Semi and Perma-Stealth are junk mechanics - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Semi and Perma-Stealth are junk mechanics

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  • Brujeria.7536Brujeria.7536 Member ✭✭✭

    Yes, stealth needs to be fully reworked, its a living meme . Especially in combination with mobility and other defense mechanics the problems get worse.

    For a bandaid fix there should be 5 seconds of "revealed" after leaving stealth, regardless if it expires or it gets removed by attacking. Furthermore inflicting conditions should also count as an attack.

  • DemonSeed.3528DemonSeed.3528 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @kash.9213 said:

    @Straegen.2938 said:
    Since launch, stealthing into and out of fights has been broken. Every attempt to "fix" it with counters has proven almost pointless. The mechanic needs to get removed. It irritates pretty much everyone but the trolls that run it. Either stealth before or after an attack not both. Reveals need to be long and they should have no counter. I am fine reworking the handful of traits that revolve around this mechanic. Thieves already have strong evade and movement... I even play a variety of no-stealth builds with success.

    This last mark counter was only needed because Deadeye had the ability to remove reveal. The mark mechanic is overly complicated manure for a junk stealth mechanic. Many of the serious thief nerfs over the years track back to balancing stealth. Instead of several weapon sets that work well with dynamic play, most are pigeoned into D/P, Rifle or both.

    Tweaking stealth so it is an opener or escape rather than both will go a long ways towards removing one of the most crappy WvW mechanics this game has. Oh and yes, I mainly play a thief.

    Stealth is an opener and an escape, what is there to tweak? If you don't want to watch people going into and out of stealth, then have fun watching me saunter over to you with my new sustainable traits/skills/utilities as a replacement that I can now actually do damage under the effects of the entire time and enjoy a Death's Judgement in your face. I can play with either stealth or sustain, think on it for a min and decide if you'd be fine with either and be honest about it after considering what the changes to the class would look like to have comparable sustainability, your complaints would almost instantly start looking like the complaints thieves have about other classes.

    I...kinda want that XD Not gonna lie, the buffs it would get from a stealth nerf would be even better I think but more horrific for people to deal with than before.

  • Safandula.8723Safandula.8723 Member ✭✭
    edited December 4, 2018

    @TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:
    But I thought this kind of play was fun and enjoyable?

    The only reason I got the kill was by baiting him, let him get cocky, as the only way you get the kill is by them over investing, other wise it's just reset after reset.

    U killed thief as dh, and started to jump on him, gz xD

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:
    I dont copy and paste.

    But someone has to tell the truth: thief and mesmer are utterly broken and should have never been put into this game in this way.

    first time i see someone states, thief is broken lol. not sure if u meant DE or thief overall

  • Kylden Ar.3724Kylden Ar.3724 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 4, 2018

    @Rayya.2591 said:
    stealth shoudn't make you invisible
    An example from other game : https://bnetcmsus-a.akamaihd.net/cms/content_folder_media/9f/9FARDCNDARAU1511386715378.gif

    I almost agree with that.

    @kash.9213 said:

    Stealth is an opener and an escape, what is there to tweak? If you don't want to watch people going into and out of stealth, then have fun watching me saunter over to you with my new sustainable traits/skills/utilities as a replacement that I can now actually do damage under the effects of the entire time and enjoy a Death's Judgement in your face. I can play with either stealth or sustain, think on it for a min and decide if you'd be fine with either and be honest about it after considering what the changes to the class would look like to have comparable sustainability, your complaints would almost instantly start looking like the complaints thieves have about other classes.

    Yeah, Stealth is a primary defense tool for 2 classes. Both of which are high burst (Theif, Mesmer). I am not sure people know what they are asking for if they take away stealth from those classes, cause it would need to be replaced with a different defense option (read: more sustain).

    Stealth is defense without damage reduction (by making you harder to notice or hit). If they gave us more defense WITH damage reduction, well, Mesmer is already insane there, and I can't imagine Daredevils with even more dodge/defense.

    Leader of PvE/WvW Havoc Guild - Tyrian Adventure Corporation [TACO] - Kaineng since the start, and till KN is no more.

    Do not fear simplification of the game, there is elegance in simplicity that allows more time for playing and less time building.

  • @TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:

    @NuhDah.9812 said:

    @TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:

    @Kylden Ar.3724 said:
    Semi-and Perma-Invulnerable are junk mechanics.

    Semi-and Perma-Might are junk mechanics.

    Semi-and Perma-Resistance are junk mechanics.

    Semi- and Perma-AoE are junk mechanics.

    WvW is junk mechanics.

    If all you guys do is hate the game, leave.

    So never try and improve or fix anything, you either take broken stuff, or leave. That's your helpful input? Ok....

