Possible changes to Rev

Hello everyone! As you all know there are quite a few issues facing rev atm, and I would like to suggest some changes and hear suggestions from you all as to how the class could be changed for the better:

• I can't believe I have to say this but: BUG FIXES, there are so many bugged skills and interactions on rev that at times can cause you to lose fights you should have won or just in general make the class less enjoyable to play
• Sword 4 and 5 need a big nerf, it's obvious how overloaded the skills are with damage as even newer revs like myself can pull off easy 1 shot combos (also was stupid to redesign it this way since it's basically just an upgraded axe for power herald now). Given that anet is not likely to re-redesign the OH sword, I think a damage nerf of anywhere from 15-25% could be acceptable (instead of critting for 8k on 5 you would hit around 6k which is still a solid burst, shackling wave would hit for 5-6k instead of 7-8k)
• Shield 5 should have the root removed. This will assist the rev in sustaining through fights and allow them to kite out of danger while blocking (which is what literally every other class in the game can do with their block skills minus ele's earth shield)
• Staff 2 should have the daze moved to the first hit and have the skill cycle to the second hit if you interrupt a foe.
• This may just be because I need to get used to managing my energy better but I feel it would help to reduce the energy cost of some of rev's weapon skills to allow them to have cd's to use especially at the beginning of a fight (I.E, if you phase in and then use something like sword 4 for burst you have almost no energy left to react if you get hit by one of the billion ccs running around this game (this is problematic for a class that has little to no stab access on it's builds)

I do not have that much experience on rev so maybe these aren't the way to go but I'd like to hear what other suggestion are out there as far as improving the function of the class in pvp. (PVE doesn't matter for balance cause everything works there so that was not a factor in any of my considerations)

biggest improvement i would like on rev is if you run out of upkeep your skill should not automatically cancel whatever it channeling.

@Ario.8964 said:Hello everyone! As you all know there are quite a few issues facing rev atm, and I would like to suggest some changes and hear suggestions from you all as to how the class could be changed for the better:

• I can't believe I have to say this but: BUG FIXES, there are so many bugged skills and interactions on rev that at times can cause you to lose fights you should have won or just in general make the class less enjoyable to play

This would be nice.

• Sword 4 and 5 need a big nerf, it's obvious how overloaded the skills are with damage as even newer revs like myself can pull off easy 1 shot combos (also was stupid to redesign it this way since it's basically just an upgraded axe for power herald now). Given that anet is not likely to re-redesign the OH sword, I think a damage nerf of anywhere from 15-25% could be acceptable (instead of critting for 8k on 5 you would hit around 6k which is still a solid burst, shackling wave would hit for 5-6k instead of 7-8k)

Yeah, no. That reduction would make Revenant less competitive. We are in a very strong sustain meta right now. Even with the current level of damage from off-hand sword Power Herald is like the only meta (or close to meta depending on the opinion of some) build we have. The other weapons also need improving so there is a bit more diversity but I'd not really consider off-hand sword so strong that it needs a damage reduction.

• Shield 5 should have the root removed. This will assist the rev in sustaining through fights and allow them to kite out of danger while blocking (which is what literally every other class in the game can do with their block skills minus ele's earth shield)

This would be nice.

• Staff 2 should have the daze moved to the first hit and have the skill cycle to the second hit if you interrupt a foe.

eeeeeeeeh, no. Moving Daze to the first attack frontloads it. At present the first strike inflicts Vulnerability and the second inflicts Daze. The rest really is fine.

• This may just be because I need to get used to managing my energy better but I feel it would help to reduce the energy cost of some of rev's weapon skills to allow them to have cd's to use especially at the beginning of a fight (I.E, if you phase in and then use something like sword 4 for burst you have almost no energy left to react if you get hit by one of the billion ccs running around this game (this is problematic for a class that has little to no stab access on it's builds)

While some Energy reductions are in order I don't think this is a good example of such a situation. This is a learn to manage Energy issue. If you Phase Traversal in that's 30 Energy and then Shackling Wave is 10 Energy so that is 40 after two moves. Not too bad. However, if you used Deathstrike to teleport in and then used Shackling Wave you've only used 20 Energy. I've just reduced your Energy expenditure in half. If you went for a full burst combo of Deathstrike, Shackling Wave, Unrelenting Assualt, and Precision Strike you've only used 40 Energy and have 60 for defensive purpose. I've used the same amount of Energy as you did but I was able to perform more moves and still have a nice cushion left over for defensive moves. Still, the only time you would have no energy left to react, as per your example, is if you're at 50 Energy. Once you start combat though you go to 100.

