LFG Abuse — Guild Wars 2 Forums

LFG Abuse

Mighty Thor.8954Mighty Thor.8954 Member ✭✭
edited November 27, 2018 in Fractals, Dungeons, and Raids

Hello.

I've had a couple of situations occur to me in Fractals several times now.
First one - A group with 4 players is looking for a 5th, with a lfg post titled "T4 Dailies". We do one fractal, then they say "Sorry, we already did the other dailies", and leave, leaving me stuck with trying to find a new group and probably having to repeat the same fractal on a new group.
Second one - CM+T4 group. I join, we do the 1st two bosses, then they say "Sorry, a member from our guild/static just came online. Mind leaving for him to join?" and procede to kick me.

So, my question is. What is ANet's stance on this?
I've had this happen to me several times, I always report this as LFG abuse, but the same people keep popping up on the LFG.
Is this fine?
Will nothing happen to me if I also start treating other players like GW henchman, recruiting and kicking as I please?

Comments

  • @Mighty Thor.8954 said:
    Hello.

    I've had a couple of situations occur to me in Fractals several times now.
    First one - A group with 4 players is looking for a 5th, with a lfg post titled "T4 Dailies". We do one fractal, then they say "Sorry, we already did the other dailies", and leave, leaving me stuck with trying to find a new group and probably having to repeat the same fractal on a new group.

    That's not "LFG Abuse". There are several reasons it might happen:

    • White Lie: On the rare occasion my static has a player who isn't pulling their weight (or runs off on their own or fails mechanics, etc), we tend not to /kick. We'll carry them through to boss loot and say, "sorry, we have someone else coming in". If someone really asked, I'd tell them what we experienced, but I find it's counterproductive to try to offer unsolicited feedback.
    • Change Mind: Sometimes you get through a daily and you realize you don't want to continue. It's easier to say, "we already did that" than continue.
    • Honest Mistake & its cousin Laziness: out of habit, people will just say T4 rather than name the fractal.

    Incidentally, we experience the opposite, too: we post clearly for T4 + Recs and we get people who join for just one fractal or leave after T4. (And to be fair, sometimes those people change their mind in the middle and I'm sure sometimes they didn't like how the run went and don't want to hang with us another 30 minutes.)

    Second one - CM+T4 group. I join, we do the 1st two bosses, then they say "Sorry, a member from our guild/static just came online. Mind leaving for him to join?" and procede to kick me.

    That's not any sort of abuse either. The same reasons above apply, plus, if it's actually true, are you saying that people shouldn't be allowed to reconfigure their party to include their friends or guildies? Are you suggesting that a group must absolutely stick to the letter of the LFG for however long it takes to finish?

    So, my question is. What is ANet's stance on this?
    I've had this happen to me several times, I always report this as LFG abuse, but the same people keep popping up on the LFG.

    I mean, you can keep reporting it. I can't imagine that ANet is going to act on it.
    And you might have trouble when it comes time to report an actual abuse, such as someone kicking you in the middle of the final boss fight (or right before).

    Will nothing happen to me if I also start treating other players like GW henchman, recruiting and kicking as I please?

    They aren't "recruiting and kicking as they please." They are treating the party like a pick-up group: you form, you do stuff, you adjust (or not) as desired.

    tl;dr circumstances change and parties adjust; it's not LFG abuse to reform in between fractals.

    "With great power comes not-so-great utility bills."

  • Mighty Thor.8954Mighty Thor.8954 Member ✭✭
    edited November 27, 2018

    "Second one - CM+T4 group. I join, we do the 1st two bosses, then they say "Sorry, a member from our guild/static just came online. Mind leaving for him to join?" and procede to kick me."

    "tl;dr circumstances change and parties adjust; it's not LFG abuse to reform in between fractals."

    I'm mentioning doing the first two bosses of 100cm then being kicked so they can have a guildie join for Arkk

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

    @Mighty Thor.8954 said:

    Second one - CM+T4 group. I join, we do the 1st two bosses, then they say "Sorry, a member from our guild/static just came online. Mind leaving for him to join?" and procede to kick me.

    That's not any sort of abuse either. The same reasons above apply, plus, if it's actually true, are you saying that people shouldn't be allowed to reconfigure their party to include their friends or guildies? Are you suggesting that a group must absolutely stick to the letter of the LFG for however long it takes to finish?

    I would call it abuse if you kick a player for someone else mid fractal. Having a friend is ok but not just for the endboss. That should be a big no go.

  • Talindra.4958Talindra.4958 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I'd say.. move on 🤣🤣
    They at least say sorry to you.
    Just move on.. you will be happier

    Death is Energy [DIE] in EU
    Envoy's Herald, CoZ, VitV, DD, SS, The Eternal, LNHB, Champion Magus, Champion Phantom, Wondrous Achiever etc.

