Sylvari & The Dragons Predicament

So... A few thoughts ran through my mind with the developments in the story and the revelations that occurred.

It's a well known fact that Sylvari are dragon minions of Mordremoth, ever since HOT's release.Fair enough.Prior to such upon Zhaitan's death, his minions grew stronger; not weaker.Following upon that, Zhaitan's death also made Mordemoth and his minions stronger as well.

Fast forward to the end of HOT, the Sylvari are 'freed' essentially and Mordy is killed. Thus empowering the other dragons and their minions as well.The dragon's and their minions grow more powerful with the death of another dragon or ley line energy. Except one case.

The Sylvari.Why are Sylvari excluded from this effect and why?They would have absorbed some of said magicks much like Aurene and other minions, would they not? (although to a lesser scale.)It doesn't make sense a dragon would exclude a minion of theirs biologically from retaining this effect and make them stronger.Everything else about them shows they ARE like other minions, including their immunity of corruption.AND if we include Balthazar, even his magic spread to the others and he didn't even possess dragon magic.

Is this simply something that was an oversight that they failed to think of, or do you feel this was intentional for some reason?

Did all minions grow stronger, or just the champions?

@perilisk.1874 said:Did all minions grow stronger, or just the champions?

Most of the lesser minions also inherited the fallen dragon archetypes. I think Ember Bay showed the fusion the most prominently.But the champions were typically shown to be even more so. However, in regards to prior minions of dead dragons; it was more so implied I think.

Maybe because the Sylvari are not really created by Mordremoth? (Yes I know what a Dev has said about them) Maybe he only claimed them to be his since they are plants and he claims ownership over all plant live. For all we really know the Sylvari could of been creations of Melandru since they do share quite a similar appearance to the Avatars of Melandru. The inquest are pretty much the closest thing we have in game to dragon minion experts and they are shown in LS2 experimenting on Sylvari. Since the inquest know so much about the energies, if the Sylvari where really dragon minions. Why would the Inquest stay quiet about it and not use the info as a way to take full control of Rata Sum and get the other three races to follow the Inquest ? (Just a theory )

They don't have any dragon champions or other way to consume magic like the minions do. Don't champions cause the minions to become stronger? Or "motivate" them? Sylvari lack that. Only way they get enhanced is if they turn into full-on Mordrem, who I'd just call corrupted Sylvari. They are the true dragon minions.

I thought that minions didn't grow stronger, until they were taken over by the replacement dragon; that's what granted extra powers. Some minions in Orr (Siren's Landing) became "unchained," free of zhaitan, but not claimed by any other dragon.

The minions don't absorb the magic (although there will be a couple of exceptions - eg Tequatl). In general they are given extra powers/domains via the Dragon controlling them who actually is the one absorbing the magic in its majority. It wouldn't make any sense for the Sylvari to increase in power or gain new abilities since there is nothing to directly feed them such magic.

You can (potentially) see this in effect with Primordus as normal destroyers appear in PoF post his being put back to pre-awakened state, so there seems to be a correlation between Elder Dragon activity/magic levels and the strength of minions.

@starhunter.6015 said:Maybe because the Sylvari are not really created by Mordremoth? (Yes I know what a Dev has said about them)May I get the source? I'm actually quite curious since such information was quite unknown to me.

Why would the Inquest stay quiet about it and not use the info as a way to take full control of Rata Sum and get the other three races to follow the Inquest ? (Just a theory )Well, they've been studying such for a long while. I assume the setbacks (caithe and co murdering them, thrumanova exploding) and such prevented them from forming a complete hypothesis. Plus, the Inquest were never one to share info. Taking control would have been an option had they not been stopped and crippled.

On the other hand, whilst I agree with many of the points; what about the Mother Tree? Whilst she was blessed by the centaurs, the seed itself? Wouldn't that make her more like Glint? (Assuming of course we're basing this on them being dragon minions now.) She's also a direct connection to the Sylvari.

@Talonblaze.3175 said:

@perilisk.1874 said:Did all minions grow stronger, or just the champions?

