Semi and Perma-Stealth are junk mechanics — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Semi and Perma-Stealth are junk mechanics

Straegen.2938Straegen.2938 Member ✭✭✭
edited November 23, 2018 in WvW

Since launch, stealthing into and out of fights has been broken. Every attempt to "fix" it with counters has proven almost pointless. The mechanic needs to get removed. It irritates pretty much everyone but the trolls that run it. Either stealth before or after an attack not both. Reveals need to be long and they should have no counter. I am fine reworking the handful of traits that revolve around this mechanic. Thieves already have strong evade and movement... I even play a variety of no-stealth builds with success.

This last mark counter was only needed because Deadeye had the ability to remove reveal. The mark mechanic is overly complicated manure for a junk stealth mechanic. Many of the serious thief nerfs over the years track back to balancing stealth. Instead of several weapon sets that work well with dynamic play, most are pigeoned into D/P, Rifle or both.

Tweaking stealth so it is an opener or escape rather than both will go a long ways towards removing one of the most crappy WvW mechanics this game has. Oh and yes, I mainly play a thief.

<1

Comments

  • Widmo.3186Widmo.3186 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 23, 2018

    Yes, definetly stealth is a problem. You can dodge stealth abillities, you can interrupt going to stealth, you can prevent entering stealth, you can play around it and do other things. The only thing that is/was broken is DE, because it has/had no counter (sorry bois, cleansing revealed, rifle range/malicious bs and stealth on dodge, fun and competetive ). As someone said X years ago, lets grab sticks and shields, only charge and block ability, 5hp per person, single attack deals 1 dmg. Lets go.

    Dont mind me, I just randomly spam 35 skill-buttons

  • Thief was designed around stealth. If you take that from them it will be just a squishy target with all their evades. Before perma stealth deadeye i was playing sword dagger deadeye...people complain, and this is a thing for all thief specs. They repeatedly nerfed them several times. There are lots of way to deal with stealth... As you noticed from the last Arena Net attempt to deal with stealth :))) they are not so good at it. They affected all classes because of one. But...in the end what is a mmorpg without a stealth class? Go play WoW with perma stealth rogues.

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Silv.1723 said:
    Thief was designed around stealth. If you take that from them it will be just a squishy target with all their evades. Before perma stealth deadeye i was playing sword dagger deadeye...people complain, and this is a thing for all thief specs. They repeatedly nerfed them several times. There are lots of way to deal with stealth... As you noticed from the last Arena Net attempt to deal with stealth :))) they are not so good at it. They affected all classes because of one. But...in the end what is a mmorpg without a stealth class? Go play WoW with perma stealth rogues.

    To be honest I think the complaints are misdirected in some ways. For example I was playing a grieving Sw/F weaver vs my friend on DE with Sw/P and D/D. He died the first few times until I said to him he can just keep spamming DE mark and I can't really catch or stop him at 1500 range. I also pointed out if he keeps using infiltrators strike in to me it puts 3 conditions on me and he can always port out if it's a mistake. After he started abusing infiltrators strike to constantly dip in, pistol whip and leave the fights were unwinnable for me. I could stalemate it by making us both too bored to continue as weaver has good regen but it's not a fight I would really be able to win.

    I think really people are just annoyed that they come across thief builds they have no hope of winning against and stealth kind of cements that with disappearing for 3-6s and then appearing on a hill just standing there, ready to teleport in at the right (or wrong depending on who you are) moment. This dark shadowy stalker who is hell bent on getting the kill.

    Not saying their complaints are entirely valid but thief due to it's ini system can pretty much "spam" any singular skill that is considered the best skill to use vs a class or where the class is at a distinct disadvantage fighting against. I don't think there's a way around that even with changing stealth.

    I stand with Mo.

  • @XenesisII.1540 said:
    They've put in more reveals, then stealth trap, then a remove reveal, and now added mark, since the beginning for the game to deal with it is enough proof that it was never developed properly for the pvp environment in the first place.

    It's just fine in the PVP environment, because you can't contest points while stealthed. It only becomes a problem in large open areas you have plenty of places to sneak up on someone from and plenty of space to run away in, ie WvW. That goes for the thief profession as a whole, really.

