Legendary Fractal Armour - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Legendary Fractal Armour

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  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 4, 2018

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:
    People have mentioned downsides, which are substantial: there would be some disincentive to raid, there would be an influx of people who don't bother to learn how to fractal, hoping to cash in.

    One more downside, that is also important, is that Envoy Armor is not locked just in Raids, it's locked behind Heart of Thorns Raids. You can't get Envoy Armor by running Path of Fire Raids. Adding another PVE version of Legendary Armor (in Core content!) like Fractals is not only going to remove incentive from running Heart of Thorns Raids but also remove incentive from playing (and even buying?) Heart of Thorns in general. While also make it very hard to justify adding another Legendary Armor set in a future expansion, either in future Raids (unlikely) or in any other part of a future expansion.

    They already do this naturally by telling players that Raids are not for everybody and thus stating that Legendary Armor is not for everybody. Which from a marketing stand point is shooting themselves in the foot.

    Um, no. Raids are marketed to a different group of players and the mode has been apparently (according to ANet) more successful than they expected. It draws in and retains players interested in challenging content. The exclusive armor skin is part of the draw.

    There's an existing discussion over whether it's best for the game to attract that niche of players (ANet clearly thinks so; some players clearly disagree) and a separate argument about whether there should be any exclusive rewards (that's a generic question about game design). In the end, however, it's ANet's game and their future that depends on ANet making a good choice. And since they have 10+ years of success at it, I'm inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt that they know better than we do about what will be successful.

    Yes, but what Madd was saying is that if you introduce Fractal Legendary Armor you are telling players not to buy Heart of Thorns because that’s the only current way to get PVE Legendary Armor, through raids. What I’m saying is that they are already telling people that this Armor isn’t for you, if you don’t have the skill for raiding, which in and of itself not really beneficial to entice people to buy Heart of Thorns.

    Just like how so many PvE rewards aren’t for PvP players then (and vice versa)? This isn’t Anet telling people that this isn’t for them but the players doing it to themselves. Everyone has the capacity to get better at raids but they choose not to do so assuming they even try in the first place.

  • Shikaru.7618Shikaru.7618 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 4, 2018

    @Tails.9372 said:
    A legendary set should be a reward that shows a players general dedication to the related content (as it is the case for every currently available legendary armor set) which is why "grind only" should be sufficient.

    A grind option is a available. You can complete escort 150 weeks in a row for the li and grind open world for gold to buy raid kills. Escort is open world difficulty completable by all. It's been 127 weeks since escort was released so only 23 more weeks to go!

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 4, 2018

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:
    People have mentioned downsides, which are substantial: there would be some disincentive to raid, there would be an influx of people who don't bother to learn how to fractal, hoping to cash in.

    One more downside, that is also important, is that Envoy Armor is not locked just in Raids, it's locked behind Heart of Thorns Raids. You can't get Envoy Armor by running Path of Fire Raids. Adding another PVE version of Legendary Armor (in Core content!) like Fractals is not only going to remove incentive from running Heart of Thorns Raids but also remove incentive from playing (and even buying?) Heart of Thorns in general. While also make it very hard to justify adding another Legendary Armor set in a future expansion, either in future Raids (unlikely) or in any other part of a future expansion.

    They already do this naturally by telling players that Raids are not for everybody and thus stating that Legendary Armor is not for everybody. Which from a marketing stand point is shooting themselves in the foot.

    Um, no. Raids are marketed to a different group of players and the mode has been apparently (according to ANet) more successful than they expected. It draws in and retains players interested in challenging content. The exclusive armor skin is part of the draw.

    There's an existing discussion over whether it's best for the game to attract that niche of players (ANet clearly thinks so; some players clearly disagree) and a separate argument about whether there should be any exclusive rewards (that's a generic question about game design). In the end, however, it's ANet's game and their future that depends on ANet making a good choice. And since they have 10+ years of success at it, I'm inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt that they know better than we do about what will be successful.

    Yes, but what Madd was saying is that if you introduce Fractal Legendary Armor you are telling players not to buy Heart of Thorns because that’s the only current way to get PVE Legendary Armor, through raids. What I’m saying is that they are already telling people that this Armor isn’t for you, if you don’t have the skill for raiding, which in and of itself not really beneficial to entice people to buy Heart of Thorns.

    Just saying Legendary PvP armor is also locked behind HoT.
    If they ever introduce Fractals Leg Armor, it would be tied to Masteries I guess, that are impossible to get without expansions

    @Shikaru.7618 said:

    @Tails.9372 said:
    A legendary set should be a reward that shows a players general dedication to the related content (as it is the case for every currently available legendary armor set) which is why "grind only" should be sufficient.

    A grind option is a available. You can complete escort 150 weeks in a row for the li and grind open world for gold to buy raid kills. Escort is open world difficulty completable by all. It's been 127 weeks since escort was released so only 13 more weeks to go!

    that isn't a grind, that is more of cheesing :)

    Va'esse deireádh aep eigean, va'esse eigh faidh'ar

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:
    People have mentioned downsides, which are substantial: there would be some disincentive to raid, there would be an influx of people who don't bother to learn how to fractal, hoping to cash in.

    One more downside, that is also important, is that Envoy Armor is not locked just in Raids, it's locked behind Heart of Thorns Raids. You can't get Envoy Armor by running Path of Fire Raids. Adding another PVE version of Legendary Armor (in Core content!) like Fractals is not only going to remove incentive from running Heart of Thorns Raids but also remove incentive from playing (and even buying?) Heart of Thorns in general. While also make it very hard to justify adding another Legendary Armor set in a future expansion, either in future Raids (unlikely) or in any other part of a future expansion.

    They already do this naturally by telling players that Raids are not for everybody and thus stating that Legendary Armor is not for everybody. Which from a marketing stand point is shooting themselves in the foot.

    Um, no. Raids are marketed to a different group of players and the mode has been apparently (according to ANet) more successful than they expected. It draws in and retains players interested in challenging content. The exclusive armor skin is part of the draw.

    There's an existing discussion over whether it's best for the game to attract that niche of players (ANet clearly thinks so; some players clearly disagree) and a separate argument about whether there should be any exclusive rewards (that's a generic question about game design). In the end, however, it's ANet's game and their future that depends on ANet making a good choice. And since they have 10+ years of success at it, I'm inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt that they know better than we do about what will be successful.

    Yes, but what Madd was saying is that if you introduce Fractal Legendary Armor you are telling players not to buy Heart of Thorns because that’s the only current way to get PVE Legendary Armor, through raids. What I’m saying is that they are already telling people that this Armor isn’t for you, if you don’t have the skill for raiding, which in and of itself not really beneficial to entice people to buy Heart of Thorns.

    Just like how so many PvE rewards aren’t for PvP players then (and vice versa)? This isn’t Anet telling people that this isn’t for them but the players doing it to themselves. Everyone has the capacity to get better at raids but they choose not to do so assuming they even try in the first place.

    I’m pretty sure Anet came out and said that up front. Crystal Reid if I recall.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Sorry Ayrilana, are you for or against Legendary Fractal Armor?

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭

    Fractals, or at least CM's, feel more and more dead, and urgently need a big incentive to bring people back or into that content.
    Additionally I really like the aesthetic of some of the Fractal Weapons, and wanted to have a prestige armour in that style for a long time.

    By making it require the Fractal titles, as high as Fractal God maybe, it would already be the harshest requirement of the Legendary armours, as that is easily 6k gold, so it woulnd't really deter people from getting into Raids for just the legendary armour alone, as it would still be by far the fastest way to earn one.

    So as long as it requires CM completions and at least some investment into the Fractals Titles (at least Prodigy or Champion), I would be all for it.
    Probably not going to happen though.

    Especially CM's, need additional development and/or incentives though, or the player base will just dry up completely.

    "As you know, those who you once called friends have become enemies." ~Glint

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:
    People have mentioned downsides, which are substantial: there would be some disincentive to raid, there would be an influx of people who don't bother to learn how to fractal, hoping to cash in.

    One more downside, that is also important, is that Envoy Armor is not locked just in Raids, it's locked behind Heart of Thorns Raids. You can't get Envoy Armor by running Path of Fire Raids. Adding another PVE version of Legendary Armor (in Core content!) like Fractals is not only going to remove incentive from running Heart of Thorns Raids but also remove incentive from playing (and even buying?) Heart of Thorns in general. While also make it very hard to justify adding another Legendary Armor set in a future expansion, either in future Raids (unlikely) or in any other part of a future expansion.

