The time has come to make Fast Hands and Warrior's Sprint baseline

Warrior Runes now do the job of arguably what was the most crucial minor trait on the Warrior. This allows other players to open up the weapon swaps, but also makes warriors have a trait that feels redundant. Thus, competitively, with all the warrior telegraphs, Warrior feels weak in some regards. Take the opportunity to make Fast hands baseline and remake it to where it's more damage or versatility on weapon swap through some other means.

Also, GS- HB-> never gets the attention it deserves not even when fully spec'd for it. IOW, it doesn't do enough damage. I know people will say the damage is fine but competitively it fails at doing any damage to a thinking target. And everyone has come up against this skill before (exaggerated but most people who know the game). Increase by 2-5% at least.

Finally the biggest change that must get attention at some time. Warrior's Sprint is now leaning towards having swiftness and removing slowing conditions instead of having that perma 25% movement increase. So the question becomes, will it become baseline? Or will Anet leave the demanded trait to still be just that- demanded? Anet is taking the right steps towards what looks like a baseline. So here's my suggestion- Make Warrior's Sprint give lot's more swiftness and remove chill, immobilized , and crippled, at the expense of that 25% movement increase.

ANET SINCERELY HEAR ME OUT- I know it's tempting to not buff warrior baseline and open him up to the other traits, as it would call into question every other class that may need equal parts balancing. HOWEVER, warrior has been pigeon-held for too long and it's time to give the class the freedom it deserves. Thusly, the other classes deserve their buffs or balance updates respectively. In any case, do not ignore this issue any more pllleeeeeeeeeeeeease. It's been years of warrior being isolated from certain traits in comp. Free us from defense, discipline, and our only selective trait. We're being squeezed more and more.

@gmmg.9210 said:Free us from defense, discipline, and our only selective trait.

Amen to that brother.

Warrior needs to have baseline traits that are unique to the profession.

• Base line 5 second weapon swap.
• Warrior sprint

@gmmg.9210 said:Warrior Runes now do the job of arguably what was the most crucial minor trait on the Warrior. This allows other players to open up the weapon swaps, but also makes warriors have a trait that feels redundant. Thus, competitively, with all the warrior telegraphs, Warrior feels weak in some regards. Take the opportunity to make Fast hands baseline and remake it to where it's more damage or versatility on weapon swap through some other means.

I'm not sure I understand. Don't you have the same opportunity cost of running 6 warrior runes and not using the trait line?

While the trait line provides a vastly superior version of the 6 piece rune bonus.

What is the argument here to make this base line?

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@gmmg.9210 said:Warrior Runes now do the job of arguably what was the most crucial minor trait on the Warrior. This allows other players to open up the weapon swaps, but also makes warriors have a trait that feels redundant. Thus, competitively, with all the warrior telegraphs, Warrior feels weak in some regards. Take the opportunity to make Fast hands baseline and remake it to where it's more damage or versatility on weapon swap through some other means.

there is no argument, just another person wanting something for free.

Every class has a trait that increases their movement speed passively, warrior is the only one with a melee only requirement. If you want to change one thing, change that. Everything else is just whining.

@Blocki.4931 said:Every class has a trait that increases their movement speed passively, warrior is the only one with a melee only requirement. If you want to change one thing, change that. Everything else is just whining.

Eles don't neither, but swiftness uptime is not really an issue.

@MyPuppy.8970 said:

@Blocki.4931 said:Every class has a trait that increases their movement speed passively, warrior is the only one with a melee only requirement. If you want to change one thing, change that. Everything else is just whining.

This will never happen. It will be a major power creep for warrior, particularly for PvP where you will drop displine while maintaining all its important effects. In order for this to become reality it needs to be performed for all classes.

We already have enough power creep in the game. We need less not more.

@Blocki.4931 said:Every class has a trait that increases their movement speed passively, warrior is the only one with a melee only requirement. If you want to change one thing, change that. Everything else is just whining.

Necros don't have one and don't you mention that signet. Discipline is a top tier trait-line (for where warrior's sprint matters). Locust Signet is a mediocre skill. Guardian also doesn't have a trait for this (except in dragonhunter a very specialized traitline).

