Sylvari & The Dragons Predicament — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Sylvari & The Dragons Predicament

So... A few thoughts ran through my mind with the developments in the story and the revelations that occurred.

It's a well known fact that Sylvari are dragon minions of Mordremoth, ever since HOT's release.
Fair enough.
Prior to such upon Zhaitan's death, his minions grew stronger; not weaker.
Following upon that, Zhaitan's death also made Mordemoth and his minions stronger as well.

Fast forward to the end of HOT, the Sylvari are 'freed' essentially and Mordy is killed. Thus empowering the other dragons and their minions as well.
The dragon's and their minions grow more powerful with the death of another dragon or ley line energy. Except one case.

The Sylvari.
Why are Sylvari excluded from this effect and why?
They would have absorbed some of said magicks much like Aurene and other minions, would they not? (although to a lesser scale.)
It doesn't make sense a dragon would exclude a minion of theirs biologically from retaining this effect and make them stronger.
Everything else about them shows they ARE like other minions, including their immunity of corruption.
AND if we include Balthazar, even his magic spread to the others and he didn't even possess dragon magic.

Is this simply something that was an oversight that they failed to think of, or do you feel this was intentional for some reason?

Comments

  • perilisk.1874perilisk.1874 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Did all minions grow stronger, or just the champions?

  • @perilisk.1874 said:
    Did all minions grow stronger, or just the champions?

    Most of the lesser minions also inherited the fallen dragon archetypes. I think Ember Bay showed the fusion the most prominently.
    But the champions were typically shown to be even more so. However, in regards to prior minions of dead dragons; it was more so implied I think.

  • Maybe because the Sylvari are not really created by Mordremoth? (Yes I know what a Dev has said about them) Maybe he only claimed them to be his since they are plants and he claims ownership over all plant live. For all we really know the Sylvari could of been creations of Melandru since they do share quite a similar appearance to the Avatars of Melandru. The inquest are pretty much the closest thing we have in game to dragon minion experts and they are shown in LS2 experimenting on Sylvari. Since the inquest know so much about the energies, if the Sylvari where really dragon minions. Why would the Inquest stay quiet about it and not use the info as a way to take full control of Rata Sum and get the other three races to follow the Inquest ? (Just a theory )

  • Blocki.4931Blocki.4931 Member ✭✭✭✭

    They don't have any dragon champions or other way to consume magic like the minions do. Don't champions cause the minions to become stronger? Or "motivate" them? Sylvari lack that. Only way they get enhanced is if they turn into full-on Mordrem, who I'd just call corrupted Sylvari. They are the true dragon minions.

    Smugly chuckling forever.
    My sentence doesn't make sense? Well, I probably forgot to write half of it before posting.

  • I thought that minions didn't grow stronger, until they were taken over by the replacement dragon; that's what granted extra powers. Some minions in Orr (Siren's Landing) became "unchained," free of zhaitan, but not claimed by any other dragon.

    "Face the facts. Then act on them. It's ...the only doctrine I have to offer you, & it's harder than you'd think, because I swear humans seem hardwired to do anything but. Face the facts. Don't pray, don't wish, ...FACE THE FACTS. THEN act." — Quellcrist Falconer

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 23, 2018

    The minions don't absorb the magic (although there will be a couple of exceptions - eg Tequatl). In general they are given extra powers/domains via the Dragon controlling them who actually is the one absorbing the magic in its majority. It wouldn't make any sense for the Sylvari to increase in power or gain new abilities since there is nothing to directly feed them such magic.

    You can (potentially) see this in effect with Primordus as normal destroyers appear in PoF post his being put back to pre-awakened state, so there seems to be a correlation between Elder Dragon activity/magic levels and the strength of minions.

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • @starhunter.6015 said:
    Maybe because the Sylvari are not really created by Mordremoth? (Yes I know what a Dev has said about them)

    May I get the source? I'm actually quite curious since such information was quite unknown to me.

    Why would the Inquest stay quiet about it and not use the info as a way to take full control of Rata Sum and get the other three races to follow the Inquest ? (Just a theory )

    Well, they've been studying such for a long while. I assume the setbacks (caithe and co murdering them, thrumanova exploding) and such prevented them from forming a complete hypothesis. Plus, the Inquest were never one to share info. Taking control would have been an option had they not been stopped and crippled.

    On the other hand, whilst I agree with many of the points; what about the Mother Tree? Whilst she was blessed by the centaurs, the seed itself? Wouldn't that make her more like Glint? (Assuming of course we're basing this on them being dragon minions now.) She's also a direct connection to the Sylvari.

  • perilisk.1874perilisk.1874 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Talonblaze.3175 said:

    @perilisk.1874 said:
    Did all minions grow stronger, or just the champions?

    Most of the lesser minions also inherited the fallen dragon archetypes. I think Ember Bay showed the fusion the most prominently.
    But the champions were typically shown to be even more so. However, in regards to prior minions of dead dragons; it was more so implied I think.

    Right -- it was outright stated for Tequatl, but he was a champion. We don't have any other concrete data on minions of dead dragons. Minions of living dragons, is a different matter, but the implication has been that their Dragon changed them, rather than that they changed themselves.

    It's questionable if Sylvari even count as true dragon minions. If we assume that the Pale Tree was somehow purified, then one could argue that the Sylvari, especially the Firstborn, are analogous to Glint's scions, and yet Vlast and Aurene aren't Kraalkatorik's minions.

    In practice, rituals that purify dragon corruption seem to result in the subject (and any descendants) developing an individual living soul, such that Glint and Sylvari can pass on to the Mists. It's unclear whether that would be true of dragon minions, though they do see to have some individuality.

    It seems like Mordremoth didn't physically corrupt Sylvari so much as he used his unique abilities to mentally dominate them through the Dream that they were both connected to -- the resulting physical changes were something Sylvari were naturally capable of (per Canach's shifting appearance over time, for example).

  • Maybe they did actually get affected by the magic becoming unbound. Individual Sylvari are small though so they wouldn't be soaking up the magic like Tequatl could and the magic that had been digested by an elder dragon may not be compatible with Sylvari. They're not like chak with a magic digesting organ of their own. Isn't there also a side story after going to Bloodstone Fen where the pc is suffering from a magic overload, causing visions of ley line anomalies to appear?

  • @starhunter.6015 said:
    Maybe because the Sylvari are not really created by Mordremoth? (Yes I know what a Dev has said about them) Maybe he only claimed them to be his since they are plants and he claims ownership over all plant live. For all we really know the Sylvari could of been creations of Melandru since they do share quite a similar appearance to the Avatars of Melandru. The inquest are pretty much the closest thing we have in game to dragon minion experts and they are shown in LS2 experimenting on Sylvari. Since the inquest know so much about the energies, if the Sylvari where really dragon minions. Why would the Inquest stay quiet about it and not use the info as a way to take full control of Rata Sum and get the other three races to follow the Inquest ? (Just a theory )

    eh, we know for sure that the Pale Tree is a cleansed Blighting Tree. And as such, the sylvari indeed are dragon minions and the Pale Tree a dragon champion.

    But the Pale Tree might also be the answer to the question. She was almost dead after the attack on her. But after Modremoth's death she recupperated a lot. Maybe she did absorb a lot of the power, healing her up by some degree? The sylvari are far removed from Mordremoth by indirection to not receive any - and all the other minions... do they grow stronger , when a dragon dies, or do only the champions and newly created minions get stronger?

  • @perilisk.1874 said:

    @Talonblaze.3175 said:

    @perilisk.1874 said:
    Did all minions grow stronger, or just the champions?

    Most of the lesser minions also inherited the fallen dragon archetypes. I think Ember Bay showed the fusion the most prominently.
    But the champions were typically shown to be even more so. However, in regards to prior minions of dead dragons; it was more so implied I think.

    Right -- it was outright stated for Tequatl, but he was a champion. We don't have any other concrete data on minions of dead dragons. Minions of living dragons, is a different matter, but the implication has been that their Dragon changed them, rather than that they changed themselves.

    It's questionable if Sylvari even count as true dragon minions. If we assume that the Pale Tree was somehow purified, then one could argue that the Sylvari, especially the Firstborn, are analogous to Glint's scions, and yet Vlast and Aurene aren't Kraalkatorik's minions.

    In practice, rituals that purify dragon corruption seem to result in the subject (and any descendants) developing an individual living soul, such that Glint and Sylvari can pass on to the Mists. It's unclear whether that would be true of dragon minions, though they do see to have some individuality.

    It seems like Mordremoth didn't physically corrupt Sylvari so much as he used his unique abilities to mentally dominate them through the Dream that they were both connected to -- the resulting physical changes were something Sylvari were naturally capable of (per Canach's shifting appearance over time, for example).

    or the former mordrem-guard-turned-back-to-normal-sylvari during the festival of the four winds.

    Sylvari are able to change their appearance. And we know for sure that after mordremoth's death at least some reverted to their former self.

  • @Talonblaze.3175 said:

    @starhunter.6015 said:
    Maybe because the Sylvari are not really created by Mordremoth? (Yes I know what a Dev has said about them)

    May I get the source? I'm actually quite curious since such information was quite unknown to me.

    Why would the Inquest stay quiet about it and not use the info as a way to take full control of Rata Sum and get the other three races to follow the Inquest ? (Just a theory )

    Well, they've been studying such for a long while. I assume the setbacks (caithe and co murdering them, thrumanova exploding) and such prevented them from forming a complete hypothesis. Plus, the Inquest were never one to share info. Taking control would have been an option had they not been stopped and crippled.

    On the other hand, whilst I agree with many of the points; what about the Mother Tree? Whilst she was blessed by the centaurs, the seed itself? Wouldn't that make her more like Glint? (Assuming of course we're basing this on them being dragon minions now.) She's also a direct connection to the Sylvari.

    Ignore Starhunters post, Devs have stated they're dragon minions (also explains why Zhaitan could not corrupt the Sylvari) ergo they're Dragon Minions. The Sylvari around now are those who rejected the call of Mordremoth, so they didn't get any "power ups" from him. Only those under his thrall could have had those had he been left alive and Kralk dead instead, received a bigger boon in power.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 24, 2018

    @Talonblaze.3175 said:
    Fast forward to the end of HOT, the Sylvari are 'freed' essentially and Mordy is killed. Thus empowering the other dragons and their minions as well.
    The dragon's and their minions grow more powerful with the death of another dragon or ley line energy. Except one case.