    @NuhDah.9812 said:

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:
    I dont copy and paste.

    But someone has to tell the truth: thief and mesmer are utterly broken and should have never been put into this game in this way.

    What really is broken is the people lack of willingness to learn to play while having instead lots of time to and being overzelous in crying on the forums and asking for nerfs to cover for their lack of gameplay knowledge. Everyone knows that thief, with all it's stealth, has no chance to beat a high level player who built for 1v1. They can run away it's true, but wont be able to beat a professon meant for 1v1ing. You can better check this in the 2v2 arenas where you can see top players which are monsters with thief, like Sindrener and Toker, who have no chence against no-stealth pairs. You can see it's just a learning issue, and if you get beaten by a thief next time, you should at least consider the fact that they probably put way more effort in learning to fight and staying alive than you ever did and that it's time to look in what you are doing wrong instead of crying for nerfs and about stealth. Otherwise, be my guest and play thief and and be this broken monster you claim it to be. After youve beaten decent players on your faceroll class with thieaf come back and cry again on the forum.

    PvP is not WvW, dmg and stealth are not the same in both. And the fact a very good player, can beat a given build, does not mean that build or mechanics are not broken.

    Well if you label broken something you dislike, than your statement is true, but very irrelevant. Otherwise, I dont see how broken is the right word in your statement. Stealth is just another mechanic of the game, like block invulnerability, dodge, barrier etc. It is usually used deffesively, but like the others it might be used with some some offensive advantage. It has it's counter in revealed and it can also be rendered useless by your own defensive mechanics, terrain and map awareness, fight intuiton and aoes.

    I wasnt talking specifically about pvp, i just used 2v2s as an example, but be sure the 1v1 potential of a thief is proportionally the same as in pvp even in wvw. Thief might be fairing better in wvw than pvp, but so do the other professions if you know what you are doing. The only real advantage for some yhief builds in wvw is if need be they can run away easyer than in pvp.

    The fact that a very good player can beat another very good player only prooves that you, the one who cries about it, need to learn to be better at your game so you wont feel so desperate when a better player beats you, also to understand that mecanics you want to believe are broken for your own commodity aren't actually that scary if you know what you are doing. Or if you prefere this phrasing: if you are weak you get beaten by things you shouldn't.

    So you are making the claim that the ability to maintain a 90%+ stealth uptime, with the other 10% being when you are attacking, is totally normal and not broken? There is a large difference that you are purposefully ignoring of stealth and perma-stealth. And are trying to frame this as any stealth as broken, which is not, nor is it what I said, I even posted a video as an example so it would be very clear. Maybe we should bring back Ghost trap thief, since none of this is broken so they don't even have to come out of stealth to do DPS.

    Reveal is short lived, and most only have access to a single skill that applies it on a rather long CD, DE now can also remove revealed. Many, like F1 on DH is also targeted, can be dodged etc etc. Block, invulnerability, dodge, barrier do not have a 90%+ uptime, and have more counters than specing into trying to reveal. The fact you mention aoes makes me think you are just a troll, as that is not effective, and the thief would have to willingly stand in stealth in the aoe, having awareness also does little for a stealth fight, as you can't see anything until it lands, and the nature of the game is that it takes a second for the thief to render once out of stealth. The ability to choose when and how a fight plays out, with little to no ability to apply counter pressure outside of when being attacked with Basilisk Venom. I love how defenders of ghost builds always toss down revealed, as one short lived reveal with a cast time and visual sign, is instant death to the thief, but BS or DJ etc from stealth those same people say "just dodge". They never factor or consider the same defenses other classes have, the thief has as well, they have invulnerability, they have dodge, they have evade on skills, and they have block, along with pretty good access to CC and unblockables.

    I am not crying about it but suggesting changes be made for the game mode, I would also not call the player in my video very good, skill level was actually very low, I have fought much better thief/DE stealth builds before that also dealt far more dmg. I posted the video because of how face roll the playing was, same rotation, over and over again waiting to get lucky, or waiting to catch me with the right CD on to win the fight. No class should be able to engage and disengage with such impunity, until they make a mistake or get greedy. As it stands now, the combat terms are 100% on the thief's side. They can at will choose when, where and how it will go, and if they wish to end the fight, they have probably some of the best escape/reset ability in the game.

    I could also beat hybrid mirage before the nerfs as well, that doesn't mean the builds were not absolutely broken.

