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Sylvari & The Dragons Predicament

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  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 27, 2018

    @Its Nerfing Time.1495 said:
    Multi corrupted controlled by one dragon controlling said energies. It's been shown that dragon energies at opposing ends cancel each other out (primordus/jormag for example), so unless the power was controlled by one, they would end each other yes? And yet the Inquest have managed to contain that. So they have actually done "more" than the Dragons normally could.

    Jormag created a minion with opposing energies, though it resulted in something unstable. All three creatures made of multi-energies by the Inquest appear unstable, particularly Subject Alpha. Kudu's Monster, which is a bit more stable, could only channel one energy at a time unlike Alpha or Beta; Beta seems to have gained stability through Kralkatorrik absorbing those powers first. Even then, Mordremoth apparently used death magic without instability.

    So no, they've not done more than the Elder Dragons could.

    And the points remain: 1) it can be done. 2) there is zero evidence that dragon minions are immune to corruption by other Elder Dragons, but evidence countering this claim. and 3) sylvari immunity is outright stated, three times at least, to be caused by "the Pale Tree's protection" that they can ignore to become Soundless (aka the Dream).

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    I've not seen those journals but the Bloodstones or stone was originally created to protect magic from the dragons.
    It's possible with the deaths of 2 elder dragons though that the magic unleashed was powerful enough to partially corrupt or damage the stones.. then the tampering of the mantle eventually broke one.

    The Bloodstones apparently absorb ambient magic when its amount greatly increases (at the same time, it slowly leaks out magic when fractured, so ever since the gods broke it into five large pieces, it's been slowly leaking magic). I wouldn't say the act of growing due to more ambient magic corrupted or damaged the stones, since we heard of no problems coming from the Ring of Fire Bloodstone when we were right next door to it.

  • Aaron Ansari.1604Aaron Ansari.1604 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 27, 2018

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Aaron Ansari.1604 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    The Sylvari resisted Mordremoth and never succumb to his will thus they were not converted into the more powerful Mordrem forms.
    The term minion doesn't really apply to them, Yes they have a link to the Jungle Dragon but they were born and nurtured by the Pale Tree as individuals with free will.
    The Sylvari are not the same as Mordrem, Risen, Branded or Destroyers.. they are unique and none of them gained any dragon power from Mordremoth until they completely succumbed to his will so it makes sense that resisting the dragon also means they resisted his power as well which would have corrupted them.

    @Talonblaze.3175 said:
    AND if we include Balthazar, even his magic spread to the others and he didn't even possess dragon magic.

    Actually he did, back in Living world 3 Balthazar absorbed a great deal of magic from Primordus and Jormag after we broke the machine he was using to channel their powers against one another.
    This could very well be one of the reasons why his magic was attracted to and absorbed by an unconscious Aurine before Kralkatorrik sucked the rest of it up.

    The Bloodstone that Balthazar absorbed also contained Zhaitan and Mordremoth magic as well as stated in the white mantle journals.

    I've not seen those journals but the Bloodstones or stone was originally created to protect magic from the dragons.
    It's possible with the deaths of 2 elder dragons though that the magic unleashed was powerful enough to partially corrupt or damage the stones.. then the tampering of the mantle eventually broke one.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Grand_Savant_Valis_the_Learned's_Research_Journal

    Here ya go.

    The wording there is... odd. Valis doesn't say the Bloodstone absorbed the magic from Zhaitan and Mordremoth, but rather, that the increase of magic in the surrounding environment 'excites' the magic within the Stone. What that actually entails is anyone's guess.

    He does state in the journal that the Bloodstone grew when Zhaitan died and that it happened with more extreme after Mordremoth’s death.

    “The bloodstone itself continues to grow. Over the past few days, hundreds of new crystals have appeared in the clearing surrounding the stone.

    Continue reading.

    This phenomenon coincided with Zhaitan's death just days ago, and I would be foolish to assume the events were unrelated. It's amazing to think the stone could be affected from as far away as Orr!

    ——

    Another dragon felled, and the stone reacted far more than when Zhaitan died. We have now harvested enough magic to activate the Unseen One's ancient guardians.”