    The Sylvari.
    Why are Sylvari excluded from this effect and why?

    Not all dragon minions were empowered. Take Primordus, who got the most empowerment from Zhaitan and Mordremoth. In Season 3 we deal almost exclusively with the empowered destroyers, however, in Path of Fire's Desert Highlands we see non-empowered destroyers. We see more non-empowered destroyers in Sandswept Isle (Inquest experiments) and in Mythwright Gambit (Qadim's menagerie).

    Turn to the branded - very few of them are Death-Branded even in Episode 4, despite them being full of brand-new branded. So while it's unclear whether or not old minions can be empowered, we know for certain that the Elder Dragon must choose to make their minions empowered by the dead Elder Dragons' domains.

    Naturally, Mordremoth would not empower the sylvari who have not fallen to him with death magic. And without an Elder Dragon, they have only the Pale Tree to possibly empower the sylvari with death magic after HoT, though with the hints that plant and death magic are opposites, it's probably not a good idea to do such anyways.

    @Talonblaze.3175 said:
    1. They would have absorbed some of said magicks much like Aurene and other minions, would they not? (although to a lesser scale.)
    2. It doesn't make sense a dragon would exclude a minion of theirs biologically from retaining this effect and make them stronger.
    3. Everything else about them shows they ARE like other minions, including their immunity of corruption.
    4. AND if we include Balthazar, even his magic spread to the others and he didn't even possess dragon magic.

    1. No. There is zero evidence anywhere that the sylvari absorb magic like dragon minions do. Whether this is because they don't know how to or the Pale Tree made them incapable is unclear. This is actually one of the massive contradictions that makes the reveal make no sense - there's a number of other factors that differentiate sylvari from even mordrem let alone other dragon minions.
    2. Given that we see Primordus, Jormag, and Kralkatorrik not making all of their minions death / plant infused, there's obviously reason for them to exclude such. And the sylvari have no Elder Dragon anymore, nor would Mordremoth empower his enemies even if they were potential slaves.
    3. Dragon minions are not immune to corruption of other Elder Dragons. See: Subject Alpha, Kudu's Monster, Kudu, and Subject Beta. The sylvari's immunity comes from the Dream, which no other dragon minions (and indeed not even all sylvari) show a connection to.
    4. Technically he did, he took in the Maguuma Bloodstone's magic, which was empowered by Zhaitan's and especially Mordremoth's deaths and magic. He also absorbed magic from Primordus and Jormag. He had little to no magic of his own. But even then, almost all of his magic he released was absorbed by Aurene and Kralkatorrik. Given the lore on Jormag getting a lot less Zhaitan and Mordremoth magic due to distance, the Pale Tree would get practically no Balthazar magic, let alone Jormag.
  • @starhunter.6015 said:
    Maybe because the Sylvari are not really created by Mordremoth? (Yes I know what a Dev has said about them) Maybe he only claimed them to be his since they are plants and he claims ownership over all plant live. For all we really know the Sylvari could of been creations of Melandru since they do share quite a similar appearance to the Avatars of Melandru.

    They were created by a cleansed dragon champion of his (the Pale Tree). They are as much created by Mordremoth as your typical Risen Thrall is by Zhaitan even if they were raised by a local dragon champion.

    The whole "Mordremoth could influence sylvari because they're plants" was the red herring presented during Season 2 (which, tbh, would have made much, much more sense than them being dragon minions given the numerous contradictions between sylvari and dragon minions such as the whole "sylvari don't absorb magic" or "sylvari don't have a hive mind", etc. things).

    Also, while they may not be original creations of Mordremoth, but the Pale Tree('s seeds) being corrupted from pre-existing plant monsters, there's no evidence to suggest they were made by Melandru, especially given that most divine magic seems incorruptable/nonconsumable by the Elder Dragons and their minions. If they were originally made by Melandru, then by all lore, Mordremoth should not have been capable of corrupting them for them to be purified at some unknown point by some unknown force. If Melandru is at all related, I'd suspect that she's the origin of the Dream (we still don't know the Dream's origin...).

    @starhunter.6015 said:
    The inquest are pretty much the closest thing we have in game to dragon minion experts and they are shown in LS2 experimenting on Sylvari. Since the inquest know so much about the energies, if the Sylvari where really dragon minions. Why would the Inquest stay quiet about it and not use the info as a way to take full control of Rata Sum and get the other three races to follow the Inquest ? (Just a theory )

    You're mistaking the Statics of 1304/1305 AE for the Inquest, where asura first studied sylvari. Furthermore, Inquest aren't really fond of sharing their knowledge, and if you go to Crucible of Eternity, Zone Green is full of sylvari creations (summoned husks and nightmare hounds). Even if they did spread such a theoretical relation, that wouldn't be sufficient to get full control of Rata Sum anyways, let alone getting the other inferior races (from their viewpoint) to follow them.

    @Randulf.7614 said:
    The minions don't absorb the magic (although there will be a couple of exceptions - eg Tequatl).

    @perilisk.1874 said:
    Right -- it was outright stated for Tequatl, but he was a champion. We don't have any other concrete data on minions of dead dragons. Minions of living dragons, is a different matter, but the implication has been that their Dragon changed them, rather than that they changed themselves.

    Erm...

    All cases of dragon minions absorbing magic directly, and five of them are also cases of the minions increasing in power...

    @perilisk.1874 said:
    It's questionable if Sylvari even count as true dragon minions. If we assume that the Pale Tree was somehow purified, then one could argue that the Sylvari, especially the Firstborn, are analogous to Glint's scions, and yet Vlast and Aurene aren't Kraalkatorik's minions.

    Technically, Aurene and Vlast are. After all, Kralkatorrik's unique weakness is branded crystals, and Vlast/Aurene still count to that weakness. Sylvari and Glint and co. are kind of akin to the Unchained at the moment - dragon minions without their will enslaved to their respective Elder Dragon.

    @Its Nerfing Time.1495 said:
    Ignore Starhunters post, Devs have stated they're dragon minions (also explains why Zhaitan could not corrupt the Sylvari) ergo they're Dragon Minions. The Sylvari around now are those who rejected the call of Mordremoth, so they didn't get any "power ups" from him. Only those under his thrall could have had those had he been left alive and Kralk dead instead, received a bigger boon in power.

    Sylvari who fell to Mordremoth's brainwashing have (somewhat) returned back to normal as we saw during Festival of the Four Winds. Also, as mentioned above, sylvari immunity was stated to be due to the Dream and, more directly, "the Pale Tree's protection". But due to also being connected to the Dream, Mordremoth was able to bypass that protection and do some more traditional brainwashing rather than corruption.

    By all technicality, as perlisk said, Mordremoth didn't corrupt sylvari.

  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @starhunter.6015 said:
    For all we really know the Sylvari could of been creations of Melandru since they do share quite a similar appearance to the Avatars of Melandru.

    If Melandru is at all related, I'd suspect that she's the origin of the Dream (we still don't know the Dream's origin...).

    That's always been interesting to me. IIRC during an AMA a former GW writer said there were lots of ideas for expanding the story and culture of Sylvari and Norn. The ideas regarding Sylvari in particular were related to Malyck, Druids and the Dream. The Druids and the Sylvari were initially supposed to have a connection (some of it remains, such as the Summon Druid Spirit racial skill and the Brisban Wildlands loading screen art). I don't know if Melandru created the Druids or she simply looked after them, as they cared for the land as much as she did, but if the Sylvari were to have a connection to one it'd make sense for them to also be connected to the other. Who knows, Balthazar had the Fissure of Woe, Grenth the Underworld, perhaps the Dream is Melandru's.

    Anyway, I hope we get to know it someday. The origins of the Dream, what's the Nightmare, who or what cleansed the Pale Tree's seed, the deal with Malyck and why's he an Omen...

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 24, 2018

    @Dall.9752 said:
    The Druids and the Sylvari were initially supposed to have a connection (some of it remains, such as the Summon Druid Spirit racial skill and the Brisban Wildlands loading screen art). I don't know if Melandru created the Druids or she simply looked after them, as they cared for the land as much as she did, but if the Sylvari were to have a connection to one it'd make sense for them to also be connected to the other. Who knows, Balthazar had the Fissure of Woe, Grenth the Underworld, perhaps the Dream is Melandru's.

    The druids were humans (and other races, though less so) that had undergone a ritual to lose their original body to become like treants and then to lose those and become spiritual.

    Given that sylvari were, supposedly, always to be dragon minions from the get go (and that such wasn't derived from the bandwagoning despite the numerous contradictions), any connection between sylvari and druid would likely be tied to the Pale Tree's seed (and likely the whole cave given Malyck) being purified. It'd make sense, given that the druids are apparently able to counteract Mordremoth's influence in the jungle per this event's completion scene.

    I wouldn't really expect to learn anything more about the sylvari except small tidbits, tbh. Anet has a habit of completely dropping plot threads once their chance comes (let alone when it's long gone like sylvari stuff). You'd need about a dozen hands to count the plot hooks surrounding Krytan politics and the mursaat that were never touched upon or at least never concluded when Anet got to the plot in S3.

  • @Its Nerfing Time.1495 said:
    Ignore Starhunters post, Devs have stated they're dragon minions (also explains why Zhaitan could not corrupt the Sylvari) ergo they're Dragon Minions. The Sylvari around now are those who rejected the call of Mordremoth, so they didn't get any "power ups" from him. Only those under his thrall could have had those had he been left alive and Kralk dead instead, received a bigger boon in power.

    Sylvari who fell to Mordremoth's brainwashing have (somewhat) returned back to normal as we saw during Festival of the Four Winds. Also, as mentioned above, sylvari immunity was stated to be due to the Dream and, more directly, "the Pale Tree's protection". But due to also being connected to the Dream, Mordremoth was able to bypass that protection and do some more traditional brainwashing rather than corruption.

    By all technicality, as perlisk said, Mordremoth didn't corrupt sylvari.

    And yet one dragon can't corrupt another's minions?

    In terms of Mordremoth not corrupting them, if he brainwashed them and/or they answered his call - how is it not corruption?

