What happened to the Forged? — Guild Wars 2 Forums

What happened to the Forged?

Jeknar.6184Jeknar.6184 Member ✭✭✭✭

Balthazar was defeated but there were large contigents of the Forged across all Elona. Yet, they are nowhere to be seen in the LS4 maps. What exactly happened to them after Balthzar's death?

Were they all rallied to Vabbi when Balthazar went to face Kralkatorrik? (Meaning they were defeated by the Awakened army led by the Commander)
Considering the Herald of Balthazar said she was converted, I'm assuming the Forged are sentient beings similarly to the Awakened? Or they are actually closer to Dragon Minions?
Did they just drop dead without their god?

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Comments

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 30, 2018

    I assumed that if not dead on balths demise, the scattered remains of his army were quickly wiped out by Elonian and/or Awakened forces given no replacements would have been made once thos carrying out the rituals and any generating any portals from places like Fissure of Woe were shut down.

    Also, if Balth didnt invade beyond Vabbi, then we wouldnt expect to see any Forged in ls4, after all Balths immediate end game was Kralk and he was camped in the brandstorm above Vabbi.

    As for what they are, they are sentient beings. Similar to Exalted, but using initially souls from the domain of the lost and then rituals to convert those they killed if memory serves. I believe wiki has a solid write up on them that is more accurate than I

    Edit: was needless for me to write anything since i just checked the wiki and it covers all your questions including post Balth https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Forged

  • Story ended - they went poof like every other enemy.

  • Fenom.9457Fenom.9457 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I think it’d be great to see a powerful remnant hiding out somewhere in Elona. They could make a one or two wing raid between the desolation and vabbi or between vabbi and Jahai

    HARRY! DIDYA PUT YER NAME IN DA GOBLET OF FIYAH?!

  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Grand Vizier Utumishi: It is a happy day indeed. Even now, the Awakened forces of the transcendent King Joko are driving out the last of Balthazar's underlings.
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Small_Victory_&28Epilogue&29#Dialogue

    So they didn't die on Balthazar's death, but were quickly routed by the Awakened army after Balthazar's death. The dialogue implies that the focus was on "pushing them out of Elona" rather than "eliminating" them" however, so it's possible that they'll return. But it's also possible for the Toxic Alliance, Molten Alliance, and Aetherblades to return; yet when they had the best chances to do so (Toxic Alliance being implied influenced by Mordremoth but no show during either the Mordrem Invasion weekend or HoT), and Anet's tendency to completely forget about loose plot threads, I doubt we'll see them again.

    @Jeknar.6184 said:
    Considering the Herald of Balthazar said she was converted, I'm assuming the Forged are sentient beings similarly to the Awakened? Or they are actually closer to Dragon Minions?

    Technically they're closest to the Exalted - or the Shiro'ken if you're a GW1 player. They're human souls put into armor and animated by fire magic. And since their free will is stripped from them, they kind of fit as a third parallel to Awakened and dragon minions.

    That said: @ArenaNet, please please stop giving us armies that lack any individual free will. Risen, Mordrem, Forged, Awakened, Branded - I could describe them all with the same paragraph just swapping names and elemental design to them. The only armies we fought that had free will were Scarlet's alliances and White Mantle (the latter was barely a major plot, the former was only partially given that TA and Twisted Watchwork don't fit that description).

    You left out Inquest, Joko's loyalists, flame legion, pirates, nightmare court, and the Zintl in HoT. I'm sure there may be others I missed.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 1, 2018

    @Eekasqueak.7850 said:
    You left out Inquest, Joko's loyalists, flame legion, pirates, nightmare court, and the Zintl in HoT. I'm sure there may be others I missed.

    None of those are the "major armies" though. They're not "the focus" of a plot or sub-plot. Joko's loyalists are the closest, but even then, they're a minor sub-fraction and half the time not an enemy at all.

    The major plot enemies are - in order - risen, Scarlet's alliances, mordrem, White Mantle, Forged, Awakened, branded. And of those, even when we deviate away from dragon minions, they're functionally (lorewise) the same just with different aesthetics. Only exception was half of Scarlet's alliances and the White Mantle. 1.5 out of 7.

  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Grand Vizier Utumishi: It is a happy day indeed. Even now, the Awakened forces of the transcendent King Joko are driving out the last of Balthazar's underlings.
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Small_Victory_&28Epilogue&29#Dialogue

    So they didn't die on Balthazar's death, but were quickly routed by the Awakened army after Balthazar's death. The dialogue implies that the focus was on "pushing them out of Elona" rather than "eliminating" them" however, so it's possible that they'll return. But it's also possible for the Toxic Alliance, Molten Alliance, and Aetherblades to return; yet when they had the best chances to do so (Toxic Alliance being implied influenced by Mordremoth but no show during either the Mordrem Invasion weekend or HoT), and Anet's tendency to completely forget about loose plot threads, I doubt we'll see them again.

    @Jeknar.6184 said:
    Considering the Herald of Balthazar said she was converted, I'm assuming the Forged are sentient beings similarly to the Awakened? Or they are actually closer to Dragon Minions?

    Technically they're closest to the Exalted - or the Shiro'ken if you're a GW1 player. They're human souls put into armor and animated by fire magic. And since their free will is stripped from them, they kind of fit as a third parallel to Awakened and dragon minions.