  • Henry.5713Henry.5713 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 27, 2018

    It goes both ways really. Live and let live and just move on, if you ask me.
    Nobody would think to punish you either for "having" to leave early even if the group was looking for someone for a full set of Fractals. They might then have to possibly repeat everything to be able to find a decent pug, or more like, will lie about doing a full set of levels which actually causes one of the situations you mentioned. Or simply said, they won't be honest with you since their previous pug wasn't honest with them.

    Nothing is particularly hard if you divide it into small jobs. Henry Ford

  • Deepcuts.9740Deepcuts.9740 Member ✭✭✭

    Seen this behavior on multiple occasions. Was on the receiving side multiple occasions also.
    You cannot adjust people behavior in a mmo. Learn to live with it.
    If they do not have the proper education on how to treat a fellow human, no amount of Anet's involvement will fix it.

  • "LFG abuse" is when you misuse the LFG system for something else than looking for other players to play with.
    Example: Guild advertisments, buy/sell advertisements

    If you continue to report people for "LFG abuse" while they actually are looking for people for a party, you may get into trouble yourself sooner or later.
    Also, the LFG system is slightly complicated and sometimes the person who initially wrote the entry is not even in the group any longer when you join it. So when the person who wrote "T4 all dailies" suddenly has to leave after 1 or 2 fractals (leaving his team at only 4 players), someone might just relist the group to fill the empty spot without editing what the message says.

    YouTube “L2villagejester”.
    People using belittling wording like whining/qqing" are not taken seriously by me
    Same for people posting only to tell others not to post (“deal with it”-posts)

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Mighty Thor.8954 said:
    Hello.

    I've had a couple of situations occur to me in Fractals several times now.
    First one - A group with 4 players is looking for a 5th, with a lfg post titled "T4 Dailies". We do one fractal, then they say "Sorry, we already did the other dailies", and leave, leaving me stuck with trying to find a new group and probably having to repeat the same fractal on a new group.

    This one is easy explainable: It was the original lfg, someone left after two fractals and one member of the group put the search back into the lfg unconcerned. Before he/the group realizes to change it someone is joining (in this case you). I encountered this a lot, in my own groups or when I joined some. Most often the group already started the fractal and the players are fighting so there's no real possibility to enlighten the new one asap.

  • Mighty Thor.8954Mighty Thor.8954 Member ✭✭
    edited November 27, 2018

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @Mighty Thor.8954 said:
    Hello.

    I've had a couple of situations occur to me in Fractals several times now.
    First one - A group with 4 players is looking for a 5th, with a lfg post titled "T4 Dailies". We do one fractal, then they say "Sorry, we already did the other dailies", and leave, leaving me stuck with trying to find a new group and probably having to repeat the same fractal on a new group.

    This one is easy explainable: It was the original lfg, someone left after two fractals and one member of the group put the search back into the lfg unconcerned. Before he/the group realizes to change it someone is joining (in this case you). I encountered this a lot, in my own groups or when I joined some. Most often the group already started the fractal and the players are fighting so there's no real possibility to enlighten the new one asap.

    A fractal takes like10 mins on a random pug. There are no fractals with the end boss right at the beginning of them except Mai Trin, and Solid Ocean if you count that.
    If you cant take 2 secs to say "hey, we did the rest of the dailies already", for me that's trying to fool the other person.

    So, lying and/or kicking other players mid-fractals is fine, I can start doing it and not be concerned about any punishment.
    Thanks for the answers

  • Illconceived Was Na.9781Illconceived Was Na.9781 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 27, 2018

    @Mighty Thor.8954 said:
    So, lying and/or kicking other players mid-fractals is fine,

    Kicking players mid-fractals is not fine.
    And none of us (including you) have any idea of whether players lied, or if they mis-posted, of if circumstances changed.

    I can start doing it and not be concerned about any punishment.

    People have been suspended for /kicking to let friends leech off someone else's effort. (It's not necessarily easy to demonstrate a pattern, so it's probably rare.)
    But even if it wasn't, do you really need anyone to explain why doing the wrong thing is wrong, regardless of what ANet does?

    Do unto others as ye would have others do for your sister or grandma.


    To avoid misunderstanding, here's a biased summary of the discussion:

    • It's not LFG abuse to change one's mind after people have joined.
    • It's wrong for people to kick before/during final boss. (Some reasonable exceptions apply, of course, including someone DC'd for 5+ minutes.) It isn't LFG abuse unless the kick was intended from the start (hard to prove) and it might or might not be deserving of sanction by ANet (in some cases, it's just a skritty thing to do, not necessarily a ToS violation).
    • For the type of thing discussed in this thread, it's better to create a support ticket (so details can be added) than to use the in-game /report function.
    • Don't report just due to frustration or anger; it's a waste of ANet's time and might make it difficult for them to notice when they need to take action.

