Why could Mordremoth talk, while other dragons can't? — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Why could Mordremoth talk, while other dragons can't?

Arden.7480Arden.7480 Member ✭✭✭✭
edited November 26, 2018 in Lore

Was Modremoth more intelligent than other dragons? Because we faced 4 dragons already, and only one of them can talk: what about Jormag and Bubbles?

I'd personally want to hear the dragons' voices, maybe they would say the things like: I'll devour you, or something, but to me, it would seem more lively than just some roars and screams.

I thought that with Mordremoth's magic, the dragons will get this ability to speak- somehow gained from this magic. But it seems that only Mordremoth was that brainy.

What about Glint, how did she gain this ability to speak- did Forgotten give her such ability, when they cleansed her? And why Vlast couldn't speak out loud? Will Aurene have her voice-actress, too- at some point?

Comments

  • cNd.1096cNd.1096 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 26, 2018

    Am I wrong or there was moment when Zhaitan said something once?

    Do not go gentle into that good night,
    Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
    Rage, rage against the dying of the light

  • Aeon.4583Aeon.4583 Member ✭✭
    edited November 26, 2018

    Erm, Glint kinda talked. So does Vlast. Also Modremoth didn't exactly talked in Universal Tyrian, rather than Roaring language. Only Sylvari been able to understand it, since he was in their head.

    But in his mind realm, it is another situation in which language didn't apply.

    P.s. Just theory. Only those dragons who are able to connect with mortals, without corrupting them, are able to speak same language. Mordremoth could obtain that from Sylvari who's been living as sentient beings before dragon awake, and their corruption is more like 'turning'. Glint was connected with mortals on certain level, so was Vlast, even tho he didn't feel same way.

  • ProtoGunner.4953ProtoGunner.4953 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I think initially it wasn't intended that they talk at all. It was heavily critisised back in 2012 where Zhaitan was just a silent being, so they changed it in HoT/Mordremoth. Many complained that Zhaitan had no personality but it was important for many people. Anyway, since only Mordremoth really showed up after that there was no room for another dragon to talk. I am pretty sure Kralkatorrik will talk should we face him. Others dragons appearance - namely Primordus' - was too short and only present in one boss fight during LS 3 as I remember.

  • Aaron Ansari.1604Aaron Ansari.1604 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 26, 2018

    This has actually been addressed in the lore, a few times. I'm not in a position to pull up sources right now, but the gist of it is that the dragons' natural manner of thinking and communicating isn't compatible with conventional spoken language. For Glint, and presumably Vlast, it took some substantial amount of time to pick it up; for Aurene, the devs have said that she hasn't had that time yet, at least not on top of all the other things she's been cramming into her two years of life.

    Another interesting note- Glint was retconned into speaking through telepathy, and all of our experiences with Vlast seemed to be of that nature too. That's an ability that was established to be unique to Glint and her children; Kralkatorrik was implied not to have it, and the other dragons have shown no signs either, except for Mordremoth where sylvari are concerned. It's quite possible that the Elder Dragons do understand Tyrian- Zhaitan was explicitly said to be capable of knowing anything its minions knew, after all- but whatever passes for an eldritch abomination's voice box isn't capable of reproducing our syllables.

    (Mordremoth is an odd case here- even if most of what we here through the jungle is mental contact that only sylvari can decipher, the Mouth does clearly speak for all to hear during the Dragon's Stand meta. Given how much control he seems to have over his own growth elsewhere, I can only assume that he deliberately shaped that part of himself to be capable of reproducing spoken language, but why he would go to the trouble is anyone's guess.)

    R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

  • Blocki.4931Blocki.4931 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Just think about who his minions are. They all communicate through voice, in our language. He talks to us, especially Sylvari, to get into our heads, to control our minds. He has to somehow get in there and speaking a language our characters all understand is the first and most important step for doing so.

    What use does Primordus have to talk to us? He doesn't have any human followers. Same for Kralk and Jormag most likely, though he may communicate in some way or another with the Svanir, even if that only means corrupting them he seems to do so because he wants to. Zhaitan probably only had his risen speak our tongue for the simple reason that it is the language they were talking before they died/got corrupted into being risen. Besides that, it might just also be a simple game design choice.

    Logging out forever.

  • Illconceived Was Na.9781Illconceived Was Na.9781 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 26, 2018

    Because we faced 4 dragons already, and only one of them can talk:

    Did Mordremoth actually speak? Or did he communicate mentally, which we translated (within our minds) as speech?


    Am I wrong or there was moment when Zhaitan said something once?

    Right before he died, he said

    Ruh roh.

    "With great power comes not-so-great utility bills."