    That said: @ArenaNet, please please stop giving us armies that lack any individual free will. Risen, Mordrem, Forged, Awakened, Branded - I could describe them all with the same paragraph just swapping names and elemental design to them. The only armies we fought that had free will were Scarlet's alliances and White Mantle (the latter was barely a major plot, the former was only partially given that TA and Twisted Watchwork don't fit that description).

    The awakened had (albeit limited) free will even under Joko, they have the full run of it now. I get what you're saying in terms of an army, yes they obeyed Joko but individually they were people when they weren't compelled by orders to do Joko's will.

    As individuals they were indeed a little more nuanced than the average grunt.

    Absent orders from Joko, several leaders took it upon themselves on what to do in a given situation. You have instances of awakened distancing themselves from Joko in order to avoid orders, you have Koss who did malicious compliance. Etc.

  • @CETheLucid.3964 said:
    The awakened had (albeit limited) free will even under Joko, they have the full run of it now. I get what you're saying in terms of an army, yes they obeyed Joko but individually they were people when they weren't compelled by orders to do Joko's will.

    They had individuality, but they all served Joko without question because they couldn't question. Even Koss, the most independent of them all, was forced to obey Joko's words if he heard them. All of them did.

    Dragon minions were similar - the champions had more individuality to them, more personality, but they had to follow their Elder Dragon's will. Same goes for Foefire ghosts, and for Forged. The "more important" ones have more individuality and personality, but they all have the same underlying "no free will" issue.

    Risen gained some form of free will with Zhaitan's death too, furthering that similarity, though the grunts remain as mindless as ever while the Awakened grunts seem to be regaining their former intelligence.

  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Eekasqueak.7850 said:
    You left out Inquest, Joko's loyalists, flame legion, pirates, nightmare court, and the Zintl in HoT. I'm sure there may be others I missed.

    None of those are the "major armies" though. They're not "the focus" of a plot or sub-plot. Joko's loyalists are the closest, but even then, they're a minor sub-fraction and half the time not an enemy at all.

    The major plot enemies are - in order - risen, Scarlet's alliances, mordrem, White Mantle, Forged, Awakened, branded. And of those, even when we deviate away from dragon minions, they're functionally (lorewise) the same just with different aesthetics. Only exception was half of Scarlet's alliances and the White Mantle. 1.5 out of 7.

    I'd argue Joko's loyalists have been as major as the white mantle and the inquest have been more major with them popping up so often in living worlds. I could add mordant crescent too but they're begrudgingly allies as opposed to full on enemies with Joko gone.

  • Arden.7480Arden.7480 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2, 2018

    Does it even matter?

    The thing that surprised me was this very complex chapter with Zafirah, that made me very emotional- the Priest and Priestess of Balthazar thought that with their God they can achieve something glorious. Zafirah said that he changed, that he was not how she remembered him, like it was completely somebody else: "I remember him differently."

    The priests and priestesses can really have the contact with their gods, and Zafirah must have met him before he was chained in the Mists - for example the priestess of Grenth in the end of Personal story summoned Grenth's Avatar to seek Grenth's wisdom in person.

    Also I'm starting to think that Kasmeer was the one that made Kormir stay longer than the Gods, because Kasmeer has always had the strongest connection to her - Kasmeer's ability to detect lies maybe wasn't rooted in Kormir's blessing, but the way Kasmeer cherished the truth, THE Truth must have made Kormir impressed. She stayed only for Kasmeer, and wanted to say personal good bye to her.

    So that's another proof Zafirah had the personal contact with Balthazar, before he was 'abated' and 'dimmed'.

    Also if it wasn't stated that Balthazar was truely Balthazar, If I'd get this line in PoF in the beginning of the story, I'd start to think: maybe it's not Balthazar then... Is it Menzies?

    But not. He was Balthazar, and he failed many of his followers, including Zafirah- poor and desperate soul, full of grief.

    Zafirah got a phenomenal introduction to the story, and I think she and Caithe may find some common believes. Because they both crossed the commander, and the Commander showed them mercy, it must be the thief inside of them that make them so reckless, and how easily they fall for their first thoughts, instead of thought everything out.

    Zafirah and Caithe as the partners in crime? That'd be awesome! :D

    Also to me the words that Kari said in her Behind the Voice vid got another meaning (sorry I am keep relating to it), but Kari said:

    "We never know if she's going to help us or lead us astray. We never know who she's going to love. She's just very very enigmatic"

    EDIT: God, my running out of topic thing is on the loose again! Sorry!

  • dusanyu.4057dusanyu.4057 Member ✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Grand Vizier Utumishi: It is a happy day indeed. Even now, the Awakened forces of the transcendent King Joko are driving out the last of Balthazar's underlings.
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Small_Victory_&28Epilogue&29#Dialogue

    So they didn't die on Balthazar's death, but were quickly routed by the Awakened army after Balthazar's death. The dialogue implies that the focus was on "pushing them out of Elona" rather than "eliminating" them" however, so it's possible that they'll return. But it's also possible for the Toxic Alliance, Molten Alliance, and Aetherblades to return; yet when they had the best chances to do so (Toxic Alliance being implied influenced by Mordremoth but no show during either the Mordrem Invasion weekend or HoT), and Anet's tendency to completely forget about loose plot threads, I doubt we'll see them again.

    Well its not exactly like we can trust anything from Joko or his lackeys. I would not put it past them to say they are driving out the forged even if they actually all went poof after Balthazar died.