  • XenesisII.1540XenesisII.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Hyper Cutter.9376 said:

    @XenesisII.1540 said:
    They've put in more reveals, then stealth trap, then a remove reveal, and now added mark, since the beginning for the game to deal with it is enough proof that it was never developed properly for the pvp environment in the first place.

    It's just fine in the PVP environment, because you can't contest points while stealthed. It only becomes a problem in large open areas you have plenty of places to sneak up on someone from and plenty of space to run away in, ie WvW. That goes for the thief profession as a whole, really.

    Saved by cap prevention, which I don't even remember if that was in at release.
    Same as that time when thieves use to troll entire wvw zergs with preventing capping too in stealth.
    Been so long I don't even remember the details of either anymore.

    Perma stealth, also not even the first time having to deal that in wvw either, which they only ever bothered to fix the first time because someone got creative with it on a raid boss, not the months and months and months of having to endure it in wvw. Like I said people will have to accept it already, the devs will never overhaul the system.

    Another derailing post. ^^
    EBG North Keep: One of the village residents will now flee if their home is destroyed!
    Maguuma: Free ppt, come and get it!

  • @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:
    stealth is broken, thief is broken, mirage is broken.

    If anet had a true balance team they would remove stealth and/or remove these two classes for a complete overhaul (including a big fat nerf). Only anet's balance team and thief players can think that hitting someone for 14+k damage, out of stealth and then disappearing into stealth is 'balanced'. Newsflash: it is not.

    I'm fine with losing stealth, if you want a nerf along with that then I expect your profession to get it's damage and sustain nerfed as well tho, considering most things can hit just as hard as thief these days.

    Critical Kit, Deadeye.

  • Jugglemonkey.8741Jugglemonkey.8741 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 24, 2018

    I run S/P deadeye and I don't run shadow meld now. Daggerstorm is generally much more useful, since between revealed and marked stealth is unreliable at best and not worth traiting into imo. If you still have issues with stealth after the last patch I'd say it's a L2P issue at this point.

    Critical Kit, Deadeye.

  • DemonSeed.3528DemonSeed.3528 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I've seen a lot more thieves run daggerstorm now, I rarely see a deadeye that uses shadow meld - it's all mostly daredevils running staff builds and a minute quantity running other dd or core builds.

  • Etterwyn.5263Etterwyn.5263 Member ✭✭✭

    Stealth should be based around movement and opportunity. Going all the way back to the original Dungeons and Dragon's, good ol' Backstab. Serious damage if it lands, but oh boy are you in trouble otherwise.

    I think (not that my noob opinion has value) that stealth should not break targeting. If you already had a lock on your opponent when he goes back into stealth, you won't be able to see him but you stay locked on and your attacks can still hit. This forces the stealthed player to make his moment of opportunity count or otherwise pay the price. (Or just disengage and try again). Right now the reward heavily outweighs the risk.

    This all started with Factions, when Anet introduced the Assassin with all its teleporting. It was a cheap class then, and now it has a new name but is even cheaper than before.

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:
    stealth is broken, thief is broken, mirage is broken.

    If anet had a true balance team they would remove stealth and/or remove these two classes for a complete overhaul (including a big fat nerf). Only anet's balance team and thief players can think that hitting someone for 14+k damage, out of stealth and then disappearing into stealth is 'balanced'. Newsflash: it is not.

    I'd be fine losing stealth and redesigning mesmer to be more like GW1, you might not be though.

    Also 14k is no grounds to complain, come back when you get hit with 27k malicious backstab and have rangers pew pewing for 8-10k with auto attacks at a range you can't realistically avoid.

    I stand with Mo.

  • FaboBabo.3581FaboBabo.3581 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The prestige ; 3 seconds Stealth every 24 seconds when traited. Signet ; 2 seconds Stealth every 30 seconds. Completly broken perma Stealth Mirage.

    Mirage since Day 1 - It got better!

  • Arcaedus.7290Arcaedus.7290 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I like how stealth works on mesmer:

    • multiple sources of stealth
    • many short-dura but some long-dura stealth
    • due to cooldowns, they cannot maintain perma stealth.

    That third bullet point is why I hate how it works on thief. Perma-stealth should absolutely not be a thing even if you take all possible stealth skills and traits that boost it. I don't think nerfing stealth access is a logical option here since DE as an elite spec depends so heavily on stealth both for offence and defence. I think the only real way to address this as a balance issue would be to cap the maximum stacking duration of stealth or to nerf the ability to reapply stealth once already in it (like maybe only gain 50% of the stealth duration you would otherwise gain if not stealthed to begin with).

