LFR - some kind of compromise — Guild Wars 2 Forums

LFR - some kind of compromise

Dioskur.1743Dioskur.1743 Member
edited November 28, 2018 in Fractals, Dungeons, and Raids

Hello everybody,
so Guild Wars 1 and 2 are my main games ever. I have been playing them since kid, but now time have past and many off people like me are full growth ppl with real-life obligations.

Are there any plans to make a LFR tool for PUGs ? - (some kind of automatic matchmaking tool) - basically sth like LFR in WoW.

I was playing many raids in the past myself, but know I don’t have time to organize groups and tactics. I even manage to get 1 set of legendary armor

Getting a group is getting huge chunk of time - more than direct raid gameplay itself - either forming a group or do it with Your guild at scheduled time.
I believe there should be some kind of LFR tool with easy mode for semi-casual like me, who just don’t have time anymore because of many obligations. Ofcourse with much less loot - for example 1 LI per full wing, not for each boss. I think it would satisfy casuals and hardcore gamers.

I know that best raiding players/guild are tired of raids because after doing dozens of them, they are so good at them that it is just a chore for them now - and its making even greater argument to make raids which are still so huge and so cool part of the content open to other players. I my opinion everybody would be happy.

In current state of the game doing raids would consume all time I have to play during the common week and I know there are dozens of ppl in a situation like me.

I know raids aren’t obligatory, but its just making me sad and leaving me with a feeling that I loose so much time, just to organize and make tactics right - specially in pugs Oo.
So in the end I understand both groups: casual players and regular raiding players… but should be some kind of compromise for both those groups?

Looking forward to Your reply guys.

<1

Comments

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/18677/do-raids-need-easy-normal-hard-difficulty-mode-merged/p1

    100+ pages discussing an easy mode for Raids. No need to start a new 100-page thread.

  • Dioskur.1743Dioskur.1743 Member
    edited November 28, 2018

    sorry. it just bugs me :D - was wondering is there any official dev response to this topic

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    What benefit(s) would LFR have over LFG? The only difference that I see is that LFR removes the option to choose your group.

    Are there enough players that are willing to play with a completely random group of players? Why couldn’t they just use the LFG with an advertisement that everyone is welcome?

    How will certain roles be enforced such as DPS, tank, and healer?

  • Dioskur.1743Dioskur.1743 Member
    edited November 28, 2018

    benefits LFR with easy mode? Your Time. LFG better rewards
    Why there can't be both LFR and LFG? What's wrong that you have 2 options rather than 1? You can always choose. So for hardocre raiders nothing changes or devs can make it even harder/better rewards.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dioskur.1743 said:
    sorry. it just bugs me :D - was wondering is there any official dev response to this topic

    There is:
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/113984/#Comment_113984

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dioskur.1743 said:
    benefits LFR with easy mode? Your Time. LFG better rewards
    Why there can't be both LFR and LFG? What's wrong that you have 2 options rather than 1? You can always choose. So for hardocre raiders nothing changes or devs can make it even harder/better rewards.

    Oh. I missed the part that you had mentioned an easy mode on top of LFR. Anet has already addressed that there will not be an easy mode multiple times.

  • @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Dioskur.1743 said:
    sorry. it just bugs me :D - was wondering is there any official dev response to this topic

    There is:
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/113984/#Comment_113984

    thank You very much :)

  • @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Dioskur.1743 said:
    benefits LFR with easy mode? Your Time. LFG better rewards
    Why there can't be both LFR and LFG? What's wrong that you have 2 options rather than 1? You can always choose. So for hardocre raiders nothing changes or devs can make it even harder/better rewards.

    Oh. I missed the part that you had mentioned an easy mode on top of LFR. Anet has already addressed that there will not be an easy mode multiple times.

    tanks as well :) but that makes me sad :(

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 28, 2018

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Dioskur.1743 said:
    benefits LFR with easy mode? Your Time. LFG better rewards
    Why there can't be both LFR and LFG? What's wrong that you have 2 options rather than 1? You can always choose. So for hardocre raiders nothing changes or devs can make it even harder/better rewards.

    Oh. I missed the part that you had mentioned an easy mode on top of LFR. Anet has already addressed that there will not be an easy mode multiple times.

    Yes, they did. Notice however that they've never said anything truly definite. It was always "this time" or "at the moment". Notice also, that they didn't really have to add those qualifiers in order to leave the options open. If they added them, it's probably because that option is still very much on the table.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Dioskur.1743Dioskur.1743 Member
    edited November 28, 2018

    I just hoped for those 2 raids modes. Gw2 way always the best mmo if you think about respecting players time.
    Once You have common raid squad and know tactics raids are getting faster and easier each time but still... why not made easy mode and current mode even harder if players really want it (for extra reward) and yes they want it. We all know that there are many players who strongly believe that current raids are to easy - and I understand it because they are if you have good team and experience.