  • xoz.2481xoz.2481 Member ✭✭

    That said: @ArenaNet, please please stop giving us armies that lack any individual free will. Risen, Mordrem, Forged, Awakened, Branded - I could describe them all with the same paragraph just swapping names and elemental design to them. The only armies we fought that had free will were Scarlet's alliances and White Mantle (the latter was barely a major plot, the former was only partially given that TA and Twisted Watchwork don't fit that description).

    In my opinion, from a story perspective, the free will distinction only matters if one member of the faction does something against the interests of it's own faction. From what I remember, both Scarlet's alliances and the White Mantle were just as mindlessly fanatical as the other armies, even if they have free will.

  • @Eekasqueak.7850 said:
    I'd argue Joko's loyalists have been as major as the white mantle and the inquest have been more major with them popping up so often in living worlds. I could add mordant crescent too but they're begrudgingly allies as opposed to full on enemies with Joko gone.

    But they're not the focus of the main plot. Joko's loyalists were akin to Balthazar's mercenaries in S3, just a subsidiary force to "the main army"; Inquest too, they're just foes in the environment, like chak in HoT.

    @dusanyu.4057 said:
    Well its not exactly like we can trust anything from Joko or his lackeys. I would not put it past them to say they are driving out the forged even if they actually all went poof after Balthazar died.

    I think in this case we can. Joko and his lackies lie solely in order to make Joko and his reign seem better. There's no real distinction in others view of them whether the Forged were driven out or dropped dead after Balthazar died.

    If Utumishi was lying, then the lie would likely be covering that the Forged still had a prevalent presence in Elona.

  • Aaron Ansari.1604Aaron Ansari.1604 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 2, 2018

    There's also the matter of the Forged being modified Exalted that argues for them surviving Balthazar- the entire purpose of the Exalted was bound up in them outliving their creators.

    On free willed antagonists- for me, personally, the same-y feeling in a lot of these factions is less a matter of do-they-don't-they think for themselves, and more of whether the faction is represented by varied characters, and how fleshed out their backstory is*. Having an army that lacks free will is often a way to rule that out- all of the Risen are functionally one personality with varying levels of eloquence, and by definition whatever they were before has been overridden- but more widely, it's just not something that ANet bothers with often. You could level the same critique at the Flame Legion, or the Sons of Svanir, or the Separatists- nearly every major villainous group, save only the bandits, the Nightmare Court, the dredge, the Awakened, and arguably the Inquest. Everything else amounts an impersonal blob of red names chasing after vaguely defined ideologies and goals that manifest in-game as lashing out at anything within reach that doesn't have a red name. The leaders (when a given faction has one) might get more of a role, but that's inconsistent, too; we have a much clearer idea of Joko as a character than, say, Gaheron.

    *I started writing this post thinking one accompanies the other, but it seems that's not always the case. The White Mantle were, conceptually, one of the most nuanced and developed groups, but the characters they were expressed through in the game were... not.

    R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Arden.7480 said:
    Does it even matter?

    The thing that surprised me was this very complex chapter with Zafirah, that made me very emotional- the Priest and Priestess of Balthazar thought that with their God they can achieve something glorious. Zafirah said that he changed, that he was not how she remembered him, like it was completely somebody else: "I remember him differently."

    The priests and priestesses can really have the contact with their gods, and Zafirah must have met him before he was chained in the Mists - for example the priestess of Grenth in the end of Personal story summoned Grenth's Avatar to seek Grenth's wisdom in person.

    Also I'm starting to think that Kasmeer was the one that made Kormir stay longer than the Gods, because Kasmeer has always had the strongest connection to her - Kasmeer's ability to detect lies maybe wasn't rooted in Kormir's blessing, but the way Kasmeer cherished the truth, THE Truth must have made Kormir impressed. She stayed only for Kasmeer, and wanted to say personal good bye to her.

    So that's another proof Zafirah had the personal contact with Balthazar, before he was 'abated' and 'dimmed'.

    Also if it wasn't stated that Balthazar was truely Balthazar, If I'd get this line in PoF in the beginning of the story, I'd start to think: maybe it's not Balthazar then... Is it Menzies?

    But not. He was Balthazar, and he failed many of his followers, including Zafirah- poor and desperate soul, full of grief.

    Zafirah got a phenomenal introduction to the story, and I think she and Caithe may find some common believes. Because they both crossed the commander, and the Commander showed them mercy, it must be the thief inside of them that make them so reckless, and how easily they fall for their first thoughts, instead of thought everything out.

    Zafirah and Caithe as the partners in crime? That'd be awesome! :D

    Also to me the words that Kari said in her Behind the Voice vid got another meaning (sorry I am keep relating to it), but Kari said:

    "We never know if she's going to help us or lead us astray. We never know who she's going to love. She's just very very enigmatic"

    EDIT: God, my running out of topic thing is on the loose again! Sorry!

    I would like to think that perhaps when Balthazar finally defeated Menzies, that he absorbed his energy and perhaps part of his personality, to some what make Balthazar go down a darker path. That being said Menzies was an ally of Abbadon and could somewhat explain, why Balthazar decisions were similar with Abaddon, if Menzies shared the same goals.

  • Arden.7480Arden.7480 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Maybe Zafirah will shed some light.

    She is still not open for us:
    "the PC: Can I ask you about your past?
    Zafirah: No, you can't."

    Her past is basically also telling about her Priesthood and their worshiping of Balthazar. So that is very interesting. I wonder when she will tell more about her. I guess SOONtm

  • Jimbru.6014Jimbru.6014 Member ✭✭✭

    The name of "The Forged" says it all, really.

