Why can't the PC fathom the existence of Joko? (PoF spoilers)

When you first get your memory back during The Departing instance, the PC instantly goes on to mock Joko and very purposefully taunt him. In spite of supposedly being in a hurry to stop Balthazar, i.e, needing an army ASAP, we disregard Joko's offer completely and spend several minutes explaining how we would use his army without his help (let me repeat, we were in a hurry to muster an army). Then we spend what must have been in-game days of camp invasions in a very good but also nonsensical plan to take over the Awakened army, when in reality we should have stricken the deal with the kitten so we could dispatch Balthazar as fast as possible.

And then there's also the Vabbi zone. As soon as you get in, a whisper's agent goes on to explain how their culture is linked to the Awakening rituals and that their society couldn't simply be crushed from night to day. Yet during the whole exposition all I could do was cringe as my PC acted like a woodstock kid saying the whole thing was absurd and that she would show these people what was better for them. And it keeps getting worse as you get to the Necropolis and the Bone Pit (the PC cannot empathize with the lives of these people and internalize nuances, in spite of her mind being strong enough to conquer Mordremoth???).

I don't get why they made the PC necessarily and utterly antagonize Joko so hard. It feels forced and very un-RPG, specially if we put Amoon under the banner of Joko a couple days before meeting him. The writers do not have to make an effort to make Joko seem like a dystopian tyrant: he is one by definition. There should be no effort to show us how the propaganda is insane and how there are bad things being swept under the rug. Yet I never disagreed so hard and so often with my own PC's dialogue before in game, because in antagonizing Joko she basically ignores there's a whole civilization happening out there, regardless of her personal opinions about it. I get very bad vibes from my PC and actually sympathize even further with the Vabbians instead of pitying them. Am I just being biased towards undead or did anyone else feel this?

Considering Joko is legendary for his dictatorship and his evil, why WOULDN'T you turn him down a peg? Hell, why would you even strike a deal with him knowing it was a deal in the far past that gave him such power? I sympathize with the Vabbians due to being brainwashed and whatnot from a young age, but the PC is right in that they have to be opened up to how things should be. But at the same time I personally agree with the Order of Shadows in that it needs to be a slow process, you move too fast and it can cause serious problems.

I actually adore the whole Awakened faction and the way they're presented in this expansion! For once, the ugly dead mooks aren't all inherently evil and guys with big, scary demon skull faces have relatable personalities—almost like they're real people or something. All of Joko's top generals in Vabbi had great personalities and I especially liked the beastmaster. Overall, I would have to say that everything south of the Bone Wall is absolutely brilliant.

Now, that's not to say that Vabbian society isn't without problems. It's clearly a fascist state where children are indoctrinated from a young age to admonish dissenting opinions and admire the strong military presence of the Mordent Crescent. I surely wouldn't want to be part of a family that was caught expressing dissenting opinions and exiled beyond the wall or turned into an undead slave... but ironically, that's what I love about it. It's a real society with real, nuanced problems. Not everything is good, but likewise, not everything is bad.

So kudos to the writers for getting that part right!

Making a deal with Joko would in fact be the proof that the PC cannot fathom the existence of Joko.

Joko has a LONG history of doing exactly what Balthazar did to him - betrayal the moment the partner is no longer needed. The most recent case being the Sunspears, whom Joko had annihilated or converted when he began his campaign again. Just a brief look up of Joko's lore would be "he succeeded because he betrayed those he made deals with once they were no longer useful to him."

It was a smart move for the PC to not accept such a deal, because it would definitely bite them in the back.

However, it was an idiotic move to taunt Joko before leaving. It felt like it was done for the sole purpose of explaining the next part of the plan, as well as initializing a hostility between Joko and the PC come Season 4 or 5. Just as Vlast's death was done for the sole purpose of putting Aurene in Balthazar's corsairs.

Rytlock has warned us about Joko and I trust the Charr. If you read the history of Elona, your PC will know how Joko took over Elona after helping the hero to end the Nightfall. My PC simply refuse to repeat that same mistake.

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Making a deal with Joko would in fact be the proof that the PC cannot fathom the existence of Joko.

Joko has a LONG history of doing exactly what Balthazar did to him - betrayal the moment the partner is no longer needed. The most recent case being the Sunspears, whom Joko had annihilated or converted when he began his campaign again. Just a brief look up of Joko's lore would be "he succeeded because he betrayed those he made deals with once they were no longer useful to him."