    I dislike perma-stealth too along with DE's reveal removal, both are things that shouldn't exist in this game in my opinion. I believe I tossed you in with the other "stealth is broken, stealth needs a rework! Stealth hate!" guys who were trashing stealth in general and can't come back and say they were only talking about perma-stealth. I haven't watched the video you posted before, but now that I've watched it all I can say is, I personally don't see anything fun in playing what that thief was playing and also I see nothing fun in chasing after him with a DH, but I guess since you stayed you got some kicks out of it. In the end the viability of that build was revealed (pun intended) and you must admit just staying in stealth doesn't make you broken, stealth doesn't deal dmg in the end. My words of wisdom for that thief in your video: If you need to play like that in the end to just die, you probably aren't doing the right thing, or have too much time to troll around with useless stealth abusing builds. But in the end it was his choice, you can't blame the game for letting people have choices even if some are just bad. The thieves that build for that much stealth (besides the broken 1shot perma stealth DE) can't beat anyone half decent in the game. But the last updates pretty much removed that perma stealth DE that was a bit of cancer from WvW, with the addition of the marked sentries and traps (which in my opinion are stupid design, they went a bit overboard with the traps just to stop DE from abusing stealth, just saying), and also the stacking of sigils of different rarities... cause to my knowledge the most common way for DEs to perma stealth was to stack energy sigils exotic and rare on weapons so the can evade for stealth switch weapons and evade some more to keep it up 100%.

  • Spartacus.3192Spartacus.3192 Member ✭✭✭

    I've said it before stealth in GW2 should be amended as follows.

    1. Stealth default speed should be 66% of normal speed. (when you're sneaking around you should be moving slower than someone who is just running in plain view).
    2. Traits should be able to increase speed in stealth BUT NEVER faster than 100% normal speed.
    3. Swiftness or Superspeed should not affect someone in stealth. ONLY traits can increase movement in stealth.
    4. This way someone with swiftness should be able to out run someone in stealth. I mean come on. Someone sprinting like Usain Bolt should be able to outrun someone trying not be seen.

    This amendment alone will make it such that the stealth player will not want to remain in semi or perma stealth because he will not be able to keep up with someone who doesn't want to fight him.

  • TwiceDead.1963TwiceDead.1963 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 4, 2018

    Yes, you are completely right. Complete Stealth is a garbage mechanic that's boring to fight with and against.

    However, Thief exists. One of Thiefs class-mechanics is based and balanced around Stealth in it's current iteration. If you remove stealth, you have to completely revise how stealth-attacks work for Thieves, and consequently rework/buff the hell out of them since you leave a huge vacuum in their defensive arsenal if you remove it.

    So yeah. Stealth sucks. Even some thieves decide to run S/D Core, which has limited stealth application, in exchange for a more visible but evasive playstyle.

  • @TwiceDead.1963 said:
    Yes, you are completely right. Complete Stealth is a garbage mechanic that's boring to fight with and against.

    However, Thief exists. One of Thiefs class-mechanics is based and balanced around Stealth in it's current iteration. If you remove stealth, you have to completely revise how stealth-attacks work for Thieves, and consequently rework/buff the hell out of them since you leave a huge vacuum in their defensive arsenal if you remove it.

    So yeah. Stealth sucks. Even some thieves decide to run S/D Core, which has limited stealth application, in exchange for a more visible but evasive playstyle.

    Stealth doesn't need to be removed, I know some people would like that, but it's not needed. What is needed are some BUILDS, need to be adjusted to stop it's abuse, it doesn't need to be a blanket change to stealth either, as that will hurt other classes and builds. While core would need some changes over all, it would not hurt builds that don't fully depend on stealth for cheese one hit builds and constant resetting.

    A good example of someone playing a build with minimal stealth use, while still having access to it, however stealth is still available to remove some pressure.

  • TwiceDead.1963TwiceDead.1963 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 4, 2018

    @TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:

    @TwiceDead.1963 said:
    Yes, you are completely right. Complete Stealth is a garbage mechanic that's boring to fight with and against.

    However, Thief exists. One of Thiefs class-mechanics is based and balanced around Stealth in it's current iteration. If you remove stealth, you have to completely revise how stealth-attacks work for Thieves, and consequently rework/buff the hell out of them since you leave a huge vacuum in their defensive arsenal if you remove it.

    So yeah. Stealth sucks. Even some thieves decide to run S/D Core, which has limited stealth application, in exchange for a more visible but evasive playstyle.

    Stealth doesn't need to be removed, I know some people would like that, but it's not needed. What is needed are some BUILDS, need to be adjusted to stop it's abuse, it doesn't need to be a blanket change to stealth either, as that will hurt other classes and builds. While core would need some changes over all, it would not hurt builds that don't fully depend on stealth for cheese one hit builds and constant resetting.

    A good example of someone playing a build with minimal stealth use, while still having access to it, however stealth is still available to remove some pressure.