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Its Nerfing Time.1495 said:

    @Its Nerfing Time.1495 said:
    Ignore Starhunters post, Devs have stated they're dragon minions (also explains why Zhaitan could not corrupt the Sylvari) ergo they're Dragon Minions. The Sylvari around now are those who rejected the call of Mordremoth, so they didn't get any "power ups" from him. Only those under his thrall could have had those had he been left alive and Kralk dead instead, received a bigger boon in power.

    Sylvari who fell to Mordremoth's brainwashing have (somewhat) returned back to normal as we saw during Festival of the Four Winds. Also, as mentioned above, sylvari immunity was stated to be due to the Dream and, more directly, "the Pale Tree's protection". But due to also being connected to the Dream, Mordremoth was able to bypass that protection and do some more traditional brainwashing rather than corruption.

    By all technicality, as perlisk said, Mordremoth didn't corrupt sylvari.

    And yet one dragon can't corrupt another's minions?

    In terms of Mordremoth not corrupting them, if he brainwashed them and/or they answered his call - how is it not corruption?

    I believe it’s because they are already dragon minions. They can be brainwashed, but they can’t be corrupted in a traditional sense because technically there isn’t anything to corrupt. Much like if Zhaitan were to call out to the unchained, they wouldn’t be corrupted.

  • @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Its Nerfing Time.1495 said:

    @Its Nerfing Time.1495 said:
    Ignore Starhunters post, Devs have stated they're dragon minions (also explains why Zhaitan could not corrupt the Sylvari) ergo they're Dragon Minions. The Sylvari around now are those who rejected the call of Mordremoth, so they didn't get any "power ups" from him. Only those under his thrall could have had those had he been left alive and Kralk dead instead, received a bigger boon in power.

    Sylvari who fell to Mordremoth's brainwashing have (somewhat) returned back to normal as we saw during Festival of the Four Winds. Also, as mentioned above, sylvari immunity was stated to be due to the Dream and, more directly, "the Pale Tree's protection". But due to also being connected to the Dream, Mordremoth was able to bypass that protection and do some more traditional brainwashing rather than corruption.

    By all technicality, as perlisk said, Mordremoth didn't corrupt sylvari.

    And yet one dragon can't corrupt another's minions?

    In terms of Mordremoth not corrupting them, if he brainwashed them and/or they answered his call - how is it not corruption?

    I believe it’s because they are already dragon minions. They can be brainwashed, but they can’t be corrupted in a traditional sense because technically there isn’t anything to corrupt. Much like if Zhaitan were to call out to the unchained, they wouldn’t be corrupted.

    Yes, but they're Mordremoths minions, so in a way I suppose it makes sense if they're already corrupted and he just calls out to them.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 24, 2018

    @Its Nerfing Time.1495 said:
    And yet one dragon can't corrupt another's minions?

    Nowhere is this ever stated, anywhere, in the game. It is pure player speculation and nothing more. In fact, we have three prime examples of cases where an individual is influenced by multiple Elder Dragons' corruptive energies - Subject Alpha, Kudu's Monster, and Subject Beta.

    @Its Nerfing Time.1495 said:
    In terms of Mordremoth not corrupting them, if he brainwashed them and/or they answered his call - how is it not corruption?

    Dragon corruption is a magical effect that permanently transforms an individual physically as well as enslaves their will. What Mordremoth did was bombard sylvari with thoughts designed to be interpreted as their own so that they would willingly turn to serve Mordremoth.

    The primary difference is the existence of free will - sylvari, and Mordrem Guard, have free will. Mordrem do not.

    @Its Nerfing Time.1495 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    I believe it’s because they are already dragon minions. They can be brainwashed, but they can’t be corrupted in a traditional sense because technically there isn’t anything to corrupt. Much like if Zhaitan were to call out to the unchained, they wouldn’t be corrupted.

    Yes, but they're Mordremoths minions, so in a way I suppose it makes sense if they're already corrupted and he just calls out to them.

    Elder Dragons can corrupt their own purified minions.

    The facets were creations of Glint - effectively purified branded made from the environment, like Crystal Guardians and Crystal Spiders - and this one was corrupted by the Brand, even drops branded champion loot bags, just like Glint's lair is being slowly branded.

    They seem more resilient to corruption, but not immune.

    In theory, Malyck and his tree would be fully succceptable to being corrupted by Mordremoth. It's stated several times that what protects sylvari from Elder Dragon corruption is the Dream - or more specifically "the Pale Tree's protection" - even after the reveal of their origin:

    only a combination of immense willpower and the protection of the Pale Tree can prevent Mordremoth from taking control.

    The method Mordremoth uses, ironically, is the very same protection against corruption:

    Sylvari receive calls to action in the form of the Wyld Hunt—or the Dark Hunt, for Nightmare Courtiers—and these compulsions act as an access point for Mordremoth’s influence.

    and

    Pact Commander: Then we destroy the root: Mordremoth's mind. Its strongest attacks come from its mind, from the Dream. That's our target.
    Canach: Sound strategy, Commander. Turn the tables and attack the dragon the same way it's been attacking us? Brilliant.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hearts_and_Minds#Entering_the_lair

    The Dream is what prevents corruption, not their existence as dragon minions.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Its Nerfing Time.1495 said:
    And yet one dragon can't corrupt another's minions?

    Nowhere is this ever stated, anywhere, in the game. It is pure player speculation and nothing more. In fact, we have three prime examples of cases where an individual is influenced by multiple Elder Dragons' corruptive energies - Subject Alpha, Kudu's Monster, and Subject Beta.

    @Its Nerfing Time.1495 said:
    In terms of Mordremoth not corrupting them, if he brainwashed them and/or they answered his call - how is it not corruption?

    Dragon corruption is a magical effect that permanently transforms an individual physically as well as enslaves their will. What Mordremoth did was bombard sylvari with thoughts designed to be interpreted as their own so that they would willingly turn to serve Mordremoth.

    The primary difference is the existence of free will - sylvari, and Mordrem Guard, have free will. Mordrem do not.

    @Its Nerfing Time.1495 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    I believe it’s because they are already dragon minions. They can be brainwashed, but they can’t be corrupted in a traditional sense because technically there isn’t anything to corrupt. Much like if Zhaitan were to call out to the unchained, they wouldn’t be corrupted.

    Yes, but they're Mordremoths minions, so in a way I suppose it makes sense if they're already corrupted and he just calls out to them.

    Elder Dragons can corrupt their own purified minions.

    The facets were creations of Glint - effectively purified branded made from the environment, like Crystal Guardians and Crystal Spiders - and this one was corrupted by the Brand, even drops branded champion loot bags, just like Glint's lair is being slowly branded.

    They seem more resilient to corruption, but not immune.

    In theory, Malyck and his tree would be fully succceptable to being corrupted by Mordremoth. It's stated several times that what protects sylvari from Elder Dragon corruption is the Dream - or more specifically "the Pale Tree's protection" - even after the reveal of their origin:

    only a combination of immense willpower and the protection of the Pale Tree can prevent Mordremoth from taking control.

    The method Mordremoth uses, ironically, is the very same protection against corruption:

    Sylvari receive calls to action in the form of the Wyld Hunt—or the Dark Hunt, for Nightmare Courtiers—and these compulsions act as an access point for Mordremoth’s influence.

    and

    Pact Commander: Then we destroy the root: Mordremoth's mind. Its strongest attacks come from its mind, from the Dream. That's our target.
    Canach: Sound strategy, Commander. Turn the tables and attack the dragon the same way it's been attacking us? Brilliant.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hearts_and_Minds#Entering_the_lair

    The Dream is what prevents corruption, not their existence as dragon minions.

    I guess Diarmid is a bit of different situation too as she was killed during the Pact assault, placed into a Blighting Pod and recreated as a Mordremoth Commander. With Mordremoth using death magic, this probably is one of those incidents that free will doesn’t apply.

  • The three Mordrem Guard Commanders are a bit weird due to them being reborn constantly. I believe it was said that their mind was placed into a new body by Mordremoth using his mind domain and their connection to the Dream, but there's no real saying on whether their free will was affected by this or not. Same goes for Faolain, who's body was grotesquely altered.

    Of course, since all four were killed shortly before Mordremoth was, they are all dead now so we won't really ever know.

  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    I wouldn't really expect to learn anything more about the sylvari except small tidbits, tbh. Anet has a habit of completely dropping plot threads once their chance comes (let alone when it's long gone like sylvari stuff). You'd need about a dozen hands to count the plot hooks surrounding Krytan politics and the mursaat that were never touched upon or at least never concluded when Anet got to the plot in S3.

    And we all better pray that it stays this way instead of them getting the same level of quality epilogue the Mursaat had to go through. That sounds bitter, but let us be honest: Not only do I doubt that I would be able to deal with another cleaning up like that in the next few years without leaving the game for some time to cool down, but the Mursaat were at least out of the picture for a long time and only GW1 players really cared about them – Sylvari are still a playable race and part of the plot. The potential emotional damage the player base would have to suffer through if the writers messed them up as bad as other former lose ends would be immense. We can only hope that they have learned their lesson from the players reactions regarding certain episodes if they ever get back to things like Malyck.

  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Its Nerfing Time.1495 said:
    And yet one dragon can't corrupt another's minions?

    Nowhere is this ever stated, anywhere, in the game. It is pure player speculation and nothing more. In fact, we have three prime examples of cases where an individual is influenced by multiple Elder Dragons' corruptive energies - Subject Alpha, Kudu's Monster, and Subject Beta.

    @Its Nerfing Time.1495 said:
    In terms of Mordremoth not corrupting them, if he brainwashed them and/or they answered his call - how is it not corruption?

    Dragon corruption is a magical effect that permanently transforms an individual physically as well as enslaves their will. What Mordremoth did was bombard sylvari with thoughts designed to be interpreted as their own so that they would willingly turn to serve Mordremoth.

    The primary difference is the existence of free will - sylvari, and Mordrem Guard, have free will. Mordrem do not.

    @Its Nerfing Time.1495 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    I believe it’s because they are already dragon minions. They can be brainwashed, but they can’t be corrupted in a traditional sense because technically there isn’t anything to corrupt. Much like if Zhaitan were to call out to the unchained, they wouldn’t be corrupted.

    Yes, but they're Mordremoths minions, so in a way I suppose it makes sense if they're already corrupted and he just calls out to them.