    "With great power comes not-so-great utility bills."

  • polvere.2805polvere.2805 Member ✭✭✭

    They are really rude people. Just block them so you won't see them again. Sadly this is the only thing that you can really do.
    Sadly in fractals is really easy to kick people mid fractal, while for example in raids this is not a problem: you can't kick mid boss fight. At worse you get kicked after killing the boss, but no big deal there are always parties that look people for single bosses.

    The annoying thing is that Anet takes actions against shaming those people. In older mmos if you were for example a ninja looter basically every guild would be spreading the word that -insert guy name- is a ninja looter, giving him a harder time to find groups. Usually bad behaviour that clearly can't be blocked by anet sould be taken care by the community: he is a rude player, nobody would want to play with him and everybody should know, so if you want to find people to play with you must have a decent reputation. Instead Anet decides to protect those people....

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Mighty Thor.8954 said:

    A fractal takes like10 mins on a random pug. There are no fractals with the end boss right at the beginning of them except Mai Trin, and Solid Ocean if you count that.
    If you cant take 2 secs to say "hey, we did the rest of the dailies already", for me that's trying to fool the other person.

    This is more of an allegation by yourself. It's rather probable that players are just too lazy to adapt the lfg. I won't imply that groups do that on purpose. There is no reason to do that since you easily get players for single fractals as well without exceptions!
    If this happens to me (and you should act the same) I leave afterwards and look for the rest of the dailies. At prime time there are several single runs and if I don't find one I open up my own lfg and enough players are joining. Since I'm not a meta elitist and have successfully completed a lot of fractals in off-meta comps and in a very fast time over the years I couldn't care less about the composition if it's for a single fractal and usually you can see it in the first couple of seconds if people can carry their weight or not which will spare you time if you leave immediately and look for the next one.

    So, lying and/or kicking other players mid-fractals is fine, I can start doing it and not be concerned about any punishment.
    Thanks for the answers

    Kicking before the final boss is a no-go. It happens but is very rare. It's ok to report that but even here we know since years that players who don't do this on a regular basis are getting punished. One single report isn't enough in this case. Actually, it's more common to boot a player after a fractal which is completely fine because the player doesn't lose anything.

    Overall I think you are way too sensitive plus: Don't take things too serious. You won't get satisfaction and it's only wasted time to be upset about such indifferent topics.

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Mighty Thor.8954 said:

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @Mighty Thor.8954 said:
    Hello.

    I've had a couple of situations occur to me in Fractals several times now.
    First one - A group with 4 players is looking for a 5th, with a lfg post titled "T4 Dailies". We do one fractal, then they say "Sorry, we already did the other dailies", and leave, leaving me stuck with trying to find a new group and probably having to repeat the same fractal on a new group.

    This one is easy explainable: It was the original lfg, someone left after two fractals and one member of the group put the search back into the lfg unconcerned. Before he/the group realizes to change it someone is joining (in this case you). I encountered this a lot, in my own groups or when I joined some. Most often the group already started the fractal and the players are fighting so there's no real possibility to enlighten the new one asap.

    A fractal takes like10 mins on a random pug. There are no fractals with the end boss right at the beginning of them except Mai Trin, and Solid Ocean if you count that.
    If you cant take 2 secs to say "hey, we did the rest of the dailies already", for me that's trying to fool the other person.

    So, lying and/or kicking other players mid-fractals is fine, I can start doing it and not be concerned about any punishment.
    Thanks for the answers

    And why is it only on them to tell you, when I join a fractal group thats already in a fractal I ask
    -first fractal?
    I get a 3 or 2 letter word back yes/no

  • Mighty Thor.8954Mighty Thor.8954 Member ✭✭
    edited November 28, 2018

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @Mighty Thor.8954 said:

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @Mighty Thor.8954 said:
    Hello.

    I've had a couple of situations occur to me in Fractals several times now.
    First one - A group with 4 players is looking for a 5th, with a lfg post titled "T4 Dailies". We do one fractal, then they say "Sorry, we already did the other dailies", and leave, leaving me stuck with trying to find a new group and probably having to repeat the same fractal on a new group.

    This one is easy explainable: It was the original lfg, someone left after two fractals and one member of the group put the search back into the lfg unconcerned. Before he/the group realizes to change it someone is joining (in this case you). I encountered this a lot, in my own groups or when I joined some. Most often the group already started the fractal and the players are fighting so there's no real possibility to enlighten the new one asap.

    A fractal takes like10 mins on a random pug. There are no fractals with the end boss right at the beginning of them except Mai Trin, and Solid Ocean if you count that.
    If you cant take 2 secs to say "hey, we did the rest of the dailies already", for me that's trying to fool the other person.

