Legendary Fractal Armour - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Legendary Fractal Armour

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Comments

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Remember, from the developer's point of view it doesn't matter if player plays content A or content B, as long as they play and use the gemshop.

    Not quite true. It absolutely matters in both reward and implementation.

    For example:
    handing out a free legendary to each active account for simply loging in on a specific day would most certainly drive login rates through the roof. It would also not last long and would crash the market for a set period of time.

    We're not talking about free legendary though. We're talking about something that would keep the player similarily engaged and playing for at least the same amount of time.

    And I'm talking about the medium and longterm effects which an improper implementation would have.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    If a player spends 3 months of dedicated play and a ton of gold/mats on it, it doesn't really matter which mode they were playing - fractals or raids.

    How does this relate to pve legendary armor?

    Because opening the problems that raid legendary armor has caused to an even bigger chunk of the player base is a bad idea.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Simple, make legendary armor to easily available to the vast majority of the player base in the most played game mode, and there will be issues down the road.

    Fractals are hardly a "most played game mode". Even if they are more popular than raids.

    I was talking about pve, pvp and WvW obviously since the arguments brought forth are for a similar difficulty and time commitment legendary for pve as the other modes.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Raid legendary armor was always implemented with the idea that not the entire player base will get it.

    Which of course means its player retain value was lost on most players. Which means you now have to give something for them as well.

    That is a different issue but clearly identifies what problem a pve legendary armor would face down the road.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    A huge issue is that the cost disparity between legendary armor and ascended weapons is not as big as with weapons. Armor you get once and at a fraction of the cost compared to upgrading ascended to legendary weapons (and given how weapons are balanced, specific weapons work with specific builds). Weapons cost almost as much as an entire armor set while the armor set works for all builds.

    Nah, the main issue is that everyone can attempt to pursue a gen1 legendary weapon. For some it may take years, but they will stil be able to walk on that path. In case of armor though, only raiders (and now PvPers of both modes) can do so.

    Gen 1 legendary have their very own issues, let's not get those involved as well. Suffice to say, any further legendary were proofed against dome of the issues no matter how they were acquired.

    Any implementation of armor would obviously follow the same rules, aka personal involvement AND high cost.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Gen 1 weapons were a longterm goal for a whole game population, but armor sets are goals for only small subsets of it. That's why, even if the weapons cost more, there are (and will be) far more of people with them than it is for armor. Yes, the price difference will have an impact, but it's only going to get accerbated even more by the acquisition disparity.

    True and also due to how Gen 1 legendary are available.

    If we were to take Gen 2 legendary as a base value of 2k gold per legendary (and most other legendary since). Then account for a way bigger part of the player population being made able to acquire legendary armor without a proper time sink or time gate. Expect the price for a general pve legendary armor to be tremendous.

    This we are back at my suggestion:
    Fractal legendary armor to keep it pve related, limit the availability, provide a time gate.

  • thrag.9740thrag.9740 Member ✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Nah, the main issue is that everyone can attempt to pursue a gen1 legendary weapon. For some it may take years, but they will stil be able to walk on that path. In case of armor though, only raiders (and now PvPers of both modes) can do so.

    I don't think the justification is really true. Players that are willing to spend years working towards legendary equipment always have the option of buying raid kills. I've ran the math before on these forums, and if a player is willing to do a weekly clear of escort, spirit woods, and twisted castle, they can buy all other kills they need and get legendary armor in less than a year while only doubling the cost. We can debate whether or not those 3 events are really 'raiding', but I think from a practical standpoint of the type of players your talking about, they are not, i.e. virtually no chance of failure, very low expectations, little to no communication.

    I think its more accurate to say, there is wide spread unawareness or misinformation about buying raid kills. Players see the requirement of 150 li, and like 100 gold for a clear of a tough boss and they blindly assuming that getting legendary armor without really raiding would be over 15000 gold. In reality, you only really need to buy around 15 kills, and then grind the rest out at 3 per week. Either way, it has the same effect your arguing for, many players never even consider trying to get legendary armor.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 4, 2018

    @thrag.9740 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Nah, the main issue is that everyone can attempt to pursue a gen1 legendary weapon. For some it may take years, but they will stil be able to walk on that path. In case of armor though, only raiders (and now PvPers of both modes) can do so.

    I don't think the justification is really true. Players that are willing to spend years working towards legendary equipment always have the option of buying raid kills.

    No. People that can afford to buy a legendary out of their pocket money because they're in a hurry have option of buying raid kills. Those that pursue legendary for extended amount of time by just playing usually don't have that option.

    I've ran the math before on these forums, and if a player is willing to do a weekly clear of escort, spirit woods, and twisted castle, they can buy all other kills they need and get legendary armor in less than a year while only doubling the cost.

    Yes, but they'd stil have to raid. Also, they'd need to get past the initial collection gate, which is unrealistic for most of the players. That's a very big threshold to pass. On the other side, you can drop a gen1 precursor even by accident, and do most of the tier1 legendary weapon collections without even trying. The real threshold is not activity or type of content played, but merely gathering necessary mats. Common mats, at that. That's even more true of gen 2.5 weapons, as they don't even have the collections to worry about. Basically, with gen 2.5, at some point you decide to get yourself a legendary weapon, look in your bank, and realize that you are already well on your way towards that goal. You decide to get a legendary armor, and you realize, that you aren't even close to making a first step on that path. Unless you happen to play one of the three specific niche contents.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:
    People have mentioned downsides, which are substantial: there would be some disincentive to raid, there would be an influx of people who don't bother to learn how to fractal, hoping to cash in.

    One more downside, that is also important, is that Envoy Armor is not locked just in Raids, it's locked behind Heart of Thorns Raids. You can't get Envoy Armor by running Path of Fire Raids. Adding another PVE version of Legendary Armor (in Core content!) like Fractals is not only going to remove incentive from running Heart of Thorns Raids but also remove incentive from playing (and even buying?) Heart of Thorns in general. While also make it very hard to justify adding another Legendary Armor set in a future expansion, either in future Raids (unlikely) or in any other part of a future expansion.

    They already do this naturally by telling players that Raids are not for everybody and thus stating that Legendary Armor is not for everybody. Which from a marketing stand point is shooting themselves in the foot.