    I'm not a big fan of stealth-mechanics in general, which is ironic since Thief is one of the classes I play the most. I prefer reactionary pvp duels where both opponents can read one-another. Stealth just takes that away completely leaving the opponent to count seconds, and try to make an accurate guess. At this point it's something I consider a necessary evil for thieves though, as they are ill-suited for straight up brawls.

    This stackable perma-stealth business though, it is absolutely bonkers how easy it is to achieve. I don't have any solutions on offer though, nor should you take what I say too seriously as I am obviously biased against it. Just here, voicing my frustrations.

  • @TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:

    @TwiceDead.1963 said:
    Yes, you are completely right. Complete Stealth is a garbage mechanic that's boring to fight with and against.

    However, Thief exists. One of Thiefs class-mechanics is based and balanced around Stealth in it's current iteration. If you remove stealth, you have to completely revise how stealth-attacks work for Thieves, and consequently rework/buff the hell out of them since you leave a huge vacuum in their defensive arsenal if you remove it.

    So yeah. Stealth sucks. Even some thieves decide to run S/D Core, which has limited stealth application, in exchange for a more visible but evasive playstyle.

    Stealth doesn't need to be removed, I know some people would like that, but it's not needed. What is needed are some BUILDS, need to be adjusted to stop it's abuse, it doesn't need to be a blanket change to stealth either, as that will hurt other classes and builds. While core would need some changes over all, it would not hurt builds that don't fully depend on stealth for cheese one hit builds and constant resetting.

    A good example of someone playing a build with minimal stealth use, while still having access to it, however stealth is still available to remove some pressure.

    Woh, the times when DrD was like that are long gone. In the meanwhile they nerfed the endurance generation a lot, nerfed staff an dp, nerfed PI, nerfed leaps, nerfed dash... so yeah, the next logical step is to kill stealth too...

  • Susy.7529Susy.7529 Member ✭✭✭

    @XenesisII.1540 said:
    Stealth mechanics in this game are one of the worse in pvp settings.
    It will always be terrible because they will never change it since they've built a class entirely around it, the same class they also have hitting single targets the hardest.
    They've put in more reveals, then stealth trap, then a remove reveal, and now added mark, since the beginning for the game to deal with it is enough proof that it was never developed properly for the pvp environment in the first place.

    Anet only puts bandaids over bandaids over bandaids on problems, they will never overhaul this mechanic, they will never balance this mechanic or the classes that overuses it, people will have to accept that.

    Sad but true.

  • Despond.2174Despond.2174 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 5, 2018

    I disagree. They did stealth really well in GW2. You have to work for it usually and there's a massive downside. Thieves are not prime teamfighters, they are horrible at contesting nodes against so many other builds, and even the most cheesy DE perma stealth build against a properly geared/good player is not going to get the dmg they need in their opener. You have to look @ the broader picture, and there are plenty of roaming OP builds that couldn't careless about stealthing or vs a sb/thief/mesmar

    Any stealth/thief/rogue class gets a lot of hate in MMOs because usually there's some skill ceiling to play it well - look @ odl school sub rogues or Ninja in BDO. They can dish out great damage when combo'd but are countered very easily if they even slip up once.

    It would be boring to just have everyone the same, stealth can be balanced. I think D/P thief in SPVP a few seasons ago is the perfect example of balancing a stealth class with enough drawbacks and rewards for excellent play. I mean I agree stuff like Ghost Thief was taking it too far, but they did address that. I think the current DE roam build is cheesy but it IS a gimmick build and has a low rate against any decent player.

    Sometimes you have to put your random experience aside and look at it more objectively. I mean I can just hop on my spellbreaker and just /lol at thieves everywhere I go. Stealth is fine as long as there is some downside with utility, up time on dmg, survival etc. Thieves are hated no matter what happens, even when D/P was perfectly balanced and it took skill people still complained. It would be a boring game if everyone was just a dmg dummy charging in.

  • What I have trouble understanding is, how reveal-skills can be evaded.
    For example detection pulse of sneak-gyro.

    Immersion: you're in stealth and some guy 20m away activates some echolocation device. What do you do to stay in stealth? Barrel Dodge-roll!
    Most AoE reveal skills don't look like you could evade them via a dodge roll and stay in stealth...
    Gamewise: AoE-Reveals are either short duration, on a long CD, highly conditional or only affecting a small area. And most have a pretty easy to tell animation. So, unless the thief missed you or tries to save dodges, it's easy for him to evade the reveal.
    Otherwise the reveal-skills are not really worth taking...

    For conter-play you can't really do more than setting traps and keeping your fingers above the keys you'll need next... or you throw a tantrum, pelt everything around you with AoE and dodge a few times in between for good measures. Must be entertaining for the thief at least.