It was a smart move for the PC to not accept such a deal, because it would definitely bite them in the back.

However, it was an idiotic move to taunt Joko before leaving. It felt like it was done for the sole purpose of explaining the next part of the plan, as well as initializing a hostility between Joko and the PC come Season 4 or 5. Just as Vlast's death was done for the sole purpose of putting Aurene in Balthazar's corsairs.

Well I wanted to kill that mummy anyway so bring it on joko! for once we used you and not the other way around

Because he's a tyrant! That's why!

It's funny hearing Joko rant and rave about "betrayal" when he's being doing the same to the Sunspears! Balthazar just gave him a taste of his own medicine, he just doesn't like it! The PC had it right here.

I see your point but the only part o agree with ultimately is that we could stand to sympathize more with vabbi

I love zombies. Joko is basically running North Korea and all through the zone of Vabbi you see how people have lived alongside the Awakened and it's' really fascinating and touching. But Joko is still a dick. I agreed with keeping him bound and, for the sake of expediency, pretending to be an official to get the army rallied...but I really wanted afterwards to make peace with the Awakened and the citizens of Vabbi. Maybe showing the Awakened commanders how competent you are would make them consider an alliance. It would be a start anyway.

But it seems like we're not moving in that direction unfortunately.

@Disig.7169 said:I love zombies. Joko is basically running North Korea and all through the zone of Vabbi you see how people have lived alongside the Awakened and it's' really fascinating and touching. But Joko is still a kitten. I agreed with keeping him bound and, for the sake of expediency, pretending to be an official to get the army rallied...but I really wanted afterwards to make peace with the Awakened and the citizens of Vabbi. Maybe showing the Awakened commanders how competent you are would make them consider an alliance. It would be a start anyway.

But it seems like we're not moving in that direction unfortunately.

Maybe with the remnants after we take down joko and free kourna and istan

@maxwelgm.4315 said:When you first get your memory back during The Departing instance, the PC instantly goes on to mock Joko and very purposefully taunt him. In spite of supposedly being in a hurry to stop Balthazar, i.e, needing an army ASAP, we disregard Joko's offer completely and spend several minutes explaining how we would use his army without his help (let me repeat, we were in a hurry to muster an army). Then we spend what must have been in-game days of camp invasions in a very good but also nonsensical plan to take over the Awakened army, when in reality we should have stricken the deal with the kitten so we could dispatch Balthazar as fast as possible.

And then there's also the Vabbi zone. As soon as you get in, a whisper's agent goes on to explain how their culture is linked to the Awakening rituals and that their society couldn't simply be crushed from night to day. Yet during the whole exposition all I could do was cringe as my PC acted like a woodstock kid saying the whole thing was absurd and that she would show these people what was better for them. And it keeps getting worse as you get to the Necropolis and the Bone Pit (the PC cannot empathize with the lives of these people and internalize nuances, in spite of her mind being strong enough to conquer Mordremoth???).

I don't get why they made the PC necessarily and utterly antagonize Joko so hard. It feels forced and very un-RPG, specially if we put Amoon under the banner of Joko a couple days before meeting him. The writers do not have to make an effort to make Joko seem like a dystopian tyrant: he is one by definition. There should be no effort to show us how the propaganda is insane and how there are bad things being swept under the rug. Yet I never disagreed so hard and so often with my own PC's dialogue before in game, because in antagonizing Joko she basically ignores there's a whole civilization happening out there, regardless of her personal opinions about it. I get very bad vibes from my PC and actually sympathize even further with the Vabbians instead of pitying them. Am I just being biased towards undead or did anyone else feel this?

First, Joko is utterly unreliable. Any deal with him would be doomed to betrayal. In fact, this point is made repeatedly by NPCs in GW1. The Undead King took great pleasure in cheating people out of deals. ( It might even be called poetic justice that he was finally cheated and betrayed by Balthazar. ) Also, time is said to flow quite differently in the spirit world ( "The Mists" in Tyria, ) We returned having been dead only for a very short time.

With respect to trolling Joko; Given the situation I can see the PC's need to vent.