    • They were artificially created by Balthazar for the sole purpose of serving him.
    • To steal a religious line, the Forged were made, not begotten. Like the Exalted, the bodies of the Forged were metal constructs animated by magic. In the case of the Forged, the "magic" was souls stolen from the afterlife and dominated by Balthazar, so he was an inherent part of their production and existence.
    • Balthazar is now dead. Without his power to animate them and will to give them purpose, production of Forged has probably stopped, and game dialogue tells us the remaining Forged are being actively hunted, so their population can be expected to decline rapidly.
    • Adding to that: judging by what little game dialogue we hear from the Forged, being a Forged was a tormented existence driven almost entirely by Balthazar's will. Only a few higher ranked Forged, such as the Herald, show any individuality at all. Therefore I consider it likely that many surviving Forged simply destroyed themselves once their master was gone and they were free to do so.

    I also agree with the person talking about the armies of drone servants above; I'm tired of the "vast secret army" trope. It started in LS1 with Scarlet somehow being able to build a world spanning conspiracy with all kinds of giant structures in plain kitten sight. I realize this is a fantasy game and we have to check our disbelief at the door just to be able to log in, but that particular aspect of it has gotten way too repetitive.

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Was it any different in GW1? We had the Dwarves and the White Mantle/Mursaat who were a little bit more layered, but we also had Shiro'ken, Titan, Jade armours, Margonites, Demons, Flame Legion, Afflicted and Destroyers. So the drone army thing is pretty much a staple of the franchise at this point

  • Whether it's a staple and whether we have to like it are two separate issues.

    Then again, whether portion X of the fanbase likes it and whether it's a good idea are also two separate issues- presumably, the work they're saving on the villains is still being put into the game somewhere. ANet's design philosophy these last couple years has seemed to be doubling down on the things they're focused on at the cost of the periphery, and I think that's had some pretty clear benefits for the core portions of the story.

    R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

  • Jeknar.6184Jeknar.6184 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 3, 2018

    Wow, I don't know how we ended speaking about the other groups but I'll toss in my 2 copper anyway.

    I think having the dragon minions as mindless hordes that are moved by the dragon's will is fine. Which mean I'm ok with the behavior for the factions that represent each elder dragon: Risen, Modrem, Destroyers, Icebrood, Branded and whatever the last dragon have in store.

    The 5 evil racial factions: the Bandits, Son's of Svanir, Flame Legion, Nightmare Court and Inquest, are problably only there to represent the evil side of each race. If they didn't exist, one could argueably say there are no evil "inser race here" in the game. They are not intended to be armies for a major enemy, although they did receive their own dungeons (Caudecus Manor, Twilight Arbor, Citadel of Flame, Honor of the Waves and Crucible of Eternity) as a minor plot story for them and still appear about time to time as they are not a mindless army tied to one major enemy.

    That leaves out the Forged and the Awakened. As people pointed out here, The Forged kinda just fit in the category of the Elder Dragon minions as they are a mindless army that serve one higher power (Balthazar). The awakened tho seens to be slaves that regained their free will once their master was gone. That's a first, and hopefully we get to see how this end up in the long run.

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  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Arden.7480 said:
    Does it even matter?

    The thing that surprised me was this very complex chapter with Zafirah, that made me very emotional- the Priest and Priestess of Balthazar thought that with their God they can achieve something glorious. Zafirah said that he changed, that he was not how she remembered him, like it was completely somebody else: "I remember him differently."

    The priests and priestesses can really have the contact with their gods, and Zafirah must have met him before he was chained in the Mists - for example the priestess of Grenth in the end of Personal story summoned Grenth's Avatar to seek Grenth's wisdom in person.

    Also I'm starting to think that Kasmeer was the one that made Kormir stay longer than the Gods, because Kasmeer has always had the strongest connection to her - Kasmeer's ability to detect lies maybe wasn't rooted in Kormir's blessing, but the way Kasmeer cherished the truth, THE Truth must have made Kormir impressed. She stayed only for Kasmeer, and wanted to say personal good bye to her.

    So that's another proof Zafirah had the personal contact with Balthazar, before he was 'abated' and 'dimmed'.

    Also if it wasn't stated that Balthazar was truely Balthazar, If I'd get this line in PoF in the beginning of the story, I'd start to think: maybe it's not Balthazar then... Is it Menzies?

    But not. He was Balthazar, and he failed many of his followers, including Zafirah- poor and desperate soul, full of grief.

    Zafirah got a phenomenal introduction to the story, and I think she and Caithe may find some common believes. Because they both crossed the commander, and the Commander showed them mercy, it must be the thief inside of them that make them so reckless, and how easily they fall for their first thoughts, instead of thought everything out.

    Zafirah and Caithe as the partners in crime? That'd be awesome! :D

    Also to me the words that Kari said in her Behind the Voice vid got another meaning (sorry I am keep relating to it), but Kari said:

    "We never know if she's going to help us or lead us astray. We never know who she's going to love. She's just very very enigmatic"

    EDIT: God, my running out of topic thing is on the loose again! Sorry!

    I would like to think that perhaps when Balthazar finally defeated Menzies, that he absorbed his energy and perhaps part of his personality, to some what make Balthazar go down a darker path. That being said Menzies was an ally of Abbadon and could somewhat explain, why Balthazar decisions were similar with Abaddon, if Menzies shared the same goals.