    Still easy mode LFR raids could come with huge realize gap. Like make only 1 wing first and idk much time later another wing. It would be just a small amount of a raid content but enough not to frustrate casual players. Or maybe prehaps that you can make LFR easy wing run just 1 wing per week. There would be still huge content chunk for pros, and some procentage for casuals :D. Well we will see.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I’ve always had no issue with an easy mode so long as players cannot obtain achievement/collection progression and they receive no insights/divinations. They can only really do it for the “story” and to “train”.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 28, 2018

    @Dioskur.1743 said:
    I just hoped for those 2 raids modes. Gw2 way always the best mmo if you think about respecting players time.
    Once You have common raid squad and know tactics raids are getting faster and easier each time but still... why not made easy mode and current mode even harder if players really want it (for extra reward) and yes they want it. We all know that there are many players who strongly believe that current raids are to easy - and I understand it because they are if you have good team and experience.

    Still easy mode LFR raids could come with huge realize gap. Like make only 1 wing first and idk much time later another wing. It would be just a small amount of a raid content but enough not to frustrate casual players. Or maybe prehaps that you can make LFR easy wing run just 1 wing per week. There would be still huge content chunk for pros, and some procentage for casuals :D. Well we will see.

    The thing is there are bosses you almost can't make easier. For example at Mursaat Overseer (Wing 4, boss 2). 7-8 players just have to spank the boss and 2-3 others have to deal with some additional basic mechanics which aren't very hard to execute. Or Escort which is more an event than a boss which can be taught to new raiders easily so that new players don't have to deal with mechanics at all. A lot of today's raid veterans have started that way; they were new, were told to do a minimum of effort and learned from attempt to attempt and kill to kill.
    Nowadays training runs, especially organized via raid training discord communities, end up with getting 2-5 bosses down in the first evening. If you make raids easier than they are now you can't call them raids anymore and there's nothing different from killing trash mobs + some champs in the open world. Nothing you would learn from and nothing you will be prepared for towards the actual raid difficulty.
    People are using Dulfy to complete (map) achievements. If they did the same with raid bosses it would become so much easier for them to succeed.

  • Dioskur.1743Dioskur.1743 Member
    edited November 28, 2018

    Yes - escort and MO are so easy... but belive me in pugs it more often fails and fails so hard xD. So maybe just dont make tham easier ;) and make lfr matchmaking maybe ppl will learn in time

    Good example: in Warframe everything has matchmaking... everything :D

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dioskur.1743 said:
    Yes - escort and MO are so easy... but belive me in pugs it more often fails and fails so hard xD. So maybe just dont make tham easier ;) and make lfr matchmaking maybe ppl will learn in time

    Good example: in Warframe everything has matchmaking... everything :D

    Yes it fails because players don't even know one single basic thing or skill of their class. Preparation is everything but here the ability of players to play properly is lacking severely. As I said if you need to have an easy mode you need to dumb the encounter down so that you can kill every mob/boss with auto attacks only and it's guaranteed that you can't die.
    I mean, how hard is it to NOT step into a mine on escort. All you need to do is to stay far away if you have no clue to deactivate them. You just slot in one single stun break in case that you get feared. That's all and that's a thing thousands of players are not capable of. And because players are not able to use that one button content has to be tuned down? Really, no fricking way.

  • Dioskur.1743Dioskur.1743 Member
    edited November 28, 2018

    Exactly and thats why I made this post with easy mode. It's hard to get ppl who know what to do and most of them won't learn anything becouse it's hard for a newbie to even get a group xD it's a pathological cycle.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Seriously, if you are level 80 you should at least have a slight overview over the utilities of your classe. Otherwise you shouldn't start raiding since raids are the endgame of the endgame. Players should start with some dungeons and then head over to fractals. There is no need to rush to raids.

  • Dioskur.1743Dioskur.1743 Member
    edited November 28, 2018

    dungeons and fractals give no clue about how raids are made of. I am playing this game since beta and in my opinion this is how it is.
    The main problem is - you need 10 man and when there is 1 guy who fcksup everything mostly it is the end. Sometimes you can overdo this guy but in most cases you are done and 1 hour of teaming up, 1 hour for trying killing the boss is wasted. So much time wasted when you could just do other stuff in gw2 and get sth from it. And many ppl dont have 2hours to spend on nothing. and than another 1 hr teaming up ect ect...

  • polvere.2805polvere.2805 Member ✭✭✭

    Yay let's put on LFR!

    Then this happens:
    Case 1 : A group of experienced people open up lfr, squad fills up, then they ask LI and KP to the people they don't know resulting in a kick or raid disband if they don't meet their requirements.

    Case 2: A group of totally inexperienced people is made by the lfr, they can't kill a single boss cause nobody knows a single thing or has at least read about it beforehand, groups disband

    Putting LFR is basically giving a chanche to people that are clueless about raiding to get into a raid group, before discovering that raid groups don't want them not because they don't have experience but because they have a bad attitude towards raiding.
    It won't work and it will fuel toxicity at worst, it won't be used at best.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Dioskur.1743 said:
    benefits LFR with easy mode? Your Time. LFG better rewards
    Why there can't be both LFR and LFG? What's wrong that you have 2 options rather than 1? You can always choose. So for hardocre raiders nothing changes or devs can make it even harder/better rewards.

    Oh. I missed the part that you had mentioned an easy mode on top of LFR. Anet has already addressed that there will not be an easy mode multiple times.