  • Stealth not broken. WHats broken is the developers decided to put the largest burst damage behind stealth.

  • cobbah.3102cobbah.3102 Member ✭✭✭

    Delete all stealth problem solved!! Have not seen many invisible people running around irl

  • @apharma.3741 said:
    I'd be fine losing stealth and redesigning mesmer to be more like GW1, you might not be though.

    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/List_of_hex_spells

    I can only imagine the Q.Q in this game if players were punished for spamming skills. Empathy and Insidious Parasite would hard counter melee. Backfire and Arcane Conundrum would make casters rage. Visions of Regret and Spiteful Spirit would make zergs cry and ragequit the game forever. And those are only some of the many things that made Guild Wars 1 more of an Esport than this game will ever be.

  • Straegen.2938Straegen.2938 Member ✭✭✭

    @Spartacus.3192 said:
    tbh i dont mind stealth as a mechanic what i dont like is how ANET implemented it. It lasts too long and ANET gave traits that give too many buffs while in stealth. Also what the heck is it with moving "faster" in stealth? That just doesn't make sense. If you're trying to sneak around and not be seen you shouldn't be able to move faster than if you were just sprinting unstealthed. The last game i played did stealth right. They made it so you moved at 66% of normal speed while in stealth. You need to trait it just to be able to move at normal speed. You could NEVER move faster than normal speed while stealthed. That way if you tried to perma stealth you could never catch someone who was trying to run away from you. That in itself is a good counter.

    I missed the stealth speed issue. I agree stealth should slow a player down. That change alone would be an interesting change and possibly enough to balance the skill out a bit. At the very least stealth builds would have to compromise damage to retain speed or lose a significant amount of combat mobility to slink around.

  • Hesacon.8735Hesacon.8735 Member ✭✭✭

    I wouldn't say stealth is too strong, it's a perfectly fine mechanic; but it's way too easy at the moment to always have it.

    I was on my stealthless daredevil yesterday and got into a battle with a roaming Deadeye. Every time I go to fight he or she stealths several times, hits for 80-90% damage, and goes back into stealth. I'm a daredevil so I can outrun it out of combat to reset the fight and do.

    Rinse and repeat this exchange a half dozen times across half the map and I'm not having any fun as I cannot win the fight, I have to play it to a draw.

  • Strider Pj.2193Strider Pj.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    E> @Hesacon.8735 said:

    I wouldn't say stealth is too strong, it's a perfectly fine mechanic; but it's way too easy at the moment to always have it.

    I was on my stealthless daredevil yesterday and got into a battle with a roaming Deadeye. Every time I go to fight he or she stealths several times, hits for 80-90% damage, and goes back into stealth. I'm a daredevil so I can outrun it out of combat to reset the fight and do.

    Rinse and repeat this exchange a half dozen times across half the map and I'm not having any fun as I cannot win the fight, I have to play it to a draw.

    Stealth access is part of the problem in that encounter. The other problem is you being able to run away and reset each and every time.

    There are larger global issues here. Stealth and mobility are one part.

  • Hesacon.8735Hesacon.8735 Member ✭✭✭

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:
    E> @Hesacon.8735 said:

    I wouldn't say stealth is too strong, it's a perfectly fine mechanic; but it's way too easy at the moment to always have it.

    I was on my stealthless daredevil yesterday and got into a battle with a roaming Deadeye. Every time I go to fight he or she stealths several times, hits for 80-90% damage, and goes back into stealth. I'm a daredevil so I can outrun it out of combat to reset the fight and do.

    Rinse and repeat this exchange a half dozen times across half the map and I'm not having any fun as I cannot win the fight, I have to play it to a draw.

    Stealth access is part of the problem in that encounter. The other problem is you being able to run away and reset each and every time.

    There are larger global issues here. Stealth and mobility are one part.

    Oh for sure, my build is pretty cheese, but I still will avoid mirages, soulbeasts, and Deadeyes on it.

  • But I thought this kind of play was fun and enjoyable?

    The only reason I got the kill was by baiting him, let him get cocky, as the only way you get the kill is by them over investing, other wise it's just reset after reset.

