Are Black Lion Keys "Loot Boxes" ?

https://kotaku.com/the-ftc-says-it-will-investigate-loot-boxes-1830714932

The Federal Trade Commission says it is investigating loot boxes, a controversial video game mechanic that can allow players to spend real money on randomized goods.

During a hearing yesterday, FTC chairman Joseph Simons addressed New Hampshire Senator Maggie Hassan, who has recently spoken out about loot boxes. During her turn to ask questions at the hearing, Hassan cited a recent report by Great Britain’s Gambling Commission that found 31% of children in the country had at one point or another paid money to open a loot box, a well as moves by Belgium, Japan, and other countries to limit how loot boxes can be used in games.

“Given the seriousness of this issue, I think it is in fact time for the FTC to investigate these mechanisms to ensure that children are being adequately protected and to educate parents about potential addiction or other negative impacts of these games,” Hassan said. “Would you commit to undertaking this project and keeping this committee informed about it?”

In response, Simons said “yes,” but declined to go into any more detail about the FTC’s current position on loot boxes and whether they constitute a form of gambling.............

yes it is — they need to declare the chances for each rarity .. say 30% for uncommon, 10% rare ... etc

I think so. You can buy keys to open locked boxes. Although keys are sometimes rewarded, locked boxes you have little use for drop far more frequently.

That said, you can kinda make the argument that you're not required to buy the keys with real money, since you can convert gold into gems.

Did their report happen to mention how those children got access to the cards used to make these purchases? Let me save you some time, probably not, because poor parenting is always the fault of evil businesses. Before anyone starts dancing in the streets, thinking this will solve anything, there's a post on these forums by someone from Belgium that points out a very negative side effect, so be careful what you wish for.

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/61781/gemstore-and-belgium#latest

Poor parenting or not isn't the real issue here, though. The real issue is how badly the laws against it will be written, and how much that will mess with us.

Anyway... are BLTCs loot boxes? Yes. The Statuettes are a step in the direction of reducing how "loot boxy" they are, but they are still loot boxes. Any solid law against loot boxes will shut them down, hard.

ANet is trying to figure out other ways to make up that lost income if that happens. We've seen some of that already, but losing the BLTCs will still cause massive changes in the game. Not all of them will be good.

It's up to each nation's government to decide what is or isn't gambling, what is or isn't a loot box, and whether that's the sort of practice they want to regulate. When I see a headline (or worse, a politician) saying

... Commission that found 31% of children in the country had at one point or another paid money to open a loot boxI want to know:

• Was this an estimate or did they actually count everyone?
• How did they define "loot box"?
• Where did the money come from? (Already in the account or using a credit card for the transaction.)
• What games was this in? PC? Console? Mobile?
• What age ranges?
• Of those kids who opened one, how many went on to open more?
• In what way do the lootboxes affect the outcome of the game? (e.g. many mobile games, lootboxes are required to 'win')

Good public policy isn't based on alarming headlines. It requires distinguish those people who can benefit from a change in rules versus those who won't be affected versus those who might be harmed.

I am not suggesting that the FTC shouldn't consider the issue; there's no question in my mind that the various gaming studios (big & small) aren't regulating themselves to prevent this sort of thing, even after Belgium's decision earlier this year. I just hope that people will keep things in perspective and not treat all lootboxes as the same thing, not assume that RNG+money = evil.

Its only a loot box if they play them backwards.

@"Palador.2170" said:Poor parenting or not isn't the real issue here, though. The real issue is how badly the laws against it will be written, and how much that will mess with us.

Anyway... are BLTCs loot boxes? Yes. The Statuettes are a step in the direction of reducing how "loot boxy" they are, but they are still loot boxes. Any solid law against loot boxes will shut them down, hard.

ANet is trying to figure out other ways to make up that lost income if that happens. We've seen some of that already, but losing the BLTCs will still cause massive changes in the game. Not all of them will be good.

Whether parenting should be an issue or not, it will be, and I base that entirely off of the statement in the OP about children paying to open loot boxes. I have seen the argument more than a few times that "loot boxes are predatory because they're aimed at children", even though most children don't have their own credit cards. I despise the concept, but my solution was to not buy them. Even in swtor, where I got coins for their store from my sub, I didn't buy them. So I anticipate that this will be an aspect of anything they do to pass any laws on the subject.

