Comprehensive Core Revenant Suggestions — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Comprehensive Core Revenant Suggestions

Pterikdactyl.7630Pterikdactyl.7630 Member ✭✭✭✭
edited January 14, 2019 in Revenant

Yes, it's that time of month again when I suggest changes to the class I am most passionate about. I can't help myself. These changes are largely focused towards improving core Revenant and off-meta builds in PvP/WvW while attempting to minimize any meta-changing impact it would have on PvE. Explanation at the bottom.


TRAIT CHANGES

INVOCATION

For the most part, Invocation is a very solid traitline, arguably the best. It is clearly a fantastic choice for the meta Herald PvP build and a great choice for others. However, there are a couple underperforming aspects in the line. I personally believe that fury needs a non-DPS interaction if it is going to maintain 2 minors dedicated to it, considering Invocation is the jack-of-all-trades line and shouldn't be inherently favoring DPS specs more (see Arcane for Elementalist and Trickery for Thief for close comparisons). Song of the Mists is the trait that I have given the most attention to, as it should be a strictly utility choice since the other two GM options allow for increased DPS. Overall, this traitline could use some polish to its support potential.

MAJOR ADEPT

  • Fierce Infusion: Additionally, increase outgoing healing (10%) when you have fury.

MAJOR MASTER

  • Spirit Boon: Additionally, grant yourself swiftness (10s) when swapping legends. Works out of combat.
  • [Spirit Boon - Shiro]: Now grants quickness (3s) instead of might.

  • Rapid Flow: Removed.

  • Harmonious Conduit: Reintroduced from old Herald traitline, replacing Rapid Flow: when you break a stun, break stuns for nearby allies (600 radius).
  • Incensed Response: Reduced 2 stacks of might only applies to Herald in PvP; it is now 5 stacks for core Revenant and Renegade in PvP.

MAJOR GRANDMASTER

  • Song of the Mists: Radius has been increased to 300. No legends inflict damage or damaging conditions anymore.
  • [Song of the Mists - Assassin]: Now dazes (0.5s) nearby foes and restores endurance (25) to nearby allies. Vulnerability application stays.
  • [Song of the Mists - Demon]: Now corrupts 2 boons from nearby foes. Slow application stays.
  • [Song of the Mists - Centaur]: Now also applies blind (5s) to nearby foes.
  • [Song of the Mists - Dwarf]: Now grants a flat amount of barrier, which is granted to nearby allies as well. Weakness application stays.
  • [Song of the Mists - Glint]: Now converts 2 conditions to boons for nearby allies. Chill application stays.

  • Rolling Mists: Threshold increased to 15.

DEVASTATION

To me, this traitline is very solid and doesn’t need much changing. However, the change to Expose Defenses is implemented very poorly considering Shiro, its corresponding legend, has a 50e cost for its elite. It makes for awkward synergy with its other two minors and further pigeonholes one into using sword. Also, Jade Echo is a filler trait that should be replaced with something more interesting and versatile. The adept line lacks solid selection diversity.

MINOR ADEPT

  • Expose Defenses: Now refreshes when swapping legends instead of when using an elite skill.

MAJOR ADEPT

  • Jade Echo: Removed.
  • Swift Gale: Reintroduced from old Herald traitline, replacing Jade Echoes: Gain superspeed (3s) when you successfully break a stun.

CORRUPTION

Has some great traits within it, but also some underperformers. Overall, could use some enhancement in resistance/condition management, as well as restoring some of its old condition pressure.

MAJOR ADEPT

  • Replenishing Despair: Now heals you for conditions you apply instead of conditions applied to you. ICD removed, but numbers adjusted accordingly.
  • Demonic Defiance: Now also grants 1.5s of resistance when using non-Mallyx legend skills.
  • Venom Enhancement: ICD reduced to 5s.

MINOR MASTER

  • Opportune Extraction: Threshold reduced to 3 to allow for easier synergy with slower weapons like hammer.

MAJOR MASTER

  • Abyssal Chill: Now reverted to applying 2 stacks for 3 seconds instead of 1 stack for 6 seconds.
  • Spontaneous Destruction: Additionally, gain might (2x, 8s) whenever you remove a boon. No ICD, but does not scale with multiple targets.

MAJOR GRANDMASTER

  • Diabolic Inferno: Now is also a blast finisher.
  • Maniacal Persistence: Now reverted to applying 4 stacks for 5 seconds instead of 2 stacks for 10 seconds. Additionally, resistance applied to you reduces incoming condition duration (33%).

RETRIBUTION

Suggested changes removed as the traitline has recently seen attention and is in a better spot now.

SALVATION

The traitline I am most passionate about changing. My suggestions are a huge overhaul to the line. There are significant buffs within the line, but my main goals with these are to make the traitline more flexible for all builds, to further emphasize the soft control aspect of the traitline, and to allow for dedicated healers to still invest in more self-sustain while not sacrificing so much healing potency. Beyond the healing modifiers, the traitline is very lackluster and needs a lot of attention. Since there are so many changes, the new “tooltips” without reference to the previous iteration.