    Though, against stealthed thiefs, engis "throw mine" is one of the most satisfying skills. Especially with gadgeteer you lay 2 mines below you that will knockback people when they come near. also unblockable and remove a boon. However, since the 12s CD is starting once they are laid out, you can immediatelly throw another two. They are pretty weak and not really useful against anything else, but in those cases it's funny. ^^

  • It was broken in the beginning, it is still broken, and will always be... live with it or change game... I dont like the stealth system but like the game, I just started playing Mesmer and Thief to learn how it works and now I know a regular player will never die playing these classes, just need to be a little smart, so I just ignore both and move away let then get bored,

  • Turk.5460Turk.5460 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @XenoSpyro.1780 said:

    @TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:
    But I thought this kind of play was fun and enjoyable?
    The only reason I got the kill was by baiting him, let him get cocky, as the only way you get the kill is by them over investing, other wise it's just reset after reset.

    Even with a victory, that was the stupidest thing I've ever watched. To think it's worse with braindeadeye.

    How would you fix it? All power Thief iterations are among the squishiest of enemies. I feel that Stealth access should be reduced, but I can't think of a way to compensate Thieves for it, as compensation would absolutely be necessary. More hp perhaps? Maybe adding stability and blocks to certain abilities? More evades?

    Fort Aspenwood
    Jekkies

  • As a primary wvw player, with mesmer (non stealther btw) - I can agree overall the stealth mechanic on thief can be a real pain but ultimately, I like the wvw game mode and won't let the frustration stop me from playing it though there were days post POF when I considered it. I'm not going to delve into what anet should or should not do since we know what that conversation entails. Here are some lessons learned that have helped me mitigate the perma stealthers and in fact, have made wvw more fun at times because it infuriates them to the point of getting insane trolly pms (my response, "sry i didnt just lie there and let you spike me down!") and them even camping spawn to look for rematches or ask for 1v1's:

    1. Never fight Deadeyes in the open. Kite your way to trees, buildings, hills, walls etc while defending only - this allows you to force them into certain lines of sight that you can better predict for your own counters. (the tree branches can also block their camera line of sight for poor UI quality of life too) It's better than giving them a 360 degree field to choose to zero in on you. The central ruins and orchards are great for this if you are near.

    2. If you can, fight them in camps or near keep doorways, preferably yours with ally vet guards. The vets can get in that one hit that gives you the advantage. I've seen it many times where a DE over invests in the zeal for the kill and gets walloped or immobilized by a vet giving me that a crucial 1-2 seconds to burst them down.

    3. Pack stealth disruptors for back stabbers and try to force them into an attack lane that makes them hit you from your front or side. Put the disruptor behind you with access only from the front or side and stand a little in front of it with your back turned but with camera looking behind. Yes, they'll have seen you put it there but it changes the whole fight as they lose their high crit burst from behind and they have to reconsider their tactics. I've had many just waypoint when they see I've set them up to fail.

    4. If they are really troublesome and won't give up pursuit, if you can, go underwater. 9/10 times from my experience, they won't follow.

    Happy hunting!

  • Fat Disgrace.4275Fat Disgrace.4275 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @MesmerizedNYC.2479 said:
    As a primary wvw player, with mesmer (non stealther btw) - I can agree overall the stealth mechanic on thief can be a real pain but ultimately, I like the wvw game mode and won't let the frustration stop me from playing it though there were days post POF when I considered it. I'm not going to delve into what anet should or should not do since we know what that conversation entails. Here are some lessons learned that have helped me mitigate the perma stealthers and in fact, have made wvw more fun at times because it infuriates them to the point of getting insane trolly pms (my response, "sry i didnt just lie there and let you spike me down!") and them even camping spawn to look for rematches or ask for 1v1's:

    1. Never fight Deadeyes in the open. Kite your way to trees, buildings, hills, walls etc while defending only - this allows you to force them into certain lines of sight that you can better predict for your own counters. (the tree branches can also block their camera line of sight for poor UI quality of life too) It's better than giving them a 360 degree field to choose to zero in on you. The central ruins and orchards are great for this if you are near.

    2. If you can, fight them in camps or near keep doorways, preferably yours with ally vet guards. The vets can get in that one hit that gives you the advantage. I've seen it many times where a DE over invests in the zeal for the kill and gets walloped or immobilized by a vet giving me that a crucial 1-2 seconds to burst them down.