    Yes, they did. Notice however that they've never said anything truly definite. It was always "this time" or "at the moment". Notice also, that they didn't really have to add those qualifiers in order to leave the options open. If they added them, it's probably because that option is still very much on the table.

    Pretty much everything is on the table. Regardless as to whether their response was definitive or not, it doesn’t change that they already have addressed the issue multiple times. Additional threads are very unlikely to get a different response. My guess is that we wouldn’t find out until the teaser for the release it would be contained in.

    On that i agree. It's not the kind of change they would announce until it was ready to ship. So, the threads are mostly meaningless as far as getting dev response goes. That doesn't mean they are completely meaningless though - at the very least they keep up the awareness that people are still interested in this kind of change.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Dioskur.1743Dioskur.1743 Member
    edited November 29, 2018

    Good arguments everybody. But still LFR in wow somehow works quite fine... so there could be some hope to make it fine :) and squad composition yes but in easy mode I think there would be less boss mechanics

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 29, 2018

    @Dioskur.1743 said:
    Good arguments everybody. But still LFR in wow somehow works quite fine... so there could be some hope to make it fine :) and squad composition yes but in easy mode I think there would be less boss mechanics

    Most bosses in GW2 have very few but essential mechanics.

    Now if we:

    • strip all class composition to make a LFR even possible
    • removed a majority of boss abilities and fight mechanics
    • reduced the loot available

    of what use exactly is the LFR or easy mode exactly? You neither learn the proper fight since mechanics were cut, you also have no loot incentive to go in and on top of all you do not get to practice your class or build.

    Might as well not bother in that case or?

  • Dioskur.1743Dioskur.1743 Member
    edited November 29, 2018

    As I said there many ppl like me who: don't have 1hr to group up than 1hr trying/failing becouse someone fails and another 1hr grouping again again… and having regular raiding guild is out question as well bescoue of inconsistent free time - in the end I am kicked sooner or later becouse of being 1 month offline.

    In the end raiding is like second job, because if I want to raid I need consistent schedule guild raiding and I can’t afford that. There are times that I can play all night long but as I said it’s random. You can't say it is not at least partly true for some ppl - and some I mean quite many. No hate really. Just life changes :)

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dioskur.1743 said:
    As I said there many ppl like me who: don't have 1hr to group up than 1hr trying/failing becouse someone fails and another 1hr grouping again again… and having regular raiding guild is out question as well bescoue of inconsistent free time - in the end I am kicked sooner or later becouse of being 1 month offline.

    In the end raiding is like second job, because if I want to raid I need consistent schedule guild raiding and I can’t afford that. There are times that I can play all night long but as I said it’s random. You can't say it is not at least partly true for some ppl - and some I mean quite many. No hate really. Just life changes :)

    Oh, but that's precisely where the difficulty of raids comes from. It's not like they are a challenge of individual skill - they are not. The real limiting factor in raids is (and always was) the ability and willingness to treat them as a second job. Nothing more and nothing less.

    And it's exactly what many raiders want. This way, they can have their "challenge", without actually needing to worry whether it will end up too hard for them.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Dioskur.1743Dioskur.1743 Member
    edited November 29, 2018

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Dioskur.1743 said:
    As I said there many ppl like me who: don't have 1hr to group up than 1hr trying/failing becouse someone fails and another 1hr grouping again again… and having regular raiding guild is out question as well bescoue of inconsistent free time - in the end I am kicked sooner or later becouse of being 1 month offline.

    In the end raiding is like second job, because if I want to raid I need consistent schedule guild raiding and I can’t afford that. There are times that I can play all night long but as I said it’s random. You can't say it is not at least partly true for some ppl - and some I mean quite many. No hate really. Just life changes :)

    Oh, but that's precisely where the difficulty of raids comes from. It's not like they are a challenge of individual skill - they are not. The real limiting factor in raids is (and always was) the ability and willingness to treat them as a second job. Nothing more and nothing less.

    And it's exactly what many raiders want. This way, they can have their "challenge", without actually needing to worry whether it will end up too hard for them.

    This post is... so true. Best post in this topic xD. Thank You very much :)

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dioskur.1743 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Dioskur.1743 said:
    As I said there many ppl like me who: don't have 1hr to group up than 1hr trying/failing becouse someone fails and another 1hr grouping again again… and having regular raiding guild is out question as well bescoue of inconsistent free time - in the end I am kicked sooner or later becouse of being 1 month offline.

    In the end raiding is like second job, because if I want to raid I need consistent schedule guild raiding and I can’t afford that. There are times that I can play all night long but as I said it’s random. You can't say it is not at least partly true for some ppl - and some I mean quite many. No hate really. Just life changes :)

    Oh, but that's precisely where the difficulty of raids comes from. It's not like they are a challenge of individual skill - they are not. The real limiting factor in raids is (and always was) the ability and willingness to treat them as a second job. Nothing more and nothing less.

    And it's exactly what many raiders want. This way, they can have their "challenge", without actually needing to worry whether it will end up too hard for them.

    This post is... so true. Best post in this topic xD. Thank You very much :)

    It’s not entirely true though. It takes skill to learn and execute the mechanics in a team-based setting. Simply treating it as a second job doesn’t mean that you’ll succeed. Those that are proficient at raids complete them fairly quickly so I’d hardly consider that as a second job as well.