    Yes, but before that:

    "Our long vigil over the stone has given us important insight. Over time, the stone has grown larger as events excite the magic it contains—much like a balloon expands when heated.
    Continue reading.
    The stone is nearly three times larger than it was when we first reclaimed it from the jungle."

    With that context, and Valis using 'continues' at the start of the second entry, it seems that he's attributing it to a continuation of the phenomenon that he detailed in the first entry. The Bloodstone magic is reacting to the environmental magic, and consequentially, the Stone is growing larger, but he never attributes it to the Stone absorbing energy- indeed, he never says whether the magic within the Stone is even growing more powerful, just that it's expanding its container, and implying that the process is expediting the harvest of magic.

    I do think the simile is telling, though. Not 'like a balloon expands when filled' but 'like a balloon expands when heated'- when a container grows larger but doesn't actually hold more of its contents. It's a very odd turn of phrase, since it's treating the magic as a substance instead of an energy, and I've no clue why environmental magic would cause Bloodstone magic to react like that... but if all they were saying was the Bloodstone was filling with released magic, there were much clearer ways to do it. This feels deliberate.

    Deliberate, but like I said, odd.

    R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Aaron Ansari.1604 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Aaron Ansari.1604 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    The Sylvari resisted Mordremoth and never succumb to his will thus they were not converted into the more powerful Mordrem forms.
    The term minion doesn't really apply to them, Yes they have a link to the Jungle Dragon but they were born and nurtured by the Pale Tree as individuals with free will.
    The Sylvari are not the same as Mordrem, Risen, Branded or Destroyers.. they are unique and none of them gained any dragon power from Mordremoth until they completely succumbed to his will so it makes sense that resisting the dragon also means they resisted his power as well which would have corrupted them.

    @Talonblaze.3175 said:
    AND if we include Balthazar, even his magic spread to the others and he didn't even possess dragon magic.

    Actually he did, back in Living world 3 Balthazar absorbed a great deal of magic from Primordus and Jormag after we broke the machine he was using to channel their powers against one another.
    This could very well be one of the reasons why his magic was attracted to and absorbed by an unconscious Aurine before Kralkatorrik sucked the rest of it up.

    The Bloodstone that Balthazar absorbed also contained Zhaitan and Mordremoth magic as well as stated in the white mantle journals.

    I've not seen those journals but the Bloodstones or stone was originally created to protect magic from the dragons.
    It's possible with the deaths of 2 elder dragons though that the magic unleashed was powerful enough to partially corrupt or damage the stones.. then the tampering of the mantle eventually broke one.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Grand_Savant_Valis_the_Learned's_Research_Journal

    Here ya go.

    The wording there is... odd. Valis doesn't say the Bloodstone absorbed the magic from Zhaitan and Mordremoth, but rather, that the increase of magic in the surrounding environment 'excites' the magic within the Stone. What that actually entails is anyone's guess.

    He does state in the journal that the Bloodstone grew when Zhaitan died and that it happened with more extreme after Mordremoth’s death.

    “The bloodstone itself continues to grow. Over the past few days, hundreds of new crystals have appeared in the clearing surrounding the stone.

    Continue reading.

    This phenomenon coincided with Zhaitan's death just days ago, and I would be foolish to assume the events were unrelated. It's amazing to think the stone could be affected from as far away as Orr!

    ——

    Another dragon felled, and the stone reacted far more than when Zhaitan died. We have now harvested enough magic to activate the Unseen One's ancient guardians.”

    Yes, but it was growing before that.

    "Our long vigil over the stone has given us important insight. Over time, the stone has grown larger as events excite the magic it contains—much like a balloon expands when heated.
    Continue reading.
    The stone is nearly three times larger than it was when we first reclaimed it from the jungle."

    With that context, and Valis using 'continues' at the start of the second entry, it seems that he's attributing it to a continuation of the phenomenon that he detailed in the first entry. The Bloodstone magic is reacting to the environmental magic, and consequentially, the Stone is growing larger, but he never attributes it to the Stone absorbing energy- indeed, he never says whether the magic within the Stone is even growing more powerful, just that it's expanding its container, and implying that the process is expediting the harvest of magic.