    Elder Dragons can corrupt their own purified minions.

    The facets were creations of Glint - effectively purified branded made from the environment, like Crystal Guardians and Crystal Spiders - and this one was corrupted by the Brand, even drops branded champion loot bags, just like Glint's lair is being slowly branded.

    They seem more resilient to corruption, but not immune.

    In theory, Malyck and his tree would be fully succceptable to being corrupted by Mordremoth. It's stated several times that what protects sylvari from Elder Dragon corruption is the Dream - or more specifically "the Pale Tree's protection" - even after the reveal of their origin:

    only a combination of immense willpower and the protection of the Pale Tree can prevent Mordremoth from taking control.

    The method Mordremoth uses, ironically, is the very same protection against corruption:

    Sylvari receive calls to action in the form of the Wyld Hunt—or the Dark Hunt, for Nightmare Courtiers—and these compulsions act as an access point for Mordremoth’s influence.

    and

    Pact Commander: Then we destroy the root: Mordremoth's mind. Its strongest attacks come from its mind, from the Dream. That's our target.
    Canach: Sound strategy, Commander. Turn the tables and attack the dragon the same way it's been attacking us? Brilliant.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hearts_and_Minds#Entering_the_lair

    The Dream is what prevents corruption, not their existence as dragon minions.

    The 3 examples you have, are where the Asura are involved and could be due to their meddling. Name one example, where one dragon minion was naturally taken over by another dragon itself.

  • Aaron Ansari.1604Aaron Ansari.1604 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 25, 2018

    @Its Nerfing Time.1495 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Its Nerfing Time.1495 said:
    And yet one dragon can't corrupt another's minions?

    Nowhere is this ever stated, anywhere, in the game. It is pure player speculation and nothing more. In fact, we have three prime examples of cases where an individual is influenced by multiple Elder Dragons' corruptive energies - Subject Alpha, Kudu's Monster, and Subject Beta.

    @Its Nerfing Time.1495 said:
    In terms of Mordremoth not corrupting them, if he brainwashed them and/or they answered his call - how is it not corruption?

    Dragon corruption is a magical effect that permanently transforms an individual physically as well as enslaves their will. What Mordremoth did was bombard sylvari with thoughts designed to be interpreted as their own so that they would willingly turn to serve Mordremoth.

    The primary difference is the existence of free will - sylvari, and Mordrem Guard, have free will. Mordrem do not.

    @Its Nerfing Time.1495 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    I believe it’s because they are already dragon minions. They can be brainwashed, but they can’t be corrupted in a traditional sense because technically there isn’t anything to corrupt. Much like if Zhaitan were to call out to the unchained, they wouldn’t be corrupted.

    Yes, but they're Mordremoths minions, so in a way I suppose it makes sense if they're already corrupted and he just calls out to them.

    Elder Dragons can corrupt their own purified minions.

    The facets were creations of Glint - effectively purified branded made from the environment, like Crystal Guardians and Crystal Spiders - and this one was corrupted by the Brand, even drops branded champion loot bags, just like Glint's lair is being slowly branded.

    They seem more resilient to corruption, but not immune.

    In theory, Malyck and his tree would be fully succceptable to being corrupted by Mordremoth. It's stated several times that what protects sylvari from Elder Dragon corruption is the Dream - or more specifically "the Pale Tree's protection" - even after the reveal of their origin:

    only a combination of immense willpower and the protection of the Pale Tree can prevent Mordremoth from taking control.

    The method Mordremoth uses, ironically, is the very same protection against corruption:

    Sylvari receive calls to action in the form of the Wyld Hunt—or the Dark Hunt, for Nightmare Courtiers—and these compulsions act as an access point for Mordremoth’s influence.

    and

    Pact Commander: Then we destroy the root: Mordremoth's mind. Its strongest attacks come from its mind, from the Dream. That's our target.
    Canach: Sound strategy, Commander. Turn the tables and attack the dragon the same way it's been attacking us? Brilliant.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hearts_and_Minds#Entering_the_lair

    The Dream is what prevents corruption, not their existence as dragon minions.

    The 3 examples you have, are where the Asura are involved and could be due to their meddling. Name one example, where one dragon minion was naturally taken over by another dragon itself.

    That's the trouble- name one example where minions of two separate dragons have come into contact naturally. The reason we keep going back to the Inquest experiments is that outside of them we have a sample size of zero. (One, if you count a hastily put-together HoT preview event.) Needless to say, that is not conclusive data.

    What the data does show, though, is that there are circumstances where a single entity can hold the energies of multiple dragons- both in the Inquest labs, and more widely once the Elder Dragons themselves started capitalizing on the powers of slain rivals. Whether those circumstances are broad enough that we would normally see it occur with the energies of two active, rival dragons is unclear, whether those circumstances are even possible when both sets of corruption have the will of their dragon behind them is unknown, but what is known is that dragon minions are not immune to other kinds of corruption, through the proof of our own eyes in CoE, and that the sylvari immunity* to corruption stems from the Pale Tree, through Word of Dev.

    *'Immunity' has never truly been the right word anyway, because the sylvari are affected by dragon corruption- it kills them outright. It might not sound as dramatic, but really, they should've been calling it an allergy all this time. : P

    R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

  • @Aaron Ansari.1604 said:

    @Its Nerfing Time.1495 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Its Nerfing Time.1495 said:
    And yet one dragon can't corrupt another's minions?

    Nowhere is this ever stated, anywhere, in the game. It is pure player speculation and nothing more. In fact, we have three prime examples of cases where an individual is influenced by multiple Elder Dragons' corruptive energies - Subject Alpha, Kudu's Monster, and Subject Beta.

    @Its Nerfing Time.1495 said:
    In terms of Mordremoth not corrupting them, if he brainwashed them and/or they answered his call - how is it not corruption?

    Dragon corruption is a magical effect that permanently transforms an individual physically as well as enslaves their will. What Mordremoth did was bombard sylvari with thoughts designed to be interpreted as their own so that they would willingly turn to serve Mordremoth.

    The primary difference is the existence of free will - sylvari, and Mordrem Guard, have free will. Mordrem do not.

    @Its Nerfing Time.1495 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    I believe it’s because they are already dragon minions. They can be brainwashed, but they can’t be corrupted in a traditional sense because technically there isn’t anything to corrupt. Much like if Zhaitan were to call out to the unchained, they wouldn’t be corrupted.

    Yes, but they're Mordremoths minions, so in a way I suppose it makes sense if they're already corrupted and he just calls out to them.

    Elder Dragons can corrupt their own purified minions.

    The facets were creations of Glint - effectively purified branded made from the environment, like Crystal Guardians and Crystal Spiders - and this one was corrupted by the Brand, even drops branded champion loot bags, just like Glint's lair is being slowly branded.

    They seem more resilient to corruption, but not immune.

    In theory, Malyck and his tree would be fully succceptable to being corrupted by Mordremoth. It's stated several times that what protects sylvari from Elder Dragon corruption is the Dream - or more specifically "the Pale Tree's protection" - even after the reveal of their origin:

    only a combination of immense willpower and the protection of the Pale Tree can prevent Mordremoth from taking control.

    The method Mordremoth uses, ironically, is the very same protection against corruption:

    Sylvari receive calls to action in the form of the Wyld Hunt—or the Dark Hunt, for Nightmare Courtiers—and these compulsions act as an access point for Mordremoth’s influence.

    and

    Pact Commander: Then we destroy the root: Mordremoth's mind. Its strongest attacks come from its mind, from the Dream. That's our target.
    Canach: Sound strategy, Commander. Turn the tables and attack the dragon the same way it's been attacking us? Brilliant.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hearts_and_Minds#Entering_the_lair

    The Dream is what prevents corruption, not their existence as dragon minions.

    The 3 examples you have, are where the Asura are involved and could be due to their meddling. Name one example, where one dragon minion was naturally taken over by another dragon itself.

    That's the trouble- name one example where minions of two separate dragons have come into contact naturally. The reason we keep going back to the Inquest experiments is that outside of them we have a sample size of zero. (One, if you count a hastily put-together HoT preview event.) Needless to say, that is not conclusive data.

    What the data does show, though, is that there are circumstances where a single entity can hold the energies of multiple dragons- both in the Inquest labs, and more widely once the Elder Dragons themselves started capitalizing on the powers of slain rivals. Whether those circumstances are broad enough that we would normally see it occur with the energies of two active, rival dragons is unclear, whether those circumstances are even possible when both sets of corruption have the will of their dragon behind them is unknown, but what is known is that dragon minions are not immune to other kinds of corruption, through the proof of our own eyes in CoE, and that the sylvari immunity* to corruption stems from the Pale Tree, through Word of Dev.

    *'Immunity' has never truly been the right word anyway, because the sylvari are affected by dragon corruption- it kills them outright. It might not sound as dramatic, but really, they should've been calling it an allergy all this time. : P

    Uh, nowhere has it been shown they're not immune to other corruption? They cannot be taken over by another dragon if their own dragon exists to empower and control them. Please cite one example where a minion from one dragon has taken over another, with both dragons alive.

    I'll wait

  • Aaron Ansari.1604Aaron Ansari.1604 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Its Nerfing Time.1495 said:

    @Aaron Ansari.1604 said:

    @Its Nerfing Time.1495 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Its Nerfing Time.1495 said:
    And yet one dragon can't corrupt another's minions?

    Nowhere is this ever stated, anywhere, in the game. It is pure player speculation and nothing more. In fact, we have three prime examples of cases where an individual is influenced by multiple Elder Dragons' corruptive energies - Subject Alpha, Kudu's Monster, and Subject Beta.

    @Its Nerfing Time.1495 said:
    In terms of Mordremoth not corrupting them, if he brainwashed them and/or they answered his call - how is it not corruption?

    Dragon corruption is a magical effect that permanently transforms an individual physically as well as enslaves their will. What Mordremoth did was bombard sylvari with thoughts designed to be interpreted as their own so that they would willingly turn to serve Mordremoth.

    The primary difference is the existence of free will - sylvari, and Mordrem Guard, have free will. Mordrem do not.

    @Its Nerfing Time.1495 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    I believe it’s because they are already dragon minions. They can be brainwashed, but they can’t be corrupted in a traditional sense because technically there isn’t anything to corrupt. Much like if Zhaitan were to call out to the unchained, they wouldn’t be corrupted.