  • Turkeyspit.3965Turkeyspit.3965 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Which is fair, however the comment comes off as, only Raids should be entitled to having nice things. Give players more choice. If the only reason people are going into Raids strictly for the Armor, then it’s not really someone who is there for the joy of raiding in the first place. Maybe that will develop into a love of the game mode, it’s certainly possible.

    So if Anet stripped all rewards from the game, only those who still play are the ones that do so for the joy of playing the game? Is that healthy for the game?

    Why do you feel that "rewards" are not a part of the "joy" of playing the game?

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Which is fair, however the comment comes off as, only Raids should be entitled to having nice things. Give players more choice. If the only reason people are going into Raids strictly for the Armor, then it’s not really someone who is there for the joy of raiding in the first place. Maybe that will develop into a love of the game mode, it’s certainly possible.

    So if Anet stripped all rewards from the game, only those who still play are the ones that do so for the joy of playing the game? Is that healthy for the game?

    Why do you feel that "rewards" are not a part of the "joy" of playing the game?

    Because rewards are what keep players playing content. If the game had no rewards, how long do you think players would continue to play?

    Anyway, this all stemmed from the argument about nerfing the races and those that liked the challenge can do it based off of the leaderboard and that be a reward in if itself. They made that argument against one group that they were not a part of when their very same argument can apply to everyone.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Which is fair, however the comment comes off as, only Raids should be entitled to having nice things. Give players more choice. If the only reason people are going into Raids strictly for the Armor, then it’s not really someone who is there for the joy of raiding in the first place. Maybe that will develop into a love of the game mode, it’s certainly possible.

    So if Anet stripped all rewards from the game, only those who still play are the ones that do so for the joy of playing the game? Is that healthy for the game?

    People do like to be rewarded, that's true. But is there any reason for them to be rewarded specifically for raids, over a different type of content? Is pushing people towards content they don't like instead of allowing them to get rewards in a mode they prefer healthy for the game?

    In realiy, from the developer's point of view, there should be no difference whatsoever in which content players are going to obtain their legendary armor, as long as doing so will keep them engaged for about the same time. So, if a fractal legendary armor will cause some people to move from raids to fractals, it's not a problem at all. In fact, it can be beneficial, because players tend to stay longer in the game if they enjoy the content more.

    Yes because it gets players to play different content. Anet has actually made efforts to get players to do just that. You may see it as no different but they don’t.

  • @Tyson.5160 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:
    People have mentioned downsides, which are substantial: there would be some disincentive to raid, there would be an influx of people who don't bother to learn how to fractal, hoping to cash in.

    One more downside, that is also important, is that Envoy Armor is not locked just in Raids, it's locked behind Heart of Thorns Raids. You can't get Envoy Armor by running Path of Fire Raids. Adding another PVE version of Legendary Armor (in Core content!) like Fractals is not only going to remove incentive from running Heart of Thorns Raids but also remove incentive from playing (and even buying?) Heart of Thorns in general. While also make it very hard to justify adding another Legendary Armor set in a future expansion, either in future Raids (unlikely) or in any other part of a future expansion.

    They already do this naturally by telling players that Raids are not for everybody and thus stating that Legendary Armor is not for everybody. Which from a marketing stand point is shooting themselves in the foot.

    Um, no. Raids are marketed to a different group of players and the mode has been apparently (according to ANet) more successful than they expected. It draws in and retains players interested in challenging content. The exclusive armor skin is part of the draw.

    There's an existing discussion over whether it's best for the game to attract that niche of players (ANet clearly thinks so; some players clearly disagree) and a separate argument about whether there should be any exclusive rewards (that's a generic question about game design). In the end, however, it's ANet's game and their future that depends on ANet making a good choice. And since they have 10+ years of success at it, I'm inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt that they know better than we do about what will be successful.

    "With great power comes not-so-great utility bills."

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:
    People have mentioned downsides, which are substantial: there would be some disincentive to raid, there would be an influx of people who don't bother to learn how to fractal, hoping to cash in.

    One more downside, that is also important, is that Envoy Armor is not locked just in Raids, it's locked behind Heart of Thorns Raids. You can't get Envoy Armor by running Path of Fire Raids. Adding another PVE version of Legendary Armor (in Core content!) like Fractals is not only going to remove incentive from running Heart of Thorns Raids but also remove incentive from playing (and even buying?) Heart of Thorns in general. While also make it very hard to justify adding another Legendary Armor set in a future expansion, either in future Raids (unlikely) or in any other part of a future expansion.

    They already do this naturally by telling players that Raids are not for everybody and thus stating that Legendary Armor is not for everybody. Which from a marketing stand point is shooting themselves in the foot.

    Um, no. Raids are marketed to a different group of players and the mode has been apparently (according to ANet) more successful than they expected. It draws in and retains players interested in challenging content. The exclusive armor skin is part of the draw.

    There's an existing discussion over whether it's best for the game to attract that niche of players (ANet clearly thinks so; some players clearly disagree) and a separate argument about whether there should be any exclusive rewards (that's a generic question about game design). In the end, however, it's ANet's game and their future that depends on ANet making a good choice. And since they have 10+ years of success at it, I'm inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt that they know better than we do about what will be successful.

    Yes, but what Madd was saying is that if you introduce Fractal Legendary Armor you are telling players not to buy Heart of Thorns because that’s the only current way to get PVE Legendary Armor, through raids. What I’m saying is that they are already telling people that this Armor isn’t for you, if you don’t have the skill for raiding, which in and of itself not really beneficial to entice people to buy Heart of Thorns.

  • Tails.9372Tails.9372 Member ✭✭✭✭

    A legendary set should be a reward that shows a players general dedication to the related content (as it is the case for every currently available legendary armor set) which is why "grind only" should be sufficient.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 4, 2018

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:
    People have mentioned downsides, which are substantial: there would be some disincentive to raid, there would be an influx of people who don't bother to learn how to fractal, hoping to cash in.

    One more downside, that is also important, is that Envoy Armor is not locked just in Raids, it's locked behind Heart of Thorns Raids. You can't get Envoy Armor by running Path of Fire Raids. Adding another PVE version of Legendary Armor (in Core content!) like Fractals is not only going to remove incentive from running Heart of Thorns Raids but also remove incentive from playing (and even buying?) Heart of Thorns in general. While also make it very hard to justify adding another Legendary Armor set in a future expansion, either in future Raids (unlikely) or in any other part of a future expansion.