    They already do this naturally by telling players that Raids are not for everybody and thus stating that Legendary Armor is not for everybody. Which from a marketing stand point is shooting themselves in the foot.

    Um, no. Raids are marketed to a different group of players and the mode has been apparently (according to ANet) more successful than they expected. It draws in and retains players interested in challenging content. The exclusive armor skin is part of the draw.

    There's an existing discussion over whether it's best for the game to attract that niche of players (ANet clearly thinks so; some players clearly disagree) and a separate argument about whether there should be any exclusive rewards (that's a generic question about game design). In the end, however, it's ANet's game and their future that depends on ANet making a good choice. And since they have 10+ years of success at it, I'm inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt that they know better than we do about what will be successful.

    Yes, but what Madd was saying is that if you introduce Fractal Legendary Armor you are telling players not to buy Heart of Thorns because that’s the only current way to get PVE Legendary Armor, through raids. What I’m saying is that they are already telling people that this Armor isn’t for you, if you don’t have the skill for raiding, which in and of itself not really beneficial to entice people to buy Heart of Thorns.

    Just like how so many PvE rewards aren’t for PvP players then (and vice versa)? This isn’t Anet telling people that this isn’t for them but the players doing it to themselves. Everyone has the capacity to get better at raids but they choose not to do so assuming they even try in the first place.

    I’m pretty sure Anet came out and said that up front. Crystal Reid if I recall.

    She said from a skill perspective. That's different.

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Sorry Ayrilana, are you for or against Legendary Fractal Armor?

    Against.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:
    People have mentioned downsides, which are substantial: there would be some disincentive to raid, there would be an influx of people who don't bother to learn how to fractal, hoping to cash in.

    One more downside, that is also important, is that Envoy Armor is not locked just in Raids, it's locked behind Heart of Thorns Raids. You can't get Envoy Armor by running Path of Fire Raids. Adding another PVE version of Legendary Armor (in Core content!) like Fractals is not only going to remove incentive from running Heart of Thorns Raids but also remove incentive from playing (and even buying?) Heart of Thorns in general. While also make it very hard to justify adding another Legendary Armor set in a future expansion, either in future Raids (unlikely) or in any other part of a future expansion.

    They already do this naturally by telling players that Raids are not for everybody and thus stating that Legendary Armor is not for everybody. Which from a marketing stand point is shooting themselves in the foot.

    Um, no. Raids are marketed to a different group of players and the mode has been apparently (according to ANet) more successful than they expected. It draws in and retains players interested in challenging content. The exclusive armor skin is part of the draw.

    There's an existing discussion over whether it's best for the game to attract that niche of players (ANet clearly thinks so; some players clearly disagree) and a separate argument about whether there should be any exclusive rewards (that's a generic question about game design). In the end, however, it's ANet's game and their future that depends on ANet making a good choice. And since they have 10+ years of success at it, I'm inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt that they know better than we do about what will be successful.

    Yes, but what Madd was saying is that if you introduce Fractal Legendary Armor you are telling players not to buy Heart of Thorns because that’s the only current way to get PVE Legendary Armor, through raids. What I’m saying is that they are already telling people that this Armor isn’t for you, if you don’t have the skill for raiding, which in and of itself not really beneficial to entice people to buy Heart of Thorns.

    Just like how so many PvE rewards aren’t for PvP players then (and vice versa)? This isn’t Anet telling people that this isn’t for them but the players doing it to themselves. Everyone has the capacity to get better at raids but they choose not to do so assuming they even try in the first place.

    I’m pretty sure Anet came out and said that up front. Crystal Reid if I recall.

    She said from a skill perspective. That's different.

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Sorry Ayrilana, are you for or against Legendary Fractal Armor?

    Against.

    Because it would take players away from Raiding?

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 5, 2018

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:
    People have mentioned downsides, which are substantial: there would be some disincentive to raid, there would be an influx of people who don't bother to learn how to fractal, hoping to cash in.

    One more downside, that is also important, is that Envoy Armor is not locked just in Raids, it's locked behind Heart of Thorns Raids. You can't get Envoy Armor by running Path of Fire Raids. Adding another PVE version of Legendary Armor (in Core content!) like Fractals is not only going to remove incentive from running Heart of Thorns Raids but also remove incentive from playing (and even buying?) Heart of Thorns in general. While also make it very hard to justify adding another Legendary Armor set in a future expansion, either in future Raids (unlikely) or in any other part of a future expansion.

    They already do this naturally by telling players that Raids are not for everybody and thus stating that Legendary Armor is not for everybody. Which from a marketing stand point is shooting themselves in the foot.

    Um, no. Raids are marketed to a different group of players and the mode has been apparently (according to ANet) more successful than they expected. It draws in and retains players interested in challenging content. The exclusive armor skin is part of the draw.

    There's an existing discussion over whether it's best for the game to attract that niche of players (ANet clearly thinks so; some players clearly disagree) and a separate argument about whether there should be any exclusive rewards (that's a generic question about game design). In the end, however, it's ANet's game and their future that depends on ANet making a good choice. And since they have 10+ years of success at it, I'm inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt that they know better than we do about what will be successful.

    Yes, but what Madd was saying is that if you introduce Fractal Legendary Armor you are telling players not to buy Heart of Thorns because that’s the only current way to get PVE Legendary Armor, through raids. What I’m saying is that they are already telling people that this Armor isn’t for you, if you don’t have the skill for raiding, which in and of itself not really beneficial to entice people to buy Heart of Thorns.

    Just like how so many PvE rewards aren’t for PvP players then (and vice versa)? This isn’t Anet telling people that this isn’t for them but the players doing it to themselves. Everyone has the capacity to get better at raids but they choose not to do so assuming they even try in the first place.

    I’m pretty sure Anet came out and said that up front. Crystal Reid if I recall.

    She said from a skill perspective. That's different.

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Sorry Ayrilana, are you for or against Legendary Fractal Armor?

    Against.

    Because it would take players away from Raiding?

    It would take away those solely doing raids for legendary armor. There’s also no need for another set in the game.

    I’m not against Anet releasing a new armor skin set though such as one that shares the theme of fractal weapons.

    Let’s all be honest here that people are only wanting legendary armor to be obtainable in fractals because they know they can’t get an easy mode in raids so this is the next best thing.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 5, 2018

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:
    People have mentioned downsides, which are substantial: there would be some disincentive to raid, there would be an influx of people who don't bother to learn how to fractal, hoping to cash in.

    One more downside, that is also important, is that Envoy Armor is not locked just in Raids, it's locked behind Heart of Thorns Raids. You can't get Envoy Armor by running Path of Fire Raids. Adding another PVE version of Legendary Armor (in Core content!) like Fractals is not only going to remove incentive from running Heart of Thorns Raids but also remove incentive from playing (and even buying?) Heart of Thorns in general. While also make it very hard to justify adding another Legendary Armor set in a future expansion, either in future Raids (unlikely) or in any other part of a future expansion.

    They already do this naturally by telling players that Raids are not for everybody and thus stating that Legendary Armor is not for everybody. Which from a marketing stand point is shooting themselves in the foot.

    Um, no. Raids are marketed to a different group of players and the mode has been apparently (according to ANet) more successful than they expected. It draws in and retains players interested in challenging content. The exclusive armor skin is part of the draw.

    There's an existing discussion over whether it's best for the game to attract that niche of players (ANet clearly thinks so; some players clearly disagree) and a separate argument about whether there should be any exclusive rewards (that's a generic question about game design). In the end, however, it's ANet's game and their future that depends on ANet making a good choice. And since they have 10+ years of success at it, I'm inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt that they know better than we do about what will be successful.

    Yes, but what Madd was saying is that if you introduce Fractal Legendary Armor you are telling players not to buy Heart of Thorns because that’s the only current way to get PVE Legendary Armor, through raids. What I’m saying is that they are already telling people that this Armor isn’t for you, if you don’t have the skill for raiding, which in and of itself not really beneficial to entice people to buy Heart of Thorns.