As to our reaction to the Order of Shadows scout. I have to agree, though I'm not quite as upset about it. Consider.. here's a person seeing a culture that most (non Vabbians) would consider an abomination, literally a living hell. The Vabbians are propagandized into believing this is desirable. Yes, it's worthy of being shocked over.

One thing that is worth mentioning here is that the Awakened themselves, or at least their leaders, are sapient beings that are capable of making their own decisions... including rebelling against their creator if the circumstances are right. The despotism is Joko's doing, but the whole 'living side-by-side with undead ancestors' does not necessarily need to go away just because Joko does. I believe it is indicated that Joko is the only one powerful enough to create Awakened undead, though, so Joko's removal would likely mean that no more are created.

On making a deal with Joko, how about we stop for a moment and consider one of, if not the biggest reason, as to why the PC was there in the first place. Rytlock, finding his sword, Sohothin, had discovered its flame had burnt out. Balthazar, who happened to be nearby, lit it for him basically in exchange for his freedom. Balthazar then continues on to perform all the actions we see him perform in LS3 and PoF. This is why history is taught so that you don't make the same mistakes our predecessors did.

@draxynnic.3719 said:I believe it is indicated that Joko is the only one powerful enough to create Awakened undead, though, so Joko's removal would likely mean that no more are created.

Quite a few Mordant Crescent create Awakened throughout events. None of them seem to be all that powerful compared to the Mordant Crescent Awakened, though. So Joko isn't the only one able, but he may be the only one able to make Awakened who can make more Awakened.

@maxwelgm.4315 said:When you first get your memory back during The Departing instance, the PC instantly goes on to mock Joko and very purposefully taunt him. In spite of supposedly being in a hurry to stop Balthazar, i.e, needing an army ASAP, we disregard Joko's offer completely and spend several minutes explaining how we would use his army without his help (let me repeat, we were in a hurry to muster an army). Then we spend what must have been in-game days of camp invasions in a very good but also nonsensical plan to take over the Awakened army, when in reality we should have stricken the deal with the kitten so we could dispatch Balthazar as fast as possible.

And then there's also the Vabbi zone. As soon as you get in, a whisper's agent goes on to explain how their culture is linked to the Awakening rituals and that their society couldn't simply be crushed from night to day. Yet during the whole exposition all I could do was cringe as my PC acted like a woodstock kid saying the whole thing was absurd and that she would show these people what was better for them. And it keeps getting worse as you get to the Necropolis and the Bone Pit (the PC cannot empathize with the lives of these people and internalize nuances, in spite of her mind being strong enough to conquer Mordremoth???).

I don't get why they made the PC necessarily and utterly antagonize Joko so hard. It feels forced and very un-RPG, specially if we put Amoon under the banner of Joko a couple days before meeting him. The writers do not have to make an effort to make Joko seem like a dystopian tyrant: he is one by definition. There should be no effort to show us how the propaganda is insane and how there are bad things being swept under the rug. Yet I never disagreed so hard and so often with my own PC's dialogue before in game, because in antagonizing Joko she basically ignores there's a whole civilization happening out there, regardless of her personal opinions about it. I get very bad vibes from my PC and actually sympathize even further with the Vabbians instead of pitying them. Am I just being biased towards undead or did anyone else feel this?

Don't go to North Korea, you'll be chanting praise for the Chairman in a week :PJoko has mass graves for the undead, he's that bad. The civilisation you see is Vabbi, which was there before him.

I do think however we made an error taunting and leaving Joko in a cage made from Balthazar's will, there were only two outcomes; Balthazar wins and we all die or we beat Balthazar and release Joko. Since the only outcome we want releases Joko anyway we should probably have done this ahead of time (now someone who is famous for holding grudges and is utterly unkillable is loose and hates us).

@Ithilwen.1529 said:

@maxwelgm.4315 said:When you first get your memory back during The Departing instance, the PC instantly goes on to mock Joko and very purposefully taunt him. In spite of supposedly being in a hurry to stop Balthazar, i.e, needing an army ASAP, we disregard Joko's offer completely and spend several minutes explaining how we would use his army without his help (let me repeat, we were

in a hurry to muster an army

). Then we spend what must have been in-game days of camp invasions in a very good but also nonsensical plan to take over the Awakened army, when in reality we should have stricken the deal with the kitten so we could dispatch Balthazar as fast as possible.