    Nah.. Balthazar has always been a firebrand God.. He's the God of War after all.
    Makes sense the God of War would have a keen interest in actual war right?
    Honor, power, battle.. these are all things he values and see's greatness in.. likewise he despises cowards.
    There was no way Balthazar was going to tuck his sword between his legs and run away from the most glorious battle in history with foes as powerful as the Elder Dragons.
    His attitude and behavior are pretty much right on the money tbh.. When the Gods decided to leave and not get involved they severely offended the God of War.. it's completely understandable that he would then see them as cowards and decide to go rogue.
    Thier decision to then strip him of his title and divinity was more than enough to push him over the edge and blind him in a relentless rage.

  • @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Arden.7480 said:
    Does it even matter?

    The thing that surprised me was this very complex chapter with Zafirah, that made me very emotional- the Priest and Priestess of Balthazar thought that with their God they can achieve something glorious. Zafirah said that he changed, that he was not how she remembered him, like it was completely somebody else: "I remember him differently."

    The priests and priestesses can really have the contact with their gods, and Zafirah must have met him before he was chained in the Mists - for example the priestess of Grenth in the end of Personal story summoned Grenth's Avatar to seek Grenth's wisdom in person.

    Also I'm starting to think that Kasmeer was the one that made Kormir stay longer than the Gods, because Kasmeer has always had the strongest connection to her - Kasmeer's ability to detect lies maybe wasn't rooted in Kormir's blessing, but the way Kasmeer cherished the truth, THE Truth must have made Kormir impressed. She stayed only for Kasmeer, and wanted to say personal good bye to her.

    So that's another proof Zafirah had the personal contact with Balthazar, before he was 'abated' and 'dimmed'.

    Also if it wasn't stated that Balthazar was truely Balthazar, If I'd get this line in PoF in the beginning of the story, I'd start to think: maybe it's not Balthazar then... Is it Menzies?

    But not. He was Balthazar, and he failed many of his followers, including Zafirah- poor and desperate soul, full of grief.

    Zafirah got a phenomenal introduction to the story, and I think she and Caithe may find some common believes. Because they both crossed the commander, and the Commander showed them mercy, it must be the thief inside of them that make them so reckless, and how easily they fall for their first thoughts, instead of thought everything out.

    Zafirah and Caithe as the partners in crime? That'd be awesome! :D

    Also to me the words that Kari said in her Behind the Voice vid got another meaning (sorry I am keep relating to it), but Kari said:

    "We never know if she's going to help us or lead us astray. We never know who she's going to love. She's just very very enigmatic"

    EDIT: God, my running out of topic thing is on the loose again! Sorry!

    I would like to think that perhaps when Balthazar finally defeated Menzies, that he absorbed his energy and perhaps part of his personality, to some what make Balthazar go down a darker path. That being said Menzies was an ally of Abbadon and could somewhat explain, why Balthazar decisions were similar with Abaddon, if Menzies shared the same goals.

    Nah.. Balthazar has always been a firebrand God.. He's the God of War after all.
    Makes sense the God of War would have a keen interest in actual war right?
    Honor, power, battle.. these are all things he values and see's greatness in.. likewise he despises cowards.
    There was no way Balthazar was going to tuck his sword between his legs and run away from the most glorious battle in history with foes as powerful as the Elder Dragons.
    His attitude and behavior are pretty much right on the money tbh.. When the Gods decided to leave and not get involved they severely offended the God of War.. it's completely understandable that he would then see them as cowards and decide to go rogue.
    Thier decision to then strip him of his title and divinity was more than enough to push him over the edge and blind him in a relentless rage.

    And his being left with the Mirror of Lyssa for centuries made it easy for him to throw away his honor and pride in order to escape from his chains! The Mirror of Lyssa corrupted the imprisoned Balthazar from a principled warmonger into an honorless schemer through it's presence tempting him with means of escape over the centuries.

    Of course being a honorable man until recently Balthazar lacked the intelligence to pull off his second and more elaborate scheme. He should have passed himself off as a Mursaat other than Lazarus the Dire and researched the Mursaat's history to gain better understanding on what he is impersonating in order to better convince the White Mantle to aid him. Since he'd be looking at all Mursaat history he would discover the Mursaat's own desire to fight the Elder Dragons and be given more than enough reason to revive Lazarus himself and secretly let him in on his secret identity!

  • they all probably went on a road trip, after most were souls Balthazar ripped out from underworld and shoved into those armors, not at their own will

    [RIP Fashion Wars 2005-2018]     [TTS] [KA] [SI]     [RIP Fashion Wars 2005-2018]
  • @Arden.7480 said:
    Maybe Zafirah will shed some light.

    She is still not open for us:
    "the PC: Can I ask you about your past?
    Zafirah: No, you can't."

    Her past is basically also telling about her Priesthood and their worshiping of Balthazar. So that is very interesting. I wonder when she will tell more about her. I guess SOONtm

    She has more to her past than priesthood. Talk to Zalambur.

    @Randulf.7614 said:
    Was it any different in GW1? We had the Dwarves and the White Mantle/Mursaat who were a little bit more layered, but we also had Shiro'ken, Titan, Jade armours, Margonites, Demons, Flame Legion, Afflicted and Destroyers. So the drone army thing is pretty much a staple of the franchise at this point

    Titans, Margonites, and demons weren't really "drone army" situations though. While your standard mook didn't present personality (very often), when personality was presented it was as flavored as White Mantle or Stone Summit IMO, even if not all that diverse. Afflicted too, in all honesty; one may remember the quest where a lone Afflicted quietly called out the name of his lover. The Afflicted mooks, when presenting personality, had as much uniquness to it as the Herald of Balthazar at least, rather than your standard mook being a complete copy of the next.

