buff necro is back!

Well for me it is anyway, and i am actually really happy about it

With this weeks update and rune of the pact changed to give out buffs every 30 seconds in combat means that as a plague doctors support necro i can put out more might and put out fury and even swiftness now.

now i dont feel useless in fractals :)

you may not feel useless but everyone else will be silently thinking that you are and that your spot would be better used if you were a Rev tis the sad truth because of Anets brainless balance team

Don't understand why a lot of people run full plaguedoctors. The stats are so bad distributed...

As a support necro you want:HealpowerMaybe a little bit of vitalityCondition damage to do DPS

What you don't want: concentration

Why? When I last tested it, scourge wasn't able to keep 25stacks might on itself even with 80% boondurationThe average mightstacks was 15-17.And that was before the abrasive grit change.Well it was a buff in might duration, but you have to be much more on point with barrier application than before.

But back to plaguedoctors.Mainstats:-vita-condition damage

Minor:-healpower-concentration

But you don't want max vita. You want to max healpower and condition damage. So you are wasting more important stats in favour of vita.And about concentration I already talked about

Nimon: what you're describing is why my support scourge runs full Marshal with Flock runes and Water/Transference sigils.

For comparison, a power DPS renegade can maintain 25 Might and high uptime Alacrity on a party just by using their Citadel Orders on cooldown. Plus Assassin's Presence and All For One for good measure. And that's not even a support build, let alone meta. Compared to that, much less to actual boon builds, the boons a scourge provides are so relatively minor that it's wasted potential to invest in them.

Better to focus on healing power and a modicum of offense, especially since I mostly run open world and small group content. Barriers, life steals, a steady flow of splash heals and regen (thanks to Marks of Blood from staff and Mark of Evasion), and enough DPS to solo open world when I'm not supporting bigger things. It works for me...

@Jimbru.6014 said:Nimon: what you're describing is why my support scourge runs full Marshal with Flock runes and Water/Transference sigils.

For comparison, a power DPS renegade can maintain 25 Might and high uptime Alacrity on a party just by using their Citadel Orders on cooldown. Plus Assassin's Presence and All For One for good measure. And that's not even a support build, let alone meta. Compared to that, much less to actual boon builds, the boons a scourge provides are so relatively minor that it's wasted potential to invest in them.

Better to focus on healing power and a modicum of offense, especially since I mostly run open world and small group content. Barriers, life steals, a steady flow of splash heals and regen (thanks to Marks of Blood from staff and Mark of Evasion), and enough DPS to solo open world when I'm not supporting bigger things. It works for me...

Exactly my thoughts.

I really don't get why people run plaguedoctors.

Either go for full healpower with magi-gear.Or run marshals for better offensive options.

The way I see it, the most important of our boons is Stability from Trail of Anguish, not Might.

Most classes can give themselves Might to some degree, and other classes can give group Might much more efficiently than necros. To be frank, our Might giving basically just helps to cover gaps in others' rotations.

Conversely, group Stability is golden for a lot of situations, and scourges are one of the relatively few sources for that. But that one ability isn't worth a large investment in boon duration. The classes which are best off investing in boon duration are those which can give multiple boons efficiently, and necros ain't that.

@Nimon.7840 said:

@Jimbru.6014 said:Nimon: what you're describing is why my support scourge runs full Marshal with Flock runes and Water/Transference sigils.

For comparison, a power DPS renegade can maintain 25 Might and high uptime Alacrity on a party just by using their Citadel Orders on cooldown. Plus Assassin's Presence and All For One for good measure. And that's not even a support build, let alone meta. Compared to that, much less to actual boon builds, the boons a scourge provides are so relatively minor that it's wasted potential to invest in them.

Better to focus on healing power and a modicum of offense, especially since I mostly run open world and small group content. Barriers, life steals, a steady flow of splash heals and regen (thanks to Marks of Blood from staff and Mark of Evasion), and enough DPS to solo open world when I'm not supporting bigger things. It works for me...

I consider Shaman's better than Magi's (precision but no extra power or condi) or Plaguedoctor's (concentration only works on regen). Bleed dps is not too bad while the vitality helps shroud bursts and tanking with dagger for LF, if necessary. Shaman's has no underused attributes on a condi build. I am currently testing a full set of Shaman's with Runes of Scavenging but will swap to Krait, soon.

Zealot's a viable alternate to Marshal's on power builds, too. Currently looking over rune options for power-Reaper and power-Scourge.

@Anchoku.8142 said:

@Nimon.7840 said:

@Jimbru.6014 said:Nimon: what you're describing is why my support scourge runs full Marshal with Flock runes and Water/Transference sigils.

For comparison, a power DPS renegade can maintain 25 Might and high uptime Alacrity on a party just by using their Citadel Orders on cooldown. Plus Assassin's Presence and All For One for good measure. And that's not even a support build, let alone meta. Compared to that, much less to actual boon builds, the boons a scourge provides are so relatively minor that it's wasted potential to invest in them.