  • Dioskur.1743Dioskur.1743 Member
    edited November 29, 2018

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Dioskur.1743 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Dioskur.1743 said:
    As I said there many ppl like me who: don't have 1hr to group up than 1hr trying/failing becouse someone fails and another 1hr grouping again again… and having regular raiding guild is out question as well bescoue of inconsistent free time - in the end I am kicked sooner or later becouse of being 1 month offline.

    In the end raiding is like second job, because if I want to raid I need consistent schedule guild raiding and I can’t afford that. There are times that I can play all night long but as I said it’s random. You can't say it is not at least partly true for some ppl - and some I mean quite many. No hate really. Just life changes :)

    Oh, but that's precisely where the difficulty of raids comes from. It's not like they are a challenge of individual skill - they are not. The real limiting factor in raids is (and always was) the ability and willingness to treat them as a second job. Nothing more and nothing less.

    And it's exactly what many raiders want. This way, they can have their "challenge", without actually needing to worry whether it will end up too hard for them.

    This post is... so true. Best post in this topic xD. Thank You very much :)

    It’s not entirely true though. It takes skill to learn and execute the mechanics in a team-based setting. Simply treating it as a second job doesn’t mean that you’ll succeed. Those that are proficient at raids complete them fairly quickly so I’d hardly consider that as a second job as well.

    that is also true ; I meant by this more of: scheduled cyclic organised activity somehow like job, you can be good at it or bad but I you want have sth from it you need some kind of devotion/comitment for it

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    It’s not entirely true though. It takes skill to learn and execute the mechanics in a team-based setting.

    Not really. Or at least it doesn't require any significant level of skill (some minimum is of course necessary, but it is relatively low. On some bosses can be very low). All your skill really influences is how long it will take you to learn the encounter, never whether you will be able to do it.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • So in the end the final conclusion is mostly: Time I guess :/

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    It’s not entirely true though. It takes skill to learn and execute the mechanics in a team-based setting.

    Not really. Or at least it doesn't require any significant level of skill (some minimum is of course necessary, but it is relatively low. On some bosses can be very low). All your skill really influences is how long it will take you to learn the encounter, never whether you will be able to do it.

    You can say that about any content in any game though. Certainly someone’s skill influences how long it takes for them to learn an encounter. So does that mean there’s no such thing as a challenging encounter? Wouldn’t a player’s skill level improve as it’s tailored to an encounter compared to what it was prior to doing the encounter?

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 29, 2018

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    It’s not entirely true though. It takes skill to learn and execute the mechanics in a team-based setting.

    Not really. Or at least it doesn't require any significant level of skill (some minimum is of course necessary, but it is relatively low. On some bosses can be very low). All your skill really influences is how long it will take you to learn the encounter, never whether you will be able to do it.

    You can say that about any content in any game though. Certainly someone’s skill influences how long it takes for them to learn an encounter. So does that mean there’s no such thing as a challenging encounter? Wouldn’t a player’s skill level improve as it’s tailored to an encounter compared to what it was prior to doing the encounter?

    On first encounters, perhaps, but that "improvement" slows down very fast. After you've done several bosses, any new one is not really goint to improve the learning time of the future ones by any significant time anymore.

    I'd say though that it's less a case if skill increasing, and more of a pattern recognition. Since the boss mechanics do tend to be similar, you can use your experience from the earlier bosses to deal with the new ones. In a way, you can skip part of the fight learning phase, because you already did it before, just on an earlier boss. You may call that skill, but for me it's not realy the same.

    Incidentally, a very good player from, say, fractal CMs that has never done any raid boss before may end up having to learn a new boss for a longer time than a less skilled player that does have an experience from other raid wings. Once that better player catches up, he's going to leave the other behind in the future, but initially all of his skil will be less important than that content-specific experience.

    It's something i have seen more than a few times already.

    And to answer your question, a challenging encounter is one you can never "learn" to the point of being reasonably sure of succeeding. One you can never do "on autopilot", one where you will always need to give your 100%, and perhaps even have to pass your normal limits.

    A 1v1 PvP against equally skilled opponent is challenging. A fight where you can learn your opponent to the point where if you won't kitten out you will be practically certain of victory is not challenging. It's merely an illusion of difficulty - something that pretends to be challenging in order for you too feel better, but in reality is something where your victory has already been planned for.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 29, 2018

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    It’s not entirely true though. It takes skill to learn and execute the mechanics in a team-based setting.

    Not really. Or at least it doesn't require any significant level of skill (some minimum is of course necessary, but it is relatively low. On some bosses can be very low). All your skill really influences is how long it will take you to learn the encounter, never whether you will be able to do it.

    You can say that about any content in any game though. Certainly someone’s skill influences how long it takes for them to learn an encounter. So does that mean there’s no such thing as a challenging encounter? Wouldn’t a player’s skill level improve as it’s tailored to an encounter compared to what it was prior to doing the encounter?

    On first encounters, perhaps, but that "improvement" slows down very fast. After you've done several bosses, any new one is not really goint to improve the learning time of the future ones by any significant time anymore.

    Never said it would. The whole time piece wasn’t my argument in this to begin with.