I would be incredibly surprised if ArenaNet was ever stung by this loot box controversy. Every item in this game can be obtained without spending a single penny on gems and I think this is the sole reason why ArenaNet are safe. Other games offer keys to their loot boxes without any means of obtaining them in-game, making them more susceptible to the gambling accusation.

Laws on this might be a carpet bomb.

@robertthebard.8150 said:

@"Palador.2170" said:Poor parenting or not isn't the real issue here, though. The real issue is how badly the laws against it will be written, and how much that will mess with us.

Anyway... are BLTCs loot boxes? Yes. The Statuettes are a step in the direction of reducing how "loot boxy" they are, but they are still loot boxes. Any solid law against loot boxes will shut them down, hard.

ANet is trying to figure out other ways to make up that lost income if that happens. We've seen some of that already, but losing the BLTCs will still cause massive changes in the game. Not all of them will be good.

Thats just like saying make alcohol illegal because children can eventually buy it anyways. It shoul be illegal to sell it to this audience.

@Donutdude.9582 said:I would be incredibly surprised if ArenaNet was ever stung by this loot box controversy. Every item in this game can be obtained without spending a single penny on gems and I think this is the sole reason why ArenaNet are safe. Other games offer keys to their loot boxes without any means of obtaining them in-game, making them more susceptible to the gambling accusation.

Just because it's possible to obtain BLC-keys without money does not mean they're not cash shop items.

Most BLC-keys come from the gemstore. Gems are dependent on the amount of cash players spend. Gems can not be generated without cash. They can be traded for gold, yes, but they can not be generated. This means every gem has been paid for by someone (even if it's not the same person who ends up spending it) and thus has a real money value.

BLC-keys and mount adoption licenses are both lootboxes and will be susceptible to whatever regulations are coming in the future.

What would be nice is if parents watched their own kids. I dont see how protecting kids is my responsibility, as I don't have any and I certainly don't see why its mine or anets job to baby sit their in game behavior thus ruining or limiting my experience in game for no reason, other than parents are negligent and use online games as unsupervised babysitters.

@"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:It's up to each nation's government to decide what is or isn't gambling, what is or isn't a loot box, and whether that's the sort of practice they want to regulate. When I see a headline (or worse, a politician) saying

... Commission that found 31% of children in the country had at one point or another paid money to open a loot boxI want to know:

• Was this an estimate or did they actually count everyone?
• How did they define "loot box"?
• Where did the money come from? (Already in the account or using a credit card for the transaction.)
• What games was this in? PC? Console? Mobile?
• What age ranges?
• Of those kids who opened one, how many went on to open more?
• In what way do the lootboxes affect the outcome of the game? (e.g. many mobile games, lootboxes are required to 'win')

It would have been helpful if the article the OP linked actually cited the research that this 'Hassan' fella did...You can read it here.Some snippets:• 14% of 11-16 year olds had spent their own money on gambling in the past week (that is,the seven days prior to completing the survey), up from 12% in 2017 but still lower thanrates seen prior to 2017• This compared to 13% who had drunk alcohol in the past week, 4% who had smokedcigarettes and 2% who had taken illegal drugs

• 5% of 11-16 year olds have spent their own money on online gambling in the past 12months, but only 1% have done so in the past week• 6% have gambled online using a parent or guardian’s account• 13% have ever played gambling-style games online• 31% have ever opened loot boxes in a computer game or app, to try to acquire in-gameitems, while 3% claim to have ever bet with in-game items.

This last part I quoted is so broad though. “3% claim to have bet with ingame items”. In terms of Guild Wars 2, throwing anything into the Mystic Forge that isn’t a known recipe is technically considered gambling. So I can safely say that a huge majority of players have “gambled” here, even if the stakes are lower (throwing cheap materials/items in for something else) it is still gambling by definition of “take risky action in the hope of a desired result.”

Honestly, if we take this research/survey information, especially where parents set strict rules down, the problem isn’t as prolific as people make it out to be. Sure, some kids/young adults do develop addictive tendencies, but video gaming is not what causes it.