If you think everyone should get a free 25% movement speed (that doesnt stack) outside of combat I am with you tho

When the game first launched, the only profession in the game with a permanent movespeed increase was Thief with Signet of Shadows, which used to have a higher cooldown and a worse active. They gave most professions a build option for increased movespeed for QoL purposes when traveling the maps out of combat since burning skills was kind of lame.

Now everyone wants this effect, which was originally profession-specific, for free with zero build investment.

If that's not a testament to power creep, I don't know what is.

@DeceiverX.8361 said:When the game first launched, the only profession in the game with a permanent movespeed increase was Thief with Signet of Shadows, which used to have a higher cooldown and a worse active. They gave most professions a build option for increased movespeed for QoL purposes when traveling the maps out of combat since burning skills was kind of lame.

Now everyone wants this effect, which was originally profession-specific, for free with zero build investment.

If that's not a testament to power creep, I don't know what is.

Well outside of combat it's not a power increase, its a QoL increase. Running is boring, fighting is fun (or at least is supposed to), In combat most players have more or less permanent swiftness (except when attacked but then they have cripple/chill/immob anyway), so it wouldn't really change anything but prolly shouldn't be changed.

Warrior runes have been -20% since 2014. I'm not sure how they all of a sudden become an excuse to give warriors fast hands baseline.

Of all the professions, warrior doesn't really need any buffs.

Let's start with Ele on that front.

@gmmg.9210 said:competitively, with all the warrior telegraphs, Warrior feels weak in some regards.

No one can be this bad a sPvPer. It isn't possible.

@Aplethoraof.2643 said:Of all the professions, warrior doesn't really need any buffs.

Let's start with Ele on that front.

@gmmg.9210 said:competitively, with all the warrior telegraphs, Warrior feels weak in some regards.

You haven't been on the forums long.Cause yes....

Yes they can be..

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@"gmmg.9210" said:Warrior Runes now do the job of arguably what was the most crucial minor trait on the Warrior. This allows other players to open up the weapon swaps, but also makes warriors have a trait that feels redundant. Thus, competitively, with all the warrior telegraphs, Warrior feels weak in some regards. Take the opportunity to make Fast hands baseline and remake it to where it's more damage or versatility on weapon swap through some other means.

Do you pay or work hard to get changes/buffs? Or are you just hypocrite that is ok with buffs, fixes, changes, etc... for free, too?Do you want better/improved/balanced game for free or you want to pay/work hard for it?

On the topic, fast hands baseline would be HUGE QoL change for warrior allowing other builds to not suck so bad.Giving up Discipline traitline is actually more impactful, than you might think. Traits like Versatile Rage, Versatile Power, Brawler's Recovery, Warrior's Sprint, etcprovide a lot of useful utility and QoL stuff, especially for spellbreaker.So for not losing this special utility/QoL stuff, Discipline traitline would be still necessary.But when it comes to more support-ish non-Discipline builds, which include Tactics traitline f.e., Fast Hands would help a lot.

I guess it's just that some people don't want warrior to get good stuff because their class/spec is strong (or straight OP) and they know their class won't get any buffs because of that. Basically "No buffs for me? No buffs for you then, either!"And those people most likely think Full Counter is in good spot now that it deals almost no damage.

I am afraid due to this, Anet will not make Fast Hands baseline. Because people would DEMAND special buffs for their classes, principially.

@cryorion.9532 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@gmmg.9210 said:Warrior Runes now do the job of arguably what was the most crucial minor trait on the Warrior. This allows other players to open up the weapon swaps, but also makes warriors have a trait that feels redundant. Thus, competitively, with all the warrior telegraphs, Warrior feels weak in some regards. Take the opportunity to make Fast hands baseline and remake it to where it's more damage or versatility on weapon swap through some other means.

QoL =/= balance changes. Baseline fast hands is major power creep, I don't see any suggestions to balance this in any way. What do you intend to give up instead? Since you didn't give any suggestion how to counter balance this change, this demand is exactly what was mentioned: nonsensical demands with no balance in mind.