    Just like how so many PvE rewards aren’t for PvP players then (and vice versa)? This isn’t Anet telling people that this isn’t for them but the players doing it to themselves. Everyone has the capacity to get better at raids but they choose not to do so assuming they even try in the first place.

    I’m pretty sure Anet came out and said that up front. Crystal Reid if I recall.

    She said from a skill perspective. That's different.

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Sorry Ayrilana, are you for or against Legendary Fractal Armor?

    Against.

    Because it would take players away from Raiding?

    It would take away those solely doing raids for legendary armor. There’s also no need for another set in the game.

    I’m not against Anet releasing a new armor skin set though such as one that shares the theme of fractal weapons.

    Let’s all be honest that people here are wanting legendary armor to be obtainable in fractals because they know they can’t get an easy mode in raids so this is the next best thing.

    Do you think given the choice between Raids and Fractals, if both had Legendary Armor sets, that people would naturally gravitate towards fractals or raids?

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 5, 2018

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:
    People have mentioned downsides, which are substantial: there would be some disincentive to raid, there would be an influx of people who don't bother to learn how to fractal, hoping to cash in.

    One more downside, that is also important, is that Envoy Armor is not locked just in Raids, it's locked behind Heart of Thorns Raids. You can't get Envoy Armor by running Path of Fire Raids. Adding another PVE version of Legendary Armor (in Core content!) like Fractals is not only going to remove incentive from running Heart of Thorns Raids but also remove incentive from playing (and even buying?) Heart of Thorns in general. While also make it very hard to justify adding another Legendary Armor set in a future expansion, either in future Raids (unlikely) or in any other part of a future expansion.

    They already do this naturally by telling players that Raids are not for everybody and thus stating that Legendary Armor is not for everybody. Which from a marketing stand point is shooting themselves in the foot.

    Um, no. Raids are marketed to a different group of players and the mode has been apparently (according to ANet) more successful than they expected. It draws in and retains players interested in challenging content. The exclusive armor skin is part of the draw.

    There's an existing discussion over whether it's best for the game to attract that niche of players (ANet clearly thinks so; some players clearly disagree) and a separate argument about whether there should be any exclusive rewards (that's a generic question about game design). In the end, however, it's ANet's game and their future that depends on ANet making a good choice. And since they have 10+ years of success at it, I'm inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt that they know better than we do about what will be successful.

    Yes, but what Madd was saying is that if you introduce Fractal Legendary Armor you are telling players not to buy Heart of Thorns because that’s the only current way to get PVE Legendary Armor, through raids. What I’m saying is that they are already telling people that this Armor isn’t for you, if you don’t have the skill for raiding, which in and of itself not really beneficial to entice people to buy Heart of Thorns.

    Just like how so many PvE rewards aren’t for PvP players then (and vice versa)? This isn’t Anet telling people that this isn’t for them but the players doing it to themselves. Everyone has the capacity to get better at raids but they choose not to do so assuming they even try in the first place.

    I’m pretty sure Anet came out and said that up front. Crystal Reid if I recall.

    She said from a skill perspective. That's different.

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Sorry Ayrilana, are you for or against Legendary Fractal Armor?

    Against.

    Because it would take players away from Raiding?

    It would take away those solely doing raids for legendary armor. There’s also no need for another set in the game.

    I’m not against Anet releasing a new armor skin set though such as one that shares the theme of fractal weapons.

    Let’s all be honest that people here are wanting legendary armor to be obtainable in fractals because they know they can’t get an easy mode in raids so this is the next best thing.

    Do you think given the choice between Raids and Fractals, if both had Legendary Armor sets, that people would naturally gravity towards fractals or raids?

    Fractals because it would be the next best thing to an easy mode. No different had legendary armor been released to fractals only and then offered for doing core Tyria world bosses. Players would then do core Tyria world bosses because that would be easier.

  • thrag.9740thrag.9740 Member ✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @thrag.9740 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Nah, the main issue is that everyone can attempt to pursue a gen1 legendary weapon. For some it may take years, but they will stil be able to walk on that path. In case of armor though, only raiders (and now PvPers of both modes) can do so.

    I don't think the justification is really true. Players that are willing to spend years working towards legendary equipment always have the option of buying raid kills.

    No. People that can afford to buy a legendary out of their pocket money because they're in a hurry have option of buying raid kills. Those that pursue legendary for extended amount of time by just playing usually don't have that option.

    Do fractal dailies-> acquire 1.5k gold in less than 3 months. Patient players earn more gold per hour than impatient players, because they have the option of doing the efficient daily content for all of their gold. A player that wants to earn 1.5k gold in a week has to resort to less efficient options like open world farms. Your argument that players in a rush can buy raid kills is completely backwards. Patient players are in a much better position to do so.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @thrag.9740 said:
    I've ran the math before on these forums, and if a player is willing to do a weekly clear of escort, spirit woods, and twisted castle, they can buy all other kills they need and get legendary armor in less than a year while only doubling the cost.

    Yes, but they'd still have to raid.

    Spirit woods and twisted castle literally don't have a boss in them, those events are raids in name only. Honestly, have you ever even done these events? I feel like someone who has ever done these events wouldn't pin their whole argument on them technically being considered raids.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Also, they'd need to get past the initial collection gate, which is unrealistic for most of the players. That's a very big threshold to pass.

    I think your misunderstanding my entire point. Buying every kill to do that collection is 1.5k gold last I checked prices. The remaining 130 ish LI can be grinded with 2 or 3 weekly events that award LI, 2 of which don't have a boss at all, and have a near zero chance of failure. So again, I will repeat myself, by doubling the cost of legendary armor, you can get legendary armor without ever killing a raid boss. A factor of 2. We are not talking orders of magnitude. Buying raid kills is perceived as expensive because players incorrectly think they need to buy 150 kills. But getting raid armor without raiding only takes twice as much money as getting the raid armor with raiding.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:
    People have mentioned downsides, which are substantial: there would be some disincentive to raid, there would be an influx of people who don't bother to learn how to fractal, hoping to cash in.

    One more downside, that is also important, is that Envoy Armor is not locked just in Raids, it's locked behind Heart of Thorns Raids. You can't get Envoy Armor by running Path of Fire Raids. Adding another PVE version of Legendary Armor (in Core content!) like Fractals is not only going to remove incentive from running Heart of Thorns Raids but also remove incentive from playing (and even buying?) Heart of Thorns in general. While also make it very hard to justify adding another Legendary Armor set in a future expansion, either in future Raids (unlikely) or in any other part of a future expansion.

    They already do this naturally by telling players that Raids are not for everybody and thus stating that Legendary Armor is not for everybody. Which from a marketing stand point is shooting themselves in the foot.

    Um, no. Raids are marketed to a different group of players and the mode has been apparently (according to ANet) more successful than they expected. It draws in and retains players interested in challenging content. The exclusive armor skin is part of the draw.

    There's an existing discussion over whether it's best for the game to attract that niche of players (ANet clearly thinks so; some players clearly disagree) and a separate argument about whether there should be any exclusive rewards (that's a generic question about game design). In the end, however, it's ANet's game and their future that depends on ANet making a good choice. And since they have 10+ years of success at it, I'm inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt that they know better than we do about what will be successful.

    Yes, but what Madd was saying is that if you introduce Fractal Legendary Armor you are telling players not to buy Heart of Thorns because that’s the only current way to get PVE Legendary Armor, through raids. What I’m saying is that they are already telling people that this Armor isn’t for you, if you don’t have the skill for raiding, which in and of itself not really beneficial to entice people to buy Heart of Thorns.

    Just like how so many PvE rewards aren’t for PvP players then (and vice versa)? This isn’t Anet telling people that this isn’t for them but the players doing it to themselves. Everyone has the capacity to get better at raids but they choose not to do so assuming they even try in the first place.

    I’m pretty sure Anet came out and said that up front. Crystal Reid if I recall.

    She said from a skill perspective. That's different.

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Sorry Ayrilana, are you for or against Legendary Fractal Armor?

    Against.

    Because it would take players away from Raiding?

    It would take away those solely doing raids for legendary armor. There’s also no need for another set in the game.

    I’m not against Anet releasing a new armor skin set though such as one that shares the theme of fractal weapons.