    Yes, but they're Mordremoths minions, so in a way I suppose it makes sense if they're already corrupted and he just calls out to them.

    Elder Dragons can corrupt their own purified minions.

    The facets were creations of Glint - effectively purified branded made from the environment, like Crystal Guardians and Crystal Spiders - and this one was corrupted by the Brand, even drops branded champion loot bags, just like Glint's lair is being slowly branded.

    They seem more resilient to corruption, but not immune.

    In theory, Malyck and his tree would be fully succceptable to being corrupted by Mordremoth. It's stated several times that what protects sylvari from Elder Dragon corruption is the Dream - or more specifically "the Pale Tree's protection" - even after the reveal of their origin:

    only a combination of immense willpower and the protection of the Pale Tree can prevent Mordremoth from taking control.

    The method Mordremoth uses, ironically, is the very same protection against corruption:

    Sylvari receive calls to action in the form of the Wyld Hunt—or the Dark Hunt, for Nightmare Courtiers—and these compulsions act as an access point for Mordremoth’s influence.

    and

    Pact Commander: Then we destroy the root: Mordremoth's mind. Its strongest attacks come from its mind, from the Dream. That's our target.
    Canach: Sound strategy, Commander. Turn the tables and attack the dragon the same way it's been attacking us? Brilliant.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hearts_and_Minds#Entering_the_lair

    The Dream is what prevents corruption, not their existence as dragon minions.

    The 3 examples you have, are where the Asura are involved and could be due to their meddling. Name one example, where one dragon minion was naturally taken over by another dragon itself.

    That's the trouble- name one example where minions of two separate dragons have come into contact naturally. The reason we keep going back to the Inquest experiments is that outside of them we have a sample size of zero. (One, if you count a hastily put-together HoT preview event.) Needless to say, that is not conclusive data.

    What the data does show, though, is that there are circumstances where a single entity can hold the energies of multiple dragons- both in the Inquest labs, and more widely once the Elder Dragons themselves started capitalizing on the powers of slain rivals. Whether those circumstances are broad enough that we would normally see it occur with the energies of two active, rival dragons is unclear, whether those circumstances are even possible when both sets of corruption have the will of their dragon behind them is unknown, but what is known is that dragon minions are not immune to other kinds of corruption, through the proof of our own eyes in CoE, and that the sylvari immunity* to corruption stems from the Pale Tree, through Word of Dev.

    *'Immunity' has never truly been the right word anyway, because the sylvari are affected by dragon corruption- it kills them outright. It might not sound as dramatic, but really, they should've been calling it an allergy all this time. : P

    Uh, nowhere has it been shown they're not immune to other corruption? They cannot be taken over by another dragon if their own dragon exists to empower and control them. Please cite one example where a minion from one dragon has taken over another, with both dragons alive.

    I'll wait

    Let me focus on that one bit then- where has a minion of one living dragon come into contact with a minion of a different living dragon? Or are you suggesting that we ought to have seen cross-corruption without any contact between minions?

    R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

  • @Its Nerfing Time.1495 said:
    The 3 examples you have, are where the Asura are involved and could be due to their meddling. Name one example, where one dragon minion was naturally taken over by another dragon itself.

    This argument fundamentally requires the Inquest, who are akin to infants handling a gun, to be capable of doing more than the Elder Dragons, who are masters of their domain. Does that make any sense?

    Besides which, we see in CoE story the extent of how the Inquest create their dragon minions - it's literally nothing more than exposing individuals to the corruptive dragon energies that makes minions.

    In other words, what the Inquest do is purely replicating what the Elder Dragons do, and literally nothing more.

  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Its Nerfing Time.1495 said:
    The 3 examples you have, are where the Asura are involved and could be due to their meddling. Name one example, where one dragon minion was naturally taken over by another dragon itself.

    This argument fundamentally requires the Inquest, who are akin to infants handling a gun, to be capable of doing more than the Elder Dragons, who are masters of their domain. Does that make any sense?

    Besides which, we see in CoE story the extent of how the Inquest create their dragon minions - it's literally nothing more than exposing individuals to the corruptive dragon energies that makes minions.

    In other words, what the Inquest do is purely replicating what the Elder Dragons do, and literally nothing more.

    And yet they've managed to do it? They've managed to combine the energies into one being with all 5?> @Aaron Ansari.1604 said:

    @Its Nerfing Time.1495 said:

    @Aaron Ansari.1604 said:

    @Its Nerfing Time.1495 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Its Nerfing Time.1495 said:
    And yet one dragon can't corrupt another's minions?

    Nowhere is this ever stated, anywhere, in the game. It is pure player speculation and nothing more. In fact, we have three prime examples of cases where an individual is influenced by multiple Elder Dragons' corruptive energies - Subject Alpha, Kudu's Monster, and Subject Beta.

    @Its Nerfing Time.1495 said:
    In terms of Mordremoth not corrupting them, if he brainwashed them and/or they answered his call - how is it not corruption?

    Dragon corruption is a magical effect that permanently transforms an individual physically as well as enslaves their will. What Mordremoth did was bombard sylvari with thoughts designed to be interpreted as their own so that they would willingly turn to serve Mordremoth.

    The primary difference is the existence of free will - sylvari, and Mordrem Guard, have free will. Mordrem do not.

    @Its Nerfing Time.1495 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    I believe it’s because they are already dragon minions. They can be brainwashed, but they can’t be corrupted in a traditional sense because technically there isn’t anything to corrupt. Much like if Zhaitan were to call out to the unchained, they wouldn’t be corrupted.

    Yes, but they're Mordremoths minions, so in a way I suppose it makes sense if they're already corrupted and he just calls out to them.

    Elder Dragons can corrupt their own purified minions.

    The facets were creations of Glint - effectively purified branded made from the environment, like Crystal Guardians and Crystal Spiders - and this one was corrupted by the Brand, even drops branded champion loot bags, just like Glint's lair is being slowly branded.

    They seem more resilient to corruption, but not immune.

    In theory, Malyck and his tree would be fully succceptable to being corrupted by Mordremoth. It's stated several times that what protects sylvari from Elder Dragon corruption is the Dream - or more specifically "the Pale Tree's protection" - even after the reveal of their origin:

    only a combination of immense willpower and the protection of the Pale Tree can prevent Mordremoth from taking control.

    The method Mordremoth uses, ironically, is the very same protection against corruption:

    Sylvari receive calls to action in the form of the Wyld Hunt—or the Dark Hunt, for Nightmare Courtiers—and these compulsions act as an access point for Mordremoth’s influence.

    and

    Pact Commander: Then we destroy the root: Mordremoth's mind. Its strongest attacks come from its mind, from the Dream. That's our target.
    Canach: Sound strategy, Commander. Turn the tables and attack the dragon the same way it's been attacking us? Brilliant.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hearts_and_Minds#Entering_the_lair

    The Dream is what prevents corruption, not their existence as dragon minions.

    The 3 examples you have, are where the Asura are involved and could be due to their meddling. Name one example, where one dragon minion was naturally taken over by another dragon itself.

    That's the trouble- name one example where minions of two separate dragons have come into contact naturally. The reason we keep going back to the Inquest experiments is that outside of them we have a sample size of zero. (One, if you count a hastily put-together HoT preview event.) Needless to say, that is not conclusive data.

    What the data does show, though, is that there are circumstances where a single entity can hold the energies of multiple dragons- both in the Inquest labs, and more widely once the Elder Dragons themselves started capitalizing on the powers of slain rivals. Whether those circumstances are broad enough that we would normally see it occur with the energies of two active, rival dragons is unclear, whether those circumstances are even possible when both sets of corruption have the will of their dragon behind them is unknown, but what is known is that dragon minions are not immune to other kinds of corruption, through the proof of our own eyes in CoE, and that the sylvari immunity* to corruption stems from the Pale Tree, through Word of Dev.

    *'Immunity' has never truly been the right word anyway, because the sylvari are affected by dragon corruption- it kills them outright. It might not sound as dramatic, but really, they should've been calling it an allergy all this time. : P

    Uh, nowhere has it been shown they're not immune to other corruption? They cannot be taken over by another dragon if their own dragon exists to empower and control them. Please cite one example where a minion from one dragon has taken over another, with both dragons alive.

    I'll wait

    Let me focus on that one bit then- where has a minion of one living dragon come into contact with a minion of a different living dragon? Or are you suggesting that we ought to have seen cross-corruption without any contact between minions?

    You ignored my question, which pretty much answers it anyway. You don't have one

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 26, 2018

    @Its Nerfing Time.1495 said:
    And yet they've managed to do it? They've managed to combine the energies into one being with all 5?> @Aaron Ansari.1604 said:

    Yes, they managed to combine the energies of five Elder Dragons into one being, by simply exposing that one being to all four Elder Dragons' energies.

    In other words, the Inquest do nothing special. They in fact do less than what the Elder Dragons do.

    The same thing would happen if a branded wandered up to Primordus and got corrupted, then wandered up to Jormag and got corrupted, then wandered up to Mordremoth and got corrupted.

    @Its Nerfing Time.1495 said:

    @Aaron Ansari.1604 said:

    @Its Nerfing Time.1495 said:
    Uh, nowhere has it been shown they're not immune to other corruption? They cannot be taken over by another dragon if their own dragon exists to empower and control them. Please cite one example where a minion from one dragon has taken over another, with both dragons alive.

    I'll wait

    Let me focus on that one bit then- where has a minion of one living dragon come into contact with a minion of a different living dragon? Or are you suggesting that we ought to have seen cross-corruption without any contact between minions?

    You ignored my question, which pretty much answers it anyway. You don't have one

    He wasn't ignoring your question. He was answering your question with a question.

    His point is that "in the wild" there are zero instances of two different types of dragon minions interacting with each other, thus zero instances were a minion could be corrupted by another, except in the Inquest labs. However, he was also implyi9ng that the lacking of evidence is not evidence of lacking - the lack of such scenarios of minion interaction (which would lead to multi-corrupted minions outside of labs) does not mean that multi-corrupted minions are impossible.

    There is zero reason to believe that Elder Dragons cannot do what the Inquest do by simply exposing people to the Elder Dragons' energies.