MINOR ADEPT

  • Blinding Truths: Blind nearby foes when using a healing skill (5s, ICD: 3s). Healing skills gain reduced energy cost (100%).

MAJOR ADEPT

  • Tranquil Benediction: Renewing Wave (Staff 4) grants regeneration and swiftness (8s). Removing a condition from an ally heals them.
  • Disarming Riposte: Disabling a foe blinds them (5s). Blindness you apply also applies slow (3s, ICD: 20s).
  • Preservation of Life: New trait. Cast Lesser Energy Expulsion (Ventari elite) when reviving an ally (ICD: 45s). Gain increased revive speed (10%). Allies nearby Ventari’s tablet are revived faster (10%).

MINOR MASTER

  • Hardened Foundation: Gain increased healing power (120). Your outgoing healing is increased (15%) when above the health threshold (75%).

MAJOR MASTER

  • Bolster Fortifications: Reintroduced from old Herald traitline: Grant protection (2s) to nearby allies when using a healing skill (600 radius). Additionally, increase incoming healing when you have protection (5%).
  • Eluding Nullification: Dodge rolling blinds nearby foes and removes a condition from nearby allies (240 radius, 10s ICD per legend).
  • Invoking Harmony: Increase outgoing healing (20%) when invoking a legend (10s).

MINOR GRANDMASTER

  • Serene Rejuvenation: Increase outgoing healing (20%). Healing skills gain reduced cooldown (20%).

MAJOR GRANDMASTER

  • Natural Abundance: Heal yourself when using a legend skill. (Value would naturally need to be adjusted down since it would apply instantly to you and be functional outside of Ventari)
  • Momentary Pacification: Immobilize (3s) and slow (3s) nearby foes when using an elite skill (ICD: 30s, 360 radius). Non-damaging conditions gain increased duration (25%).
  • Selfless Amplification: Increase outgoing healing based on a percentage of your healing power (1.5% per 100 healing power). Additionally, increase the radius of Legendary Centaur Stance skills by 33%.


LEGEND SKILL CHANGES


MALLYX

While Mallyx does provide a very interesting set of skills, it has not been able to keep up with the powercreep of other specs in the game, especially post-PoF. It is naturally intended to be a melee/close-range brawler, but lacks both consistent pressure and self-sustain. Unyielding Anguish has been changed significantly in functionality to allow for better ranged pressure, while also increasing its mobility and kiting potential. Embrace the Darkness is a very lackluster skill that lacks flavor since the removal of its condition copy mechanic, so a new functionality of it enhancing other Demon skills has been added onto it. While the new benefits are pretty significant, they do come at the cost of a significant energy drain. Removing the stat bonus from EtD would probably necessitate a damage increase in other skills to make up for the lost DPS, but those are numbers that I don't feel comfortable addressing.

  • Pain Absorption: Cast time reduced from 0.5s to 0.25s. Now also grants 0.25s of stability to self immediately when skill is activated.

  • Unyielding Anguish: Functionality has been changed to be a two-part skill:

  • 1. Unyielding Anguish: "Create a demonic field at the targeted area that torments and chills foes." This no longer causes you to leap to the affected area. Reduced energy cost to 20. Cast time has been reduced from 0.75 seconds to 0.5 seconds.
  • 2. Demonic Manifestation: "Consume yourself into the darkness, shadowstepping to your currently active Unyielding Anguish." Energy cost: 10. Cast time: 0.25 seconds.

  • Embrace the Darkness: Now instant cast. No longer grants increased stats. Instead, Legendary Demon skills gain improved effects:

  • [EtD]: Empowering Misery: Gain might (2x, 5s) per condition currently active on you upon healing.
  • [EtD]: Pain Absorption: Also applies protection (3s).
  • [EtD]: Banish Enchantment: When reaching the target, this skill explodes, removing boons from foes in the surrounding area (180 radius).
  • [EtD]: Unyielding Anguish: Increase range by 300.
  • [EtD]: Demonic Manifestation: Increase range by 300. Applies burn [4s] to foes in your field if you shadowstep inside it.

JALIS

A glaring issue I see with the legend is that its stunbreak is not only 40 energy, but it also takes 1.25 seconds to cast. For being the tanky/resilient legend, this is an issue, so a stunbreak has been added to Inspiring Reinforcement so it has two different options. Otherwise, this is just some general polish to the legend to bring it up a bit.

  • Soothing Stone: Cast time reduced from 1 second to 0.75 seconds.
  • Vengeful Hammers: Now grants barrier instead of healing.
  • Inspiring Reinforcement: Now also breaks stun and pulses retaliation.
  • Forced Engagement: No longer functions as a projectile.
  • Rite of the Great Dwarf: Cast time reduced from 1.25 seconds to 1 second.

VENTARI

Against stationary targets, Ventari skills function just fine. However, the tablet lacks adaptability and reactability, making it difficult to use in PvP and WvW due to the naturally mobile nature of the game. A couple traits from Salvation were baked into the tablet baseline in order to provide more trait variety. A stunbreak has also been added as not having one severely limits its potential. Between these and the Salvation changes, I think this would dramatically increase Ventari's viability in both PvP and WvW (small- and large-scale).