While still lootboxes, they are the less malicious kind. It becomes a problem once people feel the need to purchase them to get ahead, aka pay to win. Since GW2 gem store items are entirely convenience based I don't thinkt hey will face any big problems with this.

Hmm...31% ever opened a loot box. Did it say opened, or spent money (theirs or someone else's) to open?I mean, I can open a Black Lion Chest right now without spending a dime.
That would be misleading.

@Blocki.4931 said:While still lootboxes, they are the less malicious kind. It becomes a problem once people feel the need to purchase them to get ahead, aka pay to win. Since GW2 gem store items are entirely convenience based I don't thinkt hey will face any big problems with this.

a lootbox is a lootbox, malicious or less malicious, qol or p2w. but in the end it will be on the law to deside. i for sure wouldn´t be sad if they would be gone and all items would be able to achive via an ingame activity. (and im not talking about farming gold here)

That is unlikely to ever happen (in my opinion).

IMO a big step in the right direction would be to make the small number of account bound items in each chest tradable, like they used to be. That way black lion chests are completely optional - if you want a specific item you can buy it from the TP and you only need to buy keys if you want to open chests yourself.

@"robertthebard.8150" said:Did their report happen to mention how those children got access to the cards used to make these purchases? Let me save you some time, probably not, because poor parenting is always the fault of evil businesses. Before anyone starts dancing in the streets, thinking this will solve anything, there's a post on these forums by someone from Belgium that points out a very negative side effect, so be careful what you wish for.

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/61781/gemstore-and-belgium#latest

The only reason Belgium is in that position is because they're the exception at the moment, and a lot of companies (including Anet) have opted for the 'quick fix' of simply blocking people from Belgium from buying those items without offering an alternative. If more countries go the same way with making loot boxes illegal, especially if it includes the USA (because that's where Anet is based) they'd have to do something more effective. After all there's no point having Black Lion Chests and a set of items only obtainable by opening them if no one is allowed to buy the keys.

@Zunki.3916 said:Thats just like saying make alcohol illegal because children can eventually buy it anyways. It shoul be illegal to sell it to this audience.

Alcohol should be illegal, just like cigarettes should be, because it is a drug in many regards (addiction potential, clouds your mind, potential to cause severe harm to your health). In Sweden, they recently raised the price for any alcoholic product to a set minimum to discourage people from buying alcoholic beverages frequently.

As for loot boxes, yes, they are gambling - they should be globally banned from any game. Only time will tell if this will ever happen, though.

@Ashantara.8731 said:

@Zunki.3916 said:Thats just like saying make alcohol illegal because children can eventually buy it anyways. It shoul be illegal to sell it to this audience.

Im from sweden what is this recently raised price you speak of mate?`

@"Linken.6345" said:Im from sweden what is this recently raised price you speak of mate?`

Wasn't it Sweden but another Skandinavian country? I remember reading the news earlier this year (or last year?) that minimum prices for wine etc. were raised. Let me see if I can find a link...

Edit: https://www.debatingeurope.eu/2015/03/04/europeans-binge-drinking/One user's comment: "Or look at Sweden: Alcohol is unaffordable, laws are strict, so people take the ship to international waters and drink their souls off!"

(Still trying to figure out which country did it more recently, apparently it has been like this in Sweden forever.)

Edit #2: Oops! It was Scotland --> https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-43197384(Sweden was mentioned in comparison in the news report I watched.)

@Ashantara.8731 said:As for loot boxes, yes, they are gambling - they should be globally banned from any game. Only time will tell if this will ever happen, though.

They wouldn't necessarily need to be banned completely, after all even out-right gambling for money is legal in a lot of places. It's just more restricted and more closely regulated than loot boxes currently are. Admittedly if they were classified as gambling under current legislation that would probably come to the same thing. In the UK for example they'd have to restrict their sale to over 18's (GW2 is currently 12+), would have to buy a gambling licence and operate under the conditions of that and I think there's restrictions on advertising too. Which means like the sweepstakes Anet would probably decide it's too complicated and simply block UK players from buying keys.

But from what I've seen of the various discussions going on around the world it's unlikely most loot boxes will simply be bought under current gambling legislation. It's more likely there will be new laws specific to loot boxes which would allow for different conditions or even different options. For example boxes which give useful items (like actual weapons instead of just skins) could be treated differently to purely cosmetic ones.