    Jade Constructs, Shiro'ken, and destroyers, yeah, they were your typical "lacking free will mindless army drones". Though at least the Jade Constructs were only 1/3rd of the mursaat army and not actually sapient beings.

    Charr just tended to lack personality until NF where, the first two speaking charr had a massive personality divergence, while those in EotN each had a unique personality when they spoke more than generic aggro lines - you had shamans bartering for survival and would-be allies who refused help from you and chose death instead. Pretty kitten diverse.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭

    @Mickey Frogeater.1470 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Arden.7480 said:
    Does it even matter?

    The thing that surprised me was this very complex chapter with Zafirah, that made me very emotional- the Priest and Priestess of Balthazar thought that with their God they can achieve something glorious. Zafirah said that he changed, that he was not how she remembered him, like it was completely somebody else: "I remember him differently."

    The priests and priestesses can really have the contact with their gods, and Zafirah must have met him before he was chained in the Mists - for example the priestess of Grenth in the end of Personal story summoned Grenth's Avatar to seek Grenth's wisdom in person.

    Also I'm starting to think that Kasmeer was the one that made Kormir stay longer than the Gods, because Kasmeer has always had the strongest connection to her - Kasmeer's ability to detect lies maybe wasn't rooted in Kormir's blessing, but the way Kasmeer cherished the truth, THE Truth must have made Kormir impressed. She stayed only for Kasmeer, and wanted to say personal good bye to her.

    So that's another proof Zafirah had the personal contact with Balthazar, before he was 'abated' and 'dimmed'.

    Also if it wasn't stated that Balthazar was truely Balthazar, If I'd get this line in PoF in the beginning of the story, I'd start to think: maybe it's not Balthazar then... Is it Menzies?

    But not. He was Balthazar, and he failed many of his followers, including Zafirah- poor and desperate soul, full of grief.

    Zafirah got a phenomenal introduction to the story, and I think she and Caithe may find some common believes. Because they both crossed the commander, and the Commander showed them mercy, it must be the thief inside of them that make them so reckless, and how easily they fall for their first thoughts, instead of thought everything out.

    Zafirah and Caithe as the partners in crime? That'd be awesome! :D

    Also to me the words that Kari said in her Behind the Voice vid got another meaning (sorry I am keep relating to it), but Kari said:

    "We never know if she's going to help us or lead us astray. We never know who she's going to love. She's just very very enigmatic"

    EDIT: God, my running out of topic thing is on the loose again! Sorry!

    I would like to think that perhaps when Balthazar finally defeated Menzies, that he absorbed his energy and perhaps part of his personality, to some what make Balthazar go down a darker path. That being said Menzies was an ally of Abbadon and could somewhat explain, why Balthazar decisions were similar with Abaddon, if Menzies shared the same goals.

    Nah.. Balthazar has always been a firebrand God.. He's the God of War after all.
    Makes sense the God of War would have a keen interest in actual war right?
    Honor, power, battle.. these are all things he values and see's greatness in.. likewise he despises cowards.
    There was no way Balthazar was going to tuck his sword between his legs and run away from the most glorious battle in history with foes as powerful as the Elder Dragons.
    His attitude and behavior are pretty much right on the money tbh.. When the Gods decided to leave and not get involved they severely offended the God of War.. it's completely understandable that he would then see them as cowards and decide to go rogue.
    Thier decision to then strip him of his title and divinity was more than enough to push him over the edge and blind him in a relentless rage.

    And his being left with the Mirror of Lyssa for centuries made it easy for him to throw away his honor and pride in order to escape from his chains! The Mirror of Lyssa corrupted the imprisoned Balthazar from a principled warmonger into an honorless schemer through it's presence tempting him with means of escape over the centuries.

    Of course being a honorable man until recently Balthazar lacked the intelligence to pull off his second and more elaborate scheme. He should have passed himself off as a Mursaat other than Lazarus the Dire and researched the Mursaat's history to gain better understanding on what he is impersonating in order to better convince the White Mantle to aid him. Since he'd be looking at all Mursaat history he would discover the Mursaat's own desire to fight the Elder Dragons and be given more than enough reason to revive Lazarus himself and secretly let him in on his secret identity!

    He didn't throw away his honor tbh.. not from his point of view anyway.
    The illusion he created wasn't for our benefit.. as we saw after he was exposed he was able to rally a lot of loyal followers to join his army as well as mercs.
    The illusion was more to hide his presence from the other gods and to keep them thinking he was still safely locked up in the mists.
    He choose to replicate Lazarus purely for strategic purposes I think.. to quickly obtain an army of fanatics who would blindly follow and die for him and Lazarus specifically being the only known Murzaat left.

    Had we not uncovered his real identity it's very likely Balthazar would not have taken the extreme path he did.. he probably would have maintained the facade a lot longer until he was able to convince us to do things his way, He did want us as allies until we betrayed him, though he would have likely betrayed us when it was most beneficial to him.

  • @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Mickey Frogeater.1470 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Arden.7480 said:
    Does it even matter?