  • Project Tranquility: Now also pulses regeneration (2s) per interval (3s). (Taken from Nourishing Roots in Salvation)
  • Ventari’s Will: Cooldown reduced from 3 seconds to 2 seconds. Reduced healing modifier by 33%.
  • Natural Harmony: Decrease delay from 1 second to 0.5 seconds. Alacrity application is now baseline.
  • Purifying Essence: Reduced cooldown from 5 seconds to 3 seconds. Reduced energy cost from 25 to 20. No longer heals per condition cleansed. Now breaks stun.
  • Protective Solace: Blocked projectiles now heal all allies within the dome for a small amount.



WEAPON SKILL CHANGES

MACE

  • Searing Fissure: Decrease cast time from 0.75s to 0.5s.
  • Echoing Eruption: Now evades for 0.75s.

AXE

  • Frigid Blitz: Increase projectile velocity by 33%. Now shadowsteps you regardless of whether the attack lands or not (blindness/evasion currently negates it).
  • Temporal Rift: Decrease activation duration from 1s to 0.5s. Increase pull width from 300 to 320.

STAFF

  • Punishing Sweep: Cast time reduced from 0.75s to 0.5s.
  • Debilitating Slam: Energy cost reduced from 10 to 5.
  • Renewing Wave: Cast time reduced from 1s to 0.5s.

HAMMER:

  • Hammer Bolt: Aftercast decreased by 0.25s. Projectile velocity increased by 15%.



WHY SO MANY BUFFS?

From a PvP and WvW perspective, Revenant struggles beyond the meta power Herald builds (roaming/zerging). One can find a certain degree of success with other builds, such as a healer Herald, but generally speaking, these builds do not perform up to part with equivalent builds from other classes. Core Rev as a whole is underperforming, being heavily reliant on Herald. My intention with these changes is not to break the current meta builds for Herald, or even to necessarily create new meta builds, but to increase general viability for underperforming aspects of the core class to further increase build diversity and viability, whether they become meta or not. Ultimately I would like for the core class to become a respectable choice. Are some of my suggested changes too much? Perhaps, but of course these are only ideas that I am unable to test. Revenant is my favorite profession in the game and I would like to see it perform better than it currently does. A recent Reddit poll illustrates that many others feel the same way:


Updated Dec 2, 2018



Anyways, that is all. I appreciate any responses and feedback to this.

Comprehensive Core Revenant Suggestions
Made in the Mists [REV] - Currently on Devona's Rest

Comments

  • Nice looking list!

    Most of the changes look balanced too. Just from scanning through there's a couple points;

    • Purifying Essence: Reduced cooldown from 5 seconds to 3 seconds. Reduced energy cost from 25 to 20. No longer heals per condition cleansed. Now breaks stun.
      Stunbreak every 3 seconds might be too strong for that energy cost on this legend, not entirely sure. It shouldn't be able to be used more often than the energy regen time after which you can use shiro's stunbreak imo.

    • Ventari’s Will: Cooldown reduced from 3 seconds to 2 seconds. Reduced healing modifier by 33%.
      I guess this is for smoother tablet movement? But it should line up with Blinding Truths (3s CD) so either lower that one to 2 or keep VW at 3. Lower healing seems fine with baseline regen application. Same thing goes for bolster fortifications CD. Either 2 or 3 across the board for ease of use.

    • Invoking Harmony: Increase outgoing healing (20%) when invoking a legend (10s).
      Still a dull trait imo, also don't see it ever competing with the new (old) protection on heal trait. Mabey add something like any heal amount lost to overheal becomes a heal fragment/boon/returns energy? I'm not very good with trait ideas admittedly.

    Last one is more of a personal preference for core and renegade. Ideally the new swiftness on spirit boon would not compete with incensed response. Mabey it's too greedy of me, but IR is hard to pass up on. It's hard to fit swiftness anywhere else i'll admit.

    Other than that, great write-up. :+1:

    Obèlíx [GAUL] - Gandara(EU).
    Condi Ventari Build

  • Pterikdactyl.7630Pterikdactyl.7630 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2, 2018
    • Purifying Essence: Reduced cooldown from 5 seconds to 3 seconds. Reduced energy cost from 25 to 20. No longer heals per condition cleansed. Now breaks stun.
      Stunbreak every 3 seconds might be too strong for that energy cost on this legend, not entirely sure. It shouldn't be able to be used more often than the energy regen time after which you can use shiro's stunbreak imo.

    Overall, I think this is a fair change because although other legends' stunbreaks are more expensive, they can be spammed with no cooldown as long as the energy is there. I see your point though, I just think that the lower cooldown is important to keep up with the constant condi pressure that exists in this game now.