    They already do this naturally by telling players that Raids are not for everybody and thus stating that Legendary Armor is not for everybody. Which from a marketing stand point is shooting themselves in the foot.

    Um, no. Raids are marketed to a different group of players and the mode has been apparently (according to ANet) more successful than they expected. It draws in and retains players interested in challenging content. The exclusive armor skin is part of the draw.

    There's an existing discussion over whether it's best for the game to attract that niche of players (ANet clearly thinks so; some players clearly disagree) and a separate argument about whether there should be any exclusive rewards (that's a generic question about game design). In the end, however, it's ANet's game and their future that depends on ANet making a good choice. And since they have 10+ years of success at it, I'm inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt that they know better than we do about what will be successful.

    Yes, but what Madd was saying is that if you introduce Fractal Legendary Armor you are telling players not to buy Heart of Thorns because that’s the only current way to get PVE Legendary Armor, through raids. What I’m saying is that they are already telling people that this Armor isn’t for you, if you don’t have the skill for raiding, which in and of itself not really beneficial to entice people to buy Heart of Thorns.

    Just like how so many PvE rewards aren’t for PvP players then (and vice versa)? This isn’t Anet telling people that this isn’t for them but the players doing it to themselves. Everyone has the capacity to get better at raids but they choose not to do so assuming they even try in the first place.

  • Shikaru.7618Shikaru.7618 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 4, 2018

    @Tails.9372 said:
    A legendary set should be a reward that shows a players general dedication to the related content (as it is the case for every currently available legendary armor set) which is why "grind only" should be sufficient.

    A grind option is a available. You can complete escort 150 weeks in a row for the li and grind open world for gold to buy raid kills. Escort is open world difficulty completable by all. It's been 127 weeks since escort was released so only 23 more weeks to go!

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 4, 2018

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:
    People have mentioned downsides, which are substantial: there would be some disincentive to raid, there would be an influx of people who don't bother to learn how to fractal, hoping to cash in.

    One more downside, that is also important, is that Envoy Armor is not locked just in Raids, it's locked behind Heart of Thorns Raids. You can't get Envoy Armor by running Path of Fire Raids. Adding another PVE version of Legendary Armor (in Core content!) like Fractals is not only going to remove incentive from running Heart of Thorns Raids but also remove incentive from playing (and even buying?) Heart of Thorns in general. While also make it very hard to justify adding another Legendary Armor set in a future expansion, either in future Raids (unlikely) or in any other part of a future expansion.

    They already do this naturally by telling players that Raids are not for everybody and thus stating that Legendary Armor is not for everybody. Which from a marketing stand point is shooting themselves in the foot.

    Um, no. Raids are marketed to a different group of players and the mode has been apparently (according to ANet) more successful than they expected. It draws in and retains players interested in challenging content. The exclusive armor skin is part of the draw.

    There's an existing discussion over whether it's best for the game to attract that niche of players (ANet clearly thinks so; some players clearly disagree) and a separate argument about whether there should be any exclusive rewards (that's a generic question about game design). In the end, however, it's ANet's game and their future that depends on ANet making a good choice. And since they have 10+ years of success at it, I'm inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt that they know better than we do about what will be successful.

    Yes, but what Madd was saying is that if you introduce Fractal Legendary Armor you are telling players not to buy Heart of Thorns because that’s the only current way to get PVE Legendary Armor, through raids. What I’m saying is that they are already telling people that this Armor isn’t for you, if you don’t have the skill for raiding, which in and of itself not really beneficial to entice people to buy Heart of Thorns.

    Just saying Legendary PvP armor is also locked behind HoT.
    If they ever introduce Fractals Leg Armor, it would be tied to Masteries I guess, that are impossible to get without expansions

    @Shikaru.7618 said:

    @Tails.9372 said:
    A legendary set should be a reward that shows a players general dedication to the related content (as it is the case for every currently available legendary armor set) which is why "grind only" should be sufficient.

    A grind option is a available. You can complete escort 150 weeks in a row for the li and grind open world for gold to buy raid kills. Escort is open world difficulty completable by all. It's been 127 weeks since escort was released so only 13 more weeks to go!

    that isn't a grind, that is more of cheesing :)

    I dream of elves in GW2.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:
    People have mentioned downsides, which are substantial: there would be some disincentive to raid, there would be an influx of people who don't bother to learn how to fractal, hoping to cash in.

    One more downside, that is also important, is that Envoy Armor is not locked just in Raids, it's locked behind Heart of Thorns Raids. You can't get Envoy Armor by running Path of Fire Raids. Adding another PVE version of Legendary Armor (in Core content!) like Fractals is not only going to remove incentive from running Heart of Thorns Raids but also remove incentive from playing (and even buying?) Heart of Thorns in general. While also make it very hard to justify adding another Legendary Armor set in a future expansion, either in future Raids (unlikely) or in any other part of a future expansion.

    They already do this naturally by telling players that Raids are not for everybody and thus stating that Legendary Armor is not for everybody. Which from a marketing stand point is shooting themselves in the foot.

    Um, no. Raids are marketed to a different group of players and the mode has been apparently (according to ANet) more successful than they expected. It draws in and retains players interested in challenging content. The exclusive armor skin is part of the draw.

    There's an existing discussion over whether it's best for the game to attract that niche of players (ANet clearly thinks so; some players clearly disagree) and a separate argument about whether there should be any exclusive rewards (that's a generic question about game design). In the end, however, it's ANet's game and their future that depends on ANet making a good choice. And since they have 10+ years of success at it, I'm inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt that they know better than we do about what will be successful.

    Yes, but what Madd was saying is that if you introduce Fractal Legendary Armor you are telling players not to buy Heart of Thorns because that’s the only current way to get PVE Legendary Armor, through raids. What I’m saying is that they are already telling people that this Armor isn’t for you, if you don’t have the skill for raiding, which in and of itself not really beneficial to entice people to buy Heart of Thorns.

    Just like how so many PvE rewards aren’t for PvP players then (and vice versa)? This isn’t Anet telling people that this isn’t for them but the players doing it to themselves. Everyone has the capacity to get better at raids but they choose not to do so assuming they even try in the first place.