    I'd say though that it's less a case if skill increasing, and more of a pattern recognition. Since the boss mechanics do tend to be similar, you can use your experience from the earlier bosses to deal with the new ones. In a way, you can skip part of the fight learning phase, because you already did it before, just on an earlier boss. You may call that skill, but for me it's not realy the same.

    In most things, it is simple pattern recognition. Chess involves a lot of pattern recognition so does that mean that playing chess well enough to be successful doesn’t require any skill but just takes time?

    Incidentally, a very good player from, say, fractal CMs that has never done any raid boss before may end up having to learn a new boss for a longer time than a less skilled player that does have an experience from other raid wings. Once that better player catches up, he's going to leave the other behind in the future, but initially all of his skil will be less important than that content-specific experience.

    It's something i have seen more than a few times already.

    Different, although similar, skill sets.

    And to answer your question, a challenging encounter is one you can never "learn" to the point of being reasonably sure of succeeding. One you can never do "on autopilot", one where you will always need to give your 100%, and perhaps even have to pass your normal limits.

    Most game enemies operate using scripts. No encounter is really truly random. Therefore, there are no challenging games? Be careful not to alter the definition of “challenging” to suit your argument position.

    A 1v1 PvP against equally skilled opponent is challenging. A fight where you can learn your opponent to the point where if you won't kitten out you will be practically certain of victory is not challenging. It's merely an illusion of difficulty - something that pretends to be challenging in order for you too feel better, but in reality is something where your victory has already been planned for.

    That’s an example of a challenge that doesn’t change over time. The majority of challenges are things that are difficult at first which you then overcome and they become easier.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 30, 2018

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    A 1v1 PvP against equally skilled opponent is challenging. A fight where you can learn your opponent to the point where if you won't kitten out you will be practically certain of victory is not challenging. It's merely an illusion of difficulty - something that pretends to be challenging in order for you too feel better, but in reality is something where your victory has already been planned for.

    That’s an example of a challenge that doesn’t change over time. The majority of challenges are things that are difficult at first which you then overcome and they become easier.

    But was it ever a challenge, if you were practically guaranteed to overcome it with enough time? Raids in the end are not a test of skill. They are a test of willingness to play in a certain way. And that kind of test is not a challenge. It is merely a choice.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    A 1v1 PvP against equally skilled opponent is challenging. A fight where you can learn your opponent to the point where if you won't kitten out you will be practically certain of victory is not challenging. It's merely an illusion of difficulty - something that pretends to be challenging in order for you too feel better, but in reality is something where your victory has already been planned for.

    That’s an example of a challenge that doesn’t change over time. The majority of challenges are things that are difficult at first which you then overcome and they become easier.

    But was it ever a challenge, if you were practically guaranteed to overcome it with enough time? Raids in the end are not a test of skill. They are a test of willingness to play in a certain way. And that kind of test is not a challenge. It is merely a choice.

    Again... a challenge does not need to remain the at the same level of difficulty over time. You're using a very narrowed version of what challenge is. Throwing a group at a raid over and over doesn't guarantee that they will succeed. Raids are not set up that if you spend X amount of time that you automatically win.

  • zombyturtle.5980zombyturtle.5980 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 30, 2018

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    A 1v1 PvP against equally skilled opponent is challenging. A fight where you can learn your opponent to the point where if you won't kitten out you will be practically certain of victory is not challenging. It's merely an illusion of difficulty - something that pretends to be challenging in order for you too feel better, but in reality is something where your victory has already been planned for.

    That’s an example of a challenge that doesn’t change over time. The majority of challenges are things that are difficult at first which you then overcome and they become easier.

    But was it ever a challenge, if you were practically guaranteed to overcome it with enough time? Raids in the end are not a test of skill. They are a test of willingness to play in a certain way. And that kind of test is not a challenge. It is merely a choice.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    A 1v1 PvP against equally skilled opponent is challenging. A fight where you can learn your opponent to the point where if you won't kitten out you will be practically certain of victory is not challenging. It's merely an illusion of difficulty - something that pretends to be challenging in order for you too feel better, but in reality is something where your victory has already been planned for.

    That’s an example of a challenge that doesn’t change over time. The majority of challenges are things that are difficult at first which you then overcome and they become easier.

    But was it ever a challenge, if you were practically guaranteed to overcome it with enough time? Raids in the end are not a test of skill. They are a test of willingness to play in a certain way. And that kind of test is not a challenge. It is merely a choice.> @Dioskur.1743 said:
    As I said there many ppl like me who: don't have 1hr to group up than 1hr trying/failing becouse someone fails and another 1hr grouping again again… and having regular raiding guild is out question as well bescoue of inconsistent free time - in the end I am kicked sooner or later becouse of being 1 month offline.

    In the end raiding is like second job, because if I want to raid I need consistent schedule guild raiding and I can’t afford that. There are times that I can play all night long but as I said it’s random. You can't say it is not at least partly true for some ppl - and some I mean quite many. No hate really. Just life changes :)

    If you dont have time to practice and get skilled enough at the encounter to beat it then honestly, I dont think you should beat it. Its meant to be endgame and need time and effort to overcome. It sucks that you dont have the time and im sorry for that but we cant have every single piece of content, especially content designed for hardcore players, doable by people who have 30mins per day to play. Like any game, if you want to really get good and beat the hardest stuff, you need to put in the time and effort.