    • Ventari’s Will: Cooldown reduced from 3 seconds to 2 seconds. Reduced healing modifier by 33%.
      I guess this is for smoother tablet movement? But it should line up with Blinding Truths (3s CD) so either lower that one to 2 or keep VW at 3. Lower healing seems fine with baseline regen application. Same thing goes for bolster fortifications CD. Either 2 or 3 across the board for ease of use.

    Yes, for smoother tablet movement. I kept Blinding Truths at 3s ICD because with my change to Serene Rejuvenation, Ventari's Will would have a 1.6s cooldown. This would be too frequent blind spam (especially with the other traits), so it would allow for a blind almost every other time you move the tablet. Admittedly that extra 0.2s is awkward. I hadn't thought about Bolster Fortifications interaction though, so thank you for pointing that out. I think a 3s ICD would be fair for it too. I would ideally like for it to have a longer duration and ICD so it is more applicable outside of Ventari, but I wouldn't want it to become too strong.

    • Invoking Harmony: Increase outgoing healing (20%) when invoking a legend (10s).
      Still a dull trait imo, also don't see it ever competing with the new (old) protection on heal trait. Mabey add something like any heal amount lost to overheal becomes a heal fragment/boon/returns energy? I'm not very good with trait ideas admittedly.

    Hmm, I think the trait is pretty good if going for a pure healer. Maybe instead of Bolster Fortifications having increasing incoming healing, Invoking Harmony could, but at 10% instead?

    Last one is more of a personal preference for core and renegade. Ideally the new swiftness on spirit boon would not compete with incensed response. Mabey it's too greedy of me, but IR is hard to pass up on. It's hard to fit swiftness anywhere else i'll admit.

    Oh yes, I totally totally feel you on this. I have been playing a lot more core Rev and this is the biggest dilemma for me too. I have been playing Shiro/Ventari lately so I don't feel the impact nearly as much, but with IR being so important for core Rev's damage, it's painful to not be able to have better access to swiftness. This is one of the reasons I added swiftness to traited staff 4 (Tranquil Benediction). It could also potentially be added to one of the minor Invocation traits, but would probably only be possible to have half-uptime this way, which would still create a problem.

    Other than that, great write-up. :+1:

    Hey @WraithOfStealth.1624 , I really appreciate your response. I know you play Core Rev a lot so I greatly value your input.

    Comprehensive Core Revenant Suggestions
    Made in the Mists [REV] - Currently on Devona's Rest

  • Curennos.9307Curennos.9307 Member ✭✭✭

    Very nice list! I've been putzing around with condi renegade recently and your suggestions all look kitten lovely. However, I'd like to point out that Rev has essentially one bar's worth of condi weapons - mace + axe, two if you take renegade (but since this is aimed at core rev - and because I find shortbow just...godawful, let's ignore that for now).

    I do think that rev needs another condi weapon - not a new weapon, but built into an existing one in order to avoid bloat. I'm hoping Anet considers sprinkling some nice torment/bleed/burns onto hammer.

    Staff is already a great weapon with some healing, cleanse, evade, projectile block, interrupt/weakness, etc. It's a really great weapon, so adding condis to it probably isn't a good idea.

    Sword - both off and main - is already used in the current herald build.

    This leaves hammer, which I feel is well deserving of some condi-buffs, both through the process of elimination and because of its place (or lack of) in the meta. Insofar as I'm aware, it's really only used in group( or 'group', to imply ballgroup/zerg) WvW. Addings condis to hammer is highly unlikely to break anything in that regard. Furthermore, it would provide an (imo) much needed alternative to shortbow. Forgive me, just gotta slip that in here - I know you focused this on core rev, but I have been mashing my face against renegade + shortbow and it has been suffering. I won't claim to have a really good idea of how much condi application to scatter on hammer or where, but...yeah.

    Lastly, while I love the Mallyx changes, I think it's lacking a little cross-Legend synergy. Shiro can stun with jade winds, then do...whatever they went, Jalis can use the skill and doesn't have to use other skills to get the full benefit. Ventari's skills are stronger to compensate for that they work off each other and REQUIRE that the player use them that way.

    The effect is loaded into the skill, whereas your suggestion for Mallyx would be just placing an additional energy requirement on using the other utility skills. Which is fine! But, I think it'd be better if the stat boost (10-15%) was - instead of being outright removed - shifted to the end of the skill, where the player gets the boost only if they run out of energy while the elite is active or...something. Some way that gives the stat boost somewhere that ISN'T at the same time as the elite is active, but also doesn't allow someone to just turn on/off the elite to get a juicy stat boost at effectively zero cost...or maybe shorten the duration, but let the elite be used as either a skill-boost, or turned on off for 6 energy cost and then let 'em enjoy the shorter duration? Not sure. TLDR amazing job on Mallyx, I think there could be the smallest of little extra oomphs if you're going to lock the elite in with the utility skills so hard - either on the skills themselves or something that works on other stuff.

  • Pterikdactyl.7630Pterikdactyl.7630 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 3, 2018

    @Curennos.9307 said:
    Very nice list! I've been putzing around with condi renegade recently and your suggestions all look kitten lovely. However, I'd like to point out that Rev has essentially one bar's worth of condi weapons - mace + axe, two if you take renegade (but since this is aimed at core rev - and because I find shortbow just...godawful, let's ignore that for now).

