What happened in pug raiding? Skill level is really low (RANT THREAD) — Guild Wars 2 Forums

What happened in pug raiding? Skill level is really low (RANT THREAD)

What happened in pug ? I haven't pugged in a while since i have a static. This week due to irl things i was not able to join my static for the weekly clears so i decided to pug. Oh boy it was nightmarish. Some bosses are absolutely impossible for the average pug:

(I was playing as chrono in most of the encounters, either tank or off tank)

First of all, Deimos: i have been in various party of deimos this week, ages to full the whole group since it requires some particular roles. With one group i had to gg 3 TIMES in the first phase (yeah deimos was not even on the field) cause dps could not dodge his smash in the underground. YEAH 3 TIMES
I cant count how many groups had people happily walked into blacks, even in ranged strat. In some groups where i swapped to bs i was doing more dps than most dps.
Notice: in most of the encounters the group was 250li+.

Dhuum : have been in 3-4 party of 30kp+ , hard to get even to 50%, there is always the dude screwing up with greens (i usually take one green myself in order to at least have a sure one), or even worse, the dude screwing up with the bomb, killing the whole group by not noticing the afflicted. Oh i have seen a group where basically the whole squad decided after some time that walking in front of dhuum and facetanking his scythe was a good idea...(notice, they walked in front of him, dhuum was facing the right direction, tank was doing a good job)

Luckily i cleared Xera with static the only day i could play with them.
The only clean run i had was the W1 run. I commanded it and required almost 30 min to full the group (i was asking for a 250li ping plus some more after them in rapid succesion, just to reduce the proabbility of a fake pinger)
I will not go into details of the absoultely trash dps most pugs do (can't even reach 20 k personal dps which is not even that high), and the capability to NEVER stay in the right position.

DISCLAIMER NO PUGS WERE FLAMED (even though they probably deserved it)
I tend to be a cheerful person, i NEVER flamed a single person. If the group is not ok by my standards i just write, "sorry this is going nowhere" and leave.

Just what is happening in pugs ? All the good players must be in statics obv.
Now i understand why so many posts about "dps shaming" or "meta trash" or whatever complaint some people come up with for not wanting to invest 20 min of their life in gearing and learning a decent rotation and some mech on their main char.

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Comments

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @polvere.2805 said:
    What happened in pug ? I haven't pugged in a while since i have a static. This week due to irl things i was not able to join my static for the weekly clears so i decided to pug. Oh boy it was nightmarish. Some bosses are absolutely impossible for the average pug:

    (I was playing as chrono in most of the encounters, either tank or off tank)

    First of all, Deimos: i have been in various party of deimos this week, ages to full the whole group since it requires some particular roles. With one group i had to gg 3 TIMES in the first phase (yeah deimos was not even on the field) cause dps could not dodge his smash in the underground. YEAH 3 TIMES
    I cant count how many groups had people happily walked into blacks, even in ranged strat. In some groups where i swapped to bs i was doing more dps than most dps.
    Notice: in most of the encounters the group was 250li+.

    Dhuum : have been in 3-4 party of 30kp+ , hard to get even to 50%, there is always the dude screwing up with greens (i usually take one green myself in order to at least have a sure one), or even worse, the dude screwing up with the bomb, killing the whole group by not noticing the afflicted. Oh i have seen a group where basically the whole squad decided after some time that walking in front of dhuum and facetanking his scythe was a good idea...(notice, they walked in front of him, dhuum was facing the right direction, tank was doing a good job)

    Luckily i cleared Xera with static the only day i could play with them.
    The only clean run i had was the W1 run. I commanded it and required almost 30 min to full the group (i was asking for a 250li ping plus some more after them in rapid succesion, just to reduce the proabbility of a fake pinger)
    I will not go into details of the absoultely trash dps most pugs do (can't even reach 20 k personal dps which is not even that high), and the capability to NEVER stay in the right position.

    DISCLAIMER NO PUGS WERE FLAMED (even though they probably deserved it)
    I tend to be a cheerful person, i NEVER flamed a single person. If the group is not ok by my standards i just write, "sorry this is going nowhere" and leave.

    Just what is happening in pugs ? All the good players must be in statics obv.
    Now i understand why so many posts about "dps shaming" or "meta trash" or whatever complaint some people come up with for not wanting to invest 20 min of their life in gearing and learning a decent rotation and some mech on their main char.

    Probably the outcome of raiders leaving the GW2 raid scene for something more reliable and timely.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 25, 2018

    @polvere.2805 said:
    Just what is happening in pugs ? All the good players must be in statics obv.
    Now i understand why so many posts about "dps shaming" or "meta trash" or whatever complaint some people come up with for not wanting to invest 20 min of their life in gearing and learning a decent rotation and some mech on their main char.

    Ask for 600 LI or more (and even that is sometimes not enough). That way you can at least hope that people have experienced fights often enough to know what they are doing.

    I made a similar observation last week, basically it's multiple factors:

    • people who have been casually raiding without killing any of the wing bosses have reached 300+ LI by now (and more). Since they were never required to learn the wing boss fights, that's where the groups disband or fail
    • people being unwilling to take on any extra task or work. This is also very visible in the constant lack of chronomancer since this role is often most burdened with mechanics
    • experienced raiders either quit or join a static or do their full clear runs in 60+ Dhuum KP groups

    Also remember that you are essentially comparing PUG groups to your static. Even a mediocre static will outperform 90% of all PUG groups. Most evident on arc and the dps values people reach.

    Sub 300 LI is the new 50 LI from the past. It's actually sometimes worse since people think they are bringing good performance because of the amount of LI they have thus not practicing or aiming to improve. 50 LI players actually might still work on rotations and try to learn mechanics.

    @FOX.3582 said:
    I told people this from the beginning but no one tends to listen until it’s too late! Raids (although I clear them myself weekly) are really bad for this particular game. For years and years Arenanet created a player-base of people who've learned that you can do and achieve everything there is in game, by just auto-attacking. There was only a small group of hardcore players crying their eyes out for “hardcore” content. Arenanet, wanting to be friends with everyone, came up with “raids”. And what we have now is the majority of the player-base leaving because the new prestige content is too hard for them, while the hardcore players are also leaving because (let’s face it) raids in this game are easy as ...

    There is your problem. Don’t go out of your league to fix it, Arenanet listens to nobody.

    Given the fraction of the player base who actually play raid content, this assumption is highly flawed. Here, this thread might be of interest to you:
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/61193/raiding-is-on-the-verge-of-destroying-huge-segments-of-the-gw2-community-if-it-hasnt-already/p1

    A more realistic assumption is:

    • GROUP 1: a majority of the player base do not care about raids and/or are not exposed to them in any way (very casual players or simply uninterested in raids)
    • GROUP 2: a small group of players engages in raids and succeeds (hardcore, dedicated or simply well organized time wise)
    • GROUP 3: another tiny group of players wants to engage in raids but lacks either the time, skill or correct approach to actually succeed in raids

    Group 3 is the group you are currently in. You want the raid rewards but are unwilling and/or un-able to produce the required performance and/or organization to succeed. You thus extrapolate your experience onto the entire player base. That said, neither group 2 or group 3 are of any big significance (if we leave aside that either group might be composed of wales who leave a lot of money with the game).

  • Takes too long to get new wings out, having to wait 9 months for a new wing is not fun anymore and theres no much incentive to do raids.
    The legendary armor was a good reward to keep players hooked in raids for a long time, but now is only 1 legendary ring, is not that big deal and its taking too long to finish it.
    Over 1 year for 1 ring is too much, the ring should be finished with w6.