    Let’s all be honest here that people are only wanting legendary armor to be obtainable in fractals because they know they can’t get an easy mode in raids so this is the next best thing.

    I already have Legendary Armor, so this isn’t a selfish act to push my own agenda.

    I think there might be people that like doing Fractals, but perhaps don’t like raids. Maybe they find fractals more accessible, I don’t know. What I am an advocate for is choice and options. Just like the Sigil of Nullification, buy off the tp or craft yourself. I honestly think adding a Legendary Fractal would be a good option for those Fractal enthusiasts and those that want Legendary Armor, but don’t want to Raid.

    I’m not sure why raiders would feel threatened by another unique set of Legendary Armor in a completely different pve game type. Unless they feel that Raids are simply so shallow that if introduced, Raids would somehow collapse and not be completed. That’s kinda what it sounds like to me.

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:
    People have mentioned downsides, which are substantial: there would be some disincentive to raid, there would be an influx of people who don't bother to learn how to fractal, hoping to cash in.

    One more downside, that is also important, is that Envoy Armor is not locked just in Raids, it's locked behind Heart of Thorns Raids. You can't get Envoy Armor by running Path of Fire Raids. Adding another PVE version of Legendary Armor (in Core content!) like Fractals is not only going to remove incentive from running Heart of Thorns Raids but also remove incentive from playing (and even buying?) Heart of Thorns in general. While also make it very hard to justify adding another Legendary Armor set in a future expansion, either in future Raids (unlikely) or in any other part of a future expansion.

    They already do this naturally by telling players that Raids are not for everybody and thus stating that Legendary Armor is not for everybody. Which from a marketing stand point is shooting themselves in the foot.

    Um, no. Raids are marketed to a different group of players and the mode has been apparently (according to ANet) more successful than they expected. It draws in and retains players interested in challenging content. The exclusive armor skin is part of the draw.

    There's an existing discussion over whether it's best for the game to attract that niche of players (ANet clearly thinks so; some players clearly disagree) and a separate argument about whether there should be any exclusive rewards (that's a generic question about game design). In the end, however, it's ANet's game and their future that depends on ANet making a good choice. And since they have 10+ years of success at it, I'm inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt that they know better than we do about what will be successful.

    Yes, but what Madd was saying is that if you introduce Fractal Legendary Armor you are telling players not to buy Heart of Thorns because that’s the only current way to get PVE Legendary Armor, through raids. What I’m saying is that they are already telling people that this Armor isn’t for you, if you don’t have the skill for raiding, which in and of itself not really beneficial to entice people to buy Heart of Thorns.

    Just like how so many PvE rewards aren’t for PvP players then (and vice versa)? This isn’t Anet telling people that this isn’t for them but the players doing it to themselves. Everyone has the capacity to get better at raids but they choose not to do so assuming they even try in the first place.

    I’m pretty sure Anet came out and said that up front. Crystal Reid if I recall.

    She said from a skill perspective. That's different.

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Sorry Ayrilana, are you for or against Legendary Fractal Armor?

    Against.

    Because it would take players away from Raiding?

    It would take away those solely doing raids for legendary armor. There’s also no need for another set in the game.

    I’m not against Anet releasing a new armor skin set though such as one that shares the theme of fractal weapons.

    Let’s all be honest that people here are wanting legendary armor to be obtainable in fractals because they know they can’t get an easy mode in raids so this is the next best thing.

    Do you think given the choice between Raids and Fractals, if both had Legendary Armor sets, that people would naturally gravity towards fractals or raids?

    Fractals because it would be the next best thing to an easy mode. No different had legendary armor been released to fractals only and then offered for doing core Tyria world bosses. Players would then do core Tyria world bosses because that would be easier.

    Won't it make clear who is there to raid and enjoy the content and who is there to farm legendary armor?
    And again wvw/pvp legendary armors are way ahead of it.

    Va'esse deireádh aep eigean, va'esse eigh faidh'ar

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @phs.6089 said:
    Just saying Legendary PvP armor is also locked behind HoT.

    It's not locked behind HoT, it's locked behind any expansion, current and future one. Envoy armor is locked specifically behind HoT.

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 5, 2018

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @phs.6089 said:
    Just saying Legendary PvP armor is also locked behind HoT.

    It's not locked behind HoT, it's locked behind any expansion, current and future one. Envoy armor is locked specifically behind HoT.

    Sadly it is. I have an alt with PoF only, would you like some screenshots?
    You can get precursor armor but those need HoT https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Gift_of_Competitive_Dedication

    Va'esse deireádh aep eigean, va'esse eigh faidh'ar

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @phs.6089 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @phs.6089 said:
    Just saying Legendary PvP armor is also locked behind HoT.

    It's not locked behind HoT, it's locked behind any expansion, current and future one. Envoy armor is locked specifically behind HoT.

    Sadly it is. I have an alt with PoF only, would you like some screenshots?

    Which part of it can't you buy without HoT?

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @phs.6089 said:
    Just saying Legendary PvP armor is also locked behind HoT.

    It's not locked behind HoT, it's locked behind any expansion, current and future one. Envoy armor is locked specifically behind HoT.

    Sadly it is. I have an alt with PoF only, would you like some screenshots?

    Which part of it can't you buy without HoT?

    https://imgur.com/a/Al7DO8I

    Va'esse deireádh aep eigean, va'esse eigh faidh'ar

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @phs.6089 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @phs.6089 said:
    Just saying Legendary PvP armor is also locked behind HoT.

    It's not locked behind HoT, it's locked behind any expansion, current and future one. Envoy armor is locked specifically behind HoT.

    Sadly it is. I have an alt with PoF only, would you like some screenshots?

    Which part of it can't you buy without HoT?

    https://imgur.com/a/Al7DO8I

    Well that's a good thing and I honestly didn't know that and there is nothing on the wiki about it. So scratch the "it will remove incentives for HoT" argument, provided the proposed fractal armor does the same. Moving on!

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @phs.6089 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @phs.6089 said:
    Just saying Legendary PvP armor is also locked behind HoT.

    It's not locked behind HoT, it's locked behind any expansion, current and future one. Envoy armor is locked specifically behind HoT.

    Sadly it is. I have an alt with PoF only, would you like some screenshots?

    Which part of it can't you buy without HoT?

    https://imgur.com/a/Al7DO8I

    Is that also the same for the WvW too?

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 5, 2018

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @phs.6089 said:
    Just saying Legendary PvP armor is also locked behind HoT.

    It's not locked behind HoT, it's locked behind any expansion, current and future one. Envoy armor is locked specifically behind HoT.

    Sadly it is. I have an alt with PoF only, would you like some screenshots?

    Which part of it can't you buy without HoT?

    https://imgur.com/a/Al7DO8I

    Is that also the same for the WvW too?

    Prolly I don't wvw and know very little of it. But given not shiny wvw legendary was added with pvp one, should be same.

    Va'esse deireádh aep eigean, va'esse eigh faidh'ar

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @phs.6089 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @phs.6089 said:
    Just saying Legendary PvP armor is also locked behind HoT.

    It's not locked behind HoT, it's locked behind any expansion, current and future one. Envoy armor is locked specifically behind HoT.

    Sadly it is. I have an alt with PoF only, would you like some screenshots?

    Which part of it can't you buy without HoT?

    https://imgur.com/a/Al7DO8I

    Is that also the same for the WvW too?

    Prolly I don't wvw and know very little of it. But given not shiny wvw legendary was added with pvp one, should be same.

    I would assume the components of the gift of war dedication are also locked. Good to know. Fractal Armor would likely require a gift of Fractal dedication, which they could lock behind Heart of Thorns. Done and done.

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @phs.6089 said:
    Just saying Legendary PvP armor is also locked behind HoT.

    It's not locked behind HoT, it's locked behind any expansion, current and future one. Envoy armor is locked specifically behind HoT.

    Sadly it is. I have an alt with PoF only, would you like some screenshots?

    Which part of it can't you buy without HoT?

    https://imgur.com/a/Al7DO8I

    Is that also the same for the WvW too?

    Prolly I don't wvw and know very little of it. But given not shiny wvw legendary was added with pvp one, should be same.

    I would assume the components of the gift of war dedication are also locked. Good to know. Fractal Armor would likely require a gift of Fractal dedication, which they could lock behind Heart of Thorns. Done and done.