  • I remember in City of Heroes, there was a thief class called Stalker which could one-shot you.

    But there were a few ways it was manageable... first, the Stalker would have access to ONE skill it could use from stealth to instakill - Assassin's Strike. You would need to get into melee range, and then begin the length cast time (say 2 and half seconds). As soon as you cast the skill, the Stalker would be revealed, giving you a brief window to use control effects to stop it. If you moved away, and the Stalker finished the cast, you would still take the damage. But in Guild Wars, you could dodge or use a CD, improving that issue which was in CoH.

  • Burnfall.9573Burnfall.9573 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 3, 2018

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:
    stealth is broken, thief is broken, mirage is broken.

    If anet had a true balance team they would remove stealth and/or remove these two classes for a complete overhaul (including a big fat nerf). Only anet's balance team and thief players can think that hitting someone for 14+k damage, out of stealth and then disappearing into stealth is 'balanced'. Newsflash: it is not.

    Well said

    "It isn’t often that I’ll feel inclined to point the finger at a class or two in a massively multiplayer game and blame it for the woes of an entire game mode. While I certainly wouldn’t go that far here, I do believe the Thief and Mesmer and some of their mechanics are the cause of many problems in Guild Wars 2’s PvP"
    (not excluding wvww)

    http://www.tentonhammer.com/articles/guild-wars-2-are-thieves-and-mesmer-s-the-cause-of-the-meta

    " HISTORY REPEATS
    ITSELF, HAS TO
    NOBODY LISTENS
    "

  • Strider Pj.2193Strider Pj.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Hesacon.8735 said:

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:
    E> @Hesacon.8735 said:

    I wouldn't say stealth is too strong, it's a perfectly fine mechanic; but it's way too easy at the moment to always have it.

    I was on my stealthless daredevil yesterday and got into a battle with a roaming Deadeye. Every time I go to fight he or she stealths several times, hits for 80-90% damage, and goes back into stealth. I'm a daredevil so I can outrun it out of combat to reset the fight and do.

    Rinse and repeat this exchange a half dozen times across half the map and I'm not having any fun as I cannot win the fight, I have to play it to a draw.

    Stealth access is part of the problem in that encounter. The other problem is you being able to run away and reset each and every time.

    There are larger global issues here. Stealth and mobility are one part.

    Oh for sure, my build is pretty cheese, but I still will avoid mirages, soulbeasts, and Deadeyes on it.

    Sorry... wasn’t implying your build was cheese. And I can’t blame you for building the Mobility in to get away from those.

    I run a sword/dagger weaver for the mobility. Focus would be more survivable, but I lose some of the ability to run.

    Thief and Mesmer will both be very hard to ‘get it right’ when it comes to small scale, both with stealth and the mobility access. And I certainly don’t pretend to have the answers.

  • XenoSpyro.1780XenoSpyro.1780 Member ✭✭✭

    @TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:
    But I thought this kind of play was fun and enjoyable?
    The only reason I got the kill was by baiting him, let him get cocky, as the only way you get the kill is by them over investing, other wise it's just reset after reset.

    Even with a victory, that was the stupidest thing I've ever watched. To think it's worse with braindeadeye.

  • kash.9213kash.9213 Member ✭✭✭

    @Burnfall.9573 said:

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:
    stealth is broken, thief is broken, mirage is broken.

    If anet had a true balance team they would remove stealth and/or remove these two classes for a complete overhaul (including a big fat nerf). Only anet's balance team and thief players can think that hitting someone for 14+k damage, out of stealth and then disappearing into stealth is 'balanced'. Newsflash: it is not.

    Well said

    "It isn’t often that I’ll feel inclined to point the finger at a class or two in a massively multiplayer game and blame it for the woes of an entire game mode. While I certainly wouldn’t go that far here, I do believe the Thief and Mesmer and some of their mechanics are the cause of many problems in Guild Wars 2’s PvP"
    (not excluding wvww)

    http://www.tentonhammer.com/articles/guild-wars-2-are-thieves-and-mesmer-s-the-cause-of-the-meta

    " HISTORY REPEATS
    ITSELF, HAS TO
    NOBODY LISTENS
    "

    Do you two text each other any time thief is mentioned in a thread to remind each other to copy/paste your usual rants?