    Legendary insights are useless to me now too, so no much reason to do w1-w4, only for the gold.

    Raids need a bigger reward to keep players motivated to do weekly full clear, some big reward that uses Li and LD together.

  • maxwelgm.4315maxwelgm.4315 Member ✭✭✭

    You answered it yourself, most seasoned raiders only do it with their statics and the other bunch of seasoned raiders are leaving or flat out don't make an effort anymore lest they end up stressed like you during their pugging. There is no new blood at all, everyone either gives up as soon as they realize they have to train for the content before doing the content, which doesn't matter if you think this is OK and natural, as I also do, but this is unique to GW2 even among other raiding games, and it is directly related to the lack of vertical progression to trivialize encounters. Or, they don't even try to start because they have a predisposition to not get involved in organized group content.

    A high selling point of GW2 since release was the play how you want and when you want motto. It has always been a game friendly to players who play sporadically and leave for several months before returning again. Even fractals follow this with a reliable, tiered structure and sporadic updates that allow people to get back on it soon as they return to the game. sPvP and WvW are just as friendly to plug&play grouping even if you happen to be in an organized guild. Raids changed this logic and remain the only content to shake up this established feature of the game, while at the same time not "going all the way" and actually presenting the challenge that raiders have asked for. Said challenge would admittedly even further diminish the population anyway, so not worth it. In short, nothing happened to pug raiding, it was always bad but now you have become reasonably good amidst everyone else who hasn't, in a game that is not even about raiding, let alone pug raiding.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 25, 2018

    I think the picture is just a random outcome like it has been in dungeons years ago (people joined zerker runs in cleric gear and no clue etc. etc.) and in fractals still to the recent day. Sometimes you have that bad week and sometimes you are very lucky. In addition negative things tend to stay in your memory while only the most important positive ones.
    I usually pug some raid bosses with my alt account and at first I'm going for the easier ones like W4 B1-3 & Escort. Most of these groups have a single stupid wipe but get the bosses down in the next attempt. Very easy LIs even if you join runs with less than 250 LI (have reached 200 with my alt last week).
    I admit that for example Cyninja made some good valid points but on the other hand we are talking about Dhuum, Xera, Deimos (although I found him not so hard and cannot understand people stepping into blacks during melee strat) as member of the harder bosses.
    Of course, if you have dedicated players playing their roles those bosses aren't a threat but a lot of players try out something new in pug runs and they don't care about failing & wiping because they already got their weekly kills. I have seen a couple of streamers randomly joining raid squads and not performing well. They had their kills and just didn't care about the team. That's one reason (maybe not the most substantial) why there are high LI & KP fails.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vinceman.4572 said:
    I admit that for example Cyninja made some good valid points but on the other hand we are talking about Dhuum, Xera, Deimos (although I found him not so hard and cannot understand people stepping into blacks during melee strat) as member of the harder bosses.
    Of course, if you have dedicated players playing their roles those bosses aren't a threat but a lot of players try out something new in pug runs and they don't care about failing & wiping because they already got their weekly kills. I have seen a couple of streamers randomly joining raid squads and not performing well. They had their kills and just didn't care about the team. That's one reason (maybe not the most substantial) why there are high LI & KP fails.

    True, that is also one of the more tricky aspects of wing bosses. Thanks for mentioning this since I had completely forgotten to put that in. Almost all of the wing bosses require additional organization and work from both the entire team as well as select individuals:

    • Sabetha - requires the group to properly throw greens (team) as well as cannon jumpers (individual)
    • Matthias - organized cc on sacrifice as well as dealing with both poisons (team) as well as reflects (individual)
    • Xera - proper phases to get back fast on platform with randomly chosen players (team) as well as Ambient Magic raid wipe (individual)
    • Deimos - dealing with saul and not stepping into green (team) as well as black kite, hand kite, special tanking (all individual)
    • Dhuum - proper positioning and final phase switches (team) as well as three greens (individual)

    In general the wing boss fights will result in a faster wipe (or instant) if the players with individual roles mess up. Contrary to many not wing boss fights where such mistakes are not automatically a wipe. As such it is inherently easier to carry inexperienced players on fights up to the last boss and many players lack the ambition or opportunity (it's way more frustrating to practice as a PUG than as a static so this is not only PUG players fault) to practice the wing bosses. After all, most are only needed 1nce for the legendary armor and the remaining LI can just be farmed off of easier bosses.

  • polvere.2805polvere.2805 Member ✭✭✭

    You have all said some interesting things. You gave me an idea on a future thread on the flaws of the raid design of GW, once i sort my thoughts on it i will probably open a thread that is not written on a whim like this one.

    Back in the topic: What i don't get is why a random average pug joins a run or a boss that he can't do, moreover if he sees an high LI req. Is he hoping to get carried ? I don't think it's fun to wipe over and over on stupid things even if you want to get carried. Bosses like deimos xera and dhuum have overly tedious "pre fight" phases that makes wiping even worse.

    Also as someone said in a post, gw2 raiding is NOT hard. Most mechanics are indeed easy, the "hard" part is only figuring them and understanding how to deal with them. The so feared dhuum greens are indeed quite easy but stressful as you have to costantly pay attention to timer and to the other greens. If the other members dont play correctly you are basically inviting the guys who decided to take on the "hard job" to leave thus making your wannabe carry run even worse as you will have to wait again for some more wannabe carry guys.

    To me these kind of people just seem really stupid. You are ruining someone else run and also your run!! Total no sense

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @polvere.2805 said:
    You have all said some interesting things. You gave me an idea on a future thread on the flaws of the raid design of GW, once i sort my thoughts on it i will probably open a thread that is not written on a whim like this one.

    Back in the topic: What i don't get is why a random average pug joins a run or a boss that he can't do, moreover if he sees an high LI req. Is he hoping to get carried ? I don't think it's fun to wipe over and over on stupid things even if you want to get carried. Bosses like deimos xera and dhuum have overly tedious "pre fight" phases that makes wiping even worse.

    Simple to answer, most will probably have 1 or 2 kills on the boss (which to them means they understand and can do the boss). Not realizing that they likely were heavy carried in other groups. People also want the kills, if it doesn't work out, no big loss for the inexperienced player. They are not used to clearing the boss regularly in the first place so its some time wasted at most with chance at a boss clear.

    @polvere.2805 said:
    Also as someone said in a post, gw2 raiding is NOT hard. Most mechanics are indeed easy, the "hard" part is only figuring them and understanding how to deal with them. The so feared dhuum greens are indeed quite easy but stressful as you have to costantly pay attention to timer and to the other greens. If the other members dont play correctly you are basically inviting the guys who decided to take on the "hard job" to leave thus making your wannabe carry run even worse as you will have to wait again for some more wannabe carry guys.

    To me these kind of people just seem really stupid. You are ruining someone else run and also your run!! Total no sense

    That's one of the possible results depending on who leaves first. In case the commander removes low performers and replaces them the group might succeed, this happens when the comm or core group of the run/raid want their full clear at all cost. In most cases the raid simply disbands. In some cases all experienced players leave (or a majority) and the remaining group devolves into an involuntary training run where the group wipes for a couple of tries before it disbands.

    As far as difficulty, no raids are not difficult, but they are and require a very different approach and understanding to the game not present in any of the other pve segments (except maybe fractal CM modes). As such many people never get taught how to prepare for raids and this content. Unless you bring experience from another MMO, are willing to do a lot of research and practice or have people guiding and helping you, it is a very steep uphill battle. Again one of the reasons I always tell people to FIND A TRAINING GUILD.