Better to focus on healing power and a modicum of offense, especially since I mostly run open world and small group content. Barriers, life steals, a steady flow of splash heals and regen (thanks to Marks of Blood from staff and Mark of Evasion), and enough DPS to solo open world when I'm not supporting bigger things. It works for me...

Where do you get regeneration from outside of dodge?Playing with staff? Don't think that's worth it.

I tried again yesterday. Full marshals with mercy rune, transference and water sigil.

Resulted in 8,4-8,9k DPS while being able to maintain the support.Spamming f5,f4,f3I could even afford to use f2.

I had exactly 0 vitality. Why is everyone using that much vitality on scourge?If you really can play it, you don't need that extra vitality.

Well of blood, well of power, dessicate, golem.Dagger/torch + dagger/horn

Bloodmagic top,bottom,bottomSoulreaping top,mid, mid (8.9k DPS)/bot (8.4k DPS)Scourge top,top,top

That was my setup.

Someone might be able to reach more DPS. Maybe use sharpening stone instead of outgoing healing oil. Don't know if it's worth it (rice balls as food)

Compared to Marshal, Zealot gives up some healing and all the condi damage to have more Power and Precision. OK for more Power oriented offense, less so for general healing and support. Shaman's has massive Vitality, but gives up offense almost entirely except condi, with the same healing as Zealot. If you really need that much Vitality, you're doing something wrong.

My setup: full ascended Marshal gear. Flock runes + Water and Transference sigils = lotsa splash heals. Dagger/torch + staff. I will eventually be making a warhorn to carry as an alternative, but right now I find the range and extra AOE utility of the staff to be useful, particularly in big events like world boss fights.

Blood: 1, 3, 3.Soul Reaping: 2, 2, 2.Scourge: 3, 3, 3.

Sometimes when I'm soloing I'll shuffle those around a bit to some more aggressive traits. But I generally find I can handle most things in the open world just fine.

support necro is non existent and anyone who believes otherwise is delusional.

@Nimon.7840 said:Don't understand why a lot of people run full plaguedoctors. The stats are so bad distributed...

As a support necro you want:HealpowerMaybe a little bit of vitalityCondition damage to do DPS

What you don't want: concentration

Why? When I last tested it, scourge wasn't able to keep 25stacks might on itself even with 80% boondurationThe average mightstacks was 15-17.And that was before the abrasive grit change.Well it was a buff in might duration, but you have to be much more on point with barrier application than before.

But back to plaguedoctors.Mainstats:-vita-condition damage

Minor:-healpower-concentration

But you don't want max vita. You want to max healpower and condition damage. So you are wasting more important stats in favour of vita.And about concentration I already talked about

My theory is that folks like how cool the name is as I've seen lots of people try to get it to work even though there are better stat combos. But that's just my own silly theory.

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:support necro is non existent and anyone who believes otherwise is delusional.

Scourge.

@Dace.8173 said:Scourge.

scourge what? a core guard with healing symbols would do a better job.

Not a better job at barriers. :)

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@Dace.8173 said:Scourge.

Irrelevant. Scourge can, and often does, do support. The fact that Core Guardian can do a better job with healing symbols doesn't negate that. More than one profession can do something and there are varying levels to that. It isn't like this is the Thunderdome.

Also, since Scourge isn't healing support the fact that Core Guardian does a better job with healing symbols is rendered moot. I would hope that something set up to do healing support is better than something that isn't.

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:scourge what? a core guard with healing symbols would do a better job.

Well, scourge support up to 10 allies. Scourge can also support them from afar. If anything, Core necro healing support is already as good as core guardian healing support. The real difference only lie in the auxiliary support (boons and conditions). Scourge bring barrier on the table which can be seen as a different kind of aegis with it's pro and cons. So in a contest of support, scourge have definitely the edge over the core guardian in encounter with moderate instant incoming damage and low CC while the guardian have the edge against high instant damage and high CC. Scourge is designed to counter sustain damage while guardian is designed to counter burst. That's why they work well together since they each cover their end of the spectrum and thus compliment each other.

@Dace.8173 said:Irrelevant.It isn't like this is the Thunderdome.effectiveness is very relevant.hmm mad max reference you win this one.

@Dadnir.5038 said:Well, scourge support up to 10 allies.eh? I thought their barrier skills were 5 peeps.

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@Dace.8173 said:Irrelevant.It isn't like this is the Thunderdome.effectiveness is very relevant.

That wasn't his point. The fact is that Scourge is not diminished as a support because of someone doing it better. That is meta-think and it's relevant to only a subset of teaming scenarios; one could argue that subset is small, so it's not hard to hypothesize that not being the best support is irrelevant to the idea that Scourge can be an effective support build to the overall game. The irrelevance here wasn't a reference to effectiveness of Scourge as a support, it was to the comparison of support Scourge to other classes to indicate it's not.

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:Well, scourge support up to 10 allies.eh? I thought their barrier skills were 5 peeps.

5 around you and 5 around your shade when you got the sand savant -> 10

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:support necro is non existent and anyone who believes otherwise is delusional.