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭

    Mordremoth was the Dragon of Minds.. he didn't speak directly but rather telepathically.
    Only Sylvari could hear him through most of HoT due to their connection where as the other races would hear a rumbling roar.
    Mordremoth does however speak to the commander despite race during the final battles, in the story this is due to the commanders mind being directly linked to Mordremoth where as in the open world it is mearly for flare and effect.

    It's likely that all of the dragons possess some kind of limited telepathy which is how they control their minions.
    Zhaitan did not speak directly to the commander but he did communicate a few times through his minions who spoke for him.

    We know as well that the other dragons have absorbed elements of the two dead dragons.
    Primordus, Kralkatorrik and Jormag have all created new minions displaying traits of Death, Shadow, Plant and Mind magic.
    We also got to fight one of these new creatures in living world season 3 inside a cave that was covered in giant icy blue mordrem tendrils suggesting that Jormag is sprouting these from his body just like Mordremoth did.

    Chances are we could very well see the remaining dragons develop the ability to speak vocally, Kralkatorrik being the most likely one to speak as he is by far the most powerful right now and one of the only 2 who is currently awake.

  • Jimbru.6014Jimbru.6014 Member ✭✭✭

    Zhaitan spoke a few times through his minions, particularly the Eyes of Zhaitan.

    Mordremoth also spoke through minions, most dramatically through Trahearne, as well as directly when the Commander was in Mordy's mind.

    It is implied in dialogue in the Shiverpeaks that Jormag "spoke" to the Sons of Svanir in some manner.

    Our only "spoken" contact with Vlast was his post-mortem remnant thoughts; his motives were mysterious to the Elonians he died to protect, implying that he didn't talk to them.

    Glint "spoke" in some manner when she was alive, but it's not made clear how. She certainly "speaks" now via spiritual contact from the Mists; she taught Rytlock to be a Revenant, and Heralds channel her power in a sort of mental contact.

    Note that all of these involve either direct mental contact, or speaking through minions. It would therefore seem that the dragons might not be physically capable of human speech, which makes sense for several reasons.

    • The Elder Dragons are primordial forces of nature which likely antedate most other living things in Tyria, much less humans. As such, they had no physical need of speech until lesser beings like us came along. And even now, they don't really need it, given their other abilities.
    • The physical bodies of the Elder Dragons are living mountains, and their vocal anatomy is suited to their size. When moments like Mordremoth's awakening happen, their roars can be heard across the entire world. If they could speak, and assuming we were far enough away to survive the event, we likely couldn't understand them anyhow just for sheer volume.
  • I disagree with your title question. How do you know the other dragons cannot talk?

  • Arden.7480Arden.7480 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 26, 2018

    @Nogothanc.5014 said:

    I disagree with your title question. How do you know the other dragons cannot talk?

    I don't, intriguing questions are the best way to get you some attention, and can lead to some interesting discussions.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 26, 2018

    @Jimbru.6014 said:
    Glint "spoke" in some manner when she was alive, but it's not made clear how. She certainly "speaks" now via spiritual contact from the Mists; she taught Rytlock to be a Revenant, and Heralds channel her power in a sort of mental contact.

    She was both prophetic and telepathic, she could both read minds and communicate with them which even among dragons is said to be a rare ability.
    Aurine also has these abilities although they are nowhere near as developed, being able to see the future and possessing the telepathic power to share those visions with us.
    These powers seem to be growing as we can see she is able to share her visions with multiple people now.
    I would not be surprised if she starts talking in LW5.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 27, 2018

    I don't think Mordremoth actually talked, and it certainly isn't because he was more intelligent. When Glint is described as talking in Season 2, she was stated to be "speaking" into people's minds, not vocally.

    "When she spoke, it was in your head, accompanied by the sound of crystalline wind chimes in harmonious tones."
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Return_to_Camp_Resolve

    The only time we hear Mordremoths' voice is either as sylvari, or when we're so close to him that, as Rytlock says: "I don't got a trace of plant in me, but up here, even I can feel the buzz under my fur." The first time we hear Mordremoth's voice in the story as a non-sylvari is when we're facing Faolain.

    This, in fact, is mirrored by Ogden during Hidden Arcana and Scarlet's Journal:

    Ogden Stonehealer: Glint had the power to communicate with her mind. She learned language from humans this way.
    Ogden Stonehealer: According to her, other dragons speak and think in something I hesitate to call a language. But not Glint.
    Ogden Stonehealer: She learned that humans and other races were not her enemies, but allies to be nurtured.
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hidden_Arcana#At_the_Durmand_Priory

    It communicated with me through images of death, destruction, and destiny. I must know more. I must confront it and put an end to this madness.
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Scarlet_Briar's_Journal

    Indicating that Glint and Mordremoth both began communication through non-word methods - imagry - but in time grew to understand the common tongue of modern races through reading minds. Vlast was most likely the same.