  • ReaverKane.7598ReaverKane.7598 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 25, 2018

    OP replied to his own question in his first paragraph.
    Just like you stoped pugging because you got a static group, the same happened to most other decent Raiders. Lets face it, a chunk of the PVE comunity are toxic casuals, that won't do kitten about being unable to pull their own weight and then come to the forums whining they got kicked because they had less DPS than a dead cat.
    This environment isn't exactly conducive for people to want and help PUGs and new players, so they either form training guilds where they can have some control over the people that go into the raid, or they just play with static groups.

  • lots of fakers nowadays. put ping kp 4x in LFG. done.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 26, 2018

    @OP
    There are a few reasons for that, but all can be summed up by the statement you yourself used: I haven't pugged in a while since i have a static.

    Everyone that can and is more serious about raiding tries to get themselves a static. That of course means that the pug lists are made up of people that are just starting, aren't that new but couldn't find a static, and those that do have a static, but are playing around.

    The first group is new (or relatively new, compared to rest), so obviously they do not know all the fights by heart yet, and that is all the more true for the last boss fights in a wing.

    In the second group there are people that aren't good enough to get in a good static, those that aren't enough dedicated (or are simply incapable of required time commitments) to get into one, those that lost their static for many reasons...
    Some of them may, again, still be inexperienced on the last wing bosses - there are a lot of people that run only the easy ones, and try the harder ones very rarely (if ever).

    A major point to notice here, for both first and second group is that it's way, way easier to learn boss fights if you have a static. It's much harder to do that while only pugging (especially if you're only starting your raiding). And since on many fights it's not that hard to carry one player, it's entirely possible to get a score of kills without fully understading what's going on.

    Third group players may be more experienced, but they also aren't that serious about succeeding. They've probably already done full clear with their main group, and are there either only to kill time, or to test some new builds/strats. That doesn't mean they will be intentionally slacking, but they may not be as invested in the success of the fight as the other party members.

    So, in short: most of the players you'd like to pug with don't pug at all - they are in statics.

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @polvere.2805 said:
    You have all said some interesting things. You gave me an idea on a future thread on the flaws of the raid design of GW, once i sort my thoughts on it i will probably open a thread that is not written on a whim like this one.

    Back in the topic: What i don't get is why a random average pug joins a run or a boss that he can't do, moreover if he sees an high LI req. Is he hoping to get carried ? I don't think it's fun to wipe over and over on stupid things even if you want to get carried. Bosses like deimos xera and dhuum have overly tedious "pre fight" phases that makes wiping even worse.

    Simple to answer, most will probably have 1 or 2 kills on the boss (which to them means they understand and can do the boss). Not realizing that they likely were heavy carried in other groups. People also want the kills, if it doesn't work out, no big loss for the inexperienced player. They are not used to clearing the boss regularly in the first place so its some time wasted at most with chance at a boss clear.

    Also, for most of them, there's likely no other way (or at least no other way they know of) to learn those fights. If there are no low req LFGs present, they may feel the need to join the high ones, hoping that maybe this time they won't be kicked right away. Videos are good, but you can't really learn the fight without actually attempting it.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • SkyShroud.2865SkyShroud.2865 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The amount of new blood is low, proportion to the number of new blood to the game itself. This amount of low new blood accompanied with the community inability to tolerant new blood which lead to lower retain ratio make it even lower number of new blood. Naturally, low new blood doesn't means no new blood, they pug whenever possible and try to learn a bit of anything whenever possible. Some might tell them to go training raid but reality is training raid is never available at all times nor do they ever get enough people at all times.

    This is why people form static team, this is to filter out new blood, taking in only decent players. Yes, this is elitism, is a reality. This yet again reduce the retain ratio.

    This is just how the game is. It is a declining game mode. Surprised that anet even spend so much resources on this self destructing mode.

    Founder & Leader of Equinox Solstice [TIME], a Singapore-Based International PvX Guild
    Henge of Denravi Server
    www.gw2time.com

    --

    Explanations of WvW Structures & Populations Issues

  • I've stopped raiding completely because I mostly had to pug raid and having a constant struggle with most encounters took too long and I felt like doing something more time worthy

  • polvere.2805polvere.2805 Member ✭✭✭

    @SkyShroud.2865 said:
    The amount of new blood is low, proportion to the number of new blood to the game itself. This amount of low new blood accompanied with the community inability to tolerant new blood which lead to lower retain ratio make it even lower number of new blood. Naturally, low new blood doesn't means no new blood, they pug whenever possible and try to learn a bit of anything whenever possible. Some might tell them to go training raid but reality is training raid is never available at all times nor do they ever get enough people at all times.

    This is why people form static team, this is to filter out new blood, taking in only decent players. Yes, this is elitism, is a reality. This yet again reduce the retain ratio.

    This is just how the game is. It is a declining game mode. Surprised that anet even spend so much resources on this self destructing mode.

    Err, about this i am not too sure. Inside my guild which is NOT a training guild we have a running static (mine) and every week we organise training runs for other guildies interested in raiding but too new to form their static or go in pug groups. If 1 out of 10 guilds does like us then a lot of new fresh blood will come in raid scene.

    I honestly don't believe the argument of "raiding is dying", or at least if raiding is indeed dying i think it's more because anet releases raids REALLY slow. The time in between W5 and W6 was really long, even though i quite liked W6 and how encounters were designed.

    in the end it's not even an LI problem, it's a problem of attitude that a lot of player have. They come in raids and expect to have success without effort nor time investment.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @polvere.2805 said:
    Err, about this i am not too sure. Inside my guild which is NOT a training guild we have a running static (mine) and every week we organise training runs for other guildies interested in raiding but too new to form their static or go in pug groups. If 1 out of 10 guilds does like us then a lot of new fresh blood will come in raid scene.

    I have seen (and been in) several guilds that do exactly that. In all of them the new players were barely enough to keep the raid team afloat. You kept training new players, but by the time you had a few of them, the same number of veterans were gone from the game.
    Also, most of the new raid trainees do not stay for long. For every 10 people you have trained up to the competent level, maybe 1-2 will continue raiding.

    Yes, there is some fresh blood coming to raid scene, but all it does is slowing the decay.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • SkyShroud.2865SkyShroud.2865 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 27, 2018

    ^Knows how things works.

    1 guild out of 10 guilds will never be enough to bring up the retain ratio to a sustainable level. Personally, I do respect that 1 guild more than that 9 other guilds but reality is, the strength of one single guild cannot change the outcome. Still, I do appreciate them for stepping outside the norm.

    Founder & Leader of Equinox Solstice [TIME], a Singapore-Based International PvX Guild
    Henge of Denravi Server
    www.gw2time.com

    --

    Explanations of WvW Structures & Populations Issues

  • zoomborg.9462zoomborg.9462 Member ✭✭✭

    I'll give you a small example of what's happening atm in pugs. I join a deimos group (250li) as tank. Commander asks for ranged strat while 90% of current dps builds are completely trash from range. I ask the commander to go melee strat but he insists. We start the fight and around 65% i pull deimos at the edge.Suddenly i notice a thief came all the way to the edge to melee the boss and instantly steps on black wiping the group.
    Commander flames me cause i asked for melee strat and the group wiped because of it. I'm literally speechless at that point and i realize the whole group has almost no other experience except pew pew and grind the kill,completely clueless of what melee means and probably never tried it even with "250 li", especially some people saying "melee on deimos sucks". I try to explain that melee strat isnt just about melee but keeping the boss near the center so boons are properly distibuted, u can aegis stomps for the group and bubble is one foot away, but commander just rages thinking its melee strat cause one person went melee at the edge, then proceeds to kick me and block me in chat. The gap between veterans and newbies is way too big atm, both in terms of dps and mechanics.