Right -- it was outright stated for Tequatl, but he was a champion. We don't have any other concrete data on minions of dead dragons. Minions of living dragons, is a different matter, but the implication has been that their Dragon changed them, rather than that they changed themselves.

It's questionable if Sylvari even count as true dragon minions. If we assume that the Pale Tree was somehow purified, then one could argue that the Sylvari, especially the Firstborn, are analogous to Glint's scions, and yet Vlast and Aurene aren't Kraalkatorik's minions.

In practice, rituals that purify dragon corruption seem to result in the subject (and any descendants) developing an individual living soul, such that Glint and Sylvari can pass on to the Mists. It's unclear whether that would be true of dragon minions, though they do see to have some individuality.

It seems like Mordremoth didn't physically corrupt Sylvari so much as he used his unique abilities to mentally dominate them through the Dream that they were both connected to -- the resulting physical changes were something Sylvari were naturally capable of (per Canach's shifting appearance over time, for example).

Maybe they did actually get affected by the magic becoming unbound. Individual Sylvari are small though so they wouldn't be soaking up the magic like Tequatl could and the magic that had been digested by an elder dragon may not be compatible with Sylvari. They're not like chak with a magic digesting organ of their own. Isn't there also a side story after going to Bloodstone Fen where the pc is suffering from a magic overload, causing visions of ley line anomalies to appear?

@starhunter.6015 said:Maybe because the Sylvari are not really created by Mordremoth? (Yes I know what a Dev has said about them) Maybe he only claimed them to be his since they are plants and he claims ownership over all plant live. For all we really know the Sylvari could of been creations of Melandru since they do share quite a similar appearance to the Avatars of Melandru. The inquest are pretty much the closest thing we have in game to dragon minion experts and they are shown in LS2 experimenting on Sylvari. Since the inquest know so much about the energies, if the Sylvari where really dragon minions. Why would the Inquest stay quiet about it and not use the info as a way to take full control of Rata Sum and get the other three races to follow the Inquest ? (Just a theory )

eh, we know for sure that the Pale Tree is a cleansed Blighting Tree. And as such, the sylvari indeed are dragon minions and the Pale Tree a dragon champion.

But the Pale Tree might also be the answer to the question. She was almost dead after the attack on her. But after Modremoth's death she recupperated a lot. Maybe she did absorb a lot of the power, healing her up by some degree? The sylvari are far removed from Mordremoth by indirection to not receive any - and all the other minions... do they grow stronger , when a dragon dies, or do only the champions and newly created minions get stronger?

@perilisk.1874 said:

@Talonblaze.3175 said:

@perilisk.1874 said:Did all minions grow stronger, or just the champions?

or the former mordrem-guard-turned-back-to-normal-sylvari during the festival of the four winds.

Sylvari are able to change their appearance. And we know for sure that after mordremoth's death at least some reverted to their former self.

@Talonblaze.3175 said:

@"starhunter.6015" said:Maybe because the Sylvari are not really created by Mordremoth? (Yes I know what a Dev has said about them)May I get the source? I'm actually quite curious since such information was quite unknown to me.

Why would the Inquest stay quiet about it and not use the info as a way to take full control of Rata Sum and get the other three races to follow the Inquest ? (Just a theory )Well, they've been studying such for a long while. I assume the setbacks (caithe and co murdering them, thrumanova exploding) and such prevented them from forming a complete hypothesis. Plus, the Inquest were never one to share info. Taking control would have been an option had they not been stopped and crippled.

Ignore Starhunters post, Devs have stated they're dragon minions (also explains why Zhaitan could not corrupt the Sylvari) ergo they're Dragon Minions. The Sylvari around now are those who rejected the call of Mordremoth, so they didn't get any "power ups" from him. Only those under his thrall could have had those had he been left alive and Kralk dead instead, received a bigger boon in power.

@Talonblaze.3175 said:Fast forward to the end of HOT, the Sylvari are 'freed' essentially and Mordy is killed. Thus empowering the other dragons and their minions as well.The dragon's and their minions grow more powerful with the death of another dragon or ley line energy. Except one case.

The Sylvari.Why are Sylvari excluded from this effect and why?