    Hell, one can argue that the Elder Dragons already make multi-corrupted minions in the wild as of Season 3. The Death-Touched Destroyers, Vine-Touched Destroyers, and the Death-Branded... branded are all minions that are corrupted utilizing multiple Elder Dragons' corruptive domains. The only difference is that there's only one Elder Dragon to control the minions' will (which is probably why they don't do what the Inquest have done with Subject Alpha, which proved to be uncontrollable and seemingly mentally unstable yet capable of commanding all five types of dragon minions in CoE).

  • perilisk.1874perilisk.1874 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 26, 2018

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @perilisk.1874 said:
    Right -- it was outright stated for Tequatl, but he was a champion. We don't have any other concrete data on minions of dead dragons. Minions of living dragons, is a different matter, but the implication has been that their Dragon changed them, rather than that they changed themselves.

    Erm...

    Right, but those are almost all cases of minions absorbing ambient magic, ley-line magic, etc., and becoming stronger but basically the same. I was talking about the changes that minions started showing with HoT and especially LS3, where icebrood and destroyers began developing death and plant abilities.

    Edit: That said, it is weird that Sylvari can't eat magic.

  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Its Nerfing Time.1495 said:
    And yet they've managed to do it? They've managed to combine the energies into one being with all 5?> @Aaron Ansari.1604 said:

    Yes, they managed to combine the energies of five Elder Dragons into one being, by simply exposing that one being to all four Elder Dragons' energies.

    In other words, the Inquest do nothing special. They in fact do less than what the Elder Dragons do.

    The same thing would happen if a branded wandered up to Primordus and got corrupted, then wandered up to Jormag and got corrupted, then wandered up to Mordremoth and got corrupted.

    @Its Nerfing Time.1495 said:

    @Aaron Ansari.1604 said:

    @Its Nerfing Time.1495 said:
    Uh, nowhere has it been shown they're not immune to other corruption? They cannot be taken over by another dragon if their own dragon exists to empower and control them. Please cite one example where a minion from one dragon has taken over another, with both dragons alive.

    I'll wait

    Let me focus on that one bit then- where has a minion of one living dragon come into contact with a minion of a different living dragon? Or are you suggesting that we ought to have seen cross-corruption without any contact between minions?

    You ignored my question, which pretty much answers it anyway. You don't have one

    He wasn't ignoring your question. He was answering your question with a question.

    His point is that "in the wild" there are zero instances of two different types of dragon minions interacting with each other, thus zero instances were a minion could be corrupted by another, except in the Inquest labs. However, he was also implyi9ng that the lacking of evidence is not evidence of lacking - the lack of such scenarios of minion interaction (which would lead to multi-corrupted minions outside of labs) does not mean that multi-corrupted minions are impossible.

    There is zero reason to believe that Elder Dragons cannot do what the Inquest do by simply exposing people to the Elder Dragons' energies.

    Hell, one can argue that the Elder Dragons already make multi-corrupted minions in the wild as of Season 3. The Death-Touched Destroyers, Vine-Touched Destroyers, and the Death-Branded... branded are all minions that are corrupted utilizing multiple Elder Dragons' corruptive domains. The only difference is that there's only one Elder Dragon to control the minions' will (which is probably why they don't do what the Inquest have done with Subject Alpha, which proved to be uncontrollable and seemingly mentally unstable yet capable of commanding all five types of dragon minions in CoE).

    Multi corrupted controlled by one dragon controlling said energies. It's been shown that dragon energies at opposing ends cancel each other out (primordus/jormag for example), so unless the power was controlled by one, they would end each other yes? And yet the Inquest have managed to contain that. So they have actually done "more" than the Dragons normally could.

    And yes, he was ignoring the point.

  • Aaron Ansari.1604Aaron Ansari.1604 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 26, 2018

    @Its Nerfing Time.1495 said:
    And yes, he was ignoring the point.

    I was? Your point was that we had not seen evidence, and therefore, we must assume it's impossible, was it not? I challenged that point on two grounds- that the only admissible evidence would be minions of one dragon autonomously corrupting minions of another, and that absence of evidence equates to evidence of absence- and I also did not concede that point, but I did not ignore it.

    If my previous reasons haven't been persuasive, though, let us instead expand the line of thinking you've presented (which, I hope you will agree, clearly precludes the possibility of ignoring it). You will find that you're unable to cite any case of a skritt, a grawl, or an ettin being corrupted by an Elder Dragon. Should we then conclude that they're unable to be corrupted? Similarly, you will not find any instances of cows or rabbits being corrupted. Have cows and rabbits miraculously held the secret to immunity all this time?

    R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 26, 2018

    The Sylvari resisted Mordremoth and never succumb to his will thus they were not converted into the more powerful Mordrem forms.
    The term minion doesn't really apply to them, Yes they have a link to the Jungle Dragon but they were born and nurtured by the Pale Tree as individuals with free will.
    The Sylvari are not the same as Mordrem, Risen, Branded or Destroyers.. they are unique and none of them gained any dragon power from Mordremoth until they completely succumbed to his will so it makes sense that resisting the dragon also means they resisted his power as well which would have corrupted them.

    @Talonblaze.3175 said:
    AND if we include Balthazar, even his magic spread to the others and he didn't even possess dragon magic.

    Actually he did, back in Living world 3 Balthazar absorbed a great deal of magic from Primordus and Jormag after we broke the machine he was using to channel their powers against one another.
    This could very well be one of the reasons why his magic was attracted to and absorbed by an unconscious Aurine before Kralkatorrik sucked the rest of it up.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    The Sylvari resisted Mordremoth and never succumb to his will thus they were not converted into the more powerful Mordrem forms.
    The term minion doesn't really apply to them, Yes they have a link to the Jungle Dragon but they were born and nurtured by the Pale Tree as individuals with free will.
    The Sylvari are not the same as Mordrem, Risen, Branded or Destroyers.. they are unique and none of them gained any dragon power from Mordremoth until they completely succumbed to his will so it makes sense that resisting the dragon also means they resisted his power as well which would have corrupted them.

    @Talonblaze.3175 said:
    AND if we include Balthazar, even his magic spread to the others and he didn't even possess dragon magic.

    Actually he did, back in Living world 3 Balthazar absorbed a great deal of magic from Primordus and Jormag after we broke the machine he was using to channel their powers against one another.
    This could very well be one of the reasons why his magic was attracted to and absorbed by an unconscious Aurine before Kralkatorrik sucked the rest of it up.

    The Bloodstone that Balthazar absorbed also contained Zhaitan and Mordremoth magic as well as stated in the white mantle journals.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    The Sylvari resisted Mordremoth and never succumb to his will thus they were not converted into the more powerful Mordrem forms.
    The term minion doesn't really apply to them, Yes they have a link to the Jungle Dragon but they were born and nurtured by the Pale Tree as individuals with free will.
    The Sylvari are not the same as Mordrem, Risen, Branded or Destroyers.. they are unique and none of them gained any dragon power from Mordremoth until they completely succumbed to his will so it makes sense that resisting the dragon also means they resisted his power as well which would have corrupted them.

    @Talonblaze.3175 said:
    AND if we include Balthazar, even his magic spread to the others and he didn't even possess dragon magic.

    Actually he did, back in Living world 3 Balthazar absorbed a great deal of magic from Primordus and Jormag after we broke the machine he was using to channel their powers against one another.
    This could very well be one of the reasons why his magic was attracted to and absorbed by an unconscious Aurine before Kralkatorrik sucked the rest of it up.

    The Bloodstone that Balthazar absorbed also contained Zhaitan and Mordremoth magic as well as stated in the white mantle journals.

    I've not seen those journals but the Bloodstones or stone was originally created to protect magic from the dragons.
    It's possible with the deaths of 2 elder dragons though that the magic unleashed was powerful enough to partially corrupt or damage the stones.. then the tampering of the mantle eventually broke one.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    The Sylvari resisted Mordremoth and never succumb to his will thus they were not converted into the more powerful Mordrem forms.
    The term minion doesn't really apply to them, Yes they have a link to the Jungle Dragon but they were born and nurtured by the Pale Tree as individuals with free will.
    The Sylvari are not the same as Mordrem, Risen, Branded or Destroyers.. they are unique and none of them gained any dragon power from Mordremoth until they completely succumbed to his will so it makes sense that resisting the dragon also means they resisted his power as well which would have corrupted them.

    @Talonblaze.3175 said:
    AND if we include Balthazar, even his magic spread to the others and he didn't even possess dragon magic.

    Actually he did, back in Living world 3 Balthazar absorbed a great deal of magic from Primordus and Jormag after we broke the machine he was using to channel their powers against one another.
    This could very well be one of the reasons why his magic was attracted to and absorbed by an unconscious Aurine before Kralkatorrik sucked the rest of it up.

    The Bloodstone that Balthazar absorbed also contained Zhaitan and Mordremoth magic as well as stated in the white mantle journals.

    I've not seen those journals but the Bloodstones or stone was originally created to protect magic from the dragons.
    It's possible with the deaths of 2 elder dragons though that the magic unleashed was powerful enough to partially corrupt or damage the stones.. then the tampering of the mantle eventually broke one.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Grand_Savant_Valis_the_Learned's_Research_Journal

    Here ya go.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    The Sylvari resisted Mordremoth and never succumb to his will thus they were not converted into the more powerful Mordrem forms.
    The term minion doesn't really apply to them, Yes they have a link to the Jungle Dragon but they were born and nurtured by the Pale Tree as individuals with free will.
    The Sylvari are not the same as Mordrem, Risen, Branded or Destroyers.. they are unique and none of them gained any dragon power from Mordremoth until they completely succumbed to his will so it makes sense that resisting the dragon also means they resisted his power as well which would have corrupted them.

    @Talonblaze.3175 said:
    AND if we include Balthazar, even his magic spread to the others and he didn't even possess dragon magic.

    Actually he did, back in Living world 3 Balthazar absorbed a great deal of magic from Primordus and Jormag after we broke the machine he was using to channel their powers against one another.
    This could very well be one of the reasons why his magic was attracted to and absorbed by an unconscious Aurine before Kralkatorrik sucked the rest of it up.

    The Bloodstone that Balthazar absorbed also contained Zhaitan and Mordremoth magic as well as stated in the white mantle journals.