    You say some nights you can play all night. Create your own group and practice all night then if you really want to beat the raid. Even if you dont kill it, you will learn alot and be better next time you can play multiple hours. It took me 3 months to beat my first raid boss.

    As far as easy mode, I wouldn't really care if they added easy mode as long as you get 0 LI from it, unique skins and achieves remain locked and the resources needed to program it are taken from the living world team and not raid team. I still think its a waste to invest in easy raids, and the mode would be dead in a month but maybe id be wrong.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 30, 2018

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    A 1v1 PvP against equally skilled opponent is challenging. A fight where you can learn your opponent to the point where if you won't kitten out you will be practically certain of victory is not challenging. It's merely an illusion of difficulty - something that pretends to be challenging in order for you too feel better, but in reality is something where your victory has already been planned for.

    That’s an example of a challenge that doesn’t change over time. The majority of challenges are things that are difficult at first which you then overcome and they become easier.

    But was it ever a challenge, if you were practically guaranteed to overcome it with enough time? Raids in the end are not a test of skill. They are a test of willingness to play in a certain way. And that kind of test is not a challenge. It is merely a choice.

    Again... a challenge does not need to remain the at the same level of difficulty over time. You're using a very narrowed version of what challenge is. Throwing a group at a raid over and over doesn't guarantee that they will succeed. Raids are not set up that if you spend X amount of time that you automatically win.

    You're right. You are not guaranteed to win if you spend enough time on raids. But if you spend enough time on raids and are willing to play in a specific way, then yes, you are practically guaranteed a success.

    As i said, while there is some minimum skill requirement, it is extremely low. The main factor is not skill, but willingness to play in a specific way, as well as an ability to spend enough time on it.

    @zombyturtle.5980 Oh, i happen to have enough time, got my boss kills and legendary armor too. I am simply arguing with raids being a challenge. I don't see them that way. For me, they are simply work.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @zombyturtle.5980 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    A 1v1 PvP against equally skilled opponent is challenging. A fight where you can learn your opponent to the point where if you won't kitten out you will be practically certain of victory is not challenging. It's merely an illusion of difficulty - something that pretends to be challenging in order for you too feel better, but in reality is something where your victory has already been planned for.

    That’s an example of a challenge that doesn’t change over time. The majority of challenges are things that are difficult at first which you then overcome and they become easier.

    But was it ever a challenge, if you were practically guaranteed to overcome it with enough time? Raids in the end are not a test of skill. They are a test of willingness to play in a certain way. And that kind of test is not a challenge. It is merely a choice.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    A 1v1 PvP against equally skilled opponent is challenging. A fight where you can learn your opponent to the point where if you won't kitten out you will be practically certain of victory is not challenging. It's merely an illusion of difficulty - something that pretends to be challenging in order for you too feel better, but in reality is something where your victory has already been planned for.

    That’s an example of a challenge that doesn’t change over time. The majority of challenges are things that are difficult at first which you then overcome and they become easier.

    But was it ever a challenge, if you were practically guaranteed to overcome it with enough time? Raids in the end are not a test of skill. They are a test of willingness to play in a certain way. And that kind of test is not a challenge. It is merely a choice.> @Dioskur.1743 said:
    As I said there many ppl like me who: don't have 1hr to group up than 1hr trying/failing becouse someone fails and another 1hr grouping again again… and having regular raiding guild is out question as well bescoue of inconsistent free time - in the end I am kicked sooner or later becouse of being 1 month offline.

    In the end raiding is like second job, because if I want to raid I need consistent schedule guild raiding and I can’t afford that. There are times that I can play all night long but as I said it’s random. You can't say it is not at least partly true for some ppl - and some I mean quite many. No hate really. Just life changes :)

    If you dont have time to practice and get skilled enough at the encounter to beat it then honestly, I dont think you should beat it. Its meant to be endgame and need time and effort to overcome. It sucks that you dont have the time and im sorry for that but we cant have every single piece of content, especially content designed for hardcore players, doable by people who have 30mins per day to play. Like any game, if you want to really get good and beat the hardest stuff, you need to put in the time and effort.

    You say some nights you can play all night. Create your own group and practice all night then if you really want to beat the raid. Even if you dont kill it, you will learn alot and be better next time you can play multiple hours. It took me 3 months to beat my first raid boss.

    As far as easy mode, I wouldn't really care if they added easy mode as long as you get 0 LI from it, unique skins and achieves remain locked and the resources needed to program it are taken from the living world team and not raid team. I still think its a waste to invest in easy raids, and the mode would be dead in a month but maybe id be wrong.

    I think if they gave easy mode raids separate rewards then what is currently there, it may entice people to do them every week as well. I think certain achievements should be doable, such as lore books etc, where people just go in after someone has cleared the wing and finish it anyways.

    Any Legendary Armor components should be restricted to normal mode though, just like WvW locks the good stuff behind the high rank of 2000 and PvP locks it behind rank 100.

    That way there is still a reason to do easy mode and the carrot is still there for normal.