    No other Elder Dragon has telepathic capabilities with non-minions, so there is no ability for them to speak into the PCs' minds. Even with taking the domain of mind, Kralkatorrik seems to use it to improve the pre-existing hive mind, giving minions the ability of viewing what other minions see, rather than using it to search the mind of local creatures. And even then, initial communications would likely be in the form of images rather than words.

  • MyPuppy.8970MyPuppy.8970 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I think it's the same as talking to plants, some do and some don't.

  • I really hope future elder dragons do not speak. Mordremoth became wholly uninteresting after it spoke to us. Mord was a human in dragon skin. Zhaitan was significantly better.

  • @Edelweiss.4261 said:
    I really hope future elder dragons do not speak. Mordremoth became wholly uninteresting after it spoke to us. Mord was a human in dragon skin. Zhaitan was significantly better.

    Just because it can speak your language does not mean it is your species, or even thinks as you do. Granted Anet may not have explored the mind of Mordremoth to its fullest potential, but by that time, I assume they ran out of time and had to at least address the gripe so many people had with the Zhaitan fight.

  • @Castigator.3470 said:

    @Edelweiss.4261 said:
    I really hope future elder dragons do not speak. Mordremoth became wholly uninteresting after it spoke to us. Mord was a human in dragon skin. Zhaitan was significantly better.

    Just because it can speak your language does not mean it is your species, or even thinks as you do.

    Oh, I very much agree with this. What we hear from Mordremoth, however, paints it as thinking exactly as a human does.

  • @Edelweiss.4261 said:

    @Castigator.3470 said:

    @Edelweiss.4261 said:
    I really hope future elder dragons do not speak. Mordremoth became wholly uninteresting after it spoke to us. Mord was a human in dragon skin. Zhaitan was significantly better.

    Just because it can speak your language does not mean it is your species, or even thinks as you do.

    Oh, I very much agree with this. What we hear from Mordremoth, however, paints it as thinking exactly as a human does.

    Personally speaking, even the most egotistical and narcissistic people I've met have never claimed to be the very planet we live on.

    Semi-joking comment aside, I think that mentality is coming from the fact that humans are the only sapient species we actually know. So naturally, to some degree, anything else that is sapient and communicative will feel at least partially human, because the core defining trait that separates humans from "everything else we know" is that we're sapient and capable of communication.

    But taking it in the whole scope of the game, Mordremoth acts as different to us as the charr or sylvari do. There are traces of humanity in there, but this is largely because it 1) has a personality and 2) there is a human writing the personality.

  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Indicating that Glint and Mordremoth both began communication through non-word methods - imagry - but in time grew to understand the common tongue of modern races through reading minds. Vlast was most likely the same.

    And Aurene hasn't spoken with words yet, only through images using her telepathic ability. It looks like we're seeing the very beginnings of what that type of communication can look like through Aurene as the instrument, and we'll watch as she (hopefully) begins using the common tongue to communicate with everyone, since she hasn't yet had enough time to pick up the language yet (timeline wise she's still extremely young, even if the magic shot in the arm made her body grow).

    This is such an interesting discussion as a whole!

    If you join a debate and provide little to no proof when the other side provides lots of evidence, you can't then declare yourself the winner of that debate. Veterans can make signatures apparently.

  • Arden.7480Arden.7480 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 1, 2018

    @Randulf.7614 said:
    These are primordial beings, there is little reason or purpose for them to converse in a Universal language used today in the World. These are beings meant to be beyond our understanding and who consider the races beneath them, so it stands to reason they aren't going to all engage and speak to us beyond what they use their minions and lieutenants for.

    So it's not a case of they can't talk, more why would/should they. And it whilst it could be argued adding a bit of character like this could add depth to them, to me, such Primordial creatures shouldn't behave in comprehensible ways and that includes talking. Mordy was shown to do it, because it fitted the context perfectly. I can't see that with Primordus or Kralkatorrik.

    None of the dragons' creations could talk, beside the ones that were born with this ability. For example none of Primordus' minion hasn't spoken a word. And Mordremoth knew Tyrian, because he had the connection with the Dream- he even sent his most powerful minion- the Shadow of the Dragon to the Dream.

    I presume the Shadow of the Dragon was his alter ego, the minion that gathers informations, while he sleeps. And none of the dragons had such strong connection with Tyrians as Mordremoth and Glint, so I presume that's why they could talk.

