) to either burst the weakened enemy player into downed, or finish off the downs in the first place. I've seen Scourge eat 18k COS into downed because of (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Swift_Termination) and they were below that threshold, so they probably had 14-16k health left? A sand shade wouldn't take them down at that point, but a hammer to the face sure will. I see it often when the enemy frontline meets my squad's shades, but before they can dodge back they are eating a Rev hammer or a meteor.

    There is no question that Scourge is still a major factor in how the meta performs, as they are literally spamming AoE bombs, but unless a player is hit by several scourges at once, it's likely another DPS'er who is taking them down.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 23, 2018

    @Acyk.9671 said:
    @Jski.6180 said:

    So if your a commander run with out FB and scorges see how that works out for ya.

    What's your point? Delete guard and necro?

    Delete FB and scorge. Core guard and core necro are very balanced its the added on of these 2 elites that have effectually made them dubble version of them self.

    Also keep the devs that made these 2 elite spec as far from class balancing as humanly can.

  • @Jski.6180 said:

    @Acyk.9671 said:
    @Jski.6180 said:

    So if your a commander run with out FB and scorges see how that works out for ya.

    What's your point? Delete guard and necro?

    Delete FB and scorge. Core guard and core necro are very balanced its the added on of these 2 elites that have effectually made them dubble version of them self.

    Sure lets go back to 20 guards and 15 necro in squad. You don't realize numbers because there were no squad then but meta was 4 classes, now it's 7. When it comes to balance i pick 7 everyday.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Acyk.9671 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Acyk.9671 said:
    @Jski.6180 said:

    So if your a commander run with out FB and scorges see how that works out for ya.

    What's your point? Delete guard and necro?

    Delete FB and scorge. Core guard and core necro are very balanced its the added on of these 2 elites that have effectually made them dubble version of them self.

    Sure lets go back to 20 guards and 15 necro in squad. You don't realize numbers because there were no squad then but meta was 4 classes, now it's 7. When it comes to balance i pick 7 everyday.

    Lol that no where near how it was yes you did have a lot of guards but you did not have nearly as many necro you had mez for boon strip not support you had ele for real hard and soft cc you had rev for support not just a wepon you had thfs that could pick as well as rangers. It was just over all a better game.

    All devs should out right hate the FB and scorge devs they destroyed most of the balancing in the game.

  • Acyk.9671Acyk.9671 Member ✭✭
    edited November 23, 2018

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Acyk.9671 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Acyk.9671 said:
    @Jski.6180 said:

    So if your a commander run with out FB and scorges see how that works out for ya.

    What's your point? Delete guard and necro?

    Delete FB and scorge. Core guard and core necro are very balanced its the added on of these 2 elites that have effectually made them dubble version of them self.

    Sure lets go back to 20 guards and 15 necro in squad. You don't realize numbers because there were no squad then but meta was 4 classes, now it's 7. When it comes to balance i pick 7 everyday.

    Lol that no where near how it was yes you did have a lot of guards but you did not have nearly as many necro you had mez for boon strip not support you had ele for real hard and soft cc you had rev for support not just a wepon you had thfs that could pick as well as rangers. It was just over all a better game.

    All devs should out right hate the FB and scorge devs they destroyed most of the balancing in the game.

    In large scale you had 2 guard 1 war 1 necro in every groups. Then you took either ele, mesmer or another necro for your fifth spot. Mesmer was only for veil so 2/3 were more than enough and not always in melee group and 5 Ele were enough for blasting water + CC. So yeah 50 men comps were around 20 guards + 15 necros + 10 war + 5 ele (+ 2 mesmers). Thief and Ranger were out of squad or for gvg.

    Now optimal 50 men comp:
    10 FB, 10 Rev, 5 spellbreaker, 5 chronos, 2/3 scrapper, 3 to 5 weavers, 15 scourge. If some classes are lacking you might take more scourges or have some weavers/Rev out of squad but in no way you play only FB+ Scourge.

    EDIT: I was talking about Vanilla meta in previous comment since you named core guard + core necro and then you said Rev (which didn't exist).

    HoT meta was:
    10 rev
    10 reaper
    (5 berserker )
    3 support in every group (either 1 guard + 1 chrono + 1 tempest OR 2 guard + tempest) with 15/20 guards + 8/10 tempest + 3/5 chronos (+ 2 druids)
    I feel like i keep repeating the same things over and over in different posts.

    EDIT 2: sometimes only 2 support + 1 rev + 2 necro. It depended on comm and playstyle

  • shiri.4257shiri.4257 Member ✭✭✭

    @Jski.6180 said:
    So if your a commander run with out FB and scorges see how that works out for ya.

    Perhaps you should work on being a better commander so more FB and scourges join your squad.

    Spectre [VII] - Wood League Champion. Making "fight guilds" stack on higher tiers since 2013.
    Wood League News Network [WLNN]- www.twitch.tv/shirirx

  • Rampage.7145Rampage.7145 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 30, 2018

    @myboybuzzy.5809 said:
    Who else is over this meta of red circles of death.

    Gotta love how bads like this guy thinks Scourges and FBs are they key to win fights in WvW lol when u literally need every class but ranger to get a good powerfull composition, if you only have scourges and FBs btw your whole 65+ man blob would just get smoked by the other server running all heralds or all weavers btw. So a full blob of only the 2 "OP" Classes will get obilerated by a blob made of 1 single class. The meta currently btw has more choices and and class variety than ever before only the mediocre players who pug around as a ranger and have never been on a top tier guild would think otherwise.

    VR Driver
    Salty beavers top guild 2 years in a row back to back, the double champs
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