    I’m pretty sure Anet came out and said that up front. Crystal Reid if I recall.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Sorry Ayrilana, are you for or against Legendary Fractal Armor?

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭

    Fractals, or at least CM's, feel more and more dead, and urgently need a big incentive to bring people back or into that content.
    Additionally I really like the aesthetic of some of the Fractal Weapons, and wanted to have a prestige armour in that style for a long time.

    By making it require the Fractal titles, as high as Fractal God maybe, it would already be the harshest requirement of the Legendary armours, as that is easily 6k gold, so it woulnd't really deter people from getting into Raids for just the legendary armour alone, as it would still be by far the fastest way to earn one.

    So as long as it requires CM completions and at least some investment into the Fractals Titles (at least Prodigy or Champion), I would be all for it.
    Probably not going to happen though.

    Especially CM's, need additional development and/or incentives though, or the player base will just dry up completely.

    "As you know, those who you once called friends have become enemies." ~Glint

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:
    People have mentioned downsides, which are substantial: there would be some disincentive to raid, there would be an influx of people who don't bother to learn how to fractal, hoping to cash in.

    One more downside, that is also important, is that Envoy Armor is not locked just in Raids, it's locked behind Heart of Thorns Raids. You can't get Envoy Armor by running Path of Fire Raids. Adding another PVE version of Legendary Armor (in Core content!) like Fractals is not only going to remove incentive from running Heart of Thorns Raids but also remove incentive from playing (and even buying?) Heart of Thorns in general. While also make it very hard to justify adding another Legendary Armor set in a future expansion, either in future Raids (unlikely) or in any other part of a future expansion.

    They already do this naturally by telling players that Raids are not for everybody and thus stating that Legendary Armor is not for everybody. Which from a marketing stand point is shooting themselves in the foot.

    Um, no. Raids are marketed to a different group of players and the mode has been apparently (according to ANet) more successful than they expected. It draws in and retains players interested in challenging content. The exclusive armor skin is part of the draw.

    There's an existing discussion over whether it's best for the game to attract that niche of players (ANet clearly thinks so; some players clearly disagree) and a separate argument about whether there should be any exclusive rewards (that's a generic question about game design). In the end, however, it's ANet's game and their future that depends on ANet making a good choice. And since they have 10+ years of success at it, I'm inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt that they know better than we do about what will be successful.

    Yes, but what Madd was saying is that if you introduce Fractal Legendary Armor you are telling players not to buy Heart of Thorns because that’s the only current way to get PVE Legendary Armor, through raids. What I’m saying is that they are already telling people that this Armor isn’t for you, if you don’t have the skill for raiding, which in and of itself not really beneficial to entice people to buy Heart of Thorns.

    Just like how so many PvE rewards aren’t for PvP players then (and vice versa)? This isn’t Anet telling people that this isn’t for them but the players doing it to themselves. Everyone has the capacity to get better at raids but they choose not to do so assuming they even try in the first place.

    I’m pretty sure Anet came out and said that up front. Crystal Reid if I recall.

    She said from a skill perspective. That's different.

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Sorry Ayrilana, are you for or against Legendary Fractal Armor?

    Against.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:
    People have mentioned downsides, which are substantial: there would be some disincentive to raid, there would be an influx of people who don't bother to learn how to fractal, hoping to cash in.

    One more downside, that is also important, is that Envoy Armor is not locked just in Raids, it's locked behind Heart of Thorns Raids. You can't get Envoy Armor by running Path of Fire Raids. Adding another PVE version of Legendary Armor (in Core content!) like Fractals is not only going to remove incentive from running Heart of Thorns Raids but also remove incentive from playing (and even buying?) Heart of Thorns in general. While also make it very hard to justify adding another Legendary Armor set in a future expansion, either in future Raids (unlikely) or in any other part of a future expansion.

    They already do this naturally by telling players that Raids are not for everybody and thus stating that Legendary Armor is not for everybody. Which from a marketing stand point is shooting themselves in the foot.

    Um, no. Raids are marketed to a different group of players and the mode has been apparently (according to ANet) more successful than they expected. It draws in and retains players interested in challenging content. The exclusive armor skin is part of the draw.

    There's an existing discussion over whether it's best for the game to attract that niche of players (ANet clearly thinks so; some players clearly disagree) and a separate argument about whether there should be any exclusive rewards (that's a generic question about game design). In the end, however, it's ANet's game and their future that depends on ANet making a good choice. And since they have 10+ years of success at it, I'm inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt that they know better than we do about what will be successful.

    Yes, but what Madd was saying is that if you introduce Fractal Legendary Armor you are telling players not to buy Heart of Thorns because that’s the only current way to get PVE Legendary Armor, through raids. What I’m saying is that they are already telling people that this Armor isn’t for you, if you don’t have the skill for raiding, which in and of itself not really beneficial to entice people to buy Heart of Thorns.

    Just like how so many PvE rewards aren’t for PvP players then (and vice versa)? This isn’t Anet telling people that this isn’t for them but the players doing it to themselves. Everyone has the capacity to get better at raids but they choose not to do so assuming they even try in the first place.

    I’m pretty sure Anet came out and said that up front. Crystal Reid if I recall.

    She said from a skill perspective. That's different.

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Sorry Ayrilana, are you for or against Legendary Fractal Armor?

    Against.

    Because it would take players away from Raiding?

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 5, 2018

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:
    People have mentioned downsides, which are substantial: there would be some disincentive to raid, there would be an influx of people who don't bother to learn how to fractal, hoping to cash in.

    One more downside, that is also important, is that Envoy Armor is not locked just in Raids, it's locked behind Heart of Thorns Raids. You can't get Envoy Armor by running Path of Fire Raids. Adding another PVE version of Legendary Armor (in Core content!) like Fractals is not only going to remove incentive from running Heart of Thorns Raids but also remove incentive from playing (and even buying?) Heart of Thorns in general. While also make it very hard to justify adding another Legendary Armor set in a future expansion, either in future Raids (unlikely) or in any other part of a future expansion.

    They already do this naturally by telling players that Raids are not for everybody and thus stating that Legendary Armor is not for everybody. Which from a marketing stand point is shooting themselves in the foot.

    Um, no. Raids are marketed to a different group of players and the mode has been apparently (according to ANet) more successful than they expected. It draws in and retains players interested in challenging content. The exclusive armor skin is part of the draw.