    So your point is invalid. The only dragons' minions that can talk are the ones that were previously Tyrians- the Risen could talk, not because it was Zhaitan's will, just because they had the vocal chords, and the contact with the language before they died.

    Same Mordrem, corrupted Svanir, Quaggan, Branded Awakened etc. The Mordrem Vinetooth couldn't speak, because it was never taught to speak- even while his Master could.

    Glint must have blocked her mind connection with Kralkatorrik in the sense of the language, because Kralkatorrik can't speak, and his mind as Snaff, before he died, said- is full of hatred.

    Glint is a very complex character, both her personality and her deeds are in question. Very interesting character indeed, maybe she planned everything? Are we just in a some kind of Matrix that was created by the Gods, the Forgotten and Glint?

    Ok, that was off-topic. :D

    I hope making the contact with the Brotherhood will shed some light on Glint, and will NOT give us some deus-ex-machina solution on the problem we have to deal since Episode 4.

  • Arden.7480Arden.7480 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 6, 2018

    Yes, and there is something that that may indicate it's getting stronger. In the trailer for A Star to Guide Us, we hear a lot of "Aurene" said by many characters, like she was opening to somebody other than the Commander.

    Maybe now the same thing happens to her, as happened to Glint. Aurene can show the assembled the visions, but her real connection with the others, started to stir in her mind after this cinematic, because this cinematic showed all the characters that she knows- there is Rytlock, Caithe, Taimi etc- everyone that loves her, and she sees them die with her.

    They wanted to secretly lead us to that conclusion just at the beginning of the episode, when Aurene didn't listen to Taimi, also she didn't leave the summit with her, because she didn't feel the connection to Taimi. She listened after she heard clearly that the commander, we, talk to her. Then she left the summit with Taimi.

    So during and after the vision I think something new happened to Aurene, something she couldn't understand - the new voices in her head.

    I really hope we will get to become Aurene at some point to better understand what she feels (something like in Season 2). We have this bond with her, but it all looks like we don't really know her. She flies away from us when she can't deal with her problems, instead of just hug to us and show what she suffers. She is so closed in her mind, that it was so shocking to her, that suddenly new voices appeared in her head- so many people that believe she is the last hope.

    I can't wait for the Season 4's finale.

  • Jimbru.6014Jimbru.6014 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 1, 2018

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    Personally speaking, even the most egotistical and narcissistic people I've met have never claimed to be the very planet we live on.

    Canach and Caithe both say outright in the story, "Mordremoth IS the jungle." While the jungle may not have literally been his body, Mordy was the Elder Dragon of the plant realm. As such, the greatest jungle on Tyria was naturally where his power was strongest , and the jungle acted as a magical extension or manifestation of him, if not a literal physical one.

    Semi-joking comment aside, I think that mentality is coming from the fact that humans are the only sapient species we actually know. So naturally, to some degree, anything else that is sapient and communicative will feel at least partially human, because the core defining trait that separates humans from "everything else we know" is that we're sapient and capable of communication.

    But taking it in the whole scope of the game, Mordremoth acts as different to us as the charr or sylvari do. There are traces of humanity in there, but this is largely because it 1) has a personality and 2) there is a human writing the personality.

    Yep. Even the most "alien" aliens in fiction come out at least slightly having recognizable human qualities, because our own human perspective is all we know. It's just a natural consequence of things.

  • @Jimbru.6014 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    Personally speaking, even the most egotistical and narcissistic people I've met have never claimed to be the very planet we live on.

    Canach and Caithe both say outright in the story, "Mordremoth IS the jungle." While the jungle may not have literally been his body, Mordy was the Elder Dragon of the plant realm. As such, the greatest jungle on Tyria was naturally where his power was strongest , and the jungle acted as a magical extension or manifestation of him, if not a literal physical one.

    Caithe never says that, it's Trahearne. But this is a bit of a misnomer (or metaphor if you will) done for simplicity. Mordremoth is not the Maguuma Jungle. His body is the Mouth of Mordremoth; but his domain of mind allowed him to have a one-mind-many-body form of hive mind (whereas other ED are "many minds linked together" hive minds) acorss his corruption, which had at the point of HoT spread across the jungle. It wasn't that he was the jungle, but that his bodies had spread across and beneath the jungle.

    See official comment about this.

    This, however, doesn't change the fact that he was not the world itself (the Maguuma is a miniscule part of the world after all) nor that no human would ever make such a claim.

  • Jimbru.6014Jimbru.6014 Member ✭✭✭

    My apologies for getting Caithe and Trahearne confused on the quote. I knew for sure it came from at least two Sylvari and Canach was one of them.

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