    As the OP said, veterans have slowly but steadily left the pug scene leaving the casual raiders to fend for themselves to the point where going mid on VG or melee on Deimos is considered suicidal and should not be done at any cost. The fear of wiping is so much bigger than the drive to get better at the game, which has always been the way casuals engage raids, the problem is, what do u do when 90% of the pug groups follow that mentality?

    I used to have a static but been away for a few months due to army obligations, came back to raiding only to realize the pug scene has indeed went from bad to worse, to the point were i'd rather not raid at all than pug. Feels like a whole new scene atm (in a bad way).

  • Talindra.4958Talindra.4958 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 27, 2018

    IMO i don't think raid needs to be highly skilled to play. But a good team play matter more.. when a guy fail with a mechanic, how can a team continue until getting the group through? Instead of when a guy fail blame him straight away or point finger at druid or chrono or dps. Team work matters most. Human makes errors.. how can you pick up the pace when someone make an error?
    Eg 1 .. sab cannon guy die.. anyone can bu. just someone with good experience, no skill needed.. that person jump to platform get bounce to canon and destroy it and fly back.. what skill needed? Eg 2, dhuum green guy down.. anyone can go green right. No skill needed .. just someone who are confident enough to go Green then pick up 4 small orbs and one big orbs. Ofc you need to know how to pick orbs you don't just try to run like headless checken.. experience count.
    What I mean is, everyone in the group has the duty to make sure you are there to help other team mates that need to do certain mechanic. Everyone are equally responsible to get the boss down together. Stop the blaming mentality.. such a bad attitude towards raid.
    Also, I am quite tired of some new raiders just expect to be carried and don't put effort to learn at all. They just want to get their goal eg leg armour done etc and think you are their LI farming bot. If you are serious about raid.. want to learn.. jump into beginner group and wipe with them. That is how you learn.. by many wipes you get to learn how to be good team players.

    Death is Energy [DIE] in EU
    Envoy's Herald, CoZ, VitV, DD, SS, The Eternal, LNHB, Champion Magus, Champion Phantom, Wondrous Achiever etc.

  • Talindra.4958Talindra.4958 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 27, 2018

    Also.. with pugs. Do not expect. Just play.
    Those you have a static.. lucky you. Some of players that has different arrangement for work and or those who can't raid at normal peak hours.. they don't have the luxury that you have. So don't come over here to rant about how sux the current pug is. You have a static that does FC w1to6 under 3 hours or 2.5 hrs? Thats good on you m8!
    Btw... I have been playing raid since start.. many raiders that start at the beginning has stopped playing this game. Although we constantly see new raiders rising slowly. Many use fake link too, and you know it as soon as you watch them play. I also found recent pug community is more forgiving on players who genuinely want to learn. Compared to before it is actually friendlier to before. Ofc you still occasionally gets nasty attitude here and there. You see worse in some armatuer guild that think they are above everyone and when they pug one or two ppl, they bully the pug.. I rather these people stay out of pug forever. There are many many nice people I have met in raids. They aren't just nice.. but they are experienced and good team players.
    The benefit of playing with pug is, you get to meet these people and play with them.. they come from all over the world.

    Death is Energy [DIE] in EU
    Envoy's Herald, CoZ, VitV, DD, SS, The Eternal, LNHB, Champion Magus, Champion Phantom, Wondrous Achiever etc.

  • Laila Lightness.8742Laila Lightness.8742 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 27, 2018

    Another reason for low incoming of new blood is difficulty. Gw 2 was sold as being easy and casual nothing in open world or story really prepare you for the spike in difficulty. And the tolerance is low for many just want their weekly kills done as smooth and fast as possible

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 27, 2018

    @Talindra.4958 said:
    Btw... I have been playing raid since start.. many raiders that start at the beginning has stopped playing this game. Although we constantly see new raiders rising slowly. Many use fake link too, and you know it as soon as you watch them play. I also found recent pug community is more forgiving on players who genuinely want to learn. Compared to before it is actually friendlier to before. Ofc you still occasionally gets nasty attitude here and there. You see worse in some armatuer guild that think they are above everyone and when they pug one or two ppl, they bully the pug.. I rather these people stay out of pug forever. There are many many nice people I have met in raids. They aren't just nice.. but they are experienced and good team players.

    Wanted to highlight this especially. It mirrors what I have mentioned in the past. One can tell quite fast how serious a person is about actually improving.

    It's also a matter of where and when you join. If you join on a full run for experienced players and do not perform when everyone simply wants to clear the content asap, expect to be greeted with little tolerance for mistakes (depending on the skill level of the group). This counts twice if you faked yourself in.

    Fun side fact, I had a 192 AP (yes, 192, I did not forget some zeros. Not even sure how he got to 80 and geared with this low AP :o ) join for W5 B1-3 yesterday (we needed a Dhuum ID for guild training tonight) as druid pusher on a twink account (obviously with no KP or LI). He had 1 try, and he nailed it. This wasn't training but the guild members I was running with had a lot less experience on wing 5 and the group as a whole with PUGs was solid enough to give it a shot.

    If you on the other hand join a training run, many experienced raiders who signed up to help will hang in there the full 2-3 hours of tries giving pointers and helping out. At least in any and all training runs I am a part of (2 per week currently).

    So if you are serious about raiding and enjoying the game, GO JOIN A GUILD!

    EDIT: and if you absolutely can't find one, go over to reddit and look up Karma Initiative for EU.

  • Henry.5713Henry.5713 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 27, 2018

    Quite an interesting discussion. I wouldn't say it is as easy as blaming the community or this supposed exclusion of anyone new. This might be the case if raids hadn't changed since 2015, if there had not been any new wings since then. It mostly comes down to exactly this raid design and even more so the general design of GW2, if you ask me.

    We have certainly seen some power creep over the years but not through the usual means of new and far more powerful gear or further vertical progression. Not to mention that none of the old raid content has been devalued. You won't see any cap 110 players walk into Wing1 to oneshoot VG for laughs, just like they won't throw away ancient drops (2015) in this game. Quite on the contrary, VG (2015) remains to be just as important as Quadim (2018) or Dhuum (debatably the hardest) as far as acquiring the best-in-slot gear is concerned. So, why then would new players and most pugs focus on beating harder bosses (including Deimos) if Escort is just as rewarding as Dhuum? Hell, more rewarding if you consider success rates.
    Now also consider how raiding was introduced... wing by wing and over a long time. Those who have been there from the very start were clearing one single wing and the same three bosses over and over again each week. We dedicated 100% of our (limited) time in raids killing and mastering those bosses. Owning 50+ LI back then meant you had more than a dozen successful tries on every single boss avaible. Having spend 30 hours in raids meant you had spend 30 hours beating or at least practicing those bosses. Meaning that all of our experience was entirely concentrated on a few bosses. This remained to be the cases for quite a while. Two or three wings are easily manageable by most. Those who came in late mostly grouped with those who that concentrated experience to help them out.
    There are 20 bosses now, however. We all know that it would be laughable to assume the 250 LI on any given pug is going to be spread equally over those bosses. They will have concentrated their time on sure-kills while only trying the harder bosses once or twice. Don't really see why anyone would be surprised about the general level of pugging going down. People at this certain level of experience simply did not have the time to master every boss avaible yet unlike in 2015 or even 2016 when they would have done so by now.