I mean I'd define WvW blood scourge as support and that's meta.

For reaper in PvE, I think that they should reduce CD of shroud skill 4 by 20% in and buff shroud and GS damage a bit.

For scourge, not sure. Ya barrier is cool, but scourge is not a support build by any means and you cannot build a support build with scourge in any form in any game mode.

@Obtena.7952 said:That wasn't his point. The fact is that Scourge is not diminished as a support because of someone doing it better. That is meta-think and it's relevant to only a subset of teaming scenarios; one could argue that subset is small, so it's not hard to hypothesize that not being the best support is irrelevant to the idea that Scourge can be an effective support build to the overall game. The irrelevance here wasn't a reference to effectiveness of Scourge as a support, it was to the comparison of support Scourge to other classes to indicate it's not.

so is support thief a thing? no cuz its not effective.

@Lahmia.2193 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:support necro is non existent and anyone who believes otherwise is delusional.

well sure but the context here is fractals.

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:That wasn't his point. The fact is that Scourge is not diminished as a support because of someone doing it better. That is meta-think and it's relevant to only a subset of teaming scenarios; one could argue that subset is small, so it's not hard to hypothesize that not being the best support is irrelevant to the idea that Scourge can be an effective support build to the overall game. The irrelevance here wasn't a reference to effectiveness of Scourge as a support, it was to the comparison of support Scourge to other classes to indicate it's not.

Effective is not black and white. Just because Thief Support is not effective doesn't mean Scourge Support isn't either. They are not correlated. Not being the best is not the same as not effective. Funny though ... you conclude theif support is not effective because it's not a thing people do ... but people DO use Scourge support ... yet you still concluded Scourge support isn't a thing either. What a contrived argument you have, made with 'selective' logic.

Ignoring the useful aspects of the class doesn't make your argument to get buffs for it stronger. In fact, it diminishes any discussion to be had on the topic.

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:That wasn't his point. The fact is that Scourge is not diminished as a support because of someone doing it better. That is meta-think and it's relevant to only a subset of teaming scenarios; one could argue that subset is small, so it's not hard to hypothesize that not being the best support is irrelevant to the idea that Scourge can be an effective support build to the overall game. The irrelevance here wasn't a reference to effectiveness of Scourge as a support, it was to the comparison of support Scourge to other classes to indicate it's not.

its not black and white but there is a certain threshold that must be met for something to be viable, and if im wrong here and somehow support scourge is viable in a place like fractals then that's fine too. the correlation here is effectiveness and viability. a team can run all clerics in a dungeon, beat it, and call themselves "not great but viable", while technically correct it would be pretty meaningless in the grand scheme of things (unless you consider looking at things through a microscope at the expense of others good practice).

All true, so when you make comments that indicate other classes do it better, what are you saying about the absolute viability of a Scourge Support build? The answer is nothing, because comparisons to other classes are relative.

If I got 3 classes an one does 100%, the next 99% and the last 98%, is the last 2 classes not viable? That makes no sense. That's what you do when you make relative comparisons between classes to conclude effectiveness. Even worse, it's not even that simple; classes are so different in how they play, tools, etc ... that relative comparisons for any individual element between them are just nonsense. If a group takes a Scourge Support and that works for them, that's all that matters.

@"otto.5684" said:For scourge, not sure. Ya barrier is cool, but scourge is not a support build by any means and you cannot build a support build with scourge in any form in any game mode.

Define "support"! Because like Lahmia said, Blood scourge is already a "support" in WvW, the scourge rez bot used in PvE raid is by definition a "support", even in sPvP the scourge of the FB/scourge duo can be perceived as a "support".

The scourge is not a "support" in the same way that other professions support, the necromancer is just not designed to support in conventional way. However, all it's soft conditions, it's barrier, the few boons, the boon corruption, the condition manipulation and the heal he can dish out are legit "support". The fact that most of this support is especially effective in PvP while it's meh in PvE, don't change it's supportive nature.

For reaper in PvE, I think that they should reduce CD of shroud skill 4 by 20% in and buff shroud and GS damage a bit.

I don't think pushing thing further onto RS4 and GS would be a wise choice.

Be it in PvE or any other gamemode, a good move would be to shorten Dagger auto chain by reducing some after casts (mostly the after cast on the 3rd attack of the chain) and make vital persistance CD reduction affect the shroud CD. (God how greedy can I be?)

As for PvE only move:

• shaving well of suffering CD by 5-10 seconds would be a good start.
• Increasing BiP base damage/coefficient so that it deal decent damage could be a wise choice. At least make it deal as much damage as a necrotic stab.
• Reducing chilling nova ICD in PvE to 4 second should also be a decent move, buffing both condi and power builds in PvE.
• Minions active skills could deal damage scaling on the necromancer's stats. (6 years and it's still not a thing...)
• Even locust swarm base damages could easily be doubled.

Except for the minion's thing, these are only numbers change. I mean, is asking for core to be a bit more PvE friendly, really asking for to much? These changes would push all dps builds closer to the average profession's numbers and bring a bit more build diversity.