    There's an existing discussion over whether it's best for the game to attract that niche of players (ANet clearly thinks so; some players clearly disagree) and a separate argument about whether there should be any exclusive rewards (that's a generic question about game design). In the end, however, it's ANet's game and their future that depends on ANet making a good choice. And since they have 10+ years of success at it, I'm inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt that they know better than we do about what will be successful.

    Yes, but what Madd was saying is that if you introduce Fractal Legendary Armor you are telling players not to buy Heart of Thorns because that’s the only current way to get PVE Legendary Armor, through raids. What I’m saying is that they are already telling people that this Armor isn’t for you, if you don’t have the skill for raiding, which in and of itself not really beneficial to entice people to buy Heart of Thorns.

    Just like how so many PvE rewards aren’t for PvP players then (and vice versa)? This isn’t Anet telling people that this isn’t for them but the players doing it to themselves. Everyone has the capacity to get better at raids but they choose not to do so assuming they even try in the first place.

    I’m pretty sure Anet came out and said that up front. Crystal Reid if I recall.

    She said from a skill perspective. That's different.

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Sorry Ayrilana, are you for or against Legendary Fractal Armor?

    Against.

    Because it would take players away from Raiding?

    It would take away those solely doing raids for legendary armor. There’s also no need for another set in the game.

    I’m not against Anet releasing a new armor skin set though such as one that shares the theme of fractal weapons.

    Let’s all be honest here that people are only wanting legendary armor to be obtainable in fractals because they know they can’t get an easy mode in raids so this is the next best thing.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 5, 2018

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:
    People have mentioned downsides, which are substantial: there would be some disincentive to raid, there would be an influx of people who don't bother to learn how to fractal, hoping to cash in.

    One more downside, that is also important, is that Envoy Armor is not locked just in Raids, it's locked behind Heart of Thorns Raids. You can't get Envoy Armor by running Path of Fire Raids. Adding another PVE version of Legendary Armor (in Core content!) like Fractals is not only going to remove incentive from running Heart of Thorns Raids but also remove incentive from playing (and even buying?) Heart of Thorns in general. While also make it very hard to justify adding another Legendary Armor set in a future expansion, either in future Raids (unlikely) or in any other part of a future expansion.

    They already do this naturally by telling players that Raids are not for everybody and thus stating that Legendary Armor is not for everybody. Which from a marketing stand point is shooting themselves in the foot.

    Um, no. Raids are marketed to a different group of players and the mode has been apparently (according to ANet) more successful than they expected. It draws in and retains players interested in challenging content. The exclusive armor skin is part of the draw.

    There's an existing discussion over whether it's best for the game to attract that niche of players (ANet clearly thinks so; some players clearly disagree) and a separate argument about whether there should be any exclusive rewards (that's a generic question about game design). In the end, however, it's ANet's game and their future that depends on ANet making a good choice. And since they have 10+ years of success at it, I'm inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt that they know better than we do about what will be successful.

    Yes, but what Madd was saying is that if you introduce Fractal Legendary Armor you are telling players not to buy Heart of Thorns because that’s the only current way to get PVE Legendary Armor, through raids. What I’m saying is that they are already telling people that this Armor isn’t for you, if you don’t have the skill for raiding, which in and of itself not really beneficial to entice people to buy Heart of Thorns.

    Just like how so many PvE rewards aren’t for PvP players then (and vice versa)? This isn’t Anet telling people that this isn’t for them but the players doing it to themselves. Everyone has the capacity to get better at raids but they choose not to do so assuming they even try in the first place.

    I’m pretty sure Anet came out and said that up front. Crystal Reid if I recall.

    She said from a skill perspective. That's different.

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Sorry Ayrilana, are you for or against Legendary Fractal Armor?

    Against.

    Because it would take players away from Raiding?

    It would take away those solely doing raids for legendary armor. There’s also no need for another set in the game.

    I’m not against Anet releasing a new armor skin set though such as one that shares the theme of fractal weapons.

    Let’s all be honest that people here are wanting legendary armor to be obtainable in fractals because they know they can’t get an easy mode in raids so this is the next best thing.

    Do you think given the choice between Raids and Fractals, if both had Legendary Armor sets, that people would naturally gravitate towards fractals or raids?

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 5, 2018

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:
    People have mentioned downsides, which are substantial: there would be some disincentive to raid, there would be an influx of people who don't bother to learn how to fractal, hoping to cash in.

    One more downside, that is also important, is that Envoy Armor is not locked just in Raids, it's locked behind Heart of Thorns Raids. You can't get Envoy Armor by running Path of Fire Raids. Adding another PVE version of Legendary Armor (in Core content!) like Fractals is not only going to remove incentive from running Heart of Thorns Raids but also remove incentive from playing (and even buying?) Heart of Thorns in general. While also make it very hard to justify adding another Legendary Armor set in a future expansion, either in future Raids (unlikely) or in any other part of a future expansion.

    They already do this naturally by telling players that Raids are not for everybody and thus stating that Legendary Armor is not for everybody. Which from a marketing stand point is shooting themselves in the foot.

    Um, no. Raids are marketed to a different group of players and the mode has been apparently (according to ANet) more successful than they expected. It draws in and retains players interested in challenging content. The exclusive armor skin is part of the draw.

    There's an existing discussion over whether it's best for the game to attract that niche of players (ANet clearly thinks so; some players clearly disagree) and a separate argument about whether there should be any exclusive rewards (that's a generic question about game design). In the end, however, it's ANet's game and their future that depends on ANet making a good choice. And since they have 10+ years of success at it, I'm inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt that they know better than we do about what will be successful.

    Yes, but what Madd was saying is that if you introduce Fractal Legendary Armor you are telling players not to buy Heart of Thorns because that’s the only current way to get PVE Legendary Armor, through raids. What I’m saying is that they are already telling people that this Armor isn’t for you, if you don’t have the skill for raiding, which in and of itself not really beneficial to entice people to buy Heart of Thorns.

    Just like how so many PvE rewards aren’t for PvP players then (and vice versa)? This isn’t Anet telling people that this isn’t for them but the players doing it to themselves. Everyone has the capacity to get better at raids but they choose not to do so assuming they even try in the first place.

    I’m pretty sure Anet came out and said that up front. Crystal Reid if I recall.