Personally I'm glad this is being discussed as IMO it's been a grey area for far too long and some companies definitely have abused the loot box system to pressure players to spend more than they'd normally be comfortable with. But as with all new (or even changed) legislation it's important for all interested parties to involve themselves in the discussion to make sure their voices are heard and try to ensure any new laws achieve what they want.

If you spend money on something based on chance, it most certainly is.

@"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:It's up to each nation's government to decide what is or isn't gambling, what is or isn't a loot box, and whether that's the sort of practice they want to regulate. When I see a headline (or worse, a politician) saying

... Commission that found 31% of children in the country had at one point or another paid money to open a loot boxI want to know:

• Was this an estimate or did they actually count everyone?
• How did they define "loot box"?
• Where did the money come from? (Already in the account or using a credit card for the transaction.)
• What games was this in? PC? Console? Mobile?
• What age ranges?
• Of those kids who opened one, how many went on to open more?
• In what way do the lootboxes affect the outcome of the game? (e.g. many mobile games, lootboxes are required to 'win')

Agree Ilc.Interesting points were raised last week in BBC Question time regarding Child Gambling addictions and it highlighted a genuine growing problem in the UK and I guess around the globe now. The info was referenced to under 15yr olds and the numbers were pretty shocking tbh.That said many of the surveys and figures put out there cover a broad spectrum of gambling activities, most notably things like online betting on sports, but with the newly formed gaming addiction clinics popping up around the country now, it will only be a matter of time before the UK government enforcement agencies gather a head of steam and push on loot boxes imo.Like "Illconceived Was Na.9871" says though, no one really knows where all these figures come from, what was the target audience, what particular activity is genuinely the source of such number and how were they able to access the facility to gamble in the first place.As a parent of 2 kids who happily use their mobile phones and games consoles/laptops on a daily basis (after their homework is done :) ) I actively ensure they have restricted access to certain things using parental locks, data restrictions etc... in other words parents must shoulder some of the blame here. As adults we are afforded the luxury of choice as to whether or not to buy into gem store purchases because it is deemed our responsibility.. children of ages highlighted in these surveys rely on parental responsibility or should be, but sure sometimes that gets circumvented and that's why there are varying tools to help parents ward against such things like gambling and prawnography. Waiting for a government to act is the wrong way to think imo.. prevention is always better than reactive actions .. kinda after the horse has bolted I guess.Do I think keys are loot boxes - YesIs the practice deemed predatory - Yes and No depending on what the individual seeks from itANET have made efforts to listen to the player base regarding BL chests and other similar games of chance like Mount licences, which I think reinforce the idea of choice rather than chance. Chest have guaranteed drops like statuettes from which you can outright purchase many items within chests so it essentially becomes a guaranteed gemstore purchase rather than a gamble, except you may need multiple purchases to get enuff statuettes whilst at the same time offering a chance to obtain extras from each chest. I see this as a half way house solution, which in fairness not many other online games afford to players unless forced..."BF2 cough"Personally as an adult I like to think I am able to control my inner gambling demons, but at the same time I actually enjoy opening BL chests or mount licences, but my expectations are not drawn to any particular item or skin, it's more about supporting the game a little bit each month and in return I get something back that can be useful to me somewhere in the game. (granted I have decided to withdraw that monthly support this last 3-6 months for my own reasons, but that in itself shows how much BL chests push that "must have demon in my head". Children however may lack the maturity or financial understandings by which such decisions and choices should be made and so there are still things ANET and other gaming companies could and should be doing in an effort to help sort out this mess of child gambling addictions, alongside governance and parental responsibility.One such area imo is this new sweepstake malarkey and using info to send out marketing .. its just like the BBC Question Time panel said.. regarding sports gambling and such... watching the sport is great but before, during and after the tv is lit up with adverts for gambling companies, offering free bets etc etc at all hours of the day, when in fact a low level form of violence, sexual content, bad language etc is placed on a watershed or edited out.. gambling is basically left unrestricted and in your face for all to see man, woman, adult, child, pet budgey alike and this new sweepstake offers out that same opportunity when the marketing materials get pushed out.