    Just went to visit Warmaster Razor on PoF account, for science. It's same for WvW. Legendary parts are for HoT only.

    Va'esse deireádh aep eigean, va'esse eigh faidh'ar

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 5, 2018

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Sorry Ayrilana, are you for or against Legendary Fractal Armor?

    Against.

    Because it would take players away from Raiding?

    If you haven't noticed yet, Ayrilana is always against anything that changes the current status quo. So, now it's against fractal armor, but if Anet decided to implement it tomorrow, we'd hear a resounding defence of it instead.

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    Let’s all be honest here that people are only wanting legendary armor to be obtainable in fractals because they know they can’t get an easy mode in raids so this is the next best thing.

    I have my envoy set already, thank you very much. It didn't change my position on raids and legendary armor exclusivity even a little bit.

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    I’m not sure why raiders would feel threatened by another unique set of Legendary Armor in a completely different pve game type. Unless they feel that Raids are simply so shallow that if introduced, Raids would somehow collapse and not be completed. That’s kinda what it sounds like to me.

    That's how it sounds to me as well. It does seem like many raiders feel that there aren't all that many players that are interested in raids themselves, and they are being sustained only due to the people that came there to farm exclusives (and if those players were given any other option, the "true raiders" would end up alone in a mostly abandoned content).

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • sigur.9453sigur.9453 Member ✭✭✭

    just a quick thought.
    would fractal legendary have the same "issues" like the raid on? i mean IF they would do that, you can be 100% sure to include some amount of CM participation or even LNHB title for such an item? wouldn´t the same people have a problem by getting it? the overlap of people doing fraktal cm & raids is pretty high i guess (no data here, only assuming). not even mentioning the already realy good rewards you get from fractals. (arguable more gold then raids + asc. items). it would be "fairer" to pin it to dungeons (not that i think they would do even that). or hell, open world with endless participation grind if people want that.

  • Tails.9372Tails.9372 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 5, 2018

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    It would take away those solely doing raids for legendary armor.

    Not entirely, sure you would lose some people (those who don't like the content to begin with) but people are asking for fractals to get its own legendary armor set, not to add the Envoy set to other content. You would still have to raid if you want to have the raid set.

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    There’s also no need for another set in the game.

    There is no "need" for anything but that's not really an argument as it says nothing about whether or not having it is a good thing. There's no "need" for mounts either but people generally seem to like them so it's safe to say that their inclusion was a good thing.

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    Let’s all be honest here that people are only wanting legendary armor to be obtainable in fractals because they know they can’t get an easy mode in raids so this is the next best thing.

    That's quite a presumptuous thing to say and I don't see any evidence that backs up this claim, this seems like a cheap way to dismiss anyone who holds a different opinion. Also, the "next best thing" would be the WvW set as it only requires you to grind content on the same difficulty level as the stuff from the OW starting areas.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @sigur.9453 said:
    just a quick thought.
    would fractal legendary have the same "issues" like the raid on? i mean IF they would do that, you can be 100% sure to include some amount of CM participation or even LNHB title for such an item?

    Why? Raid armor does not require raid CMs, after all. And for a good reason.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • sigur.9453sigur.9453 Member ✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @sigur.9453 said:
    just a quick thought.
    would fractal legendary have the same "issues" like the raid on? i mean IF they would do that, you can be 100% sure to include some amount of CM participation or even LNHB title for such an item?

    Why? Raid armor does not require raid CMs, after all. And for a good reason.

    good point, haven´t thought of that. although not missing green on cairn can be a cm for some people ;)

  • Henry.5713Henry.5713 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The only true difference is that they would not require you to group with nine others, just four others, and that there would be less need to be part of a static group as Fractals is more pug friendly. The real barriers of entry people can't cross, or more truthfully don't want to cross, would remain the same. This armor would still require some dedication and a good level of personal play to be acquired.
    Unless ArenaNet did indeed exclude CMs from the list and possibly even limit the amount of T4s you would have to completely to a one-time thing while allowing you to stick to the lower levels mostly. This would certainly remove the personal play part and even the need to group with others for a big chunk of your grind but one has to wonder why even use Fracatals in the first place then. They might as well go the Open World grind route then.

    Progress isn't made by early risers. It's made by lazy men trying to find easier ways to do something. ~ Robert Heinlein

  • Shivvies.3921Shivvies.3921 Member ✭✭✭

    @sigur.9453 said:
    just a quick thought.
    would fractal legendary have the same "issues" like the raid on? i mean IF they would do that, you can be 100% sure to include some amount of CM participation or even LNHB title for such an item? wouldn´t the same people have a problem by getting it? the overlap of people doing fraktal cm & raids is pretty high i guess (no data here, only assuming). not even mentioning the already realy good rewards you get from fractals. (arguable more gold then raids + asc. items). it would be "fairer" to pin it to dungeons (not that i think they would do even that). or hell, open world with endless participation grind if people want that.

    I started doing fractals seriously pretty recently and already can complete CM99 pretty routinely and CM100 Arkk is going to happen soon - we just had like 3 sessions of tries without watching guides or anything and we only have 2 very hardcore players with rest being slow, old people who play casually.

    Raids, on the other hand, require a lot more people to be on at the same time and willing to put in the work. I'm sure I could be a passable raider but I am not becaus I don't have a group who I imagine to be willing to put up with me learning very very very slowly.

    It is not the content's difficulty per se but the difficulty of finding 5 MORE likeminded peeps.

    So I'm pretty sure the venn diagram intersection of people CM'ing and Raiding would be much much smaller than one would think.

    Cheers!

  • Tails.9372Tails.9372 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 5, 2018

    @Henry.5713 said:
    Unless ArenaNet did indeed exclude CMs from the list and possibly even limit the amount of T4s you would have to completely to a one-time thing while allowing you to stick to the lower levels mostly.

    But this wouldn't remove any of the "real barriers" either because (despite what some people would want to make you believe) it's not really about "skill" or "difficulty". It never was, it never will be. It's about the content itself. Low level fractals are easy AF and yet people are more willing to engage with more difficult OW content. It takes less "skill" to acquire the legendary WvW set than Aurora and yet the later one seems to be a lot more common.

    @Henry.5713 said:
    one has to wonder why even use Fracatals in the first place then. They might as well go the Open World grind route then

    Because the style of content is inherently different. Ideally both fractals and OW PvM should get their own legendary armor sets.

  • Henry.5713Henry.5713 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 5, 2018

    @Tails.9372 said:

    @Henry.5713 said:
    Unless ArenaNet did indeed exclude CMs from the list and possibly even limit the amount of T4s you would have to completely to a one-time thing while allowing you to stick to the lower levels mostly.

    But this wouldn't remove any of the "real barriers" either because (despite what some people would want to make you believe) it's not really about "skill" or "difficulty". It never was, it never will be. Low level fractals are easy AF and yet people are more willing to engage with more difficult OW content. It takes less "skill" to acquire the legendary WvW set then Aurora and yet the later one seems to be a lot more common.

    @Henry.5713 said:
    one has to wonder why even use Fracatals in the first place then. They might as well go the Open World grind route then

    Because the style of content is inherently different. Ideally both fractals and OW PvM should get their own legendary armor sets.

    Please enlighten me on those "real barriers" then and I certainly wouldn't say every single piece of the vast amount of different PvE content needs it's own unique and exclusive legendary armor set. The current set requires a lot of PvE outside of raids which already makes them the "PvE legnedary armor" just like there is a PvP and a WvW version. On I similar note, I don't believe in adding another round of legendary weapons exclusive to raids or any other niche PvE content either, just so people do not have to run OW content.

    Progress isn't made by early risers. It's made by lazy men trying to find easier ways to do something. ~ Robert Heinlein

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @phs.6089 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @phs.6089 said:
    Just saying Legendary PvP armor is also locked behind HoT.

    It's not locked behind HoT, it's locked behind any expansion, current and future one. Envoy armor is locked specifically behind HoT.

    Sadly it is. I have an alt with PoF only, would you like some screenshots?

    Which part of it can't you buy without HoT?

    https://imgur.com/a/Al7DO8I

    Is that also the same for the WvW too?

    Prolly I don't wvw and know very little of it. But given not shiny wvw legendary was added with pvp one, should be same.