    Nothing is particularly hard if you divide it into small jobs. Henry Ford

  • Froh.3072Froh.3072 Member ✭✭
    edited November 27, 2018

    I'm one of thoses "low skill players" as I'm really new to raids.
    So I'll kinda explain why we do suck (or at least, why I do suck right now), feel free to dismiss my opinion or not, but remember that I took on my time to write this post so you do not go into a full circle of "raids are too easy, others players are too bad, they don't deserve...". Also remember it is HOW I perceive the game as a rather "new" player. So if I'm wrong, that also means that the game can do something bad at teaching me some stuff :

    -> Game is not readable enough. This is the main point, and this is probably due to the number of differents mechanics at one time on the boss + players skills (which we can hardly see) + combos of skills. Sound does help (indicate big hits etc), the red area too (even if you have to know the timing beforehand as the dodge is short). For the rest, I have hard time to see if I'm targeted by something, if I'll explode, etc... Oh ok I have a red zone growing around me, then I'll go away from my mates. Oh wait, someone of my mate have to come on me. The sentence "Choose your allies wisely", yeah, thanks, it helps me a lot to understand what's going on.

    -> Bosses have really strange mechanics. This is okay, refreshing and kinda fun, but the fact that you can't really do any boss without reading about all of his 10 patterns of attacks beforehand because they are not to be understood easily is weird. Maybe Anet could introduce thoses mechanics by not one shotting you when you fail at the beginning (and could increase in damage each time).

    -> Extra skills given for a fight can't really be read during the actual fight. Extra points when you actually have to earn this specific extra skill during the fight by doing something like catching blue bullets while escaping red ones.

    -> Stuff. It is hard for someone new, to come up with more than exotic pieces. It is probably fine when you're doing T4 fractal all the days, but I'm currently stuck into lower fractal tiers because I have only 2 rings and 1 necklace to put agony on. When I say "stuck", I probably have ways to unstuck myself, but thoses ways are kinda obscure at the moment without reading a full guide on how to do it. Then you'll tell me "Hey you can do thoses raids in full exo", yeah, but it's harder. And if the harder part is for the new players rather than the veterans. Yeah, I can guess why they're bored (or why they suck).

    Now I know that the meta builds cost a lot more gold than I can currently handle, by far, so I won't join PUG as I do not have the prerequisite, making me unable to stuff myself as easily.
    -> Rotations. Mesmer, which is my main currently have a "26" rotation combo to learn as a chrono to be useful (on snowcrows at the moment). The fact that the game depends on learning thoses rotations before everything else as you'll really be useless without them doesn't really help. Could have more "easiers specs" on each class while still being relevant to boss fight would have helped.

    So, I don't mind trying again and again a boss. Doing dailies to slowly, really slowly grind stuff to be ABLE to grind it faster. And I certainly don't expect to master a boss the first time I come against. It's just that I'd like an easier time to go in, rather than the current state. But this mostly list my current gripes with the game so far.

  • sigur.9453sigur.9453 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 27, 2018

    First, thank you for the insight of the "new raider expierience", i will comment on thought below

    @Froh.3072 said:
    I'm one of thoses "low skill players" as I'm really new to raids.
    So I'll kinda explain why we do suck (or at least, why I do suck right now), feel free to dismiss my opinion or not, but remember that I took on my time to write this post so you do not go into a full circle of "raids are too easy, others players are too bad, they don't deserve...". Also remember it is HOW I perceive the game as a rather "new" player. So if I'm wrong, that means that the game does something bad at teaching me some stuff :

    true, the game up till lvl 80, teach you nothing exept WASD and general keybindings. or to be exact, not until the point where more knowledge in reguired (Fractal T3+, Raids, Competetive Pvp, & Wvw) and then you need to inform yourself outside the game or if you are lucky someone will explain it to you. poor job of anet, but the majority likes the rather casual aspect of 90% of the game , so they do simply not cary it appears.

    -> Game is not readable enough. This is the main point, and this is probably due to the number of differents mechanics at one time on the boss + players skills (which we can hardly see) + combos of skills. Sound does help (indicate big hits etc), the red area too (even if you have to know the timing beforehand as the dodge is short). For the rest, I have hard time to see if I'm targeted by something, if I'll explode, etc... Oh ok I have a red zone growing around me, then I'll go away from my mates. Oh wait, someone of my mate have to come on me. The sentence "Choose your allies wisely", yeah, thanks, it helps me a lot to understand what's going on.

    i have to dissagree here, at least for raids. i find dungeons harder in that case since there a no red cicles of death. you actually have to look at animations for that.
    Edit: oh and you can always tick the LOD thingy in the options, less visual clutter (not perfect though)

    -> Bosses have really strange mechanics. This is okay, refreshing and kinda fun, but the fact that you can't really do any boss without reading about all of his 10 patterns of attacks beforehand because they are not to be understood easily is weird. Maybe Anet could introduce thoses mechanics by not one shotting you when you fail at the beginning (and could increase in damage each time).

    -> Extra skills given for a fight can't really be read during the actual fight. Extra points when you actually have to earn this specific extra skill during the fight by doing something like catching blue bullets while escaping red ones.

    There are no strange mechanics, there are only new ones.
    and thats the main challenge of raids (by design) to overcome these mechanics.
    for example, if my group is doing a boss for the first time, we don´t just go in and start dps rotation, wipe and repeat, we do the following
    Ping buffs on Boss
    Ping eventually debuffs on players.
    Ping special action key.
    WIPE by special mechanic.
    Read the above and talk about it.
    start again, dps till mechanic, try to solve it, wipe, repeat.

    this goes on for hours, and frankly speacking thats THE MOST FUN times raids can give you.
    clearly you miss something when you only "reading about it" beforhand.
    thats why i allways recomment: for your own group with players on your exp level. sure itneeds longer, but its also more fun/rewarding to do.

    -> Stuff. It is hard for someone new, to come up with more than exotic pieces. It is probably fine when you're doing T4 fractal all the days, but I'm currently stuck into lower fractal tiers because I have only 2 rings and 1 necklace to put agony on. When I say "stuck", I probably have ways to unstuck myself, but thoses ways are kinda obscure at the moment without reading a full guide on how to do it. Then you'll tell me "Hey you can do thoses raids in full exo", yeah, but it's harder. And if the harder part is for the new players rather than the veterans. Yeah, I can guess why they're bored (or why they suck).

    first set of asc. gear is the hardest one, yes. but in case you didn´t know, there are arhievments that give you asc. armour and weapons. they still are time consuming, but you may even get some fun out of it.

    -> Rotations. Mesmer, which is my main currently have a "26" rotation combo to learn as a chrono to be useful (on snowcrows at the moment). The fact that the game depends on learning thoses rotations before everything else as you'll really be useless without them doesn't really help. Could have more "easiers specs" on each class while still being relevant to boss fight would have helped.

    if your are going for support chrono, i can guaranty you, everyone would love to get you in theit static/pug group, if you manage it half decently.
    also whilce SC rotations are "optimal" there are other ways to play your charakter and achiev equal results. don´t "try to hard" make it so you are confy playing it. (nobody is expecting 100%)

    So, I don't mind trying again and again a boss. Doing dailies to slowly, really slowly grind stuff to be ABLE to grind it faster. And I certainly don't expect to master a boss the first time I come against. It's just that I'd like an easier time to go in, rather than the current state. But this mostly list my current gripes with the game so far.

    its sounds you already have the right mindset, but are afraid of failing (sorry if my assuming goes to far), but i can assure youthat if you find the right ppl/guild you can be a seasoned raider in no time.