    Northern Shiverpeaks [EL]

  • I dont copy and paste.

    But someone has to tell the truth: thief and mesmer are utterly broken and should have never been put into this game in this way.

  • Burnfall.9573Burnfall.9573 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:
    I dont copy and paste.

    But someone has to tell the truth: thief and mesmer are utterly broken and should have never been put into this game in this way.

    " Searching for the truth is easy. Accepting the truth is hard "

    Kash knows the truth but isn't willing to accept it

  • Kylden Ar.3724Kylden Ar.3724 Member ✭✭✭

    Semi-and Perma-Invulnerable are junk mechanics.

    Semi-and Perma-Might are junk mechanics.

    Semi-and Perma-Resistance are junk mechanics.

    Semi- and Perma-AoE are junk mechanics.

    WvW is junk mechanics.

    If all you guys do is hate the game, leave.

    Leader of PvE/WvW Havoc Guild - Tyrian Adventure Corporation [TACO] - Kaineng since the start, and till KN is no more.

    Do not fear simplification of the game, there is elegance in simplicity that allows more time for playing and less time building.

  • @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:
    I dont copy and paste.

    But someone has to tell the truth: thief and mesmer are utterly broken and should have never been put into this game in this way.

    What really is broken is the people lack of willingness to learn to play while having instead lots of time to and being overzelous in crying on the forums and asking for nerfs to cover for their lack of gameplay knowledge. Everyone knows that thief, with all it's stealth, has no chance to beat a high level player who built for 1v1. They can run away it's true, but wont be able to beat a professon meant for 1v1ing. You can better check this in the 2v2 arenas where you can see top players which are monsters with thief, like Sindrener and Toker, who have no chence against no-stealth pairs. You can see it's just a learning issue, and if you get beaten by a thief next time, you should at least consider the fact that they probably put way more effort in learning to fight and staying alive than you ever did and that it's time to look in what you are doing wrong instead of crying for nerfs and about stealth. Otherwise, be my guest and play thief and and be this broken monster you claim it to be. After youve beaten decent players on your faceroll class with thieaf come back and cry again on the forum.

  • @Kylden Ar.3724 said:
    Semi-and Perma-Invulnerable are junk mechanics.

    Semi-and Perma-Might are junk mechanics.

    Semi-and Perma-Resistance are junk mechanics.

    Semi- and Perma-AoE are junk mechanics.

    WvW is junk mechanics.

    If all you guys do is hate the game, leave.

    So never try and improve or fix anything, you either take broken stuff, or leave. That's your helpful input? Ok....

    @NuhDah.9812 said:

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:
    I dont copy and paste.

    But someone has to tell the truth: thief and mesmer are utterly broken and should have never been put into this game in this way.

    What really is broken is the people lack of willingness to learn to play while having instead lots of time to and being overzelous in crying on the forums and asking for nerfs to cover for their lack of gameplay knowledge. Everyone knows that thief, with all it's stealth, has no chance to beat a high level player who built for 1v1. They can run away it's true, but wont be able to beat a professon meant for 1v1ing. You can better check this in the 2v2 arenas where you can see top players which are monsters with thief, like Sindrener and Toker, who have no chence against no-stealth pairs. You can see it's just a learning issue, and if you get beaten by a thief next time, you should at least consider the fact that they probably put way more effort in learning to fight and staying alive than you ever did and that it's time to look in what you are doing wrong instead of crying for nerfs and about stealth. Otherwise, be my guest and play thief and and be this broken monster you claim it to be. After youve beaten decent players on your faceroll class with thieaf come back and cry again on the forum.

    PvP is not WvW, dmg and stealth are not the same in both. And the fact a very good player, can beat a given build, does not mean that build or mechanics are not broken.

  • NuhDah.9812NuhDah.9812 Member ✭✭
    edited December 3, 2018

    @TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:

    @Kylden Ar.3724 said:
    Semi-and Perma-Invulnerable are junk mechanics.

    Semi-and Perma-Might are junk mechanics.

    Semi-and Perma-Resistance are junk mechanics.

    Semi- and Perma-AoE are junk mechanics.

    WvW is junk mechanics.

    If all you guys do is hate the game, leave.

    So never try and improve or fix anything, you either take broken stuff, or leave. That's your helpful input? Ok....

    @NuhDah.9812 said:

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:
    I dont copy and paste.