Not all dragon minions were empowered. Take Primordus, who got the most empowerment from Zhaitan and Mordremoth. In Season 3 we deal almost exclusively with the empowered destroyers, however, in Path of Fire's Desert Highlands we see non-empowered destroyers. We see more non-empowered destroyers in Sandswept Isle (Inquest experiments) and in Mythwright Gambit (Qadim's menagerie).

Turn to the branded - very few of them are Death-Branded even in Episode 4, despite them being full of brand-new branded. So while it's unclear whether or not old minions can be empowered, we know for certain that the Elder Dragon must choose to make their minions empowered by the dead Elder Dragons' domains.

Naturally, Mordremoth would not empower the sylvari who have not fallen to him with death magic. And without an Elder Dragon, they have only the Pale Tree to possibly empower the sylvari with death magic after HoT, though with the hints that plant and death magic are opposites, it's probably not a good idea to do such anyways.

@Talonblaze.3175 said:

1. They would have absorbed some of said magicks much like Aurene and other minions, would they not? (although to a lesser scale.)
2. It doesn't make sense a dragon would exclude a minion of theirs biologically from retaining this effect and make them stronger.
3. Everything else about them shows they ARE like other minions, including their immunity of corruption.
4. AND if we include Balthazar, even his magic spread to the others and he didn't even possess dragon magic.

1. No. There is zero evidence anywhere that the sylvari absorb magic like dragon minions do. Whether this is because they don't know how to or the Pale Tree made them incapable is unclear. This is actually one of the massive contradictions that makes the reveal make no sense - there's a number of other factors that differentiate sylvari from even mordrem let alone other dragon minions.
2. Given that we see Primordus, Jormag, and Kralkatorrik not making all of their minions death / plant infused, there's obviously reason for them to exclude such. And the sylvari have no Elder Dragon anymore, nor would Mordremoth empower his enemies even if they were potential slaves.
3. Dragon minions are not immune to corruption of other Elder Dragons. See: Subject Alpha, Kudu's Monster, Kudu, and Subject Beta. The sylvari's immunity comes from the Dream, which no other dragon minions (and indeed not even all sylvari) show a connection to.
4. Technically he did, he took in the Maguuma Bloodstone's magic, which was empowered by Zhaitan's and especially Mordremoth's deaths and magic. He also absorbed magic from Primordus and Jormag. He had little to no magic of his own. But even then, almost all of his magic he released was absorbed by Aurene and Kralkatorrik. Given the lore on Jormag getting a lot less Zhaitan and Mordremoth magic due to distance, the Pale Tree would get practically no Balthazar magic, let alone Jormag.

@starhunter.6015 said:Maybe because the Sylvari are not really created by Mordremoth? (Yes I know what a Dev has said about them) Maybe he only claimed them to be his since they are plants and he claims ownership over all plant live. For all we really know the Sylvari could of been creations of Melandru since they do share quite a similar appearance to the Avatars of Melandru.

They were created by a cleansed dragon champion of his (the Pale Tree). They are as much created by Mordremoth as your typical Risen Thrall is by Zhaitan even if they were raised by a local dragon champion.

The whole "Mordremoth could influence sylvari because they're plants" was the red herring presented during Season 2 (which, tbh, would have made much, much more sense than them being dragon minions given the numerous contradictions between sylvari and dragon minions such as the whole "sylvari don't absorb magic" or "sylvari don't have a hive mind", etc. things).

Also, while they may not be original creations of Mordremoth, but the Pale Tree('s seeds) being corrupted from pre-existing plant monsters, there's no evidence to suggest they were made by Melandru, especially given that most divine magic seems incorruptable/nonconsumable by the Elder Dragons and their minions. If they were originally made by Melandru, then by all lore, Mordremoth should not have been capable of corrupting them for them to be purified at some unknown point by some unknown force. If Melandru is at all related, I'd suspect that she's the origin of the Dream (we still don't know the Dream's origin...).