Phase Traversal has a longer reach (1200 to 600) but I find that the only time I really need to use it is if someone I'm pursuing is escaping and either Deathstrike is on CD or the person is out of the range of Deathstrike. Otherwise, I stick to Deathstrike since it performs a similar function for a lower Energy cost.

Even then, at the start of a fight, I'm typically not in Shiro anyway. You really should start the fight in Glint for the boons and switch to Shiro after you popped all your upkeeps. Using Burst of Strength before you make your first attack makes that initial burst land harder. Gaze of Darkness will blind your targets and will Reveal any pesky invisible Thieves, Rangers, or Mesmers. Also, Elemental Blast is useful for casting it over anyone defending the node you're on or for helping to finish off the person you just burst. I only switch to Shiro after I've made use of all of those abilities and that will reset me to 100.

@Taobella.6597 said:biggest improvement i would like on rev is if you run out of upkeep your skill should not automatically cancel whatever it channeling.

It makes sense that if you run out of Energy your skills end.

@Ario.8964 said:

• Sword 4 and 5 need a big nerf, it's obvious how overloaded the skills are with damage as even newer revs like myself can pull off easy 1 shot combos (also was stupid to redesign it this way since it's basically just an upgraded axe for power herald now). Given that anet is not likely to re-redesign the OH sword, I think a damage nerf of anywhere from 15-25% could be acceptable (instead of critting for 8k on 5 you would hit around 6k which is still a solid burst, shackling wave would hit for 5-6k instead of 7-8k)

Ewwww, just no... These skills are the only reason rev is somewhat competitive in PvP/WvW roaming atm. And honestly, if you get hit by these skills, you deserve to take 8k damage due to how easy they are to dodge. Either you messed up BIG TIME and should be punished for it, or the Rev baited you hard and should be rewarded for it.

Without the damage on sw4, matches like Herald v Mirage would become literally unwinnable, instead of just mostly unwinnable. Even matches that are in the Rev's favor (Like vs Sbk's or Thiefs) would be very hard to win without the ability to one shot them in that tiny window they give you to do so between their 100000 defensive skills. Even on a more meta scale, it's not really even unfair that Rev's have huge burst skills, because of how little defenses they have. If you didn't have the ability to do a ton of damage in a short amount of time, you would become next to irrelevant since you don't have the ability to stay in a fight very long without a bunch of strong support carry. And when you do have to play defensively, it completely shuts down your bursts. It's actually probably the closest thing pvp has to a balanced class, imo.

@narcx.3570 said:

@Ario.8964 said:

• Sword 4 and 5 need a big nerf, it's obvious how overloaded the skills are with damage as even newer revs like myself can pull off easy 1 shot combos (also was stupid to redesign it this way since it's basically just an upgraded axe for power herald now). Given that anet is not likely to re-redesign the OH sword, I think a damage nerf of anywhere from 15-25% could be acceptable (instead of critting for 8k on 5 you would hit around 6k which is still a solid burst, shackling wave would hit for 5-6k instead of 7-8k)

That's where our views differ. I don't think an entire class should be reliant on one shottng to be able to function in pvp. Nerfs to sword 4 and 5 allow damage to be spread across other rev weapon skills (I didn't mention where it should be put because I frankly just don't know enough about rev to be able to reliably place it). I'd rather see rev actually be able to utilize the other offhand weapons without losing the ability to kill something, otherwise what's the point in having any other weapons even available to the class?