    3. Pack stealth disruptors for back stabbers and try to force them into an attack lane that makes them hit you from your front or side. Put the disruptor behind you with access only from the front or side and stand a little in front of it with your back turned but with camera looking behind. Yes, they'll have seen you put it there but it changes the whole fight as they lose their high crit burst from behind and they have to reconsider their tactics. I've had many just waypoint when they see I've set them up to fail.

    4. If they are really troublesome and won't give up pursuit, if you can, go underwater. 9/10 times from my experience, they won't follow.

    Happy hunting!

    Under water thief does actually hurt now with the changes to scyhe.

  • Burnfall.9573Burnfall.9573 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 6, 2018

    " Time discovers truth "

    Here is a thief player video guild on thief traits, mechanic. He states that every skill based around stealth as being "Ridiculous"
    (sure the video shouldn't being taken too seriously but the truth stands, Thief is a bad design fail that no other competitive game company would dare implement nor tolerate in their game
    (Even former Anet would dare not dream in implementing it in Guild Wars 1. Such shame really as a game "everything you like about Guild Wars you will like in Guild Wars 2"

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guild_Wars

    Godspeed Guild Wars; the memories, putting the players best interests in mind first, implementing a healthy competitive environment for each and all players alike, lastly having a clear vision with regular updates to keep a watchful eyes on Op builds, bugs and exploits........you will never be replaced.

  • TwiceDead.1963TwiceDead.1963 Member ✭✭✭

    @NuhDah.9812 said:
    Woh, the times when DrD was like that are long gone. In the meanwhile they nerfed the endurance generation a lot, nerfed staff an dp, nerfed PI, nerfed leaps, nerfed dash... so yeah, the next logical step is to kill stealth too...

    Honestly if they did, I wouldn't mind, but they would have to rework a lot of thief. There's another problem with removing stealth though and that's class identity.
    If you remove stealth and buff thief in other ways to compensate such as Health and stability access, you'll just end up with a more agile Warrior, at which point it's become more of a subclass.

  • NuhDah.9812NuhDah.9812 Member ✭✭
    edited December 6, 2018

    @TwiceDead.1963 said:

    @NuhDah.9812 said:
    Woh, the times when DrD was like that are long gone. In the meanwhile they nerfed the endurance generation a lot, nerfed staff an dp, nerfed PI, nerfed leaps, nerfed dash... so yeah, the next logical step is to kill stealth too...

    Honestly if they did, I wouldn't mind, but they would have to rework a lot of thief. There's another problem with removing stealth though and that's class identity.
    If you remove stealth and buff thief in other ways to compensate such as Health and stability access, you'll just end up with a more agile Warrior, at which point it's become more of a subclass.

    Identity aside, I personally can't approve of removing/changing a game mechanic that works just fine for people who don't even try to understand it, but condemn it for being broken. It's true, I play thief, posibly my opinion is biased, but I also fight against players who use stealth, and have absolutely no issue in dealing with it and have fun while doing it. It's true, I sometimes get nuked, it's true that sometimes I get defeated, but I've killed enough players that were using stealth or were being in stealth, to know there is nothing broken about it. The only thing that can be considered broken is 100% stealth uptime, but stealth otherwise is just fine.

  • Turk.5460Turk.5460 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Aza.2105 said:

    @zerorogue.9410 said:
    The stealth mechanic at it's base is not that bad. The idea of having a class that can go invisible has been in rpgs for years, if not since the very beginning.

    Yes but a it has no place in a competitive setting. At least not in this form. When you look at a successful competitive game like overwatch. Sombra has stealth but its balanced by the fact that she isn't very strong. Her tool kit revolves around flanking and deception. She can not come out of stealth and one shot you. Like wise the Spy from TF2 has a similar playstyle. That it revolves around flanking and deception, except he could one shot you with his knife. But to do that you had to meet requirements (i.e stand behind the target and melee range) and even then it was risky because you are unstealthed after wards and the will likely be killed.

    Now look at GW2 stealth. Both classes have high access to evade, extremely high damage from range, can weave in and out of stealth, has the ability to disengage at will, is relatively tanky due to lots of evade frames.

    Stealth is unbalanced in GW2 because of the tool kit that surrounds it. Its like giving bastion mobility and the ability to stealth. It just doesn't make sense. At this point in time I'd say the damage is done. I do not think Anet will ever address the problem. Its been over 6 years and they still have not.

    GW2 is not a FPS. You cannot compare a FPS with "Move, Shoot, Alternate Shoot, Alternate Alternate Shoot" with a MMO that has traits, gear stats, at least 11 different abilities the player can activate, and vastly more complex combat mechanics.

    If you want to make a comparison that even remotely holds water, try making a comparison from WoW or another MMO.

    Fort Aspenwood
    Jekkies

  • Solori.6025Solori.6025 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ProverbsofHell.2307 said:
    I remember in City of Heroes, there was a thief class called Stalker which could one-shot you.