    The thing that surprised me was this very complex chapter with Zafirah, that made me very emotional- the Priest and Priestess of Balthazar thought that with their God they can achieve something glorious. Zafirah said that he changed, that he was not how she remembered him, like it was completely somebody else: "I remember him differently."

    The priests and priestesses can really have the contact with their gods, and Zafirah must have met him before he was chained in the Mists - for example the priestess of Grenth in the end of Personal story summoned Grenth's Avatar to seek Grenth's wisdom in person.

    Also I'm starting to think that Kasmeer was the one that made Kormir stay longer than the Gods, because Kasmeer has always had the strongest connection to her - Kasmeer's ability to detect lies maybe wasn't rooted in Kormir's blessing, but the way Kasmeer cherished the truth, THE Truth must have made Kormir impressed. She stayed only for Kasmeer, and wanted to say personal good bye to her.

    So that's another proof Zafirah had the personal contact with Balthazar, before he was 'abated' and 'dimmed'.

    Also if it wasn't stated that Balthazar was truely Balthazar, If I'd get this line in PoF in the beginning of the story, I'd start to think: maybe it's not Balthazar then... Is it Menzies?

    But not. He was Balthazar, and he failed many of his followers, including Zafirah- poor and desperate soul, full of grief.

    Zafirah got a phenomenal introduction to the story, and I think she and Caithe may find some common believes. Because they both crossed the commander, and the Commander showed them mercy, it must be the thief inside of them that make them so reckless, and how easily they fall for their first thoughts, instead of thought everything out.

    Zafirah and Caithe as the partners in crime? That'd be awesome! :D

    Also to me the words that Kari said in her Behind the Voice vid got another meaning (sorry I am keep relating to it), but Kari said:

    "We never know if she's going to help us or lead us astray. We never know who she's going to love. She's just very very enigmatic"

    EDIT: God, my running out of topic thing is on the loose again! Sorry!

    I would like to think that perhaps when Balthazar finally defeated Menzies, that he absorbed his energy and perhaps part of his personality, to some what make Balthazar go down a darker path. That being said Menzies was an ally of Abbadon and could somewhat explain, why Balthazar decisions were similar with Abaddon, if Menzies shared the same goals.

    Nah.. Balthazar has always been a firebrand God.. He's the God of War after all.
    Makes sense the God of War would have a keen interest in actual war right?
    Honor, power, battle.. these are all things he values and see's greatness in.. likewise he despises cowards.
    There was no way Balthazar was going to tuck his sword between his legs and run away from the most glorious battle in history with foes as powerful as the Elder Dragons.
    His attitude and behavior are pretty much right on the money tbh.. When the Gods decided to leave and not get involved they severely offended the God of War.. it's completely understandable that he would then see them as cowards and decide to go rogue.
    Thier decision to then strip him of his title and divinity was more than enough to push him over the edge and blind him in a relentless rage.

    And his being left with the Mirror of Lyssa for centuries made it easy for him to throw away his honor and pride in order to escape from his chains! The Mirror of Lyssa corrupted the imprisoned Balthazar from a principled warmonger into an honorless schemer through it's presence tempting him with means of escape over the centuries.

    Of course being a honorable man until recently Balthazar lacked the intelligence to pull off his second and more elaborate scheme. He should have passed himself off as a Mursaat other than Lazarus the Dire and researched the Mursaat's history to gain better understanding on what he is impersonating in order to better convince the White Mantle to aid him. Since he'd be looking at all Mursaat history he would discover the Mursaat's own desire to fight the Elder Dragons and be given more than enough reason to revive Lazarus himself and secretly let him in on his secret identity!

    He didn't throw away his honor tbh.. not from his point of view anyway.
    The illusion he created wasn't for our benefit.. as we saw after he was exposed he was able to rally a lot of loyal followers to join his army as well as mercs.
    The illusion was more to hide his presence from the other gods and to keep them thinking he was still safely locked up in the mists.
    He choose to replicate Lazarus purely for strategic purposes I think.. to quickly obtain an army of fanatics who would blindly follow and die for him and Lazarus specifically being the only known Murzaat left.

    Had we not uncovered his real identity it's very likely Balthazar would not have taken the extreme path he did.. he probably would have maintained the facade a lot longer until he was able to convince us to do things his way, He did want us as allies until we betrayed him, though he would have likely betrayed us when it was most beneficial to him.

    He probably wouldn't have had the Forged massacring villages, but he would have still willingly caused the destruction of all Tyria. That seems pretty extreme to me.

    In a world where Caudecus didn't tip us off and Taimi didn't build her dragon-killer... I think the most likely result would be Balthazar limiting his interaction with us as much as possible, unless circumstances developed where he absolutely needed the strength of the Pact to secure a kill. We kinda saw that happening already in Flashpoint, with him building his own base and army unilaterally, and much too close to Primordus to bring in reinforcements if things took a bad turn. I'm not sure how he intended to kill the dragon, but he clearly had some kind of plan- maybe that's where the Inquest were supposed to come in. If that plan had worked, the world might've been pushed past the tipping point without our ever seeing 'Lazarus' again after Tarir.

    R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭

    @Aaron Ansari.1604 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Mickey Frogeater.1470 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Arden.7480 said:
    Does it even matter?

    The thing that surprised me was this very complex chapter with Zafirah, that made me very emotional- the Priest and Priestess of Balthazar thought that with their God they can achieve something glorious. Zafirah said that he changed, that he was not how she remembered him, like it was completely somebody else: "I remember him differently."