    I do think that rev needs another condi weapon - not a new weapon, but built into an existing one in order to avoid bloat. I'm hoping Anet considers sprinkling some nice torment/bleed/burns onto hammer.

    Staff is already a great weapon with some healing, cleanse, evade, projectile block, interrupt/weakness, etc. It's a really great weapon, so adding condis to it probably isn't a good idea.

    Sword - both off and main - is already used in the current herald build.

    This leaves hammer, which I feel is well deserving of some condi-buffs, both through the process of elimination and because of its place (or lack of) in the meta. Insofar as I'm aware, it's really only used in group( or 'group', to imply ballgroup/zerg) WvW. Addings condis to hammer is highly unlikely to break anything in that regard. Furthermore, it would provide an (imo) much needed alternative to shortbow. Forgive me, just gotta slip that in here - I know you focused this on core rev, but I have been mashing my face against renegade + shortbow and it has been suffering. I won't claim to have a really good idea of how much condi application to scatter on hammer or where, but...yeah.

    Lastly, while I love the Mallyx changes, I think it's lacking a little cross-Legend synergy. Shiro can stun with jade winds, then do...whatever they went, Jalis can use the skill and doesn't have to use other skills to get the full benefit. Ventari's skills are stronger to compensate for that they work off each other and REQUIRE that the player use them that way.

    The effect is loaded into the skill, whereas your suggestion for Mallyx would be just placing an additional energy requirement on using the other utility skills. Which is fine! But, I think it'd be better if the stat boost (10-15%) was - instead of being outright removed - shifted to the end of the skill, where the player gets the boost only if they run out of energy while the elite is active or...something. Some way that gives the stat boost somewhere that ISN'T at the same time as the elite is active, but also doesn't allow someone to just turn on/off the elite to get a juicy stat boost at effectively zero cost...or maybe shorten the duration, but let the elite be used as either a skill-boost, or turned on off for 6 energy cost and then let 'em enjoy the shorter duration? Not sure. TLDR amazing job on Mallyx, I think there could be the smallest of little extra oomphs if you're going to lock the elite in with the utility skills so hard - either on the skills themselves or something that works on other stuff.

    Yeah, I do understand the desire for an additional condi weapon for core. I think core Rev as a whole is in a dilemma for weapons: no access to a defensive offhand or a mid to long-range condi mainhand. I was thinking maybe mace's AA could be extended to like 300-400 range, but I'm not really sure how that idea would work in practice. I'd hesitate with changing hammer like that because if conditions got added onto it, it'd probably receive a nerf in its power damage, which would be really unfortunate for WvW Revs or anyone else who uses it a lot. Well, they could change the dark field on hammer 4 to an ice field so you could apply chill (and therefore torment) with every AA. There is still mainhand sword, which does decent condition damage strictly because of sword 2. I feel like Abyssal Chill was their answer to lack of an alternative condition weapon.

    In regards to Mallyx, I'd say a big reason there's such a big difference with it between say Jalis and Shiro is that it is an upkeep skill. It can't necessarily have as much of an impact as Jade Winds or RotGD. It could maybe use something additional, but I don't really know what. I still kept the torment application but perhaps removing the stats would upset too many people? I was just afraid of making it too strong because this whole post is buff-city as is. The nice thing about it being instant is that you could activate it right before your skill finishes and then immediately deactivate it. Admittedly though it would still be expensive to do. I'm not really sure lol, I just think the current skill is so boring.

    Thank you for your response! The discussion is very much appreciated.

    Comprehensive Core Revenant Suggestions
    Made in the Mists [REV] - Currently on Devona's Rest

  • All I want for core revenant is just two things:

    • All legend skills usable underwater. For example, while underwater, the Ventari tablet could be made to closely follow behind the revenant, like the toxic spore back item, then make the skill targetable on both enemies and allies. Using it while targeting anything would make the tablet 'attach' to that target and follow it instead.
    • Core revenant didn't get new weapons when making them a no-swap profession was discarded. Eventually they got the trident, but they are still missing a 1h ranged weapon and a second condition weapon in their core kit. Both of those could be the same weapon. For example, a main hand throwing axe that deals conditions like weakness, crippled, chilled, poison, bleeding, burning or torment with its attacks.
  • Pterikdactyl.7630Pterikdactyl.7630 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 3, 2018

    @MithranArkanere.8957 said:
    All I want for core revenant is just two things:

    • All legend skills usable underwater. For example, while underwater, the Ventari tablet could be made to closely follow behind the revenant, like the toxic spore back item, then make the skill targetable on both enemies and allies. Using it while targeting anything would make the tablet 'attach' to that target and follow it instead.
    • Core revenant didn't get new weapons when making them a no-swap profession was discarded. Eventually they got the trident, but they are still missing a 1h ranged weapon and a second condition weapon in their core kit. Both of those could be the same weapon. For example, a main hand throwing axe that deals conditions like weakness, crippled, chilled, poison, bleeding, burning or torment with its attacks.