And then there's also the Vabbi zone. As soon as you get in, a whisper's agent goes on to explain how their culture is linked to the Awakening rituals and that their society couldn't simply be crushed from night to day. Yet during the whole exposition all I could do was cringe as my PC acted like a woodstock kid saying the whole thing was absurd and that she would show these people what was better for them. And it keeps getting worse as you get to the Necropolis and the Bone Pit (the PC cannot empathize with the lives of these people and internalize nuances, in spite of her mind being strong enough to conquer Mordremoth???).

I don't get

why

they made the PC necessarily and utterly antagonize Joko so hard. It feels forced and very un-RPG, specially if we put Amoon under the banner of Joko a couple days before meeting him. The writers do not have to make an effort to make Joko seem like a dystopian tyrant: he is one by definition. There should be no effort to show us how the propaganda is insane and how there are bad things being swept under the rug. Yet I never disagreed so hard and so often with my own PC's dialogue before in game, because in antagonizing Joko she basically ignores there's a whole civilization happening out there, regardless of her personal opinions about it. I get very bad vibes from my PC and actually sympathize even further with the Vabbians instead of pitying them. Am I just being biased towards undead or did anyone else feel this?

Joko's cage is made from Balthazar's will, he would be freed automatically when Balthazar was defeated. Better release him ourselves and have him well disposed towards us than taunting him and facing an unkillable character who is famous for holding grudges.

@Coulter.2315 said:Joko's cage is made from Balthazar's will, he would be freed automatically when Balthazar was defeated. Better release him ourselves and have him well disposed towards us than taunting him and facing an unkillable character who is famous for holding grudges.

Or... Say that you're unable to break him free, so to free him you must defeat Balthazar. Thus you're "working to free Joko" without actually doing so, and no grudge holding. Heck, Joko might have even scribbled a note for his Awakened "help the Commander kill Balthazar" - though that's unlikely.

There's always more than two options.

Someone is assuming that with Balthazar's death the cage he created for Joko dies with him, we all know what happens when you assume(though it seems likely to be the case). It could also be the case that this is the writer's way of getting Joko out of the picture without us having to deal with him, as maybe his cage does go with Balthazar but he can't leave through the portal which closes behind us...to may possibilities.

This game stopped caring about RPG elements after vanilla.

The Commander speaks the same regardless of race in this expansion. Humans spit on their revered war god, who was retconned into Abaddon 2.0 despite previously being wise enough to put Abbadon down.

This whole story stinks. The human gods are conveniently either villainized or rendered impotent so the writers can go ahead and write their racial harmony kumbaya cosmopolitan society. It's such a naive depiction of the world and tribalism or how geopolitical factions truly function.

They make Kalla the next revenant legend in the expansion where Turai Ossa should have been the next legend. Because they want to include the charr and decentralize humans from the story telling.

@maxwelgm.4315 said:When you first get your memory back during The Departing instance, the PC instantly goes on to mock Joko and very purposefully taunt him. In spite of supposedly being in a hurry to stop Balthazar, i.e, needing an army ASAP, we disregard Joko's offer completely and spend several minutes explaining how we would use his army without his help (let me repeat, we were in a hurry to muster an army). Then we spend what must have been in-game days of camp invasions in a very good but also nonsensical plan to take over the Awakened army, when in reality we should have stricken the deal with the kitten so we could dispatch Balthazar as fast as possible.

I'm glad that they didn't make The Commander a liar that will make deals with someone and then go back on his word. Going back on your word to an enemy is still going back on your word.

The Commander speaks the same regardless of race in this expansion. Humans spit on their revered war god, who was retconned into Abaddon 2.0 despite previously being wise enough to put Abbadon down.

That is simply not true. That might be the case in the living story (and Anet utterly failed to give human characters an believable respond there) but in the expansion the PC actually tries multiple times to reason with Balthi and pleads him to stop this madness. I dont know if it only appears if your character chooses "blessed by balthasar" in the creation, but in the first meeting (on the second map) my char said something along the lines: "All my life I have prayed to you and received your blessings. But your actions will destroy Tyria. So please stop this!". And if your "revered war god" not only killed you personally but also creates blood and murder all over the place on his own people..... I can really believe why your fate is .... shaken.