  • zombyturtle.5980zombyturtle.5980 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 30, 2018

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    A 1v1 PvP against equally skilled opponent is challenging. A fight where you can learn your opponent to the point where if you won't kitten out you will be practically certain of victory is not challenging. It's merely an illusion of difficulty - something that pretends to be challenging in order for you too feel better, but in reality is something where your victory has already been planned for.

    That’s an example of a challenge that doesn’t change over time. The majority of challenges are things that are difficult at first which you then overcome and they become easier.

    But was it ever a challenge, if you were practically guaranteed to overcome it with enough time? Raids in the end are not a test of skill. They are a test of willingness to play in a certain way. And that kind of test is not a challenge. It is merely a choice.

    Again... a challenge does not need to remain the at the same level of difficulty over time. You're using a very narrowed version of what challenge is. Throwing a group at a raid over and over doesn't guarantee that they will succeed. Raids are not set up that if you spend X amount of time that you automatically win.

    You're right. You are not guaranteed to win if you spend enough time on raids. But if you spend enough time on raids and are willing to play in a specific way, then yes, you are practically guaranteed a success.

    As i said, while there is some minimum skill requirement, it is extremely low. The main factor is not skill, but willingness to play in a specific way, as well as an ability to spend enough time on it.

    @zombyturtle.5980 Oh, i happen to have enough time, got my boss kills and legendary armor too. I am simply arguing with raids being a challenge. I don't see them that way. For me, they are simply work.

    I meant to quote the OP but it seems forums messed up.

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @zombyturtle.5980 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    A 1v1 PvP against equally skilled opponent is challenging. A fight where you can learn your opponent to the point where if you won't kitten out you will be practically certain of victory is not challenging. It's merely an illusion of difficulty - something that pretends to be challenging in order for you too feel better, but in reality is something where your victory has already been planned for.

    That’s an example of a challenge that doesn’t change over time. The majority of challenges are things that are difficult at first which you then overcome and they become easier.

    But was it ever a challenge, if you were practically guaranteed to overcome it with enough time? Raids in the end are not a test of skill. They are a test of willingness to play in a certain way. And that kind of test is not a challenge. It is merely a choice.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    A 1v1 PvP against equally skilled opponent is challenging. A fight where you can learn your opponent to the point where if you won't kitten out you will be practically certain of victory is not challenging. It's merely an illusion of difficulty - something that pretends to be challenging in order for you too feel better, but in reality is something where your victory has already been planned for.

    That’s an example of a challenge that doesn’t change over time. The majority of challenges are things that are difficult at first which you then overcome and they become easier.

    But was it ever a challenge, if you were practically guaranteed to overcome it with enough time? Raids in the end are not a test of skill. They are a test of willingness to play in a certain way. And that kind of test is not a challenge. It is merely a choice.> @Dioskur.1743 said:
    As I said there many ppl like me who: don't have 1hr to group up than 1hr trying/failing becouse someone fails and another 1hr grouping again again… and having regular raiding guild is out question as well bescoue of inconsistent free time - in the end I am kicked sooner or later becouse of being 1 month offline.

    In the end raiding is like second job, because if I want to raid I need consistent schedule guild raiding and I can’t afford that. There are times that I can play all night long but as I said it’s random. You can't say it is not at least partly true for some ppl - and some I mean quite many. No hate really. Just life changes :)

    If you dont have time to practice and get skilled enough at the encounter to beat it then honestly, I dont think you should beat it. Its meant to be endgame and need time and effort to overcome. It sucks that you dont have the time and im sorry for that but we cant have every single piece of content, especially content designed for hardcore players, doable by people who have 30mins per day to play. Like any game, if you want to really get good and beat the hardest stuff, you need to put in the time and effort.

    You say some nights you can play all night. Create your own group and practice all night then if you really want to beat the raid. Even if you dont kill it, you will learn alot and be better next time you can play multiple hours. It took me 3 months to beat my first raid boss.

    As far as easy mode, I wouldn't really care if they added easy mode as long as you get 0 LI from it, unique skins and achieves remain locked and the resources needed to program it are taken from the living world team and not raid team. I still think its a waste to invest in easy raids, and the mode would be dead in a month but maybe id be wrong.

    I think if they gave easy mode raids separate rewards then what is currently there, it may entice people to do them every week as well. I think certain achievements should be doable, such as lore books etc, where people just go in after someone has cleared the wing and finish it anyways.

    Any Legendary Armor components should be restricted to normal mode though, just like WvW locks the good stuff behind the high rank of 2000 and PvP locks it behind rank 100.

    That way there is still a reason to do easy mode and the carrot is still there for normal.

    Yes the lore achieves would be fine.
    If they gave separate rewards yes I agree it would keep people raiding. However doing so would be getting into the territory of an entirely new game mode. You now need a dev team to balance the easy mode, and a rewards team to design and implement the rewards. I dont know where anet would get the resources to invest in that without severely impacting their existing release schedules which are already strained. I dont think enough casual players would be interested even in an easy mode, if they would have to wait an additional 1-2 months for their ls episodes.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @zombyturtle.5980 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    A 1v1 PvP against equally skilled opponent is challenging. A fight where you can learn your opponent to the point where if you won't kitten out you will be practically certain of victory is not challenging. It's merely an illusion of difficulty - something that pretends to be challenging in order for you too feel better, but in reality is something where your victory has already been planned for.