    But there were a few ways it was manageable... first, the Stalker would have access to ONE skill it could use from stealth to instakill - Assassin's Strike. You would need to get into melee range, and then begin the length cast time (say 2 and half seconds). As soon as you cast the skill, the Stalker would be revealed, giving you a brief window to use control effects to stop it. If you moved away, and the Stalker finished the cast, you would still take the damage. But in Guild Wars, you could dodge or use a CD, improving that issue which was in CoH.

    Oooff unless you played CoH/V after the mass pvp exodus of i13
    That was not how energy stalkers worked in competitive pvp environments.

    Superjump and superspeed were the go to movement options of choice.
    A stalker would superspeed past you, start the animation of assassins strike and as long as the animation started ( and I believe it had to last either 1/4 of a second or 3/4 of a second) you would get hit with the Assassins strike. Meaning, you could be jumping in the air, and land for not even a second and as soon as you were a good 20-30 ft away you either died or got all your health taken away. God help you if you took any damage before then because then they could just run past you and use Total Focus ( the skill that had you use both hands in the air and slam down, was great made you look like the hulk beefin on ninjas) and kill you anyway.
    Then they had placate- a get out of free card that would let them redo this. I'll try and find a vid of it, CoH was love glad to see another player from their :D

    Tingle my stingleberry

  • @Solori.6025 said:

    @ProverbsofHell.2307 said:
    I remember in City of Heroes, there was a thief class called Stalker which could one-shot you.

    But there were a few ways it was manageable... first, the Stalker would have access to ONE skill it could use from stealth to instakill - Assassin's Strike. You would need to get into melee range, and then begin the length cast time (say 2 and half seconds). As soon as you cast the skill, the Stalker would be revealed, giving you a brief window to use control effects to stop it. If you moved away, and the Stalker finished the cast, you would still take the damage. But in Guild Wars, you could dodge or use a CD, improving that issue which was in CoH.

    Oooff unless you played CoH/V after the mass pvp exodus of i13
    That was not how energy stalkers worked in competitive pvp environments.

    Superjump and superspeed were the go to movement options of choice.
    A stalker would superspeed past you, start the animation of assassins strike and as long as the animation started ( and I believe it had to last either 1/4 of a second or 3/4 of a second) you would get hit with the Assassins strike. Meaning, you could be jumping in the air, and land for not even a second and as soon as you were a good 20-30 ft away you either died or got all your health taken away. God help you if you took any damage before then because then they could just run past you and use Total Focus ( the skill that had you use both hands in the air and slam down, was great made you look like the hulk beefin on ninjas) and kill you anyway.
    Then they had placate- a get out of free card that would let them redo this. I'll try and find a vid of it, CoH was love glad to see another player from their :D

    I did actually leave the game during i9 after playing since US beta launch, but yeah I did mention if you moved off and the stalker finished casting, you'd still take damage. But in GW2 it wouldn't be so bad, because you have invulnerabilities you could use etc. Also yes it's always great to see a fellow CoH player!

  • Klypto.1703Klypto.1703 Member ✭✭✭

    Bleh the people who complain about stealth also complain about anything else they don't know or don't care to learn how to fight against. So if this were to happen they would just find something else that I killed them with to QQ about. Especially rofl I go on rev and I was like you saw me coming right but then they go oh yer able to react too fast with rev and we go back to square one were they don't realize its not the class its not the stealth its you.

  • Inoki.6048Inoki.6048 Member ✭✭✭

    @XenesisII.1540 said:
    Stealth mechanics in this game are one of the worse in pvp settings.
    It will always be terrible because they will never change it since they've built a class entirely around it, the same class they also have hitting single targets the hardest.
    They've put in more reveals, then stealth trap, then a remove reveal, and now added mark, since the beginning for the game to deal with it is enough proof that it was never developed properly for the pvp environment in the first place.

    Anet only puts bandaids over bandaids over bandaids on problems, they will never overhaul this mechanic, they will never balance this mechanic or the classes that overuses it, people will have to accept that.

    Completely agree with this. If they'd remove stealth, Deadeye would either need to go, or they would have to give them very long range radius (2k+ perhaps) to make them a proper sniping class without stealth and in close combat, well, either improved mobility (not more dodges, but somehow tweaked base speed with movement-impairment negating effects), or semi-cloaking abilities, like when you equip Trapper runes and get a bit of Superspeed and a bit of Stealth as a form of cloaking to blend temporarily with the environment to allow them to retreat.