@cryorion.9532 said:Giving up Discipline traitline is actually more impactful, than you might think. Traits like Versatile Rage, Versatile Power, Brawler's Recovery, Warrior's Sprint, etcprovide a lot of useful utility and QoL stuff, especially for spellbreaker.So for not losing this special utility/QoL stuff, Discipline traitline would be still necessary.But when it comes to more support-ish non-Discipline builds, which include Tactics traitline f.e., Fast Hands would help a lot.

I guess it's just that some people don't want warrior to get good stuff because their class/spec is strong (or straight OP) and they know their class won't get any buffs because of that. Basically "No buffs for me? No buffs for you then, either!"

Warrior? You mean the class which was beyond broken on Spellbreaker with PoF that it took multiple nerfs to bring them in line, yet they still roam strong?

The only class which runs a core and both elite builds in the pve meta?

Come on, you can't be so naive that people would seriously consider you unbiased. At least try to hide your bias a little.

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@cryorion.9532 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@gmmg.9210 said:Warrior Runes now do the job of arguably what was the most crucial minor trait on the Warrior. This allows other players to open up the weapon swaps, but also makes warriors have a trait that feels redundant. Thus, competitively, with all the warrior telegraphs, Warrior feels weak in some regards. Take the opportunity to make Fast hands baseline and remake it to where it's more damage or versatility on weapon swap through some other means.

@cryorion.9532 said:Giving up Discipline traitline is actually more impactful, than you might think. Traits like Versatile Rage, Versatile Power, Brawler's Recovery, Warrior's Sprint, etcprovide a lot of useful utility and QoL stuff, especially for spellbreaker.So for not losing this special utility/QoL stuff, Discipline traitline would be still necessary.But when it comes to more support-ish non-Discipline builds, which include Tactics traitline f.e., Fast Hands would help a lot.

I guess it's just that some people don't want warrior to get good stuff because their class/spec is strong (or straight OP) and they know their class won't get any buffs because of that. Basically "No buffs for me? No buffs for you then, either!"

The issue is, that I am biased because I am warrior main :) And I am not trying to hide it. I think it is pretty obvious from my original post in this thread.The only reason I would love to have Fast Hands as baseline, is for being able to use 2nd weaponset faster with non-Discipline builds than without FH baseline. It is that simple.Now please explain to me the power creep part. Check Discipline traitline to see what you are giving up, which damage modifiers. So not using Discipline for power damage builds is actually DPS loss. The only "power creep" I can think of, is more tanky builds being able to swap weapons and adjust to combat situations faster.

@cryorion.9532 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@cryorion.9532 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@gmmg.9210 said:Warrior Runes now do the job of arguably what was the most crucial minor trait on the Warrior. This allows other players to open up the weapon swaps, but also makes warriors have a trait that feels redundant. Thus, competitively, with all the warrior telegraphs, Warrior feels weak in some regards. Take the opportunity to make Fast hands baseline and remake it to where it's more damage or versatility on weapon swap through some other means.

@cryorion.9532 said:Giving up Discipline traitline is actually more impactful, than you might think. Traits like Versatile Rage, Versatile Power, Brawler's Recovery, Warrior's Sprint, etcprovide a lot of useful utility and QoL stuff, especially for spellbreaker.So for not losing this special utility/QoL stuff, Discipline traitline would be still necessary.But when it comes to more support-ish non-Discipline builds, which include Tactics traitline f.e., Fast Hands would help a lot.

I guess it's just that some people don't want warrior to get good stuff because their class/spec is strong (or straight OP) and they know their class won't get any buffs because of that. Basically "No buffs for me? No buffs for you then, either!"

Bias and rational and objective balance suggestions do not go hand in hand.

@cryorion.9532 said:The only reason I would love to have Fast Hands as baseline, is for being able to use 2nd weaponset faster than without FH. It is that simple.

Obviously, the fact that fast hands is specifically locked behind a trait line should be a dead indicator that Arenanet does not want it baseline.

@cryorion.9532 said:Now please explain to me the power creep part. Check Discipline traitline to see what you are giving up, which damage modifiers. So not using Discipline for power damage builds is actually DPS loss. The only "power creep" I can think of, is more tanky builds being able to swap weapons and adjust to combat situations faster.