@starhunter.6015 said:The inquest are pretty much the closest thing we have in game to dragon minion experts and they are shown in LS2 experimenting on Sylvari. Since the inquest know so much about the energies, if the Sylvari where really dragon minions. Why would the Inquest stay quiet about it and not use the info as a way to take full control of Rata Sum and get the other three races to follow the Inquest ? (Just a theory )

You're mistaking the Statics of 1304/1305 AE for the Inquest, where asura first studied sylvari. Furthermore, Inquest aren't really fond of sharing their knowledge, and if you go to Crucible of Eternity, Zone Green is full of sylvari creations (summoned husks and nightmare hounds). Even if they did spread such a theoretical relation, that wouldn't be sufficient to get full control of Rata Sum anyways, let alone getting the other inferior races (from their viewpoint) to follow them.

@Randulf.7614 said:The minions don't absorb the magic (although there will be a couple of exceptions - eg Tequatl).

@perilisk.1874 said:Right -- it was outright stated for Tequatl, but he was a champion. We don't have any other concrete data on minions of dead dragons. Minions of living dragons, is a different matter, but the implication has been that their Dragon changed them, rather than that they changed themselves.

Erm...

• https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Test_Subject
• https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Field_Test
• https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Magic_Sucks
• https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Megadestroyer
• https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Concordia_Incident
• https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Champion_Imbued_Aberration_(branded)
• https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Champion_Imbued_Aberration_(destroyer)
• https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Champion_Imbued_Aberration_(icebrood)

All cases of dragon minions absorbing magic directly, and five of them are also cases of the minions increasing in power...

@perilisk.1874 said:It's questionable if Sylvari even count as true dragon minions. If we assume that the Pale Tree was somehow purified, then one could argue that the Sylvari, especially the Firstborn, are analogous to Glint's scions, and yet Vlast and Aurene aren't Kraalkatorik's minions.

Technically, Aurene and Vlast are. After all, Kralkatorrik's unique weakness is branded crystals, and Vlast/Aurene still count to that weakness. Sylvari and Glint and co. are kind of akin to the Unchained at the moment - dragon minions without their will enslaved to their respective Elder Dragon.

@"Its Nerfing Time.1495" said:Ignore Starhunters post, Devs have stated they're dragon minions (also explains why Zhaitan could not corrupt the Sylvari) ergo they're Dragon Minions. The Sylvari around now are those who rejected the call of Mordremoth, so they didn't get any "power ups" from him. Only those under his thrall could have had those had he been left alive and Kralk dead instead, received a bigger boon in power.

Sylvari who fell to Mordremoth's brainwashing have (somewhat) returned back to normal as we saw during Festival of the Four Winds. Also, as mentioned above, sylvari immunity was stated to be due to the Dream and, more directly, "the Pale Tree's protection". But due to also being connected to the Dream, Mordremoth was able to bypass that protection and do some more traditional brainwashing rather than corruption.

By all technicality, as perlisk said, Mordremoth didn't corrupt sylvari.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@starhunter.6015 said:For all we really know the Sylvari could of been creations of Melandru since they do share quite a similar appearance to the Avatars of Melandru.

Anyway, I hope we get to know it someday. The origins of the Dream, what's the Nightmare, who or what cleansed the Pale Tree's seed, the deal with Malyck and why's he an Omen...

@"Dall.9752" said:The Druids and the Sylvari were initially supposed to have a connection (some of it remains, such as the Summon Druid Spirit racial skill and the Brisban Wildlands loading screen art). I don't know if Melandru created the Druids or she simply looked after them, as they cared for the land as much as she did, but if the Sylvari were to have a connection to one it'd make sense for them to also be connected to the other. Who knows, Balthazar had the Fissure of Woe, Grenth the Underworld, perhaps the Dream is Melandru's.

The druids were humans (and other races, though less so) that had undergone a ritual to lose their original body to become like treants and then to lose those and become spiritual.

Given that sylvari were, supposedly, always to be dragon minions from the get go (and that such wasn't derived from the bandwagoning despite the numerous contradictions), any connection between sylvari and druid would likely be tied to the Pale Tree's seed (and likely the whole cave given Malyck) being purified. It'd make sense, given that the druids are apparently able to counteract Mordremoth's influence in the jungle per this event's completion scene.