    I've not seen those journals but the Bloodstones or stone was originally created to protect magic from the dragons.
    It's possible with the deaths of 2 elder dragons though that the magic unleashed was powerful enough to partially corrupt or damage the stones.. then the tampering of the mantle eventually broke one.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Grand_Savant_Valis_the_Learned's_Research_Journal

    Here ya go.

    Ahh thanks much ^^
    I do have that journal somewhere in my bank but totally forgot about it lol

    They grew with each dragon death, that's a good reminder to have, they must have absorbed a great deal of dragon magic as you said.
    Makes you wonder just how powerful Kralky would be right now if they hadn't huh O.O

  • Aaron Ansari.1604Aaron Ansari.1604 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    The Sylvari resisted Mordremoth and never succumb to his will thus they were not converted into the more powerful Mordrem forms.
    The term minion doesn't really apply to them, Yes they have a link to the Jungle Dragon but they were born and nurtured by the Pale Tree as individuals with free will.
    The Sylvari are not the same as Mordrem, Risen, Branded or Destroyers.. they are unique and none of them gained any dragon power from Mordremoth until they completely succumbed to his will so it makes sense that resisting the dragon also means they resisted his power as well which would have corrupted them.

    @Talonblaze.3175 said:
    AND if we include Balthazar, even his magic spread to the others and he didn't even possess dragon magic.

    Actually he did, back in Living world 3 Balthazar absorbed a great deal of magic from Primordus and Jormag after we broke the machine he was using to channel their powers against one another.
    This could very well be one of the reasons why his magic was attracted to and absorbed by an unconscious Aurine before Kralkatorrik sucked the rest of it up.

    The Bloodstone that Balthazar absorbed also contained Zhaitan and Mordremoth magic as well as stated in the white mantle journals.

    I've not seen those journals but the Bloodstones or stone was originally created to protect magic from the dragons.
    It's possible with the deaths of 2 elder dragons though that the magic unleashed was powerful enough to partially corrupt or damage the stones.. then the tampering of the mantle eventually broke one.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Grand_Savant_Valis_the_Learned's_Research_Journal

    Here ya go.

    The wording there is... odd. Valis doesn't say the Bloodstone absorbed the magic from Zhaitan and Mordremoth, but rather, that the increase of magic in the surrounding environment 'excites' the magic within the Stone. What that actually entails is anyone's guess.

    R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 27, 2018

    @Aaron Ansari.1604 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    The Sylvari resisted Mordremoth and never succumb to his will thus they were not converted into the more powerful Mordrem forms.
    The term minion doesn't really apply to them, Yes they have a link to the Jungle Dragon but they were born and nurtured by the Pale Tree as individuals with free will.
    The Sylvari are not the same as Mordrem, Risen, Branded or Destroyers.. they are unique and none of them gained any dragon power from Mordremoth until they completely succumbed to his will so it makes sense that resisting the dragon also means they resisted his power as well which would have corrupted them.

    @Talonblaze.3175 said:
    AND if we include Balthazar, even his magic spread to the others and he didn't even possess dragon magic.

    Actually he did, back in Living world 3 Balthazar absorbed a great deal of magic from Primordus and Jormag after we broke the machine he was using to channel their powers against one another.
    This could very well be one of the reasons why his magic was attracted to and absorbed by an unconscious Aurine before Kralkatorrik sucked the rest of it up.

    The Bloodstone that Balthazar absorbed also contained Zhaitan and Mordremoth magic as well as stated in the white mantle journals.

    I've not seen those journals but the Bloodstones or stone was originally created to protect magic from the dragons.
    It's possible with the deaths of 2 elder dragons though that the magic unleashed was powerful enough to partially corrupt or damage the stones.. then the tampering of the mantle eventually broke one.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Grand_Savant_Valis_the_Learned's_Research_Journal

    Here ya go.

    The wording there is... odd. Valis doesn't say the Bloodstone absorbed the magic from Zhaitan and Mordremoth, but rather, that the increase of magic in the surrounding environment 'excites' the magic within the Stone. What that actually entails is anyone's guess.

    He does state in the journal that the Bloodstone grew when Zhaitan died and that it happened with more extreme after Mordremoth’s death.

    “The bloodstone itself continues to grow. Over the past few days, hundreds of new crystals have appeared in the clearing surrounding the stone.

    Continue reading.

    This phenomenon coincided with Zhaitan's death just days ago, and I would be foolish to assume the events were unrelated. It's amazing to think the stone could be affected from as far away as Orr!

    ——

    Another dragon felled, and the stone reacted far more than when Zhaitan died. We have now harvested enough magic to activate the Unseen One's ancient guardians.”

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 27, 2018

    @Its Nerfing Time.1495 said:
    Multi corrupted controlled by one dragon controlling said energies. It's been shown that dragon energies at opposing ends cancel each other out (primordus/jormag for example), so unless the power was controlled by one, they would end each other yes? And yet the Inquest have managed to contain that. So they have actually done "more" than the Dragons normally could.

    Jormag created a minion with opposing energies, though it resulted in something unstable. All three creatures made of multi-energies by the Inquest appear unstable, particularly Subject Alpha. Kudu's Monster, which is a bit more stable, could only channel one energy at a time unlike Alpha or Beta; Beta seems to have gained stability through Kralkatorrik absorbing those powers first. Even then, Mordremoth apparently used death magic without instability.

    So no, they've not done more than the Elder Dragons could.

    And the points remain: 1) it can be done. 2) there is zero evidence that dragon minions are immune to corruption by other Elder Dragons, but evidence countering this claim. and 3) sylvari immunity is outright stated, three times at least, to be caused by "the Pale Tree's protection" that they can ignore to become Soundless (aka the Dream).

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    I've not seen those journals but the Bloodstones or stone was originally created to protect magic from the dragons.
    It's possible with the deaths of 2 elder dragons though that the magic unleashed was powerful enough to partially corrupt or damage the stones.. then the tampering of the mantle eventually broke one.

    The Bloodstones apparently absorb ambient magic when its amount greatly increases (at the same time, it slowly leaks out magic when fractured, so ever since the gods broke it into five large pieces, it's been slowly leaking magic). I wouldn't say the act of growing due to more ambient magic corrupted or damaged the stones, since we heard of no problems coming from the Ring of Fire Bloodstone when we were right next door to it.

  • Aaron Ansari.1604Aaron Ansari.1604 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 27, 2018

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Aaron Ansari.1604 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    The Sylvari resisted Mordremoth and never succumb to his will thus they were not converted into the more powerful Mordrem forms.
    The term minion doesn't really apply to them, Yes they have a link to the Jungle Dragon but they were born and nurtured by the Pale Tree as individuals with free will.
    The Sylvari are not the same as Mordrem, Risen, Branded or Destroyers.. they are unique and none of them gained any dragon power from Mordremoth until they completely succumbed to his will so it makes sense that resisting the dragon also means they resisted his power as well which would have corrupted them.

    @Talonblaze.3175 said:
    AND if we include Balthazar, even his magic spread to the others and he didn't even possess dragon magic.

    Actually he did, back in Living world 3 Balthazar absorbed a great deal of magic from Primordus and Jormag after we broke the machine he was using to channel their powers against one another.
    This could very well be one of the reasons why his magic was attracted to and absorbed by an unconscious Aurine before Kralkatorrik sucked the rest of it up.

    The Bloodstone that Balthazar absorbed also contained Zhaitan and Mordremoth magic as well as stated in the white mantle journals.

    I've not seen those journals but the Bloodstones or stone was originally created to protect magic from the dragons.
    It's possible with the deaths of 2 elder dragons though that the magic unleashed was powerful enough to partially corrupt or damage the stones.. then the tampering of the mantle eventually broke one.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Grand_Savant_Valis_the_Learned's_Research_Journal

    Here ya go.

    The wording there is... odd. Valis doesn't say the Bloodstone absorbed the magic from Zhaitan and Mordremoth, but rather, that the increase of magic in the surrounding environment 'excites' the magic within the Stone. What that actually entails is anyone's guess.

    He does state in the journal that the Bloodstone grew when Zhaitan died and that it happened with more extreme after Mordremoth’s death.

    “The bloodstone itself continues to grow. Over the past few days, hundreds of new crystals have appeared in the clearing surrounding the stone.

    Continue reading.

    This phenomenon coincided with Zhaitan's death just days ago, and I would be foolish to assume the events were unrelated. It's amazing to think the stone could be affected from as far away as Orr!

    ——

    Another dragon felled, and the stone reacted far more than when Zhaitan died. We have now harvested enough magic to activate the Unseen One's ancient guardians.”

    Yes, but before that:

    "Our long vigil over the stone has given us important insight. Over time, the stone has grown larger as events excite the magic it contains—much like a balloon expands when heated.
    Continue reading.
    The stone is nearly three times larger than it was when we first reclaimed it from the jungle."

    With that context, and Valis using 'continues' at the start of the second entry, it seems that he's attributing it to a continuation of the phenomenon that he detailed in the first entry. The Bloodstone magic is reacting to the environmental magic, and consequentially, the Stone is growing larger, but he never attributes it to the Stone absorbing energy- indeed, he never says whether the magic within the Stone is even growing more powerful, just that it's expanding its container, and implying that the process is expediting the harvest of magic.

    I do think the simile is telling, though. Not 'like a balloon expands when filled' but 'like a balloon expands when heated'- when a container grows larger but doesn't actually hold more of its contents. It's a very odd turn of phrase, since it's treating the magic as a substance instead of an energy, and I've no clue why environmental magic would cause Bloodstone magic to react like that... but if all they were saying was the Bloodstone was filling with released magic, there were much clearer ways to do it. This feels deliberate.

    Deliberate, but like I said, odd.

    R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Aaron Ansari.1604 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Aaron Ansari.1604 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    The Sylvari resisted Mordremoth and never succumb to his will thus they were not converted into the more powerful Mordrem forms.
    The term minion doesn't really apply to them, Yes they have a link to the Jungle Dragon but they were born and nurtured by the Pale Tree as individuals with free will.
    The Sylvari are not the same as Mordrem, Risen, Branded or Destroyers.. they are unique and none of them gained any dragon power from Mordremoth until they completely succumbed to his will so it makes sense that resisting the dragon also means they resisted his power as well which would have corrupted them.

    @Talonblaze.3175 said:
    AND if we include Balthazar, even his magic spread to the others and he didn't even possess dragon magic.