You have that backwards, it's not which traits you give up with discipline which matter. It's which traits you can take in other lines while having Fast Hands which matter.

Hmm... if fast hands is so mandatory that every build is locked to discipline, do not be surprised if one day it becomes nerfed to promote build diversity. :D

@Skotlex.7580 said:Hmm... if fast hands is so mandatory that every build is locked to discipline, do not be surprised if one day it becomes nerfed to promote build diversity. :D

yes forced inclusivity by making everything suck.

@Cloud Windfoot Omega.7485 said:

@"Skotlex.7580" said:Hmm... if fast hands is so mandatory that every build is locked to discipline, do not be surprised if one day it becomes nerfed to promote build diversity. :D

The opposite approach of "boost everything else until it's equally desirable" usually ends up being called power creep, too. :P

@Cyninja.2954 said:Bias and rational and objective balance suggestions do not go hand in hand.

In this case, I am biased for Fast Hands to be baseline because from my point of view, it wouldn't cause power creep that many people are afraid of.Let's think of possible power creep scenarios that could happen with FH baseline (thus all involving Strength traitline):

• Strenght, Defense and Spellbreaker warrior. With current FC damage and level 1 adrenaline burst damages, what power creep do you expect? Unkillable double endure pain dps?

• Strength, Defense and Arms warrior. This one would be probably the most improved core warrior build for PvP/WvW. With signet and Arms trait synergy, it could be very interesting build. Another possiblity would be tank gear and Unsuspecting Foe/Burst Precision traits for nice crits against cced enemies. What power creep do you expect? Unkillable double endure pain tank/dps?

• Strength, Arms and Spellbreaker warrior. No defense is self explanatory. Basically just like current Strength, Discipline and Spellbreaker build but without Discipline traits and with better signet synergy. What power creep do you expect? Hard to kill dps?

• Strength, Tactics and Spellbreaker warrior. No defense is self explanatory. What power creep do you expect from using Tactics traitline? Hard to kill dps/support?

• Strength, Tactics and Defense warrior. Another interesting build which wouldn't suck with FH baseline anymore. What about power creep? Unkillable double endure pain dps/support hybrid?

• Strength, Tactics and Arms warrior. No defense is self explanatory. This build could work with tank gear and Unsuspecting Foe/Burst Precision traits for nice crits against cced enemies. But again, is that power creep? Hard to kill tank/support/dps hybrid?

Now let's think again. With all builds mentioned above, you lose every Discipline trait. So no more adrenaline on weapon swap, no more adrenaline left upon using burst skill. Burst skills (including Full Counter) have longer cooldown. No more condition cleanse on weapon swap. No more immobilize removal when using mobility skills. No more base 25% movement speed (unless certain runes used) and no damage bonus while having swiftness. All those things are very important for smooth rotations and skill executions, especially for Spellbreaker. There is trade off.

Also let's not forget PvE. I have played countless times non-Discipline builds and it is very unsatisfying and annoying to play. Warrior's overall kit is tailored for 5 sec weapon swap. Fast Hands brings the fluidity and smoothness to the whole class.

After all, probably the highest warrior dps build in PvP/WvW would be Strength, Arms and Discipline warrior. So could there be more power creep for warrior? Or just more build diversity? It is sad to see all possible builds being held back due to missing one (minor) trait.

@Cyninja.2954 said:Obviously, the fact that fast hands is specifically locked behind a trait line should be a dead indicator that Arenanet does not want it baseline.

Things can change. The fact that warrior doesn't use dagger as weapon should be a dead indicator that Arenanet does not want warriors to use this weapon type. Right?

@Cyninja.2954 said:You have that backwards, it's not which traits you give up with discipline which matter. It's which traits you can take in other lines while having Fast Hands which matter.

Can you name me trait combinations that you think would make warrior overpowered in combination with Fast Hands and increase power creep?

@cryorion.9532 said:

@"Cyninja.2954" said:You have that backwards, it's not which traits you give up with discipline which matter. It's which traits you can take in other lines while having Fast Hands which matter.