    Edit: lots of typos, but inet is really slow, and i can´t fix it in a "reasonable" time. sorry for the hard read

  • Well I will not quote your sentences one by one.
    But I have to precise a bit : This is not a random rant from someone that can't do any stuff, I just find, that, as a game, a lot can be improved and could be better. I have the guild, I'll improve with training. That's not the point here. It's just, that I can understand that there's less players now than before and this is what can block you at lower level of entries.
    I assure you that compared to a LOT OF games out there, this one is not the most readable. The fact that dungeons are harder to read does not mean it's okay either.

    About thoses strange mechanics, you tell me there is not, only new ones. Well, I don't see how novelty can't be seen as strange. There's a lot of mechanics that you don't see at all during this game or another game, and that just pop out of nowhere. Again, this is fine. It's just that they're not readable enough (or explained at all).

  • Draco.9480Draco.9480 Member ✭✭✭

    one word, FEEDERS.
    also anet spoiled all those bad players with easy content that people won't think for 'emselves at all nor react to anything. and just press buttons randomly and play garbage builds that don't even work against those specific bosses nor use proper compositions. people don't even look at the ground and feed the boss all the time and blaming toxicity while they fail the super basic.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 27, 2018

    Since the start of the game, Anet has failed to prepare casual and/or PUG level players for what they will experience in Dungeons, Fracs or Raids. Even if they dumb it down, most of these people will still not understand what is necessary; Raids are simply too sensitive to individual mistakes to make them open to these kinds of players. It's not even about the best build or comps at this point; I've always said, you can't put a bad player in a meta build and win. Feeding bad players meta builds and hoping they improve has always been a fallacy. Where has that gotten the game after 5 years?

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • polvere.2805polvere.2805 Member ✭✭✭

    @Froh.3072
    It's clear that you are not part of the "bad players" that i talked about in my original post: you are a new player and you are just trying to learn which is totally fine! The point is that after you learn you should not be failing certain mechanics or underperform on your role. In every party i joined me or the commander were looking for some players with 250 li+: players that SHOULD at least know what they should be doing and perform it to a certain degree, 250 li means that it's at least 3 months that you are costantly playing raids every week, it's just absurd that you don't know at least the basics after 3 months. I don't expect SC bench on every boss, but i do expect that people don't do stupid mistakes that CLEARLY show that they don't know the fight which is required to kill a boss.

    Don't make me started on fakers...if at least a faker could pull off his weight i could care less about LI, but if a dude with actual LI can't pull his weight i really doubt that a dishonest person that has even less experience could achieve something...i usually accept people that ask me to join with lower LI than required if they are honest about it and know the bosses. They usually are the better players because they know that they have to prove their skills to stay in the group.

    For the learning part: raids are not that hard, trust me, i played mmos where group content is WAY harder than GW and with a lot less tips. It's just that it's TOTALLY different from the rest of the game. GW2 is basically solo playing with the chanche to meet people in open world. Coordination is not required, you just do your thing and everything works fine. Even fractals or dungeon don't really require coordination to clear. Maybe you are slower than an optimized group but that's it. The BIG difference is that in raid you have to juggle aroung with your party member, and if you don't you lose. Simple.
    This thing it's NORMAL in every mmo, apparently a big part of the GW2 playerbase instead thinks that it's not. In every other mmo you have to go read guides to raid, gear up your chars, learn the boss attacks etc. etc.
    Apparently what should be a big feature of the game that should help players to get into it is indeed a problem: you can play 90% of the game having fun casually without having to go read guides to do every thing (a lot of mmo are like that tbh), but as soon as some preparation is needed problems arise!

    For the visual clutter: you just have to get used to it and juggle a little bit with your video settings, it was the same for me at the start. After 3 weeks of trying bosses i was already seeing every mechanics. Usually watching a video where you are not actively playing helps understand.

    The problem here is that people want to get carried trough content, and this is absurd to me. Why do you even play that mode ?? The core problem is the design of a lot of fights where basically 3-4 people are doing the boss while the others are playing the DPS golem. Usually those people are the supports that usually are indeed the best players in the squad, simply because they MUST know the boss well to perform their role.

  • Talindra.4958Talindra.4958 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 28, 2018

    @henry
    Totally agree on every word you said.
    Back in day one it was a total change.. beating vg was a thing, then gorse was a shock then sab was mad.. those days, 50li was a big thing, everyone started at the same level. .. there were only few that had consistent fc since week one.. and one li difference in early week really prove good play .. now a days, you can carry a newbie two months later they are near completion for their leg armour and ofc experience wise it's much much different to the players who get their first leg in the very early raid.. in every pug group you get a mix of different experience level of players.. likelihood of getting boss cleared for newbie are higher than early days of raid. Having said that, it doesn't mean every pug with 250li are not good enough.. they are good enough to progress for better.. but you see the difference in experience and team play level for players with 250li in the early release of raid and new player with 250li.
    That is why I said if I join a 300li group.. I will not expect and just play.. just enjoy it :) if you don't enjoy it.. then just say I'm sorry I have to go.. leave take a break if needed and cone back later.
    @froh the bad players to me are players with bad attitude. Newbie to raid I would say players with little experience and it will improve only by continue playing and training.. wiping :) reading researching and understand each and every mechanic.. you will only get better.. I have a good advice. You just have to be very honest to commander. PM him and said what you can do.. .. good commander will help you. Also as @Cyninja.2954 said you want a better experience in raid, join a raid training guild. Ppl should be helpful there.. but I am not 100% sure if all raid training guild are kind. You just have to look around I guess. Bare in mind many ppl who likes to do raid do not have the time to play.. and some has shift work commitments so they aren't flexible to sticking to scheduled raid at peak hours.. ppl like these are usually going for pug raid.. I have met many ppl who are good and capable in pug. And let me say again.. you get to meet many diff ppl in pug :) sometimes I like it tht way xD

    Death is Energy [DIE] in EU
    Envoy's Herald, CoZ, VitV, DD, SS, The Eternal, LNHB, Champion Magus, Champion Phantom, Wondrous Achiever etc.

  • @maxwelgm.4315 said:
    You answered it yourself, most seasoned raiders only do it with their statics and the other bunch of seasoned raiders are leaving or flat out don't make an effort anymore lest they end up stressed like you during their pugging. There is no new blood at all, everyone either gives up as soon as they realize they have to train for the content before doing the content, which doesn't matter if you think this is OK and natural, as I also do, but this is unique to GW2 even among other raiding games, and it is directly related to the lack of vertical progression to trivialize encounters. Or, they don't even try to start because they have a predisposition to not get involved in organized group content.

    A high selling point of GW2 since release was the play how you want and when you want motto. It has always been a game friendly to players who play sporadically and leave for several months before returning again. Even fractals follow this with a reliable, tiered structure and sporadic updates that allow people to get back on it soon as they return to the game. sPvP and WvW are just as friendly to plug&play grouping even if you happen to be in an organized guild. Raids changed this logic and remain the only content to shake up this established feature of the game, while at the same time not "going all the way" and actually presenting the challenge that raiders have asked for. Said challenge would admittedly even further diminish the population anyway, so not worth it. In short, nothing happened to pug raiding, it was always bad but now you have become reasonably good amidst everyone else who hasn't, in a game that is not even about raiding, let alone pug raiding.

    I agree with a lot of what this person says.

    All the new blood gets alienated if they don't want to conform to this constant push for people to be whatever the Meta is on their character.
    Not everyone wants to become this cookie cutter version of their class.
    This game was supposed to allow you to break the molds of other MMO's by allowing you to really be whatever you want via stats and builds.
    Yet, there are certain classes with certain builds no matter how good someone has made it that people will not give a chance too.