@Dace.8173 said:

@Ario.8964 said:Hello everyone! As you all know there are quite a few issues facing rev atm, and I would like to suggest some changes and hear suggestions from you all as to how the class could be changed for the better:

• I can't believe I have to say this but: BUG FIXES, there are so many bugged skills and interactions on rev that at times can cause you to lose fights you should have won or just in general make the class less enjoyable to play

• Sword 4 and 5 need a big nerf, it's obvious how overloaded the skills are with damage as even newer revs like myself can pull off easy 1 shot combos (also was stupid to redesign it this way since it's basically just an upgraded axe for power herald now). Given that anet is not likely to re-redesign the OH sword, I think a damage nerf of anywhere from 15-25% could be acceptable (instead of critting for 8k on 5 you would hit around 6k which is still a solid burst, shackling wave would hit for 5-6k instead of 7-8k)

• Shield 5 should have the root removed. This will assist the rev in sustaining through fights and allow them to kite out of danger while blocking (which is what literally every other class in the game can do with their block skills minus ele's earth shield)

• Staff 2 should have the daze moved to the first hit and have the skill cycle to the second hit if you interrupt a foe.

• This may just be because I need to get used to managing my energy better but I feel it would help to reduce the energy cost of some of rev's weapon skills to allow them to have cd's to use especially at the beginning of a fight (I.E, if you phase in and then use something like sword 4 for burst you have almost no energy left to react if you get hit by one of the billion ccs running around this game (this is problematic for a class that has little to no stab access on it's builds)

@Taobella.6597 said:biggest improvement i would like on rev is if you run out of upkeep your skill should not automatically cancel whatever it channeling.

My argument for staff was that since the second hit is a high damage hit, it would be a good design function to combo an interrupt requirement with a high damage blow afterwards. I'm fine with the skill as it is now, just thought it may be a nice function.

Thanks for the recommendations on energy management. I'll take that into account more when I'm playing.

@Ario.8964 said:

@narcx.3570 said:

@Ario.8964 said:

• Sword 4 and 5 need a big nerf, it's obvious how overloaded the skills are with damage as even newer revs like myself can pull off easy 1 shot combos (also was stupid to redesign it this way since it's basically just an upgraded axe for power herald now). Given that anet is not likely to re-redesign the OH sword, I think a damage nerf of anywhere from 15-25% could be acceptable (instead of critting for 8k on 5 you would hit around 6k which is still a solid burst, shackling wave would hit for 5-6k instead of 7-8k)

Ummmm no, it would not. Deathstrike and Shackling Wave were buffed not too long ago and it wasn't like damage was spread across other weapons or damage was removed from other weapons to make those two skills stronger. Damage for them is not so strong that other weapons couldn't also be given more damage. This isn't an either or situation or a zero-sum. Those two skills simply are not an actual problem. I don't even get what makes you think that they are A. a problem, B. hold back damage Revenant in a more general sense or C. that their reduction would result in higher damage for other weapons. At present it just seems like you are indicating they are a problem because they do higher damage than everything else.

This suggestion does more harm than good and it would be far more productive to push for other weapons to be brought up to the level of off-hand sword. Most of the weapons Revenant has are underpowered and off-hand sword actually exists at a more balanced power level to make it competitive in a meta that has a lot of sustain and/or damage mitigation or evades/dodges. With lower damage Revenant would need to drag fights out longer in order to do enough damage to get past some of the more sturdier professions and Elites.

To put this in perspective, against a Warrior, or Spellbreaker to be more specific, the damage done can completely be negated and even if it is not negated, it could be completely healed. A Mirage would be able to heal half that damage but the Mirage's evade skill makes it far more likely that you may miss the shot altogether and leave yourself open to their counter-attack. With Holosmithit could be completely healed as well.

Revenant needs weapon buffs in general. Off-hand sword is fine. What needs to occur is that the other weapons (aside from staff) need to be brought in line with Deathstrike and Shackling Wave. If you lowered those two skills then Revenant becomes less and less viable in PvP and WvW. Putting the damage elsewhere wouldn't solve that problem because the logic you used to lower them would demand that other skills not rise to a similar level of damage. If your suggestion were implemented at best Revenant would be left with using additional mediocre weapons that barely make them competitive. On the off chance that another weapon actually was raised to the same level that Deathstrike and Shackling Wave were at then all you've really done is switch off-hand sword for another weapon.