    Yeah I am still annoyed that we can't use Ventari underwater. I would be ecstatic if it was simply all PBAoE effects. Back when I did fractals I got to T4 on my Ventari Rev and always had to skip the Underwater daily because it was my only ascended gear and I was 100% useless there.

    They need a defensive offhand weapon as well. I would love a focus personally.

    Comprehensive Core Revenant Suggestions
    Made in the Mists [REV] - Currently on Devona's Rest

  • Curennos.9307Curennos.9307 Member ✭✭✭

    @Pterikdactyl.7630 said:

    @Curennos.9307 said:
    Very nice list! I've been putzing around with condi renegade recently and your suggestions all look kitten lovely. However, I'd like to point out that Rev has essentially one bar's worth of condi weapons - mace + axe, two if you take renegade (but since this is aimed at core rev - and because I find shortbow just...godawful, let's ignore that for now).

    I do think that rev needs another condi weapon - not a new weapon, but built into an existing one in order to avoid bloat. I'm hoping Anet considers sprinkling some nice torment/bleed/burns onto hammer.

    Staff is already a great weapon with some healing, cleanse, evade, projectile block, interrupt/weakness, etc. It's a really great weapon, so adding condis to it probably isn't a good idea.

    Sword - both off and main - is already used in the current herald build.

    This leaves hammer, which I feel is well deserving of some condi-buffs, both through the process of elimination and because of its place (or lack of) in the meta. Insofar as I'm aware, it's really only used in group( or 'group', to imply ballgroup/zerg) WvW. Addings condis to hammer is highly unlikely to break anything in that regard. Furthermore, it would provide an (imo) much needed alternative to shortbow. Forgive me, just gotta slip that in here - I know you focused this on core rev, but I have been mashing my face against renegade + shortbow and it has been suffering. I won't claim to have a really good idea of how much condi application to scatter on hammer or where, but...yeah.

    Lastly, while I love the Mallyx changes, I think it's lacking a little cross-Legend synergy. Shiro can stun with jade winds, then do...whatever they went, Jalis can use the skill and doesn't have to use other skills to get the full benefit. Ventari's skills are stronger to compensate for that they work off each other and REQUIRE that the player use them that way.

    The effect is loaded into the skill, whereas your suggestion for Mallyx would be just placing an additional energy requirement on using the other utility skills. Which is fine! But, I think it'd be better if the stat boost (10-15%) was - instead of being outright removed - shifted to the end of the skill, where the player gets the boost only if they run out of energy while the elite is active or...something. Some way that gives the stat boost somewhere that ISN'T at the same time as the elite is active, but also doesn't allow someone to just turn on/off the elite to get a juicy stat boost at effectively zero cost...or maybe shorten the duration, but let the elite be used as either a skill-boost, or turned on off for 6 energy cost and then let 'em enjoy the shorter duration? Not sure. TLDR amazing job on Mallyx, I think there could be the smallest of little extra oomphs if you're going to lock the elite in with the utility skills so hard - either on the skills themselves or something that works on other stuff.

    Yeah, I do understand the desire for an additional condi weapon for core. I think core Rev as a whole is in a dilemma for weapons: no access to a defensive offhand or a mid to long-range condi mainhand. I was thinking maybe mace's AA could be extended to like 300-400 range, but I'm not really sure how that idea would work in practice. I'd hesitate with changing hammer like that because if conditions got added onto it, it'd probably receive a nerf in its power damage, which would be really unfortunate for WvW Revs or anyone else who uses it a lot. Well, they could change the dark field on hammer 4 to an ice field so you could apply chill (and therefore torment) with every AA. There is still mainhand sword, which does decent condition damage strictly because of sword 2. I feel like Abyssal Chill was their answer to lack of an alternative condition weapon.

    In regards to Mallyx, I'd say a big reason there's such a big difference with it between say Jalis and Shiro is that it is an upkeep skill. It can't necessarily have as much of an impact as Jade Winds or RotGD. It could maybe use something additional, but I don't really know what. I still kept the torment application but perhaps removing the stats would upset too many people? I was just afraid of making it too strong because this whole post is buff-city as is. The nice thing about it being instant is that you could activate it right before your skill finishes and then immediately deactivate it. Admittedly though it would still be expensive to do. I'm not really sure lol, I just think the current skill is so boring.

    Thank you for your response! The discussion is very much appreciated.

    Heck, imo even the elite specs have weapon option issues. Seriously, I've cannot overstate how much I'm disgusted by shortbow at the moment. I was gleefully mashing all the skills in spvp matches and then I realized that it wasn't really doing anything. SB#2 and 3 are just so, so weak - even if you do manage to hit your opponent properly w/#3.