I'll make it real simple:https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Spellbreaker_-_Power_Boonstrip_Bannerslave_(Fractal) Fractal Spellbreakerhttps://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Berserker_-_Condi_Bannerslave Raid condi bannerslave

Both of those builds are top tier. Both of those builds excel at their role and purpose. Both of those builds would benefit from having Fast Hands baseline.

That's simply the absolute top tier builds, not getting into any custom or slightly different builds.

Power creep does not and is not limited to damage. Power creep incorporates all performance. Even if a class becomes more tanky or has more utility, while retaining an ability/skill, that can cause power creep. Your view on the trait lines is limited at best, and heavily biased and skewed at worst. You either lack imagination of what is possible with baseline 5s weapon swap (the reset on Berserker F1 abilities to not say the least) or simply do not care.

@cryorion.9532 said:Things can change. The fact that warrior doesn't use dagger as weapon should be a dead indicator that Arenanet does not want warriors to use this weapon type. Right?

Exactly the same situation. Giving classes their elite specialization weapons baseline would cause power creep, in most cases in direct power (for example, the Firebrand Axe is almost completely a strait upgrade to the core guardian sword). You have basically made my point.

You are correct, the fact that warrior does not get dagger WITHOUT taking Spellbreaker is a dead indicator that Arenanet does not want warrior to have access to those skills otherwise.

I think OP just mistyped. He meant: The time has come to finally realize what a bad idea making the two traits Fast Hands and Warrior's Sprint baseline would be.

@Cyninja.2954 said:I'll make it real simple:https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Spellbreaker_-_Power_Boonstrip_Bannerslave_(Fractal) Fractal Spellbreakerhttps://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Berserker_-_Condi_Bannerslave Raid condi bannerslave

Both of those builds are top tier. Both of those builds excel at their role and purpose. Both of those builds would benefit from having Fast Hands baseline.

That's simply the absolute top tier builds, not getting into any custom or slightly different builds.

Power creep does not and is not limited to damage. Power creep incorporates all performance. Even if a class becomes more tanky or has more utility, while retaining an ability/skill, that can cause power creep.

You realize that top meta warrior builds (both core BS and condi Discipline BS) take Discipline traitline in PvE because of Inspiring Battle Standard and Axe Mastery (and of course FH), right? What powercreep do you expect from Power Boonstrip BS besides being able to swap faster to remove boons or to use mace/mace for ccs on demand? Do you think you can do as high dps as core BS? You act like you still had it all. Think about it also from the rotation fluidity and smoothness point of view.

Builds you mentioned are situational builds (aka according to you "Absolute Top Tier builds"), like No Pain No Gain fractals and few raid bosses. They would obviously benefit from Fast Hands baseline... that is the point of wanting FH as baseline...Are you saying that (with FH baseline) Power Boonstrip BS can suddenly outperform core BS warrior everywhere? Or Condi Tactics BS can suddenly outperform Condi Discipline BS?Isn't it more about those situational builds can be closer to the true top meta builds in terms of performance? And other non-discipline builds being viable?

@Cyninja.2954 said:Your view on the trait lines is limited at best, and heavily biased and skewed at worst. You either lack imagination of what is possible with baseline 5s weapon swap (the reset on Berserker F1 abilities to not say the least) or simply do not care.

I asked you, to name me examples of trait combinations that (together with FH baseline) would make warrior overpowered/increase power creep.You linked me situational builds (aka according to you "Absolute Top Tier builds") with vague arguments.

Unless you specify an exact traits and build that would outperfom all true top meta warrior builds currently in game (in every game mode) everywhere, there is no solid argument. Do it. I don't mind accepting that I was wrong, that this XY build would be truly broken and increase power creep by game-breaking amount :scream:

@Cyninja.2954 said:Exactly the same situation. Giving classes their elite specialization weapons baseline would cause power creep, in most cases in direct power (for example, the Firebrand Axe is almost completely a strait upgrade to the core guardian sword). You have basically made my point.

You are correct, the fact that warrior does not get dagger WITHOUT taking Spellbreaker is a dead indicator that Arenanet does not want warrior to have access to those skills otherwise.

The point of that part wasn't about power creep, but about that things can change and are not set in stone.