But I totally have to agree that the writing of Balthasar is absolute horrible...... You really can feel that he is made to be evil for the pure sake to have an evil villian that the player can hate. I really miss the times where the villians had an believable reasons to do the things they do and stop acting like "look how evil I am, because I am evil MUHAHA!!!"

This whole story stinks. The human gods are conveniently either villainized or rendered impotent so the writers can go ahead and write their racial harmony kumbaya cosmopolitan society. It's such a naive depiction of the world and tribalism or how geopolitical factions truly function.

Oh yes..... I also have the fear that "features" of the different cultures do more and more go away .... until we have a unified mass where everything feel, acts and lives the same way. Which may be good in real life because the life of the individual is not chackled by its cultures chains .... but absolutely boring in a game. Same happened to the great orders. When we had vigil, durmand and OoW things were cool and there was so much potential to tell great stories, but then they became the pact .... and Anet had to kill them out of the story .... because they became to powerful and to boring to tell a good story with.......

I have carefully read all the points posted here. All I would like to do is clarify even further that I do realize Joko is irredeemably evil and I did notice the not-so-subtle parallel to a certain real world country with a meme-worthy dictator. The point is, however (and @"Zenith.7301" has mentioned it), that we are losing RPG elements for the sake of streamlining the narrative into our PC being a extension of what the writers think the PC should be (not our characters, so to speak). I don't plan to have the PC praising Joko and volunteering his/her voice to the announcement broadcasting, but there are many ways to deal with the same issue, even arriving at the same outcome (as shown in "A small victory" instance), and it would be nice to get more of that, specially if PoF draws from the core game and not from HoT.

My complaint is not necessarily that the PC is antagonizing Palawa Joko (which as you guys correctly pointed out, it should happen if the PC comes from a "free" society), but that the narrative drives this point by force rather than naturally establishing it. It would have been more than enough to see the Boneyard PoI in Vabbi to think ill of Joko, not to mention literally everything else (did you all realize how the Vabbian nobles at Vehjin are quite literally adult children?). Instead we are kittened with over the top and condescending dialogue from a supposedly Iron willed dragonslayer.

The same thing actually happens with Balthazar. A fierce and proud being that stops at nothing to get what he wants is reduced to the whiny paragon of corny dialogue simply to get the point across that we are justified in killing him. This reminds me of the writers of Judge Dredd explaining how sadistic and over the top their villains had to be, so that Dredd wouldn't come out as a kitten psychopath himself. Many moments were done just right with Balthazar (such as the last battle in spite of Sohothin Ex Machina), but in certain moments like the start of "The Departing", his dialogue looked more like venting than like meaningful and powerful intimidation.

Joko would antagonize us, with or without us taunting him, so why are you discussing if the commander should or shouldn't antagonize joko? the man wants to rule the world since gw1 when he tried to have all leader of tyria, cantha and elona killed. So it doesn't matter what the commander did or what he could have done, joko would still try to kill and control everyone, specially now that he think himself a god pfff

I don't think Joko thinks himself a god, rather than he plays himself as a god. Unless years of acting up to the propaganda he spews over Vabbi (and probably Kourna and Istan) had made him convince himself to believe the act.

It's also hard to argue for sure that he's after world domination. He never once made a true attack on Kryta, Cantha, or Ascalon - let alone Orr when it was a place fresh with corpses for him to expand his rule of an undead empire. His sending R.O.X. and P.O.X. could have easily just been a distraction to trick people into thinking it wasn't Joko (after all, no one theorized it was Joko until it got revealed...).

@maxwelgm.4315 said:My complaint is not necessarily that the PC is antagonizing Palawa Joko (which as you guys correctly pointed out, it should happen if the PC comes from a "free" society)

I'm sorry, what is this "freedom" you speak of? My human comes from an absolute monarchy backed by divine right of kings where the Ministry can be shut down at her whim. My charr comes from a totalitarian military state where all subjects are required to serve in the army from birth. The sylvari have individual freedom but only the Firstborn and the Pale Tree decide on the overall direction that society should grow in and challenges against Ventari's Tablet are systemically shut down.

And yet, the PC is forced to react to Joko's empire as if they were from a Western democratic liberal state.

Perhaps a norn or asura would find the lack of political freedom jarring but you would think that humans of all people would be used to monarchs who indiscriminately slay their political enemies.