    I would assume the components of the gift of war dedication are also locked. Good to know. Fractal Armor would likely require a gift of Fractal dedication, which they could lock behind Heart of Thorns. Done and done.

    Just went to visit Warmaster Razor on PoF account, for science. It's same for WvW. Legendary parts are for HoT only.

    Thanks Phs, these things are good to know!

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I don't understand why people are against it. Game is locked on ascended stats, there isn't anything better. Legendary gear are
    1. convenient items.
    2. bragging rights.

    Legendary armor from fractals and hell even OW will keep people busy in a game with no gearmill.
    Will it take players from raids? It might but it will take those that are there to farm(!) not play and morally support the content.
    They will leave anyway.
    Will other legendary sets take away the bragging rights of having Envoy? No they won't.

    I can only see positive sides of adding more legendary armor sets. Mat sinks and added playtime, additional goals for players.
    Would any raider be agaist to get second leg set from fractals for alt that wears other weight armor then main? I don't think so.
    So what is the deal?

    /// Before anyone attempts to say I want it for myself. I play spvp 5th season have enough tickets and shards for set and half. But I learned that is quicker to switch character, then change stats/sigils/runes/traits. I'm not making any leg armor :) I better make another character if I feel i need more then 2 mesmers , 2 guards and now 2 necros.

    Va'esse deireádh aep eigean, va'esse eigh faidh'ar

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @phs.6089 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:
    People have mentioned downsides, which are substantial: there would be some disincentive to raid, there would be an influx of people who don't bother to learn how to fractal, hoping to cash in.

    One more downside, that is also important, is that Envoy Armor is not locked just in Raids, it's locked behind Heart of Thorns Raids. You can't get Envoy Armor by running Path of Fire Raids. Adding another PVE version of Legendary Armor (in Core content!) like Fractals is not only going to remove incentive from running Heart of Thorns Raids but also remove incentive from playing (and even buying?) Heart of Thorns in general. While also make it very hard to justify adding another Legendary Armor set in a future expansion, either in future Raids (unlikely) or in any other part of a future expansion.

    They already do this naturally by telling players that Raids are not for everybody and thus stating that Legendary Armor is not for everybody. Which from a marketing stand point is shooting themselves in the foot.

    Um, no. Raids are marketed to a different group of players and the mode has been apparently (according to ANet) more successful than they expected. It draws in and retains players interested in challenging content. The exclusive armor skin is part of the draw.

    There's an existing discussion over whether it's best for the game to attract that niche of players (ANet clearly thinks so; some players clearly disagree) and a separate argument about whether there should be any exclusive rewards (that's a generic question about game design). In the end, however, it's ANet's game and their future that depends on ANet making a good choice. And since they have 10+ years of success at it, I'm inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt that they know better than we do about what will be successful.

    Yes, but what Madd was saying is that if you introduce Fractal Legendary Armor you are telling players not to buy Heart of Thorns because that’s the only current way to get PVE Legendary Armor, through raids. What I’m saying is that they are already telling people that this Armor isn’t for you, if you don’t have the skill for raiding, which in and of itself not really beneficial to entice people to buy Heart of Thorns.

    Just like how so many PvE rewards aren’t for PvP players then (and vice versa)? This isn’t Anet telling people that this isn’t for them but the players doing it to themselves. Everyone has the capacity to get better at raids but they choose not to do so assuming they even try in the first place.

    I’m pretty sure Anet came out and said that up front. Crystal Reid if I recall.

    She said from a skill perspective. That's different.

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Sorry Ayrilana, are you for or against Legendary Fractal Armor?

    Against.

    Because it would take players away from Raiding?

    It would take away those solely doing raids for legendary armor. There’s also no need for another set in the game.

    I’m not against Anet releasing a new armor skin set though such as one that shares the theme of fractal weapons.

    Let’s all be honest that people here are wanting legendary armor to be obtainable in fractals because they know they can’t get an easy mode in raids so this is the next best thing.

    Do you think given the choice between Raids and Fractals, if both had Legendary Armor sets, that people would naturally gravity towards fractals or raids?

    Fractals because it would be the next best thing to an easy mode. No different had legendary armor been released to fractals only and then offered for doing core Tyria world bosses. Players would then do core Tyria world bosses because that would be easier.

    Won't it make clear who is there to raid and enjoy the content and who is there to farm legendary armor?
    And again wvw/pvp legendary armors are way ahead of it.

    Remove all rewards from the game. Wont it make it clear who is there to play and enjoy the content and who is there to earn rewards?

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 5, 2018

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:
    People have mentioned downsides, which are substantial: there would be some disincentive to raid, there would be an influx of people who don't bother to learn how to fractal, hoping to cash in.

    One more downside, that is also important, is that Envoy Armor is not locked just in Raids, it's locked behind Heart of Thorns Raids. You can't get Envoy Armor by running Path of Fire Raids. Adding another PVE version of Legendary Armor (in Core content!) like Fractals is not only going to remove incentive from running Heart of Thorns Raids but also remove incentive from playing (and even buying?) Heart of Thorns in general. While also make it very hard to justify adding another Legendary Armor set in a future expansion, either in future Raids (unlikely) or in any other part of a future expansion.

    They already do this naturally by telling players that Raids are not for everybody and thus stating that Legendary Armor is not for everybody. Which from a marketing stand point is shooting themselves in the foot.

    Um, no. Raids are marketed to a different group of players and the mode has been apparently (according to ANet) more successful than they expected. It draws in and retains players interested in challenging content. The exclusive armor skin is part of the draw.

    There's an existing discussion over whether it's best for the game to attract that niche of players (ANet clearly thinks so; some players clearly disagree) and a separate argument about whether there should be any exclusive rewards (that's a generic question about game design). In the end, however, it's ANet's game and their future that depends on ANet making a good choice. And since they have 10+ years of success at it, I'm inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt that they know better than we do about what will be successful.

    Yes, but what Madd was saying is that if you introduce Fractal Legendary Armor you are telling players not to buy Heart of Thorns because that’s the only current way to get PVE Legendary Armor, through raids. What I’m saying is that they are already telling people that this Armor isn’t for you, if you don’t have the skill for raiding, which in and of itself not really beneficial to entice people to buy Heart of Thorns.

    Just like how so many PvE rewards aren’t for PvP players then (and vice versa)? This isn’t Anet telling people that this isn’t for them but the players doing it to themselves. Everyone has the capacity to get better at raids but they choose not to do so assuming they even try in the first place.

    I’m pretty sure Anet came out and said that up front. Crystal Reid if I recall.

    She said from a skill perspective. That's different.

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Sorry Ayrilana, are you for or against Legendary Fractal Armor?

    Against.

    Because it would take players away from Raiding?

    It would take away those solely doing raids for legendary armor. There’s also no need for another set in the game.

    I’m not against Anet releasing a new armor skin set though such as one that shares the theme of fractal weapons.

    Let’s all be honest that people here are wanting legendary armor to be obtainable in fractals because they know they can’t get an easy mode in raids so this is the next best thing.

    Do you think given the choice between Raids and Fractals, if both had Legendary Armor sets, that people would naturally gravity towards fractals or raids?

    Fractals because it would be the next best thing to an easy mode. No different had legendary armor been released to fractals only and then offered for doing core Tyria world bosses. Players would then do core Tyria world bosses because that would be easier.

    Won't it make clear who is there to raid and enjoy the content and who is there to farm legendary armor?
    And again wvw/pvp legendary armors are way ahead of it.

    Remove all rewards from the game. Wont it make it clear who is there to play and enjoy the content and who is there to earn rewards?

    We are not talking of removal, we are talking of adding reward, please don't twist my words.

    Va'esse deireádh aep eigean, va'esse eigh faidh'ar

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @phs.6089 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:
    People have mentioned downsides, which are substantial: there would be some disincentive to raid, there would be an influx of people who don't bother to learn how to fractal, hoping to cash in.

    One more downside, that is also important, is that Envoy Armor is not locked just in Raids, it's locked behind Heart of Thorns Raids. You can't get Envoy Armor by running Path of Fire Raids. Adding another PVE version of Legendary Armor (in Core content!) like Fractals is not only going to remove incentive from running Heart of Thorns Raids but also remove incentive from playing (and even buying?) Heart of Thorns in general. While also make it very hard to justify adding another Legendary Armor set in a future expansion, either in future Raids (unlikely) or in any other part of a future expansion.