    Actually he did, back in Living world 3 Balthazar absorbed a great deal of magic from Primordus and Jormag after we broke the machine he was using to channel their powers against one another.
    This could very well be one of the reasons why his magic was attracted to and absorbed by an unconscious Aurine before Kralkatorrik sucked the rest of it up.

    The Bloodstone that Balthazar absorbed also contained Zhaitan and Mordremoth magic as well as stated in the white mantle journals.

    I've not seen those journals but the Bloodstones or stone was originally created to protect magic from the dragons.
    It's possible with the deaths of 2 elder dragons though that the magic unleashed was powerful enough to partially corrupt or damage the stones.. then the tampering of the mantle eventually broke one.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Grand_Savant_Valis_the_Learned's_Research_Journal

    Here ya go.

    The wording there is... odd. Valis doesn't say the Bloodstone absorbed the magic from Zhaitan and Mordremoth, but rather, that the increase of magic in the surrounding environment 'excites' the magic within the Stone. What that actually entails is anyone's guess.

    He does state in the journal that the Bloodstone grew when Zhaitan died and that it happened with more extreme after Mordremoth’s death.

    “The bloodstone itself continues to grow. Over the past few days, hundreds of new crystals have appeared in the clearing surrounding the stone.

    Continue reading.

    This phenomenon coincided with Zhaitan's death just days ago, and I would be foolish to assume the events were unrelated. It's amazing to think the stone could be affected from as far away as Orr!

    ——

    Another dragon felled, and the stone reacted far more than when Zhaitan died. We have now harvested enough magic to activate the Unseen One's ancient guardians.”

    Yes, but it was growing before that.

    "Our long vigil over the stone has given us important insight. Over time, the stone has grown larger as events excite the magic it contains—much like a balloon expands when heated.
    Continue reading.
    The stone is nearly three times larger than it was when we first reclaimed it from the jungle."

    With that context, and Valis using 'continues' at the start of the second entry, it seems that he's attributing it to a continuation of the phenomenon that he detailed in the first entry. The Bloodstone magic is reacting to the environmental magic, and consequentially, the Stone is growing larger, but he never attributes it to the Stone absorbing energy- indeed, he never says whether the magic within the Stone is even growing more powerful, just that it's expanding its container, and implying that the process is expediting the harvest of magic.

    I just figured that was just what has happening as it doesn’t really explain where the magic went.

    Is the magic just assaulting the outside shell and dissipating? Is it entering the Bloodstone? Is it going somewhere else?

  • @Konig, not quite sure how you're not comprehending this, so I'll go a bit slower.

    Yes, they have gone further because they combined 5 into one. No Elder Dragon has combined more than one, into one being, without them first actually having the powers themselves (i.e. mordremoth/jormag/primordus weren't creating death infused creatures until they had Zhaitan's power). You also completely ignored my point about the powers opposing each other and cancelling each other out, well done you.

    @Aaron - you ignored my point and still refuse to answer it. It's a simple yes or no question.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 28, 2018

    I'd say it's ironic if I wasn't partially convinced at this point you're trolling that it is you who isn't comprehending that the Inquest is literally doing nothing but exposing individuals - and dragon minions - to the Elder Dragon's corruptive magic.

    If they didn't have labs to channel the corruptive magic, which they do not alter in any way, they'd basically be sending them to the Elder Dragons themselves (or rather, their champions).

    Your argument is claiming that if a scientist puts an animal that isn't in a crocodile's native environment in the same room as a crocodile and the crocodile eats said animal without any prompting, the scientist has achieved more than crocodiles in the wild that hunt their own local prey. And they really, honestly, haven't.

    Also, I directly talked about the whole "powers opposing each other and cancelling each other out" bit (which, btw, is rather speculative that it goes beyond Jormag/Primordus at the moment anyways).

  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    I'd say it's ironic if I wasn't partially convinced at this point you're trolling that it is you who isn't comprehending that the Inquest is literally doing nothing but exposing individuals - and dragon minions - to the Elder Dragon's corruptive magic.

    If they didn't have labs to channel the corruptive magic, which they do not alter in any way, they'd basically be sending them to the Elder Dragons themselves (or rather, their champions).

    Your argument is claiming that if a scientist puts an animal that isn't in a crocodile's native environment in the same room as a crocodile and the crocodile eats said animal without any prompting, the scientist has achieved more than crocodiles in the wild that hunt their own local prey. And they really, honestly, haven't.

    Also, I directly talked about the whole "powers opposing each other and cancelling each other out" bit (which, btw, is rather speculative that it goes beyond Jormag/Primordus at the moment anyways).

    Impressive, you completely missed the point again.

    The inquest put 5 magics in one being. This has yet to be done by ONE single elder dragon, who didn't already have the powers in them. Also there's nothing speculative thanks to Deux Ex Taimi and her machine, which was attuned to both ice/fire dragons and only affected them both.

    if they didn't have their labs, they wouldn't be able to expose one individual to 5 elder dragon magics because they'd be corrupted from the first.

  • @Its Nerfing Time.1495 said:
    Also there's nothing speculative thanks to Deux Ex Taimi and her machine, which was attuned to both ice/fire dragons and only affected them both.

    I didn't miss any point, you're just too stubborn to ever accept apparently (or are trolling but if that's the case then you'll not accept this fact either), so I'll ignore that this time and give one final response to you on the other matter:

    Taimi's Machine only points Jormag and Primordus as opposites because that was their "unique weakness". The notion that every Elder Dragon has another as an opposite, such as Mordremoth to Zhaitan, is speculative, as their unique weakness is known and not the - to quote you - "dragon energies at opposing ends".

  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Its Nerfing Time.1495 said:
    Also there's nothing speculative thanks to Deux Ex Taimi and her machine, which was attuned to both ice/fire dragons and only affected them both.

    I didn't miss any point, you're just too stubborn to ever accept apparently (or are trolling but if that's the case then you'll not accept this fact either), so I'll ignore that this time and give one final response to you on the other matter:

    Taimi's Machine only points Jormag and Primordus as opposites because that was their "unique weakness". The notion that every Elder Dragon has another as an opposite, such as Mordremoth to Zhaitan, is speculative, as their unique weakness is known and not the - to quote you - "dragon energies at opposing ends".

    I'm trolling because you can't either:

    A) Accept a point
    B) See a point

    Huh, fancy that. And nice try on the quoting me to try and take what I say out of context. Dragons have their weaknesses and what reason do you have for assuming (should I bold and underline this?) that dragons aren't at opposing ends? If a precedent is set, that's that. Tami's machine was set for those two, imagine it being set for another two hmm?

    You still also glossed over my other point that Inquest have somehow done something other dragons have not, gee I wonder why.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 30, 2018

    @Its Nerfing Time.1495 said:
    Dragons have their weaknesses and what reason do you have for assuming (should I bold and underline this?) that dragons aren't at opposing ends? If a precedent is set, that's that. Tami's machine was set for those two, imagine it being set for another two hmm?

    Proof that you're trolling or at the very least, not reading my replies, honestly, is right here. Because that's not what I said; I never said that the dragons aren't at opposite ends. I said that there's no actual proof for them being opposites or counteractive - I was ignoring my own speculation in this statement and merely stating the facts (something you've yet to do).

    And a precedent of one is not a precedence, especially when it is countered.

    Your source for "Elder Dragon energies are in opposing pairs" is that Jormag and Primordus are each other's unique weakness. However, Mordremoth's unique weakness was his own mind, and Zhaitan's unique weakness was his over-reliance on unique minions, while Kralkatorrik's unique weakness is his own crystalline resonance.

    This means that 2 out of 5 known unique weaknesses is "another Elder Dragon" - and in all honesty, that may not be true, as we see with Jormag's tooth being shattered by ancient jotun fire magic while the spirit of Fire is used by the Kodan to hold off Jormag's corruption, indicating that it is a certain field of fire magic that is Jormag's unique weakness, not specifically Primordus.

    @Its Nerfing Time.1495 said:
    You still also glossed over my other point that Inquest have somehow done something other dragons have not, gee I wonder why.

    Because I give up trying to get you to see that they haven't.

  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Its Nerfing Time.1495 said:
    Dragons have their weaknesses and what reason do you have for assuming (should I bold and underline this?) that dragons aren't at opposing ends? If a precedent is set, that's that. Tami's machine was set for those two, imagine it being set for another two hmm?

    Proof that you're trolling or at the very least, not reading my replies, honestly, is right here. Because that's not what I said; I never said that the dragons aren't at opposite ends. I said that there's no actual proof for them being opposites or counteractive - I was ignoring my own speculation in this statement and merely stating the facts (something you've yet to do).

    And a precedent of one is not a precedence, especially when it is countered.

    Your source for "Elder Dragon energies are in opposing pairs" is that Jormag and Primordus are each other's unique weakness. However, Mordremoth's unique weakness was his own mind, and Zhaitan's unique weakness was his over-reliance on unique minions, while Kralkatorrik's unique weakness is his own crystalline resonance.

    This means that 2 out of 5 known unique weaknesses is "another Elder Dragon" - and in all honesty, that may not be true, as we see with Jormag's tooth being shattered by ancient jotun fire magic while the spirit of Fire is used by the Kodan to hold off Jormag's corruption, indicating that it is a certain field of fire magic that is Jormag's unique weakness, not specifically Primordus.

    @Its Nerfing Time.1495 said:
    You still also glossed over my other point that Inquest have somehow done something other dragons have not, gee I wonder why.

    Because I give up trying to get you to see that they haven't.

    What proof exactly? You seem to have no problems putting words in my mouth or taking what I said out of context. If Taimi has made the point, it's because Devs programmed that in. Furthermore, they programmed in every interaction her machine had with the two dragons, which wouldn't happen without reason. She made her machine based on her thought of them being opposite each other, machine would not have worked if this weren't true.

    Correct (for once so far) in that dragons have their own weakness, which I mentioned but didn't bother outlining because pretty much everybody is aware of it. My point was a precedent has been set, and you seem very eager to gloss over it, or try and avoid it with a simple one line statement.

    The other aspects of fire damaging the tooth / hold off the corruption shows that fire may be Jormags weakness, but not to the same level as Primordus (who is the elder dragon of fire..).

    You gave up because you finally clicked you don't have anything to counter my point.

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