    That’s an example of a challenge that doesn’t change over time. The majority of challenges are things that are difficult at first which you then overcome and they become easier.

    But was it ever a challenge, if you were practically guaranteed to overcome it with enough time? Raids in the end are not a test of skill. They are a test of willingness to play in a certain way. And that kind of test is not a challenge. It is merely a choice.

    Again... a challenge does not need to remain the at the same level of difficulty over time. You're using a very narrowed version of what challenge is. Throwing a group at a raid over and over doesn't guarantee that they will succeed. Raids are not set up that if you spend X amount of time that you automatically win.

    You're right. You are not guaranteed to win if you spend enough time on raids. But if you spend enough time on raids and are willing to play in a specific way, then yes, you are practically guaranteed a success.

    As i said, while there is some minimum skill requirement, it is extremely low. The main factor is not skill, but willingness to play in a specific way, as well as an ability to spend enough time on it.

    @zombyturtle.5980 Oh, i happen to have enough time, got my boss kills and legendary armor too. I am simply arguing with raids being a challenge. I don't see them that way. For me, they are simply work.

    I meant to quote the OP but it seems forums messed up.

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @zombyturtle.5980 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    A 1v1 PvP against equally skilled opponent is challenging. A fight where you can learn your opponent to the point where if you won't kitten out you will be practically certain of victory is not challenging. It's merely an illusion of difficulty - something that pretends to be challenging in order for you too feel better, but in reality is something where your victory has already been planned for.

    That’s an example of a challenge that doesn’t change over time. The majority of challenges are things that are difficult at first which you then overcome and they become easier.

    But was it ever a challenge, if you were practically guaranteed to overcome it with enough time? Raids in the end are not a test of skill. They are a test of willingness to play in a certain way. And that kind of test is not a challenge. It is merely a choice.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    A 1v1 PvP against equally skilled opponent is challenging. A fight where you can learn your opponent to the point where if you won't kitten out you will be practically certain of victory is not challenging. It's merely an illusion of difficulty - something that pretends to be challenging in order for you too feel better, but in reality is something where your victory has already been planned for.

    That’s an example of a challenge that doesn’t change over time. The majority of challenges are things that are difficult at first which you then overcome and they become easier.

    But was it ever a challenge, if you were practically guaranteed to overcome it with enough time? Raids in the end are not a test of skill. They are a test of willingness to play in a certain way. And that kind of test is not a challenge. It is merely a choice.> @Dioskur.1743 said:
    As I said there many ppl like me who: don't have 1hr to group up than 1hr trying/failing becouse someone fails and another 1hr grouping again again… and having regular raiding guild is out question as well bescoue of inconsistent free time - in the end I am kicked sooner or later becouse of being 1 month offline.

    In the end raiding is like second job, because if I want to raid I need consistent schedule guild raiding and I can’t afford that. There are times that I can play all night long but as I said it’s random. You can't say it is not at least partly true for some ppl - and some I mean quite many. No hate really. Just life changes :)

    If you dont have time to practice and get skilled enough at the encounter to beat it then honestly, I dont think you should beat it. Its meant to be endgame and need time and effort to overcome. It sucks that you dont have the time and im sorry for that but we cant have every single piece of content, especially content designed for hardcore players, doable by people who have 30mins per day to play. Like any game, if you want to really get good and beat the hardest stuff, you need to put in the time and effort.

    You say some nights you can play all night. Create your own group and practice all night then if you really want to beat the raid. Even if you dont kill it, you will learn alot and be better next time you can play multiple hours. It took me 3 months to beat my first raid boss.

    As far as easy mode, I wouldn't really care if they added easy mode as long as you get 0 LI from it, unique skins and achieves remain locked and the resources needed to program it are taken from the living world team and not raid team. I still think its a waste to invest in easy raids, and the mode would be dead in a month but maybe id be wrong.

    I think if they gave easy mode raids separate rewards then what is currently there, it may entice people to do them every week as well. I think certain achievements should be doable, such as lore books etc, where people just go in after someone has cleared the wing and finish it anyways.

    Any Legendary Armor components should be restricted to normal mode though, just like WvW locks the good stuff behind the high rank of 2000 and PvP locks it behind rank 100.

    That way there is still a reason to do easy mode and the carrot is still there for normal.

    Yes the lore achieves would be fine.
    If they gave separate rewards yes I agree it would keep people raiding. However doing so would be getting into the territory of an entirely new game mode. You now need a dev team to balance the easy mode, and a rewards team to design and implement the rewards. I dont know where anet would get the resources to invest in that without severely impacting their existing release schedules which are already strained. I dont think enough casual players would be interested even in an easy mode, if they would have to wait an additional 1-2 months for their ls episodes.

    If they went the wow route in terms of rewards, essentially it’s a case of having the same weapon but different colouring or different effects, like the weapon set released with Istan. That way your not creating brand new weapons for each wing, but alternate colouring and effects, much like the Super Adventure Box Weapons.

    As for how resources would be rearranged, I have no idea. Can’t comment on it really.

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