I wouldn't really expect to learn anything more about the sylvari except small tidbits, tbh. Anet has a habit of completely dropping plot threads once their chance comes (let alone when it's long gone like sylvari stuff). You'd need about a dozen hands to count the plot hooks surrounding Krytan politics and the mursaat that were never touched upon or at least never concluded when Anet got to the plot in S3.

@"Its Nerfing Time.1495" said:Ignore Starhunters post, Devs have stated they're dragon minions (also explains why Zhaitan could not corrupt the Sylvari) ergo they're Dragon Minions. The Sylvari around now are those who rejected the call of Mordremoth, so they didn't get any "power ups" from him. Only those under his thrall could have had those had he been left alive and Kralk dead instead, received a bigger boon in power.

And yet one dragon can't corrupt another's minions?

In terms of Mordremoth not corrupting them, if he brainwashed them and/or they answered his call - how is it not corruption?

@Its Nerfing Time.1495 said:

@Its Nerfing Time.1495 said:Ignore Starhunters post, Devs have stated they're dragon minions (also explains why Zhaitan could not corrupt the Sylvari) ergo they're Dragon Minions. The Sylvari around now are those who rejected the call of Mordremoth, so they didn't get any "power ups" from him. Only those under his thrall could have had those had he been left alive and Kralk dead instead, received a bigger boon in power.

I believe it’s because they are already dragon minions. They can be brainwashed, but they can’t be corrupted in a traditional sense because technically there isn’t anything to corrupt. Much like if Zhaitan were to call out to the unchained, they wouldn’t be corrupted.

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Its Nerfing Time.1495 said:

@Its Nerfing Time.1495 said:Ignore Starhunters post, Devs have stated they're dragon minions (also explains why Zhaitan could not corrupt the Sylvari) ergo they're Dragon Minions. The Sylvari around now are those who rejected the call of Mordremoth, so they didn't get any "power ups" from him. Only those under his thrall could have had those had he been left alive and Kralk dead instead, received a bigger boon in power.

Yes, but they're Mordremoths minions, so in a way I suppose it makes sense if they're already corrupted and he just calls out to them.

@Its Nerfing Time.1495 said:And yet one dragon can't corrupt another's minions?

Nowhere is this ever stated, anywhere, in the game. It is pure player speculation and nothing more. In fact, we have three prime examples of cases where an individual is influenced by multiple Elder Dragons' corruptive energies - Subject Alpha, Kudu's Monster, and Subject Beta.

@Its Nerfing Time.1495 said:In terms of Mordremoth not corrupting them, if he brainwashed them and/or they answered his call - how is it not corruption?

Dragon corruption is a magical effect that permanently transforms an individual physically as well as enslaves their will. What Mordremoth did was bombard sylvari with thoughts designed to be interpreted as their own so that they would willingly turn to serve Mordremoth.

The primary difference is the existence of free will - sylvari, and Mordrem Guard, have free will. Mordrem do not.

@Its Nerfing Time.1495 said:

@"Tyson.5160" said:I believe it’s because they are already dragon minions. They can be brainwashed, but they can’t be corrupted in a traditional sense because technically there isn’t anything to corrupt. Much like if Zhaitan were to call out to the unchained, they wouldn’t be corrupted.

Elder Dragons can corrupt their own purified minions.

The facets were creations of Glint - effectively purified branded made from the environment, like Crystal Guardians and Crystal Spiders - and this one was corrupted by the Brand, even drops branded champion loot bags, just like Glint's lair is being slowly branded.

They seem more resilient to corruption, but not immune.

In theory, Malyck and his tree would be fully succceptable to being corrupted by Mordremoth. It's stated several times that what protects sylvari from Elder Dragon corruption is the Dream - or more specifically "the Pale Tree's protection" - even after the reveal of their origin:

only a combination of immense willpower and the protection of the Pale Tree can prevent Mordremoth from taking control.

The method Mordremoth uses, ironically, is the very same protection against corruption:

Sylvari receive calls to action in the form of the Wyld Hunt—or the Dark Hunt, for Nightmare Courtiers—and these compulsions act as an access point for Mordremoth’s influence.

and

Pact Commander: Then we destroy the root: Mordremoth's mind. Its strongest attacks come from its mind, from the Dream. That's our target.Canach: Sound strategy, Commander. Turn the tables and attack the dragon the same way it's been attacking us? Brilliant.https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hearts_and_Minds#Entering_the_lair

The Dream is what prevents corruption, not their existence as dragon minions.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Its Nerfing Time.1495 said:And yet one dragon can't corrupt another's minions?