Shackling Wave is largely dependent on having high stacks of might for any serious damage.

The damage is fine on power herald that their low sustain demands it to be high.

Reducing rev's damage will completely destroy rev. Why? revenant has barely any sustainability and a really shitty heal. Also any good player will know the revs burst rotation wich is rather easy to dodge. it's mostly the bad players that don't know what attacks to evade that have trouble with revenant.

Revenant together with Thief and Weaver are definitely the top hardest classes to play. If you're getting killed by a revenant you just got outplayed. That's it.

@Dace.8173 said:

@Ario.8964 said:Hello everyone! As you all know there are quite a few issues facing rev atm, and I would like to suggest some changes and hear suggestions from you all as to how the class could be changed for the better:

• I can't believe I have to say this but: BUG FIXES, there are so many bugged skills and interactions on rev that at times can cause you to lose fights you should have won or just in general make the class less enjoyable to play

• Sword 4 and 5 need a big nerf, it's obvious how overloaded the skills are with damage as even newer revs like myself can pull off easy 1 shot combos (also was stupid to redesign it this way since it's basically just an upgraded axe for power herald now). Given that anet is not likely to re-redesign the OH sword, I think a damage nerf of anywhere from 15-25% could be acceptable (instead of critting for 8k on 5 you would hit around 6k which is still a solid burst, shackling wave would hit for 5-6k instead of 7-8k)

Agree here. Yes it's incredibly bursty, but so is anything else that will engage you 1v1. The other day I got ganked by a Power Mirage. My screen flashed pink and I was dead, as in I didn't even have the chance to swing back.

That's not an excuse obv, the damage in WvW is stupid high, but Revenant OH sword isn't the only problem, and you can't address one in a vacuum.

If anything, I'd like them to buff the damage on staff 1 / 2 so it makes sense to use it for more than just 3-5.

EDIT:Let me add,

@Dace.8173 said:

@Taobella.6597 said:biggest improvement i would like on rev is if you run out of upkeep your skill should not automatically cancel whatever it channeling.

I think that makes the most sense, since once you run out of energy and all your upkeeps end, you right away begin to recharge energy. When I've played sloppy and didn't manage energy, when I noticed I overextended and didn't want to shift legendaries, I only had to wait a few seconds before I could reactivate my abilities.

In this vein, I wish there was a way of turning off your upkeeps without being forced to consume them, and thereby put them on cooldown, but I guess that is just how they wanted it designed so / shrug.

@Ario.8964 said:That's where our views differ. I don't think an entire class should be reliant on one shottng to be able to function in pvp. Nerfs to sword 4 and 5 allow damage to be spread across other rev weapon skills (I didn't mention where it should be put because I frankly just don't know enough about rev to be able to reliably place it). I'd rather see rev actually be able to utilize the other offhand weapons without losing the ability to kill something, otherwise what's the point in having any other weapons even available to the class?

Wherever you put the damage, Revenant still needs to be able to dole out large amounts of burst dps to be successful since it lacks the sustain to hang in a fight long enough to deliver dps in a more steady fashion--this is especially true against focus fire, which you almost always will be the #1 target of. Even if Rev had enough sustain to justify nerfing it's burst, it still wouldn't work due to the nature of the energy system... The more effort you put into doing damage, the less defense you have, and vice versa. This is what makes Rev more of an all or nothing class... You can try to burst somebody's face off, or you can try to string i-frames and kite around the map--but you can't do both, which is why either of the options being strong is largely okay from a balance point of view.

@Snellibee.2761 said:Reducing rev's damage will completely destroy rev. Why? revenant has barely any sustainability and a really kitten heal. Also any good player will know the revs burst rotation wich is rather easy to dodge. it's mostly the bad players that don't know what attacks to evade that have trouble with revenant.

This exactly... Even at its HoT release, when Rev was doing crazy broken damage, all of it was delivered with such obvious telegraphs it still seemed somewhat fair. Overall, Anet does a pretty good job about making huge damaging abilities have big obvious animations... I mean, sometimes they miss the mark like they did with Holosmith at release by forgetting that they can just hide in stealth for all of those huge animations, but for the most part this is something they actually do well.