    If Abyssal chill's ICD was cut significantly (IIRC it's 10 sec or so, making it a garbage trait) then maybe it might see some use? However, it competes with Demonic Resistance, which considering condi rev's 1) lack of weapons and 2) Their lack of evades/power damage defenses on those weapons, is extremely important fur surviving power burst (I stack that trait with the on-summon prot from Renegade). I also find it absolutely ridiculous that Rev has to sacrifice a middle tier trait to get a much weaker version of something they should have by default. /salt

    As for the stats, I don't think it needs to be removed. You could probably just leave the stats as-is and things would be fine. It looks good on paper - 10-15% more of everything, and in pve it's probably a pretty sweet deal, but in pvp the extra power-based damage doesn't really do much since mace's power damage is already bad. The extra vitality and toughness is nice, but I don't think any builds run enough of either of those for the boost to be all that strong, and the vit disappears afterward so you could...probably accidentally kill yourself with it if you got too low?

    Tbh I never really had a "Oh gosh, I'm really thankful for those extra stats right now!" . The torment application is nice, but I've never really felt like my condi rev has the staying power in melee fights to really benefit from it - it's aoe, but I have...two dodges and pretty much zilch other stuff to help me stay alive in a teamfight (this is why I am extremely pleased you suggested adding an evade to mace #3).

    We can add a ton of nice stuff to the elite, but if it's in melee range and condi rev continues to go splat rather easily - compared to power rev that can run sword and staff, getting extra evades, blinds and projectile blocks while still being able to use the weapons to deal not-insignificant damage - then it won't really change much, I think.

  • Turkeyspit.3965Turkeyspit.3965 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I only play my Rev casually in PvE and I run Hammer Herald in WvW, with no experience in sPvP, but from your list one thing jumped out at me:

    @Pterikdactyl.7630 said:
    JALIS

    • Vengeful Hammers: Now grants barrier instead of healing.

    Barrier is arguably superior to healing as it works even when you're at max health. Considering that VH is unblockable, can hit multiple targets and gives 20% DR for both physical and condition, I'd suggest your changes would make VH a little too tanky.

  • Charrderye.2947Charrderye.2947 Member
    edited December 4, 2018

    If I could use racials as Revenant I'd be happy,

  • Ertrak.9506Ertrak.9506 Member ✭✭✭

    1 suggestion: The old herald trait you reimplemented. I'd rather see this break stuns for allies then you use a stunbreak, rather than when you break a stun. This gets rid of the requirement of having be stunned yourself. I absolutely hated that the old Herald trait worked this way.

  • You make some good points. As I play herald here's some feedback on the traits that would impact us:

    Spirit Boon should be merged with Song of the Mists in the Major Master spot. Put a new, well-thought-out trait as a GM.

    Swift Gale should come back for sure. Unsure if the Devastation line is the correct place to put it. I'd just put in... well, herald, lol.

    Big fan of the corruption changes, wtb condi rev back.

    That said you are clearly Ventari rev oriented and I have absolutely no right to argue anything there- just that it looks like with the buffs to ventari and staff you might be making it just a bit strong. Ventari rev is already good in PvE and these changes improve everything in the kit. That said, your changes would go a long way toward improving it in the competitive game modes- targeting the tablet when you don't know what your allies are going to do is not easy.

    good lord i am absolute trash at this video game

  • Pterikdactyl.7630Pterikdactyl.7630 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 5, 2018

    @Curennos.9307 said:
    If Abyssal chill's ICD was cut significantly (IIRC it's 10 sec or so, making it a garbage trait) then maybe it might see some use? However, it competes with Demonic Resistance, which considering condi rev's 1) lack of weapons and 2) Their lack of evades/power damage defenses on those weapons, is extremely important fur surviving power burst (I stack that trait with the on-summon prot from Renegade). I also find it absolutely ridiculous that Rev has to sacrifice a middle tier trait to get a much weaker version of something they should have by default. /salt

    As far as I am aware and have tested, Abyssal Chill has no ICD. So with Sword 2 if you can get all 3 projectiles to land, it's 3 stacks of torment. It's not terrible as far as hybridization goes, but it helps bridge the gap. But yes, it competing with Demonic Resistance does make it a more difficult choice, so I definitely see your point.

    As for the stats, I don't think it needs to be removed. You could probably just leave the stats as-is and things would be fine. It looks good on paper - 10-15% more of everything, and in pve it's probably a pretty sweet deal, but in pvp the extra power-based damage doesn't really do much since mace's power damage is already bad. The extra vitality and toughness is nice, but I don't think any builds run enough of either of those for the boost to be all that strong, and the vit disappears afterward so you could...probably accidentally kill yourself with it if you got too low?

    Tbh I never really had a "Oh gosh, I'm really thankful for those extra stats right now!" . The torment application is nice, but I've never really felt like my condi rev has the staying power in melee fights to really benefit from it - it's aoe, but I have...two dodges and pretty much zilch other stuff to help me stay alive in a teamfight (this is why I am extremely pleased you suggested adding an evade to mace #3).