    She said from a skill perspective. That's different.

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Sorry Ayrilana, are you for or against Legendary Fractal Armor?

    Against.

    Because it would take players away from Raiding?

    It would take away those solely doing raids for legendary armor. There’s also no need for another set in the game.

    I’m not against Anet releasing a new armor skin set though such as one that shares the theme of fractal weapons.

    Let’s all be honest that people here are wanting legendary armor to be obtainable in fractals because they know they can’t get an easy mode in raids so this is the next best thing.

    Do you think given the choice between Raids and Fractals, if both had Legendary Armor sets, that people would naturally gravity towards fractals or raids?

    Fractals because it would be the next best thing to an easy mode. No different had legendary armor been released to fractals only and then offered for doing core Tyria world bosses. Players would then do core Tyria world bosses because that would be easier.

  • thrag.9740thrag.9740 Member ✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @thrag.9740 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Nah, the main issue is that everyone can attempt to pursue a gen1 legendary weapon. For some it may take years, but they will stil be able to walk on that path. In case of armor though, only raiders (and now PvPers of both modes) can do so.

    I don't think the justification is really true. Players that are willing to spend years working towards legendary equipment always have the option of buying raid kills.

    No. People that can afford to buy a legendary out of their pocket money because they're in a hurry have option of buying raid kills. Those that pursue legendary for extended amount of time by just playing usually don't have that option.

    Do fractal dailies-> acquire 1.5k gold in less than 3 months. Patient players earn more gold per hour than impatient players, because they have the option of doing the efficient daily content for all of their gold. A player that wants to earn 1.5k gold in a week has to resort to less efficient options like open world farms. Your argument that players in a rush can buy raid kills is completely backwards. Patient players are in a much better position to do so.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @thrag.9740 said:
    I've ran the math before on these forums, and if a player is willing to do a weekly clear of escort, spirit woods, and twisted castle, they can buy all other kills they need and get legendary armor in less than a year while only doubling the cost.

    Yes, but they'd still have to raid.

    Spirit woods and twisted castle literally don't have a boss in them, those events are raids in name only. Honestly, have you ever even done these events? I feel like someone who has ever done these events wouldn't pin their whole argument on them technically being considered raids.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Also, they'd need to get past the initial collection gate, which is unrealistic for most of the players. That's a very big threshold to pass.

    I think your misunderstanding my entire point. Buying every kill to do that collection is 1.5k gold last I checked prices. The remaining 130 ish LI can be grinded with 2 or 3 weekly events that award LI, 2 of which don't have a boss at all, and have a near zero chance of failure. So again, I will repeat myself, by doubling the cost of legendary armor, you can get legendary armor without ever killing a raid boss. A factor of 2. We are not talking orders of magnitude. Buying raid kills is perceived as expensive because players incorrectly think they need to buy 150 kills. But getting raid armor without raiding only takes twice as much money as getting the raid armor with raiding.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:
    People have mentioned downsides, which are substantial: there would be some disincentive to raid, there would be an influx of people who don't bother to learn how to fractal, hoping to cash in.

    One more downside, that is also important, is that Envoy Armor is not locked just in Raids, it's locked behind Heart of Thorns Raids. You can't get Envoy Armor by running Path of Fire Raids. Adding another PVE version of Legendary Armor (in Core content!) like Fractals is not only going to remove incentive from running Heart of Thorns Raids but also remove incentive from playing (and even buying?) Heart of Thorns in general. While also make it very hard to justify adding another Legendary Armor set in a future expansion, either in future Raids (unlikely) or in any other part of a future expansion.

    They already do this naturally by telling players that Raids are not for everybody and thus stating that Legendary Armor is not for everybody. Which from a marketing stand point is shooting themselves in the foot.

    Um, no. Raids are marketed to a different group of players and the mode has been apparently (according to ANet) more successful than they expected. It draws in and retains players interested in challenging content. The exclusive armor skin is part of the draw.

    There's an existing discussion over whether it's best for the game to attract that niche of players (ANet clearly thinks so; some players clearly disagree) and a separate argument about whether there should be any exclusive rewards (that's a generic question about game design). In the end, however, it's ANet's game and their future that depends on ANet making a good choice. And since they have 10+ years of success at it, I'm inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt that they know better than we do about what will be successful.

    Yes, but what Madd was saying is that if you introduce Fractal Legendary Armor you are telling players not to buy Heart of Thorns because that’s the only current way to get PVE Legendary Armor, through raids. What I’m saying is that they are already telling people that this Armor isn’t for you, if you don’t have the skill for raiding, which in and of itself not really beneficial to entice people to buy Heart of Thorns.

    Just like how so many PvE rewards aren’t for PvP players then (and vice versa)? This isn’t Anet telling people that this isn’t for them but the players doing it to themselves. Everyone has the capacity to get better at raids but they choose not to do so assuming they even try in the first place.

    I’m pretty sure Anet came out and said that up front. Crystal Reid if I recall.

    She said from a skill perspective. That's different.

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Sorry Ayrilana, are you for or against Legendary Fractal Armor?

    Against.

    Because it would take players away from Raiding?

    It would take away those solely doing raids for legendary armor. There’s also no need for another set in the game.

    I’m not against Anet releasing a new armor skin set though such as one that shares the theme of fractal weapons.

    Let’s all be honest here that people are only wanting legendary armor to be obtainable in fractals because they know they can’t get an easy mode in raids so this is the next best thing.

    I already have Legendary Armor, so this isn’t a selfish act to push my own agenda.

    I think there might be people that like doing Fractals, but perhaps don’t like raids. Maybe they find fractals more accessible, I don’t know. What I am an advocate for is choice and options. Just like the Sigil of Nullification, buy off the tp or craft yourself. I honestly think adding a Legendary Fractal would be a good option for those Fractal enthusiasts and those that want Legendary Armor, but don’t want to Raid.

    I’m not sure why raiders would feel threatened by another unique set of Legendary Armor in a completely different pve game type. Unless they feel that Raids are simply so shallow that if introduced, Raids would somehow collapse and not be completed. That’s kinda what it sounds like to me.

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:
    People have mentioned downsides, which are substantial: there would be some disincentive to raid, there would be an influx of people who don't bother to learn how to fractal, hoping to cash in.