    The priests and priestesses can really have the contact with their gods, and Zafirah must have met him before he was chained in the Mists - for example the priestess of Grenth in the end of Personal story summoned Grenth's Avatar to seek Grenth's wisdom in person.

    Also I'm starting to think that Kasmeer was the one that made Kormir stay longer than the Gods, because Kasmeer has always had the strongest connection to her - Kasmeer's ability to detect lies maybe wasn't rooted in Kormir's blessing, but the way Kasmeer cherished the truth, THE Truth must have made Kormir impressed. She stayed only for Kasmeer, and wanted to say personal good bye to her.

    So that's another proof Zafirah had the personal contact with Balthazar, before he was 'abated' and 'dimmed'.

    Also if it wasn't stated that Balthazar was truely Balthazar, If I'd get this line in PoF in the beginning of the story, I'd start to think: maybe it's not Balthazar then... Is it Menzies?

    But not. He was Balthazar, and he failed many of his followers, including Zafirah- poor and desperate soul, full of grief.

    Zafirah got a phenomenal introduction to the story, and I think she and Caithe may find some common believes. Because they both crossed the commander, and the Commander showed them mercy, it must be the thief inside of them that make them so reckless, and how easily they fall for their first thoughts, instead of thought everything out.

    Zafirah and Caithe as the partners in crime? That'd be awesome! :D

    Also to me the words that Kari said in her Behind the Voice vid got another meaning (sorry I am keep relating to it), but Kari said:

    "We never know if she's going to help us or lead us astray. We never know who she's going to love. She's just very very enigmatic"

    EDIT: God, my running out of topic thing is on the loose again! Sorry!

    I would like to think that perhaps when Balthazar finally defeated Menzies, that he absorbed his energy and perhaps part of his personality, to some what make Balthazar go down a darker path. That being said Menzies was an ally of Abbadon and could somewhat explain, why Balthazar decisions were similar with Abaddon, if Menzies shared the same goals.

    Nah.. Balthazar has always been a firebrand God.. He's the God of War after all.
    Makes sense the God of War would have a keen interest in actual war right?
    Honor, power, battle.. these are all things he values and see's greatness in.. likewise he despises cowards.
    There was no way Balthazar was going to tuck his sword between his legs and run away from the most glorious battle in history with foes as powerful as the Elder Dragons.
    His attitude and behavior are pretty much right on the money tbh.. When the Gods decided to leave and not get involved they severely offended the God of War.. it's completely understandable that he would then see them as cowards and decide to go rogue.
    Thier decision to then strip him of his title and divinity was more than enough to push him over the edge and blind him in a relentless rage.

    And his being left with the Mirror of Lyssa for centuries made it easy for him to throw away his honor and pride in order to escape from his chains! The Mirror of Lyssa corrupted the imprisoned Balthazar from a principled warmonger into an honorless schemer through it's presence tempting him with means of escape over the centuries.

    Of course being a honorable man until recently Balthazar lacked the intelligence to pull off his second and more elaborate scheme. He should have passed himself off as a Mursaat other than Lazarus the Dire and researched the Mursaat's history to gain better understanding on what he is impersonating in order to better convince the White Mantle to aid him. Since he'd be looking at all Mursaat history he would discover the Mursaat's own desire to fight the Elder Dragons and be given more than enough reason to revive Lazarus himself and secretly let him in on his secret identity!

    He didn't throw away his honor tbh.. not from his point of view anyway.
    The illusion he created wasn't for our benefit.. as we saw after he was exposed he was able to rally a lot of loyal followers to join his army as well as mercs.
    The illusion was more to hide his presence from the other gods and to keep them thinking he was still safely locked up in the mists.
    He choose to replicate Lazarus purely for strategic purposes I think.. to quickly obtain an army of fanatics who would blindly follow and die for him and Lazarus specifically being the only known Murzaat left.

    Had we not uncovered his real identity it's very likely Balthazar would not have taken the extreme path he did.. he probably would have maintained the facade a lot longer until he was able to convince us to do things his way, He did want us as allies until we betrayed him, though he would have likely betrayed us when it was most beneficial to him.

    He probably wouldn't have had the Forged massacring villages, but he would have still willingly caused the destruction of all Tyria. That seems pretty extreme to me.

    In a world where Caudecus didn't tip us off and Taimi didn't build her dragon-killer... I think the most likely result would be Balthazar limiting his interaction with us as much as possible, unless circumstances developed where he absolutely needed the strength of the Pact to secure a kill. We kinda saw that happening already in Flashpoint, with him building his own base and army unilaterally, and much too close to Primordus to bring in reinforcements if things took a bad turn. I'm not sure how he intended to kill the dragon, but he clearly had some kind of plan- maybe that's where the Inquest were supposed to come in. If that plan had worked, the world might've been pushed past the tipping point without our ever seeing 'Lazarus' again after Tarir.

    Yeah but he likely would have tried to convince everyone that it was the best course rather than going full tyrant.
    He may have later revealed himself intentionally to bolster that morale, saying things like those who fight with me will be hailed for all eternity as Tyrias greatest heroes etc.
    He was a god after all so he probably planned something like that eventually, to dupe the world into following him and destroying themselves.
    It did kind of happen after he was exposed too.. many faithful instantly bent the knee to him upon his reveal to the world.. the one god who returned to fight with them while the others fled.
    It was an easy way for him to manipulate people.. it's no wonder so many willingly became Forged.

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