    I just figured that was just what has happening as it doesn’t really explain where the magic went.

    Is the magic just assaulting the outside shell and dissipating? Is it entering the Bloodstone? Is it going somewhere else?

  • @Konig, not quite sure how you're not comprehending this, so I'll go a bit slower.

    Yes, they have gone further because they combined 5 into one. No Elder Dragon has combined more than one, into one being, without them first actually having the powers themselves (i.e. mordremoth/jormag/primordus weren't creating death infused creatures until they had Zhaitan's power). You also completely ignored my point about the powers opposing each other and cancelling each other out, well done you.

    @Aaron - you ignored my point and still refuse to answer it. It's a simple yes or no question.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 28, 2018

    I'd say it's ironic if I wasn't partially convinced at this point you're trolling that it is you who isn't comprehending that the Inquest is literally doing nothing but exposing individuals - and dragon minions - to the Elder Dragon's corruptive magic.

    If they didn't have labs to channel the corruptive magic, which they do not alter in any way, they'd basically be sending them to the Elder Dragons themselves (or rather, their champions).

    Your argument is claiming that if a scientist puts an animal that isn't in a crocodile's native environment in the same room as a crocodile and the crocodile eats said animal without any prompting, the scientist has achieved more than crocodiles in the wild that hunt their own local prey. And they really, honestly, haven't.

    Also, I directly talked about the whole "powers opposing each other and cancelling each other out" bit (which, btw, is rather speculative that it goes beyond Jormag/Primordus at the moment anyways).

  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    I'd say it's ironic if I wasn't partially convinced at this point you're trolling that it is you who isn't comprehending that the Inquest is literally doing nothing but exposing individuals - and dragon minions - to the Elder Dragon's corruptive magic.

    If they didn't have labs to channel the corruptive magic, which they do not alter in any way, they'd basically be sending them to the Elder Dragons themselves (or rather, their champions).

    Your argument is claiming that if a scientist puts an animal that isn't in a crocodile's native environment in the same room as a crocodile and the crocodile eats said animal without any prompting, the scientist has achieved more than crocodiles in the wild that hunt their own local prey. And they really, honestly, haven't.

    Also, I directly talked about the whole "powers opposing each other and cancelling each other out" bit (which, btw, is rather speculative that it goes beyond Jormag/Primordus at the moment anyways).

    Impressive, you completely missed the point again.

    The inquest put 5 magics in one being. This has yet to be done by ONE single elder dragon, who didn't already have the powers in them. Also there's nothing speculative thanks to Deux Ex Taimi and her machine, which was attuned to both ice/fire dragons and only affected them both.

    if they didn't have their labs, they wouldn't be able to expose one individual to 5 elder dragon magics because they'd be corrupted from the first.

  • @Its Nerfing Time.1495 said:
    Also there's nothing speculative thanks to Deux Ex Taimi and her machine, which was attuned to both ice/fire dragons and only affected them both.

    I didn't miss any point, you're just too stubborn to ever accept apparently (or are trolling but if that's the case then you'll not accept this fact either), so I'll ignore that this time and give one final response to you on the other matter:

    Taimi's Machine only points Jormag and Primordus as opposites because that was their "unique weakness". The notion that every Elder Dragon has another as an opposite, such as Mordremoth to Zhaitan, is speculative, as their unique weakness is known and not the - to quote you - "dragon energies at opposing ends".

  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Its Nerfing Time.1495 said:
    Also there's nothing speculative thanks to Deux Ex Taimi and her machine, which was attuned to both ice/fire dragons and only affected them both.

    I didn't miss any point, you're just too stubborn to ever accept apparently (or are trolling but if that's the case then you'll not accept this fact either), so I'll ignore that this time and give one final response to you on the other matter:

    Taimi's Machine only points Jormag and Primordus as opposites because that was their "unique weakness". The notion that every Elder Dragon has another as an opposite, such as Mordremoth to Zhaitan, is speculative, as their unique weakness is known and not the - to quote you - "dragon energies at opposing ends".