    I want to participate in raids, but I don't want to do it with the community that is there that expects you to be whatever they want you to be. I want to take people through who don't care about failure and have a build that is right for them and see what we can do.
    The community at large doesn't allow people to be whatever they want in raids which goes against the rest of the game.
    Heck, there isn't even different difficulties in the sense like other games with raids in them, that can allow the average player to get through them but with slightly lowered reward that can help them train up their basics with whatever they have and it can help them work up to harder difficulties if they so wish to because learning the main mechanics will be the focus with the bosses health pool and attack damage lower and a small safety net to allow time for people to find their feet. For example, one of the bosses that knock you off a platform. For new players, dodging the attacks isn't easy and it can take a while to get the rhythm but even one small mistake could mess them up. Lower difficulties could have like a small wall block to stop people from getting knocked off and instead knock them down longer so the incentive to learn is still there until they no longer fall off, etc.

    Raids took all the elitist people from dungeons who wanted the maximum DPS to kill level 30 dungeons in like 2 minutes and gave them a place to just hate everyone who doesn't do what they want. It's pretty kitten.

    Founder of Affinitus Nemus [AFNM]
    "Join Us, We're Lonely" - Our Guild At Some Point

    JUST LIKE THE LORAX, WE SPEAK FOR THE TREES!

  • Laila Lightness.8742Laila Lightness.8742 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 28, 2018

    @hellsqueen.3045 said:

    @maxwelgm.4315 said:
    You answered it yourself, most seasoned raiders only do it with their statics and the other bunch of seasoned raiders are leaving or flat out don't make an effort anymore lest they end up stressed like you during their pugging. There is no new blood at all, everyone either gives up as soon as they realize they have to train for the content before doing the content, which doesn't matter if you think this is OK and natural, as I also do, but this is unique to GW2 even among other raiding games, and it is directly related to the lack of vertical progression to trivialize encounters. Or, they don't even try to start because they have a predisposition to not get involved in organized group content.

    A high selling point of GW2 since release was the play how you want and when you want motto. It has always been a game friendly to players who play sporadically and leave for several months before returning again. Even fractals follow this with a reliable, tiered structure and sporadic updates that allow people to get back on it soon as they return to the game. sPvP and WvW are just as friendly to plug&play grouping even if you happen to be in an organized guild. Raids changed this logic and remain the only content to shake up this established feature of the game, while at the same time not "going all the way" and actually presenting the challenge that raiders have asked for. Said challenge would admittedly even further diminish the population anyway, so not worth it. In short, nothing happened to pug raiding, it was always bad but now you have become reasonably good amidst everyone else who hasn't, in a game that is not even about raiding, let alone pug raiding.

    I agree with a lot of what this person says.

    All the new blood gets alienated if they don't want to conform to this constant push for people to be whatever the Meta is on their character.
    Not everyone wants to become this cookie cutter version of their class.
    This game was supposed to allow you to break the molds of other MMO's by allowing you to really be whatever you want via stats and builds.
    Yet, there are certain classes with certain builds no matter how good someone has made it that people will not give a chance too.

    I want to participate in raids, but I don't want to do it with the community that is there that expects you to be whatever they want you to be. I want to take people through who don't care about failure and have a build that is right for them and see what we can do.
    The community at large doesn't allow people to be whatever they want in raids which goes against the rest of the game.
    Heck, there isn't even different difficulties in the sense like other games with raids in them, that can allow the average player to get through them but with slightly lowered reward that can help them train up their basics with whatever they have and it can help them work up to harder difficulties if they so wish to because learning the main mechanics will be the focus with the bosses health pool and attack damage lower and a small safety net to allow time for people to find their feet. For example, one of the bosses that knock you off a platform. For new players, dodging the attacks isn't easy and it can take a while to get the rhythm but even one small mistake could mess them up. Lower difficulties could have like a small wall block to stop people from getting knocked off and instead knock them down longer so the incentive to learn is still there until they no longer fall off, etc.

    Raids took all the elitist people from dungeons who wanted the maximum DPS to kill level 30 dungeons in like 2 minutes and gave them a place to just hate everyone who doesn't do what they want. It's pretty kitten.

    Yes you are right in this game was meant to be easy and the sooner anet nerf raids the better to as easy as player want it to be.and nerf all meta builds to the lowest possible combo so all will have exact same dps that will be best for all. And remove mechanics wich forces the use of specific skills like cc. (This irony since core game could be beaten by autoattacking, the game was too easy didnt engage the player very much while many ignored 90% of their abillities. Elitism will always exist one way to fix it is limit everyone to exact same amoth of dps, heals, health and amor So no class would be better.

  • sigur.9453sigur.9453 Member ✭✭✭

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:

    @hellsqueen.3045 said:

    @maxwelgm.4315 said:
    You answered it yourself, most seasoned raiders only do it with their statics and the other bunch of seasoned raiders are leaving or flat out don't make an effort anymore lest they end up stressed like you during their pugging. There is no new blood at all, everyone either gives up as soon as they realize they have to train for the content before doing the content, which doesn't matter if you think this is OK and natural, as I also do, but this is unique to GW2 even among other raiding games, and it is directly related to the lack of vertical progression to trivialize encounters. Or, they don't even try to start because they have a predisposition to not get involved in organized group content.

    A high selling point of GW2 since release was the play how you want and when you want motto. It has always been a game friendly to players who play sporadically and leave for several months before returning again. Even fractals follow this with a reliable, tiered structure and sporadic updates that allow people to get back on it soon as they return to the game. sPvP and WvW are just as friendly to plug&play grouping even if you happen to be in an organized guild. Raids changed this logic and remain the only content to shake up this established feature of the game, while at the same time not "going all the way" and actually presenting the challenge that raiders have asked for. Said challenge would admittedly even further diminish the population anyway, so not worth it. In short, nothing happened to pug raiding, it was always bad but now you have become reasonably good amidst everyone else who hasn't, in a game that is not even about raiding, let alone pug raiding.

    I agree with a lot of what this person says.

    All the new blood gets alienated if they don't want to conform to this constant push for people to be whatever the Meta is on their character.
    Not everyone wants to become this cookie cutter version of their class.
    This game was supposed to allow you to break the molds of other MMO's by allowing you to really be whatever you want via stats and builds.
    Yet, there are certain classes with certain builds no matter how good someone has made it that people will not give a chance too.

    I want to participate in raids, but I don't want to do it with the community that is there that expects you to be whatever they want you to be. I want to take people through who don't care about failure and have a build that is right for them and see what we can do.
    The community at large doesn't allow people to be whatever they want in raids which goes against the rest of the game.
    Heck, there isn't even different difficulties in the sense like other games with raids in them, that can allow the average player to get through them but with slightly lowered reward that can help them train up their basics with whatever they have and it can help them work up to harder difficulties if they so wish to because learning the main mechanics will be the focus with the bosses health pool and attack damage lower and a small safety net to allow time for people to find their feet. For example, one of the bosses that knock you off a platform. For new players, dodging the attacks isn't easy and it can take a while to get the rhythm but even one small mistake could mess them up. Lower difficulties could have like a small wall block to stop people from getting knocked off and instead knock them down longer so the incentive to learn is still there until they no longer fall off, etc.

    Raids took all the elitist people from dungeons who wanted the maximum DPS to kill level 30 dungeons in like 2 minutes and gave them a place to just hate everyone who doesn't do what they want. It's pretty kitten.