    One more downside, that is also important, is that Envoy Armor is not locked just in Raids, it's locked behind Heart of Thorns Raids. You can't get Envoy Armor by running Path of Fire Raids. Adding another PVE version of Legendary Armor (in Core content!) like Fractals is not only going to remove incentive from running Heart of Thorns Raids but also remove incentive from playing (and even buying?) Heart of Thorns in general. While also make it very hard to justify adding another Legendary Armor set in a future expansion, either in future Raids (unlikely) or in any other part of a future expansion.

    They already do this naturally by telling players that Raids are not for everybody and thus stating that Legendary Armor is not for everybody. Which from a marketing stand point is shooting themselves in the foot.

    Um, no. Raids are marketed to a different group of players and the mode has been apparently (according to ANet) more successful than they expected. It draws in and retains players interested in challenging content. The exclusive armor skin is part of the draw.

    There's an existing discussion over whether it's best for the game to attract that niche of players (ANet clearly thinks so; some players clearly disagree) and a separate argument about whether there should be any exclusive rewards (that's a generic question about game design). In the end, however, it's ANet's game and their future that depends on ANet making a good choice. And since they have 10+ years of success at it, I'm inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt that they know better than we do about what will be successful.

    Yes, but what Madd was saying is that if you introduce Fractal Legendary Armor you are telling players not to buy Heart of Thorns because that’s the only current way to get PVE Legendary Armor, through raids. What I’m saying is that they are already telling people that this Armor isn’t for you, if you don’t have the skill for raiding, which in and of itself not really beneficial to entice people to buy Heart of Thorns.

    Just like how so many PvE rewards aren’t for PvP players then (and vice versa)? This isn’t Anet telling people that this isn’t for them but the players doing it to themselves. Everyone has the capacity to get better at raids but they choose not to do so assuming they even try in the first place.

    I’m pretty sure Anet came out and said that up front. Crystal Reid if I recall.

    She said from a skill perspective. That's different.

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Sorry Ayrilana, are you for or against Legendary Fractal Armor?

    Against.

    Because it would take players away from Raiding?

    It would take away those solely doing raids for legendary armor. There’s also no need for another set in the game.

    I’m not against Anet releasing a new armor skin set though such as one that shares the theme of fractal weapons.

    Let’s all be honest that people here are wanting legendary armor to be obtainable in fractals because they know they can’t get an easy mode in raids so this is the next best thing.

    Do you think given the choice between Raids and Fractals, if both had Legendary Armor sets, that people would naturally gravity towards fractals or raids?

    Fractals because it would be the next best thing to an easy mode. No different had legendary armor been released to fractals only and then offered for doing core Tyria world bosses. Players would then do core Tyria world bosses because that would be easier.

    Won't it make clear who is there to raid and enjoy the content and who is there to farm legendary armor?
    And again wvw/pvp legendary armors are way ahead of it.

    I dream of elves in GW2.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @phs.6089 said:
    Just saying Legendary PvP armor is also locked behind HoT.

    It's not locked behind HoT, it's locked behind any expansion, current and future one. Envoy armor is locked specifically behind HoT.

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 5, 2018

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @phs.6089 said:
    Just saying Legendary PvP armor is also locked behind HoT.

    It's not locked behind HoT, it's locked behind any expansion, current and future one. Envoy armor is locked specifically behind HoT.

    Sadly it is. I have an alt with PoF only, would you like some screenshots?
    You can get precursor armor but those need HoT https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Gift_of_Competitive_Dedication

    I dream of elves in GW2.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @phs.6089 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @phs.6089 said:
    Just saying Legendary PvP armor is also locked behind HoT.

    It's not locked behind HoT, it's locked behind any expansion, current and future one. Envoy armor is locked specifically behind HoT.

    Sadly it is. I have an alt with PoF only, would you like some screenshots?

    Which part of it can't you buy without HoT?

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @phs.6089 said:
    Just saying Legendary PvP armor is also locked behind HoT.

    It's not locked behind HoT, it's locked behind any expansion, current and future one. Envoy armor is locked specifically behind HoT.

    Sadly it is. I have an alt with PoF only, would you like some screenshots?

    Which part of it can't you buy without HoT?

    https://imgur.com/a/Al7DO8I

    I dream of elves in GW2.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @phs.6089 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @phs.6089 said:
    Just saying Legendary PvP armor is also locked behind HoT.

    It's not locked behind HoT, it's locked behind any expansion, current and future one. Envoy armor is locked specifically behind HoT.

    Sadly it is. I have an alt with PoF only, would you like some screenshots?

    Which part of it can't you buy without HoT?

    https://imgur.com/a/Al7DO8I

    Well that's a good thing and I honestly didn't know that and there is nothing on the wiki about it. So scratch the "it will remove incentives for HoT" argument, provided the proposed fractal armor does the same. Moving on!

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @phs.6089 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @phs.6089 said:
    Just saying Legendary PvP armor is also locked behind HoT.

    It's not locked behind HoT, it's locked behind any expansion, current and future one. Envoy armor is locked specifically behind HoT.

    Sadly it is. I have an alt with PoF only, would you like some screenshots?

    Which part of it can't you buy without HoT?

    https://imgur.com/a/Al7DO8I

    Is that also the same for the WvW too?

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 5, 2018

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @phs.6089 said:
    Just saying Legendary PvP armor is also locked behind HoT.

    It's not locked behind HoT, it's locked behind any expansion, current and future one. Envoy armor is locked specifically behind HoT.

    Sadly it is. I have an alt with PoF only, would you like some screenshots?

    Which part of it can't you buy without HoT?

    https://imgur.com/a/Al7DO8I

    Is that also the same for the WvW too?

    Prolly I don't wvw and know very little of it. But given not shiny wvw legendary was added with pvp one, should be same.

    I dream of elves in GW2.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @phs.6089 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @phs.6089 said:
    Just saying Legendary PvP armor is also locked behind HoT.

    It's not locked behind HoT, it's locked behind any expansion, current and future one. Envoy armor is locked specifically behind HoT.

    Sadly it is. I have an alt with PoF only, would you like some screenshots?

    Which part of it can't you buy without HoT?

    https://imgur.com/a/Al7DO8I

    Is that also the same for the WvW too?

    Prolly I don't wvw and know very little of it. But given not shiny wvw legendary was added with pvp one, should be same.