    But someone has to tell the truth: thief and mesmer are utterly broken and should have never been put into this game in this way.

    What really is broken is the people lack of willingness to learn to play while having instead lots of time to and being overzelous in crying on the forums and asking for nerfs to cover for their lack of gameplay knowledge. Everyone knows that thief, with all it's stealth, has no chance to beat a high level player who built for 1v1. They can run away it's true, but wont be able to beat a professon meant for 1v1ing. You can better check this in the 2v2 arenas where you can see top players which are monsters with thief, like Sindrener and Toker, who have no chence against no-stealth pairs. You can see it's just a learning issue, and if you get beaten by a thief next time, you should at least consider the fact that they probably put way more effort in learning to fight and staying alive than you ever did and that it's time to look in what you are doing wrong instead of crying for nerfs and about stealth. Otherwise, be my guest and play thief and and be this broken monster you claim it to be. After youve beaten decent players on your faceroll class with thieaf come back and cry again on the forum.

    PvP is not WvW, dmg and stealth are not the same in both. And the fact a very good player, can beat a given build, does not mean that build or mechanics are not broken.

    Well if you label broken something you dislike, than your statement is true, but very irrelevant. Otherwise, I dont see how broken is the right word in your statement. Stealth is just another mechanic of the game, like block invulnerability, dodge, barrier etc. It is usually used deffesively, but like the others it might be used with some some offensive advantage. It has it's counter in revealed and it can also be rendered useless by your own defensive mechanics, terrain and map awareness, fight intuiton and aoes.

    I wasnt talking specifically about pvp, i just used 2v2s as an example, but be sure the 1v1 potential of a thief is proportionally the same as in pvp even in wvw. Thief might be fairing better in wvw than pvp, but so do the other professions if you know what you are doing. The only real advantage for some yhief builds in wvw is if need be they can run away easyer than in pvp.

    The fact that a very good player can beat another very good player only prooves that you, the one who cries about it, need to learn to be better at your game so you wont feel so desperate when a better player beats you, also to understand that mecanics you want to believe are broken for your own commodity aren't actually that scary if you know what you are doing. Or if you prefere this phrasing: if you are weak you get beaten by things you shouldn't.

  • Rayya.2591Rayya.2591 Member ✭✭✭

    stealth shoudn't make you invisible
    An example from other game : https://bnetcmsus-a.akamaihd.net/cms/content_folder_media/9f/9FARDCNDARAU1511386715378.gif

  • @Rayya.2591 said:
    stealth shoudn't make you invisible
    An example from other game : https://bnetcmsus-a.akamaihd.net/cms/content_folder_media/9f/9FARDCNDARAU1511386715378.gif

    The people who implemented stealth in that game probably did it the wrong way. They should learn from Anet how to do it.

  • kash.9213kash.9213 Member ✭✭✭

    @Straegen.2938 said:
    Since launch, stealthing into and out of fights has been broken. Every attempt to "fix" it with counters has proven almost pointless. The mechanic needs to get removed. It irritates pretty much everyone but the trolls that run it. Either stealth before or after an attack not both. Reveals need to be long and they should have no counter. I am fine reworking the handful of traits that revolve around this mechanic. Thieves already have strong evade and movement... I even play a variety of no-stealth builds with success.

    This last mark counter was only needed because Deadeye had the ability to remove reveal. The mark mechanic is overly complicated manure for a junk stealth mechanic. Many of the serious thief nerfs over the years track back to balancing stealth. Instead of several weapon sets that work well with dynamic play, most are pigeoned into D/P, Rifle or both.

    Tweaking stealth so it is an opener or escape rather than both will go a long ways towards removing one of the most crappy WvW mechanics this game has. Oh and yes, I mainly play a thief.

    Stealth is an opener and an escape, what is there to tweak? If you don't want to watch people going into and out of stealth, then have fun watching me saunter over to you with my new sustainable traits/skills/utilities as a replacement that I can now actually do damage under the effects of the entire time and enjoy a Death's Judgement in your face. I can play with either stealth or sustain, think on it for a min and decide if you'd be fine with either and be honest about it after considering what the changes to the class would look like to have comparable sustainability, your complaints would almost instantly start looking like the complaints thieves have about other classes.

    Northern Shiverpeaks [EL]

<1
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