    I'm trolling because you can't either:

    A) Accept a point
    B) See a point

    Huh, fancy that. And nice try on the quoting me to try and take what I say out of context. Dragons have their weaknesses and what reason do you have for assuming (should I bold and underline this?) that dragons aren't at opposing ends? If a precedent is set, that's that. Tami's machine was set for those two, imagine it being set for another two hmm?

    You still also glossed over my other point that Inquest have somehow done something other dragons have not, gee I wonder why.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 30, 2018

    @Its Nerfing Time.1495 said:
    Dragons have their weaknesses and what reason do you have for assuming (should I bold and underline this?) that dragons aren't at opposing ends? If a precedent is set, that's that. Tami's machine was set for those two, imagine it being set for another two hmm?

    Proof that you're trolling or at the very least, not reading my replies, honestly, is right here. Because that's not what I said; I never said that the dragons aren't at opposite ends. I said that there's no actual proof for them being opposites or counteractive - I was ignoring my own speculation in this statement and merely stating the facts (something you've yet to do).

    And a precedent of one is not a precedence, especially when it is countered.

    Your source for "Elder Dragon energies are in opposing pairs" is that Jormag and Primordus are each other's unique weakness. However, Mordremoth's unique weakness was his own mind, and Zhaitan's unique weakness was his over-reliance on unique minions, while Kralkatorrik's unique weakness is his own crystalline resonance.

    This means that 2 out of 5 known unique weaknesses is "another Elder Dragon" - and in all honesty, that may not be true, as we see with Jormag's tooth being shattered by ancient jotun fire magic while the spirit of Fire is used by the Kodan to hold off Jormag's corruption, indicating that it is a certain field of fire magic that is Jormag's unique weakness, not specifically Primordus.

    @Its Nerfing Time.1495 said:
    You still also glossed over my other point that Inquest have somehow done something other dragons have not, gee I wonder why.

    Because I give up trying to get you to see that they haven't.

  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Its Nerfing Time.1495 said:
    Dragons have their weaknesses and what reason do you have for assuming (should I bold and underline this?) that dragons aren't at opposing ends? If a precedent is set, that's that. Tami's machine was set for those two, imagine it being set for another two hmm?

    Proof that you're trolling or at the very least, not reading my replies, honestly, is right here. Because that's not what I said; I never said that the dragons aren't at opposite ends. I said that there's no actual proof for them being opposites or counteractive - I was ignoring my own speculation in this statement and merely stating the facts (something you've yet to do).

    And a precedent of one is not a precedence, especially when it is countered.

    Your source for "Elder Dragon energies are in opposing pairs" is that Jormag and Primordus are each other's unique weakness. However, Mordremoth's unique weakness was his own mind, and Zhaitan's unique weakness was his over-reliance on unique minions, while Kralkatorrik's unique weakness is his own crystalline resonance.

    This means that 2 out of 5 known unique weaknesses is "another Elder Dragon" - and in all honesty, that may not be true, as we see with Jormag's tooth being shattered by ancient jotun fire magic while the spirit of Fire is used by the Kodan to hold off Jormag's corruption, indicating that it is a certain field of fire magic that is Jormag's unique weakness, not specifically Primordus.

    @Its Nerfing Time.1495 said:
    You still also glossed over my other point that Inquest have somehow done something other dragons have not, gee I wonder why.

    Because I give up trying to get you to see that they haven't.

    What proof exactly? You seem to have no problems putting words in my mouth or taking what I said out of context. If Taimi has made the point, it's because Devs programmed that in. Furthermore, they programmed in every interaction her machine had with the two dragons, which wouldn't happen without reason. She made her machine based on her thought of them being opposite each other, machine would not have worked if this weren't true.

    Correct (for once so far) in that dragons have their own weakness, which I mentioned but didn't bother outlining because pretty much everybody is aware of it. My point was a precedent has been set, and you seem very eager to gloss over it, or try and avoid it with a simple one line statement.

    The other aspects of fire damaging the tooth / hold off the corruption shows that fire may be Jormags weakness, but not to the same level as Primordus (who is the elder dragon of fire..).

    You gave up because you finally clicked you don't have anything to counter my point.

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