    I would assume the components of the gift of war dedication are also locked. Good to know. Fractal Armor would likely require a gift of Fractal dedication, which they could lock behind Heart of Thorns. Done and done.

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @phs.6089 said:
    Just saying Legendary PvP armor is also locked behind HoT.

    It's not locked behind HoT, it's locked behind any expansion, current and future one. Envoy armor is locked specifically behind HoT.

    Sadly it is. I have an alt with PoF only, would you like some screenshots?

    Which part of it can't you buy without HoT?

    https://imgur.com/a/Al7DO8I

    Is that also the same for the WvW too?

    Prolly I don't wvw and know very little of it. But given not shiny wvw legendary was added with pvp one, should be same.

    I would assume the components of the gift of war dedication are also locked. Good to know. Fractal Armor would likely require a gift of Fractal dedication, which they could lock behind Heart of Thorns. Done and done.

    Just went to visit Warmaster Razor on PoF account, for science. It's same for WvW. Legendary parts are for HoT only.

    I dream of elves in GW2.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 5, 2018

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Sorry Ayrilana, are you for or against Legendary Fractal Armor?

    Against.

    Because it would take players away from Raiding?

    If you haven't noticed yet, Ayrilana is always against anything that changes the current status quo. So, now it's against fractal armor, but if Anet decided to implement it tomorrow, we'd hear a resounding defence of it instead.

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    Let’s all be honest here that people are only wanting legendary armor to be obtainable in fractals because they know they can’t get an easy mode in raids so this is the next best thing.

    I have my envoy set already, thank you very much. It didn't change my position on raids and legendary armor exclusivity even a little bit.

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    I’m not sure why raiders would feel threatened by another unique set of Legendary Armor in a completely different pve game type. Unless they feel that Raids are simply so shallow that if introduced, Raids would somehow collapse and not be completed. That’s kinda what it sounds like to me.

    That's how it sounds to me as well. It does seem like many raiders feel that there aren't all that many players that are interested in raids themselves, and they are being sustained only due to the people that came there to farm exclusives (and if those players were given any other option, the "true raiders" would end up alone in a mostly abandoned content).

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • sigur.9453sigur.9453 Member ✭✭✭

    just a quick thought.
    would fractal legendary have the same "issues" like the raid on? i mean IF they would do that, you can be 100% sure to include some amount of CM participation or even LNHB title for such an item? wouldn´t the same people have a problem by getting it? the overlap of people doing fraktal cm & raids is pretty high i guess (no data here, only assuming). not even mentioning the already realy good rewards you get from fractals. (arguable more gold then raids + asc. items). it would be "fairer" to pin it to dungeons (not that i think they would do even that). or hell, open world with endless participation grind if people want that.

  • Tails.9372Tails.9372 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 5, 2018

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    It would take away those solely doing raids for legendary armor.

    Not entirely, sure you would lose some people (those who don't like the content to begin with) but people are asking for fractals to get its own legendary armor set, not to add the Envoy set to other content. You would still have to raid if you want to have the raid set.

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    There’s also no need for another set in the game.

    There is no "need" for anything but that's not really an argument as it says nothing about whether or not having it is a good thing. There's no "need" for mounts either but people generally seem to like them so it's safe to say that their inclusion was a good thing.

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    Let’s all be honest here that people are only wanting legendary armor to be obtainable in fractals because they know they can’t get an easy mode in raids so this is the next best thing.

    That's quite a presumptuous thing to say and I don't see any evidence that backs up this claim, this seems like a cheap way to dismiss anyone who holds a different opinion. Also, the "next best thing" would be the WvW set as it only requires you to grind content on the same difficulty level as the stuff from the OW starting areas.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @sigur.9453 said:
    just a quick thought.
    would fractal legendary have the same "issues" like the raid on? i mean IF they would do that, you can be 100% sure to include some amount of CM participation or even LNHB title for such an item?

    Why? Raid armor does not require raid CMs, after all. And for a good reason.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • sigur.9453sigur.9453 Member ✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @sigur.9453 said:
    just a quick thought.
    would fractal legendary have the same "issues" like the raid on? i mean IF they would do that, you can be 100% sure to include some amount of CM participation or even LNHB title for such an item?

    Why? Raid armor does not require raid CMs, after all. And for a good reason.

    good point, haven´t thought of that. although not missing green on cairn can be a cm for some people ;)

  • Henry.5713Henry.5713 Member ✭✭✭

    The only true difference is that they would not require you to group with nine others, just four others, and that there would be less need to be part of a static group as Fractals is more pug friendly. The real barriers of entry people can't cross, or more truthfully don't want to cross, would remain the same. This armor would still require some dedication and a good level of personal play to be acquired.
    Unless ArenaNet did indeed exclude CMs from the list and possibly even limit the amount of T4s you would have to completely to a one-time thing while allowing you to stick to the lower levels mostly. This would certainly remove the personal play part and even the need to group with others for a big chunk of your grind but one has to wonder why even use Fracatals in the first place then. They might as well go the Open World grind route then.

    Nothing is particularly hard if you divide it into small jobs. Henry Ford

  • @sigur.9453 said:
    just a quick thought.
    would fractal legendary have the same "issues" like the raid on? i mean IF they would do that, you can be 100% sure to include some amount of CM participation or even LNHB title for such an item? wouldn´t the same people have a problem by getting it? the overlap of people doing fraktal cm & raids is pretty high i guess (no data here, only assuming). not even mentioning the already realy good rewards you get from fractals. (arguable more gold then raids + asc. items). it would be "fairer" to pin it to dungeons (not that i think they would do even that). or hell, open world with endless participation grind if people want that.

    I started doing fractals seriously pretty recently and already can complete CM99 pretty routinely and CM100 Arkk is going to happen soon - we just had like 3 sessions of tries without watching guides or anything and we only have 2 very hardcore players with rest being slow, old people who play casually.

    Raids, on the other hand, require a lot more people to be on at the same time and willing to put in the work. I'm sure I could be a passable raider but I am not becaus I don't have a group who I imagine to be willing to put up with me learning very very very slowly.

    It is not the content's difficulty per se but the difficulty of finding 5 MORE likeminded peeps.

    So I'm pretty sure the venn diagram intersection of people CM'ing and Raiding would be much much smaller than one would think.

    Cheers!

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