    So, lying and/or kicking other players mid-fractals is fine, I can start doing it and not be concerned about any punishment.
    Thanks for the answers

    And why is it only on them to tell you, when I join a fractal group thats already in a fractal I ask
    -first fractal?
    I get a 3 or 2 letter word back yes/no

    Hum, I'm not talking about when people are in the middle of a fractal, it's about when they say T4 dailies on LFG, do the first one, then say "we already did the rest" and leave.

    I've had people say they didn't change the message because when they searched for only one fractal no one joined, so they changed back to T4 dailies.

  • There will always be "risk" (can't foresee, usually :tongue:) with PuGs.

    I've had people say they didn't change the message because when they searched for only one fractal no one joined, so they changed back to T4 dailies.

    Just an example or pick any scenario mentioned above. Be it a reason or an excuse, the intention is clear.

    LFG is just a tool. Doing what it's supposed to do, nothing more and nothing less. We can only hope players to be prudent with it.
    (Eg. Edit/updating LFG @last boss, question if its a fresh run, inform the party if you're new etc.)

  • How about people who keep joinong your 9/10 raid group on lfg and instantly leave so you will be delisted from lfg? When i was doing semi guild runs our leader would occasionaly kick bad players or just kick them because they entered with insufficient kp. Some people turn so salty they keep reentering your group, grief/flame and leave. Then after listing on lfg several times we would become suppressed so we could t even put up lfg anymore

  • For the first issue, its not against the rules to change intention of the lfg in the middle. It does make the players kitten though, since they lied intentionally. Id just block and move on.

    For the second issue it is against the rules to kick a player midway to bring someone else. I'd definitely report them. If you are annoyed enough you can also submit a ticket with further proof like chat screenshots.

    @Mister Asdasd.6194 said:
    How about people who keep joinong your 9/10 raid group on lfg and instantly leave so you will be delisted from lfg? When i was doing semi guild runs our leader would occasionaly kick bad players or just kick them because they entered with insufficient kp. Some people turn so salty they keep reentering your group, grief/flame and leave. Then after listing on lfg several times we would become suppressed so we could t even put up lfg anymore

    It would probably fall under harassment which is reportable. You can ask one of your guildies to leave, so there are 2 free spots. The bad player will join and you can ignore him until you get your final pug, then kick and re invite your guildie.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @zombyturtle.5980 said:
    It would probably fall under harassment which is reportable.

    The problem with reports is that they work -after- the damage is done. I think if someone is blocked by the LFG creator, they shouldn't be allowed to join their group, that would fix the issue.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Mister Asdasd.6194 said:
    How about people who keep joinong your 9/10 raid group on lfg and instantly leave so you will be delisted from lfg? When i was doing semi guild runs our leader would occasionaly kick bad players or just kick them because they entered with insufficient kp. Some people turn so salty they keep reentering your group, grief/flame and leave. Then after listing on lfg several times we would become suppressed so we could t even put up lfg anymore

    Needs to be a squad option in panel where a commander can type in the name of a player to ban them from joining. This way, if they tried to join through LFG, it wouldn't let them and the LFG wouldn't get ruined.

    The 10 Commandments Of Conquest
    Abide by the commandments or God shalt deliver unto thee a packet of salt as often as thou did break them
    -> https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/38081/the-10-commandments-of-conquest#1

  • polvere.2805polvere.2805 Member ✭✭✭

    @Mister Asdasd.6194 said:
    How about people who keep joinong your 9/10 raid group on lfg and instantly leave so you will be delisted from lfg? When i was doing semi guild runs our leader would occasionaly kick bad players or just kick them because they entered with insufficient kp. Some people turn so salty they keep reentering your group, grief/flame and leave. Then after listing on lfg several times we would become suppressed so we could t even put up lfg anymore

    Can't your squad leader just block him ? He won't be able to see his lfg anymore

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @polvere.2805 said:

    @Mister Asdasd.6194 said:
    How about people who keep joinong your 9/10 raid group on lfg and instantly leave so you will be delisted from lfg? When i was doing semi guild runs our leader would occasionaly kick bad players or just kick them because they entered with insufficient kp. Some people turn so salty they keep reentering your group, grief/flame and leave. Then after listing on lfg several times we would become suppressed so we could t even put up lfg anymore

    Can't your squad leader just block him ? He won't be able to see his lfg anymore

    Yes he will be able to see the lfg it dont work like that, commander just wont be able to see his typing in whisper, say , party or squad chat tho.

  • Turkeyspit.3965Turkeyspit.3965 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Not abuse by any stretch, and I'd even hesitate to call that behaviour unwanted. There is no rule that if you join a group at reset that you must remain for all T4s and/or all Recs / CMs.

    Personally, I would never do that without announcing it first, as I know it can be a pain to have to replace a player after 2 of the dailies are done, but that's a personal choice based on personal values, which I have no right to impose on anyone else.

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