    They already do this naturally by telling players that Raids are not for everybody and thus stating that Legendary Armor is not for everybody. Which from a marketing stand point is shooting themselves in the foot.

    Um, no. Raids are marketed to a different group of players and the mode has been apparently (according to ANet) more successful than they expected. It draws in and retains players interested in challenging content. The exclusive armor skin is part of the draw.

    There's an existing discussion over whether it's best for the game to attract that niche of players (ANet clearly thinks so; some players clearly disagree) and a separate argument about whether there should be any exclusive rewards (that's a generic question about game design). In the end, however, it's ANet's game and their future that depends on ANet making a good choice. And since they have 10+ years of success at it, I'm inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt that they know better than we do about what will be successful.

    Yes, but what Madd was saying is that if you introduce Fractal Legendary Armor you are telling players not to buy Heart of Thorns because that’s the only current way to get PVE Legendary Armor, through raids. What I’m saying is that they are already telling people that this Armor isn’t for you, if you don’t have the skill for raiding, which in and of itself not really beneficial to entice people to buy Heart of Thorns.

    Just like how so many PvE rewards aren’t for PvP players then (and vice versa)? This isn’t Anet telling people that this isn’t for them but the players doing it to themselves. Everyone has the capacity to get better at raids but they choose not to do so assuming they even try in the first place.

    I’m pretty sure Anet came out and said that up front. Crystal Reid if I recall.

    She said from a skill perspective. That's different.

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Sorry Ayrilana, are you for or against Legendary Fractal Armor?

    Against.

    Because it would take players away from Raiding?

    It would take away those solely doing raids for legendary armor. There’s also no need for another set in the game.

    I’m not against Anet releasing a new armor skin set though such as one that shares the theme of fractal weapons.

    Let’s all be honest that people here are wanting legendary armor to be obtainable in fractals because they know they can’t get an easy mode in raids so this is the next best thing.

    Do you think given the choice between Raids and Fractals, if both had Legendary Armor sets, that people would naturally gravity towards fractals or raids?

    Fractals because it would be the next best thing to an easy mode. No different had legendary armor been released to fractals only and then offered for doing core Tyria world bosses. Players would then do core Tyria world bosses because that would be easier.

    Won't it make clear who is there to raid and enjoy the content and who is there to farm legendary armor?
    And again wvw/pvp legendary armors are way ahead of it.

    Remove all rewards from the game. Wont it make it clear who is there to play and enjoy the content and who is there to earn rewards?

    We are not talking of removal, we are talking of adding reward, please don't twist my words.

    I wasn’t twisting your words as I never said that you suggested that.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    Remove all rewards from the game. Wont it make it clear who is there to play and enjoy the content and who is there to earn rewards?

    Primary reason for the game is to make money for Anet. Thus, if there are people that are in this game only for rewards, without actually enjoying it, it's okay. If they enjoyed it it would be better, of course, but as long as they don't quit that is also fine, i guess.

    Now, that is about the game as a whole, not about any specific content. If a player stays in the game due to content A, from business point of view there's no value in pushing him towards content B. In the case of that player, content B has meaning only if content A didn't work.

    So, there are very good reasons for keeping in this game someone that might have enjoyed a different game better, but there's no reason to keep that someone in a specific content if said player would enjoy a different content within the same game better.

    Thus, obviously, your witty, repeated attempts to equal rewards in specific content to rewards in game as a whole are not even comparing apples to oranges, but more like apples to clay bricks. The color may be somewhat similar (sometimes), but that's about all such a comparison is good for.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Legendery amor and envoy skin should be possible to earn for all not the special few

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    Let’s all be honest here that people are only wanting legendary armor to be obtainable in fractals because they know they can’t get an easy mode in raids so this is the next best thing.

    I will complete my second legendary Armor from Raids this week (light, already got heavy), and am close to getting the medium one from WvW.
    So I'm set.

    The reason I would like a Fractal Armor is because in my eyes, it's just as valid endgame as Raids, sPvP or WvW.
    In fact, while I personally have fractal CM's on comfortable daily clear and don't struggle with them (aside from finding people to do them with daily), I would rate them above almost all Raid bosses in terms of difficulty.

    Considering I'm closing in on Fractal God, I would appreciate more things to strive for in Fractals, as well as a much needed bump to the player population in that mode, especially CM's, as well as further development of that aspect of Fractals.

    Raids are not as crazy difficult as you seem to believe, and if anything, are by far the fastest game mode to get Legendary armor with.
    I've been working on the WvW Legendary armor (or to be precise saving up tickets for future things to come) since before I started raiding, and now am about to make my second Raid armor before getting there.

    If you want Legendary Armor, Raids is the easy and fast way to go if you are a decent player. A Fractal Armor doesn't need to change that.
    It takes arguably more personal skill to perform in a 5 player group, and could require, as mentioned before, CM runs and Fractal titles, making it quite inaccessible, if that's desired, providing an endgame goal and sink for Fractal Veterans, and incentive to get into CM's for new players.

    "As you know, those who you once called friends have become enemies." ~Glint

  • Returning to the original post's idea, the OP wrote:

    [Legendary Armour from PvP and WvW] [& the Illustrious armour that BLING-9009 sells] require similar amounts of Marks and gold.
    So ... why can't the Illustrious armour be converted into ... armour [with legendary properties] too?

    Subsequently, we've seen posts from people who love the idea & some who dislike it. The primary arguments seem to be:

    PRO

    • lots of PvE-focused players dislike raiding, for reasons that include ability to reserve multiple consecutive hours, to feeling it's gimmicked, to having trouble with the concept
    • it could bring new players to fractals
    • people who fractal a lot will eventually run out of currency sinks (less than 10 months to max Attunement-4 for those who do CM)
    • it's a "proportionate" value (as noted by the OP)

    CON

    • it reduces incentive for raiding, i.e. fractals gain of players like means a loss to raids
    • it dilutes the value of the rewards in raids, which (some argue) are weak enough already
    • proportionate rewards aren't necessarily a good thing; better to offer benefits that distinguish each mode from the other

    I'll be happy to add/edit the list above if I missed anything.
    (I'm just hoping to return the discussion back to the original idea.)

    "Face the facts. Then act on them. It's ...the only doctrine I have to offer you, & it's harder than you'd think, because I swear humans seem hardwired to do anything but. Face the facts. Don't pray, don't wish, ...FACE THE FACTS. THEN act." — Quellcrist Falconer

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 5, 2018

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    Remove all rewards from the game. Wont it make it clear who is there to play and enjoy the content and who is there to earn rewards?

    Primary reason for the game is to make money for Anet. Thus, if there are people that are in this game only for rewards, without actually enjoying it, it's okay. If they enjoyed it it would be better, of course, but as long as they don't quit that is also fine, i guess.

    Now, that is about the game as a whole, not about any specific content. If a player stays in the game due to content A, from business point of view there's no value in pushing him towards content B. In the case of that player, content B has meaning only if content A didn't work.

    So, there are very good reasons for keeping in this game someone that might have enjoyed a different game better, but there's no reason to keep that someone in a specific content if said player would enjoy a different content within the same game better.

    Thus, obviously, your witty, repeated attempts to equal rewards in specific content to rewards in game as a whole are not even comparing apples to oranges, but more like apples to clay bricks. The color may be somewhat similar (sometimes), but that's about all such a comparison is good for.

    Maybe a better example, instead of removing rewards, would have been to make all rewards in the game available from everywhere. If someone wants to farm world bosses to get legendary armor, fractal weapon skins, fractal tonic, WvW legendary backpack, PvP titles, and so on, then they can. Players could then do the content that they prefer in order to get the rewards that they want and apparently there’s no harm to the game from doing this.

    There’s very little difference between a specific reward like legendary armor and all rewards other than scope. It’s like comparing an apple to a bushel of apples and not to a clay brick. If players have no issue with one item being available in another area then they really shouldn’t have any issues with all items being available in another area as well.

    There’s little difference between having legendary armor to be available in raids, to be available in fractals, to be available from world bosses, or to be available from semi-AFK farming mobs. I’d say skill level would have been a major difference but that has already been dismissed otherwise there wouldn’t have been an issue with them solely being available in raids. If an exception was made for fractals then why couldn’t one be made for any other area of PvE?