    As a sniper spec the focus should be heavy damage on long range, but I think it's hard to implement. While a spec like this is good for the FPS genre, I can see how it would annoy many people. Many newbies wouldn't dare enter WvW with a sniper on every higher rock waiting for them since gliding was introduced. They would never make it past the sentries at spawn points.

  • @Kylden Ar.3724 said:

    @Rayya.2591 said:
    stealth shoudn't make you invisible
    An example from other game : https://bnetcmsus-a.akamaihd.net/cms/content_folder_media/9f/9FARDCNDARAU1511386715378.gif


    I almost agree with that.

    @kash.9213 said:

    Stealth is an opener and an escape, what is there to tweak? If you don't want to watch people going into and out of stealth, then have fun watching me saunter over to you with my new sustainable traits/skills/utilities as a replacement that I can now actually do damage under the effects of the entire time and enjoy a Death's Judgement in your face. I can play with either stealth or sustain, think on it for a min and decide if you'd be fine with either and be honest about it after considering what the changes to the class would look like to have comparable sustainability, your complaints would almost instantly start looking like the complaints thieves have about other classes.

    Yeah, Stealth is a primary defense tool for 2 classes. Both of which are high burst (Theif, Mesmer). I am not sure people know what they are asking for if they take away stealth from those classes, cause it would need to be replaced with a different defense option (read: more sustain).

    Stealth is defense without damage reduction (by making you harder to notice or hit). If they gave us more defense WITH damage reduction, well, Mesmer is already insane there, and I can't imagine Daredevils with even more dodge/defense.

    so both actually need stealth because of all their sustain, dodges and defenses. Well, just another reason to remove this entirely broken mechanic - without replacement.

  • Kylden Ar.3724Kylden Ar.3724 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 13, 2018

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:

    @Kylden Ar.3724 said:

    @Rayya.2591 said:
    stealth shoudn't make you invisible
    An example from other game : https://bnetcmsus-a.akamaihd.net/cms/content_folder_media/9f/9FARDCNDARAU1511386715378.gif


    I almost agree with that.

    @kash.9213 said:

    Stealth is an opener and an escape, what is there to tweak? If you don't want to watch people going into and out of stealth, then have fun watching me saunter over to you with my new sustainable traits/skills/utilities as a replacement that I can now actually do damage under the effects of the entire time and enjoy a Death's Judgement in your face. I can play with either stealth or sustain, think on it for a min and decide if you'd be fine with either and be honest about it after considering what the changes to the class would look like to have comparable sustainability, your complaints would almost instantly start looking like the complaints thieves have about other classes.

    Yeah, Stealth is a primary defense tool for 2 classes. Both of which are high burst (Theif, Mesmer). I am not sure people know what they are asking for if they take away stealth from those classes, cause it would need to be replaced with a different defense option (read: more sustain).

    Stealth is defense without damage reduction (by making you harder to notice or hit). If they gave us more defense WITH damage reduction, well, Mesmer is already insane there, and I can't imagine Daredevils with even more dodge/defense.

    so both actually need stealth because of all their sustain, dodges and defenses. Well, just another reason to remove this entirely broken mechanic - without replacement.

    You're clearly not understanding the impact, you're just mad about a mechanic you haven't learned to counter play.

    The current stealth package is PART of their defense WITHOUT being Sustain (because it only prevents damage at range, and if you're not trying to cleave/anticipate their burst you are doing it wrong). If you remove it, you either

    1) Replace with MORE SUSTAIN which makes them even more frustrating.

    2) Replace with more BURST/DPS, cause clearly you want to be one shot more, right?

    Also, let go dude. It was a 5 day old thread.

    Leader of PvE/WvW Havoc Guild - Tyrian Adventure Corporation [TACO] - Kaineng since the start, and till KN is no more.

    Do not fear simplification of the game, there is elegance in simplicity that allows more time for playing and less time building.

  • BlaqueFyre.5678BlaqueFyre.5678 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Spartacus.3192 said:
    tbh i dont mind stealth as a mechanic what i dont like is how ANET implemented it. It lasts too long and ANET gave traits that give too many buffs while in stealth. Also what the heck is it with moving "faster" in stealth? That just doesn't make sense. If you're trying to sneak around and not be seen you shouldn't be able to move faster than if you were just sprinting unstealthed. The last game i played did stealth right. They made it so you moved at 66% of normal speed while in stealth. You need to trait it just to be able to move at normal speed. You could NEVER move faster than normal speed while stealthed. That way if you tried to perma stealth you could never catch someone who was trying to run away from you. That in itself is a good counter.

    The only thing I like other games and lore, Thieves Stealth isn’t them trying to be sneaky, they are using Shadow magic to make them invisible no need to try sneak around slowly when you are just using magic to make you invisible.

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