@Its Nerfing Time.1495 said:In terms of Mordremoth not corrupting them, if he brainwashed them and/or they answered his call - how is it not corruption?

@Its Nerfing Time.1495 said:

@"Tyson.5160" said:I believe it’s because they are already dragon minions. They can be brainwashed, but they can’t be corrupted in a traditional sense because technically there isn’t anything to corrupt. Much like if Zhaitan were to call out to the unchained, they wouldn’t be corrupted.

only a combination of immense willpower and the protection of the Pale Tree can prevent Mordremoth from taking control.

Sylvari receive calls to action in the form of the Wyld Hunt—or the Dark Hunt, for Nightmare Courtiers—and these compulsions act as an access point for Mordremoth’s influence.

Pact Commander: Then we destroy the root: Mordremoth's mind. Its strongest attacks come from its mind,

from the Dream

. That's our target.Canach: Sound strategy, Commander. Turn the tables and

attack the dragon the same way it's been attacking us

? Brilliant.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hearts_and_Minds#Entering_the_lair

I guess Diarmid is a bit of different situation too as she was killed during the Pact assault, placed into a Blighting Pod and recreated as a Mordremoth Commander. With Mordremoth using death magic, this probably is one of those incidents that free will doesn’t apply.

The three Mordrem Guard Commanders are a bit weird due to them being reborn constantly. I believe it was said that their mind was placed into a new body by Mordremoth using his mind domain and their connection to the Dream, but there's no real saying on whether their free will was affected by this or not. Same goes for Faolain, who's body was grotesquely altered.

Of course, since all four were killed shortly before Mordremoth was, they are all dead now so we won't really ever know.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:I wouldn't really expect to learn anything more about the sylvari except small tidbits, tbh. Anet has a habit of completely dropping plot threads once their chance comes (let alone when it's long gone like sylvari stuff). You'd need about a dozen hands to count the plot hooks surrounding Krytan politics and the mursaat that were never touched upon or at least never concluded when Anet got to the plot in S3.

And we all better pray that it stays this way instead of them getting the same level of quality epilogue the Mursaat had to go through. That sounds bitter, but let us be honest: Not only do I doubt that I would be able to deal with another cleaning up like that in the next few years without leaving the game for some time to cool down, but the Mursaat were at least out of the picture for a long time and only GW1 players really cared about them – Sylvari are still a playable race and part of the plot. The potential emotional damage the player base would have to suffer through if the writers messed them up as bad as other former lose ends would be immense. We can only hope that they have learned their lesson from the players reactions regarding certain episodes if they ever get back to things like Malyck.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Its Nerfing Time.1495 said:And yet one dragon can't corrupt another's minions?

@Its Nerfing Time.1495 said:In terms of Mordremoth not corrupting them, if he brainwashed them and/or they answered his call - how is it not corruption?

@Its Nerfing Time.1495 said:

@"Tyson.5160" said:I believe it’s because they are already dragon minions. They can be brainwashed, but they can’t be corrupted in a traditional sense because technically there isn’t anything to corrupt. Much like if Zhaitan were to call out to the unchained, they wouldn’t be corrupted.

only a combination of immense willpower and the protection of the Pale Tree can prevent Mordremoth from taking control.

Sylvari receive calls to action in the form of the Wyld Hunt—or the Dark Hunt, for Nightmare Courtiers—and these compulsions act as an access point for Mordremoth’s influence.

Pact Commander: Then we destroy the root: Mordremoth's mind. Its strongest attacks come from its mind,

from the Dream

. That's our target.Canach: Sound strategy, Commander. Turn the tables and

attack the dragon the same way it's been attacking us

? Brilliant.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hearts_and_Minds#Entering_the_lair

The 3 examples you have, are where the Asura are involved and could be due to their meddling. Name one example, where one dragon minion was naturally taken over by another dragon itself.