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    Maybe a better example, instead of removing rewards, would have been to make all rewards in the game available from everywhere. If someone wants to farm world bosses to get legendary armor, fractal weapon skins, fractal tonic, WvW legendary backpack, PvP titles, and so on, then they can. Players could then do the content that they prefer in order to get the rewards that they want and apparently there’s no harm to the game from doing this.

    There’s very little difference between a specific reward like legendary armor and all rewards other than scope. It’s like comparing an apple to a bushel of apples and not to a clay brick. If players have no issue with one item being available in another area then they really shouldn’t have any issues with all items being available in another area as well.

    There’s little difference between having legendary armor to be available in raids, to be available in fractals, to be available from world bosses, or to be available from semi-AFK farming mobs. I’d say skill level would have been a major difference but that has already been dismissed otherwise there wouldn’t have been an issue with them solely being available in raids. If an exception was made for fractals then why couldn’t one be made for any other area of PvE?

    I don't think there is an argument for the exact same rewards to be added everywhere, but rather quite clearly the same quality of rewards for endgame activities.
    I wouldn't mind at all if Raids got a unique Legendary Backpack too, like Fractals, WvW and sPvP, just like Fractals could get a unique Legendary Armor, like Raids, WvW and sPvP.
    Legendary Armor as mechanic is not a reward unique to Raids, and why should it be? The skin is, that's all.

    And if they would add an open world Legendary armour with a unique skin requiring the killing of 10000 World Bosses, then who cares?
    As long as it's not both easier AND faster to get than the Raid armor, as well as not sharing the skin, how does that take away from the fast to get Raid armor?

    Someone having the dedication to grind out WvW pips for hours daily, for months, if not years, is already way more impressive than hopping in a raid for 3h once a week and be done with it.
    Just like Fractals as daily content doesn't compete with the once weekly Raids.

    Plus I'm not quite sure what your problem with Fractals in general is, as you seem to equate it to running around in open world, when it's in fact on the challenge level of raids, if not above, in terms of required individual skill level, especially with bad instability combinations.

    Not sure if you are grasping straws or trolling..

    "As you know, those who you once called friends have become enemies." ~Glint

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

    • it could bring new players to fractals

    Do we really want new players to come to Fractals? I mean, Fractals existed for a very long time, if someone hasn't liked Fractals so far, they won't like it even with the addition of the legendary armor. In fact, they'd most likely go and play content they don't like and cause all sorts of trouble for those already running Fractals. I can already imagine the high influx of threads about "I've been kicked by evil DPS meters!" Further, this adds a high possibility of adding daily T4 selling to the LFG, as those who never bothered with T4 before will... pay to finish it and create a market.

    For old/current Fractal players, it's a great addition, they engaged with the mode because they like it and as you said, they'll run out of sinks eventually, but I don't think bringing entirely new players in Fractals, for the sole purpose of getting the armor, is a PRO but rather a CON. And a big con at that.

    • it reduces incentive for raiding, i.e. fractals gain of players like means a loss to raids

    There is still Path of Fire raids that won't be affected by Fractals getting legendary armor. I think they could balance this by increasing the rewards of Raids, as they are now Fractals are better than Raids. Easier to complete, faster, less players required, can be done daily, and of course higher liquid rewards. If they are to "balance" the rewards by adding another version in Fractals, they could simply increase the rewards of Raids, to make it the best liquid reward content (still weekly of course).

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    For old/current Fractal players, it's a great addition, they engaged with the mode because they like it and as you said, they'll run out of sinks eventually, but I don't think >bringing entirely new players in Fractals, for the sole purpose of getting the armor, is a PRO but rather a CON. And a big con at that.

    I'm sorry, why exactly bringing new players to fractals is a bad thing?
    Fractals offer what most MMOs did and doing, progression trough dungeoning.

    Va'esse deireádh aep eigean, va'esse eigh faidh'ar

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @phs.6089 said:
    I'm sorry, why exactly bringing new players to fractals is a bad thing?

    It's bad if these new players come only to get their armor.

    Fractals offer what most MMOs did and doing, progression trough dungeoning.

    And they offer that today without the need to add a Legendary Armor as a reward. Why aren't these supposedly new players not liking progression and dungeoneering now but they will suddenly like them both if they add Legendary Armor as a reward? Why haven't these "new" players, that will come to Fractals if they add the Legendary Armor, already played and liked Fractals? Why do they need Legendary Armor to play content that offers what most MMOs do?

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 5, 2018

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @phs.6089 said:
    I'm sorry, why exactly bringing new players to fractals is a bad thing?

    It's bad if these new players come only to get their armor.

    Fractals offer what most MMOs did and doing, progression trough dungeoning.

    And they offer that today without the need to add a Legendary Armor as a reward. Why aren't these supposedly new players not liking progression and dungeoneering now but they will suddenly like them both if they add Legendary Armor as a reward? Why haven't these "new" players, that will come to Fractals if they add the Legendary Armor, already played and liked Fractals? Why do they need Legendary Armor to play content that offers what most MMOs do?

    I see them, new coming everyday to fractals. If I have time I join t1, t2 and run with then, explain. I own fractal runners a biggie, times I was new those people never were rude, nasty or anything.

    As for the farmers that will come, you should see what is going on in pvp for legendary back item. Luckily there is a 'kick' option in fractals.

    Selling T4s, dunno I see this on NA every now and then.
    'CMs, t4 dailies/200gold/ ' in T1 LFG

    Va'esse deireádh aep eigean, va'esse eigh faidh'ar

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    Do we really want new players to come to Fractals? I mean, Fractals existed for a very long time, if someone hasn't liked Fractals so far, they won't like it even with the addition of the legendary armor.

    I really don't understand this gatekeeping in this community.
    There are plenty of people who think they don't like something without ever trying it. Give them the right incentive, and the might find enjoyment in the gamemode, while helping to keep it alive and developed.

    People stop playing/burn out on certain content all the time. If you neglect attracting new players, the game mode will eventually die.
    Most current Fractal goals, such as endless Potions and Titles are great to keep established long time Fractal players engaged, for some time, but are limited to Fractals itself. They don't do much for people not already interested in that content to give Fractals a shot, and to get over initial reservations they may have.

    Especially CM's are in dire need of a bigger players base. They need a big incentive that people outside the world of Fractals can look at and find useful in order to give it a shot.

    "As you know, those who you once called friends have become enemies." ~Glint

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    Let’s all be honest here that people are only wanting legendary armor to be obtainable in fractals because they know they can’t get an easy mode in raids so this is the next best thing.

    I will complete my second legendary Armor from Raids this week (light, already got heavy), and am close to getting the medium one from WvW.
    So I'm set.

    Not getting Medium Armor set from Raids?

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 5, 2018

    @phs.6089 said:
    As for the farmers that will come, you should see what is going on in pvp for legendary back item. Luckily there is a 'kick' option in fractals.

    That was gonna be my next line! The same thing happened in PVP when they added the Legendary back item there (and then legendary armor)
    This is the reason I'm calling "bringing new players" a con and not a pro as I've already seen what happened in PVP with these so called "new players" went to PVP for the shinnies with zero regard to the game mode itself.

    @Asum.4960 said:
    Most current Fractal goals, such as endless Potions and Titles are great to keep established long time Fractal players engaged, for some time, but are limited to Fractals itself. They don't do much for people not already interested in that content to give Fractals a shot, and to get over initial reservations they may have.

    I don't know about you, but I think T1 fractals are easier than many open world meta events. They are also REQUIRED to make Ad Infinitum (a legendary backpack), they are REQUIRED to make most Legendary Weapons (as parts of the Legendary journey) if you don't buy them, or their precursors, from the TP. Are all those legendary rewards so little to entice players to try Fractals and a Legendary Armor instead will do the trick? Sorry, I'm not buying it, there is tons of Legendary items available exclusively through Fractals, do they need more to entice new players?

    Can I get G1 precursor collections in Raids? No. Can I get them in PVP? No. WVW? No. They are Fractal exclusives and very good incentive for players to try them and get over their initial reservations.

    Edit: you need PVP/WVW for the precursors, my bad there

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