    Yes you are right in this game was meant to be easy and the sooner anet nerf raids the better to as easy as player want it to be.and nerf all meta builds to the lowest possible combo so all will have exact same dps that will be best for all. And remove mechanics wich forces the use of specific skills like cc.

    i heard for the player that want easier content there is this small niche project called open world and living story. could be wrong here, just rumors from an elitist ingame friend.

  • Grogba.6204Grogba.6204 Member ✭✭✭

    You know, the scary thing that I cannot tell if Laila is full on sarcastic/trolling or genuinely believes what he/she writes on the boards.

  • @Grogba.6204 said:
    You know, the scary thing that I cannot tell if Laila is full on sarcastic/trolling or genuinely believes what he/she writes on the boards.

    Its sarcasm honestly

  • @hellsqueen.3045
    i understand what your saying.
    You need to have a group of people who want to do that, and i havent found them yet in this game.
    My gw1 guild was like that.

    Dont get me wrong, i understand that not all ( maybe even most) players might not want to do this, and wanne use the meta to do raids,
    nothing wrong with that.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 29, 2018

    Heh, it seems that i was way too optimistic in my post above, when i assumed that the third group of potentially problematic pugs (veteran and experienced players that have already done the clear that week in their static, and are pugging to play around, or test new stuff) at least won't be intentionally harming the run.

    As the recent Teapot case (mentioned in another thread on the front page) shows, they may end up doing exactly that. In that case i'd rather have an unexperienced pug wanting to be carried, because they at least don't intend to cause problems.

    Edit: seems that the teapot thread has been quietly removed.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • polvere.2805polvere.2805 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 28, 2018

    Why does every thread about raids get derailed into "we need an easy mode for raids" ? There is already a thread on this subject.

    @hellsqueen.3045
    NO. Thie is just the same mentality that there is in open world. It's just absurd that you want to be able to clear and "hard encounter" (or at least harder than the rest of the game) with whatever random build and random stats you come up with. It would mean that the encounter is so stupidly easy that even naked player could clear it which is just stupid in an MMO. TBH this is the kind of mentality that i was ranting about in my original post. The mentality to play whatever you want however you like and hope to suceed coff get carried coff, while making other 9 persons waste precious gaming time. I don't know if you have the whole day to play Gw2 and get things done, i have not.
    I am not an elitist, if you play something off meta and it works then fine for me. But there are minimum standards that your off meta build must reach. Don't expect me to welcome a full cleric shout warrior with open hands in my raid team.

    OT BEGINS
    This is the only thing i say about easy mode raids: it's totally unnecessary, it's not that hard to organize a training team and the tools to do it are there, you just need to NOT BE UNSOCIAL. if an easy raid mode means less time on developing new content then i am totally against it. If not i am ok with it, just remove rewards from it. If you train for raids you usually spend some time wiping over and over ---> no rewards. Why should you be rewarded for having cleared an even dumbed down encounter that was not that hard in the first place and required just some practise ?
    In the end it's clear that it's not a solution, fractals have easy mode (t1-2-3) when you get to tier 4 you get those random players that don't even know their class and you guess how the hell they made it there. Community solution ? 100 CM kp groups to filter those guys. What has changed ?
    New players don't need easy mode, they need to just be patient as all of us raiders have been. TBH 1 month of spending 2-3 hours a week to train is enough to already get you in most of the encounters if you really are dedicated to it. This is an MMO where you are not supposed to get everything in little time.
    OT ENDS

    After reading again the thread i can sum this up like this:
    New and old Raiders don't be kitten, be honest with your experience, and actually try to play decently and improve. It's not hard and none expects you to play like SC. It's not even required to clear and encounter. Just don't be the wannabe carried boi.

  • maxwelgm.4315maxwelgm.4315 Member ✭✭✭

    @polvere.2805 said:
    Why does every thread about raids get derailed into "we need an easy mode for raids" ? There is already a thread on this subject.

    @hellsqueen.3045
    NO. Thie is just the same mentality that there is in open world. It's just absurd that you want to be able to clear and "hard encounter" (or at least harder than the rest of the game) with whatever random build and random stats you come up with. It would mean that the encounter is so stupidly easy that even naked player could clear it which is just stupid in an MMO. TBH this is the kind of mentality that i was ranting about in my original post. The mentality to play whatever you want however you like and hope to suceed coff get carried coff, while making other 9 persons waste precious gaming time. I don't know if you have the whole day to play Gw2 and get things done, i have not.
    I am not an elitist, if you play something off meta and it works then fine for me. But there are minimum standards that your off meta build must reach. Don't expect me to welcome a full cleric shout warrior with open hands in my raid team.

    OT BEGINS
    This is the only thing i say about easy mode raids: it's totally unnecessary, it's not that hard to organize a training team and the tools to do it are there, you just need to NOT BE UNSOCIAL. if an easy raid mode means less time on developing new content then i am totally against it. If not i am ok with it, just remove rewards from it. If you train for raids you usually spend some time wiping over and over ---> no rewards. Why should you be rewarded for having cleared an even dumbed down encounter that was not that hard in the first place and required just some practise ?
    In the end it's clear that it's not a solution, fractals have easy mode (t1-2-3) when you get to tier 4 you get those random players that don't even know their class and you guess how the hell they made it there. Community solution ? 100 CM kp groups to filter those guys. What has changed ?
    New players don't need easy mode, they need to just be patient as all of us raiders have been. TBH 1 month of spending 2-3 hours a week to train is enough to already get you in most of the encounters if you really are dedicated to it. This is an MMO where you are not supposed to get everything in little time.
    OT ENDS

    After reading again the thread i can sum this up like this:
    New and old Raiders don't be kitten, be honest with your experience, and actually try to play decently and improve. It's not hard and none expects you to play like SC. It's not even required to clear and encounter. Just don't be the wannabe carried boi.

    The point you made about not being unsocial is the key here, to be honest. Like it or not, the social aspect is part of the raiding experience. When raiders say they have to wait to play, they should actually take into account that waiting up on chat is already "raiding". I don't remember if I said this in here or in another thread, but saying that social shenanigans is not part of raiding is like saying that the time you spend inside a locker room with your buddies is not part of soccer or other field sports. The reality is that, for all frustrated veterans, mediocre pugs and disenfranchised newbies alike, it is likely the case that their real problem with the game mode is dealing with the social aspect more so than it is with the content difficulty.

    Note that this does not happen with fractals to this point; players don't really mind (and I've been to many pugs like this) spending 2 hours to complete t4's because they made a "chill t4's LF any" post, as long as they don't have to justify themselves, change their builds or otherwise actually realize they are playing with others and communicate more than the occasional "lol". But if you have to necessarily ping your stuff (reveal things about yourself), volunteer for mechanics (put yourself into a place of responsibility inside your team), and perform according to other people's expectations, naturally you'll see that many, many players will not be willing to do just that. And of course they won't, because GW2 was proposed to them as a game where doing this was an option.

    There is no solution to this IMO because it's not a problem, but rather a feature of the game mode (being intrinsically social, with all the issues and advantages it brings). GW2 was just not developed with this in mind, and to be honest, I think games are slowly but surely moving away from this model; I'm not gonna spend myself on the social commentary here, but the standard MMO group organized, "feels like a job/sport", joining with others to achieve something over the long term kind of game, is dying out.

  • SkyShroud.2865SkyShroud.2865 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Oh no, anet did prepare players on a incremental approach but such approach are threw out the moment they overhaul some of the things. The game is just a complete mess now.

    Founder & Leader of Equinox Solstice [TIME], a Singapore-Based International PvX Guild
    Henge of Denravi Server
    www.gw2time.com

    --

    Explanations of WvW Structures & Populations Issues

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