    Selfishly I would love to have the torment be completely removed from the elite so something even better (beyond my own suggestion) could be introduced, but I'm sure there are those out there that like it. To me it always felt like overlap from Unyielding Anguish, and as you said you can't exactly facetank much with it, so it can easily go to waste. As much as I like EtD's animation, it's such a dud skill aside from triggering Diabolic Inferno, for example. And at that point it's not even about the skill itself.

    @Ertrak.9506 said:
    1 suggestion: The old herald trait you reimplemented. I'd rather see this break stuns for allies then you use a stunbreak, rather than when you break a stun. This gets rid of the requirement of having be stunned yourself. I absolutely hated that the old Herald trait worked this way.

    Yeah, at that point I'd just worry that it'd be too strong. Part of what makes Firebrand's Mantra elite so powerful is not just the stab application, but also the group stunbreak, which can be extremely helpful in clutch moments in, say, WvW. Harmonize Continuity has a 600 radius with no CD, so I think it is fair enough. Do you not think the trait is strong enough? Of course it is not nearly as good, but it would be a nice alternative trait to run that could still be quite helpful. I could, however, see a group stunbreak be added to a skill like RotGD, for example, since it costs 40 energy and has a long wind-up.

    Thanks for your reply!

    @ventusthunder.5067 said:
    You make some good points. As I play herald here's some feedback on the traits that would impact us:

    Spirit Boon should be merged with Song of the Mists in the Major Master spot. Put a new, well-thought-out trait as a GM.

    Swift Gale should come back for sure. Unsure if the Devastation line is the correct place to put it. I'd just put in... well, herald, lol.

    Big fan of the corruption changes, wtb condi rev back.

    That said you are clearly Ventari rev oriented and I have absolutely no right to argue anything there- just that it looks like with the buffs to ventari and staff you might be making it just a bit strong. Ventari rev is already good in PvE and these changes improve everything in the kit. That said, your changes would go a long way toward improving it in the competitive game modes- targeting the tablet when you don't know what your allies are going to do is not easy.

    What sort of trait do you think would be a good replacement for SotM? I think it is a fitting trait for a GM, but very underperforming. The radius is atrocious and I especially find Shiro's and Jalis' to be the most disappointing due to the target requirement to make it noticeable. If it was buffed (let's say to what I suggested), it'd provide good competition to both Rolling and Charged Mists depending on the build. Do you feel like the major master spot would be appropriate because that's where Equilibrium was?

    Yeah, I could see why Swift Gale could go well in Herald. I loved that trait to death. I didn't place it in Herald because of Rising Momentum, and sadly I don't see it coming back because ANet seems deadset on their new vision of strict (aka unnecessarily restrictive) themes for each line in traitlines (Herald bottom line being upkeeps). My suggestion for RM would be to have the speed buff last a non-stackable 3 seconds so you can profit from the speed boost for a few seconds after the upkeep expires, which would make it a bit more competitive in my eyes. I suggested Devastation for SG because of the superspeed access via Impossible Odds and the fact that Shiro is the most mobile legend, but more than anything I'd like to see the trait be reintroduced in some fashion.

    Glad you like the condi rev changes :). It's probably my favorite PvE spec to play, I'd love to see it become more viable.

    You have a very fair point about my Ventari suggestions. There are a ton of buffs in the line, without a doubt. As far as it being potentially too strong in PvE, in what ways would you say? I don't play a ton of PvE so I don't have the best insight on that. While I do agree that my ideas would make it better in PvE, I tried to avoid any things like additional boons it could provide, which seems to be a huge determining factor for PvE meta-tier support. It would certainly be more energy efficient and more forgiving to use and we'd see more Ventari Revs around, but since the skills' functionalities wouldn't be changing, I don't think it would really shift the meta, That sort of balance is just not my forte since I'm not familiar enough with it. I was hoping to avoid any meta changes with my ideas because my goal is not to make anything god-tier, I just want it to operate more smoothly and be more viable in competitive modes. I doubt that my changes would ever usurp Firebrand's support throne, but I'd like to at least like to go into conquest without being a meme. Who knows what sort of builds could pop up...even something like a bunker Retri/Invo/Salvo Jalis/Ventari core build or a boonbusting Sage's Mallyx/Ventari hybrid support build (realistically never would happen, but one can dream).

    I appreciate your response! Hearing other opinions is always helpful when I'm mostly bouncing these ideas off myself before posting them.

    Comprehensive Core Revenant Suggestions
    Made in the Mists [REV] - Currently on Devona's Rest

  • Curennos.9307Curennos.9307 Member ✭✭✭

    My bad there - I went off of http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/ , where it lists a 10 sec ICD. I'll definitely be giving sword a go now to see how sword 2 works out, and maybe the multi hit -> crits from sword 3 + rampant vax can get me somewhere. Demonoic resistance is more of an uptime thing anyway, and there are gaps, so it might be worth giving up if I get the evade in exchange, too. Hell, maybe I'll run double sword as a condi rev.

    I do with Demonic resistance was more consistant though, as opposed to a 'it has x% uptime if I'm in Mallyx, relatively useless otherwise'.

    As for Embrace the Dorkness, I have never taken Diabolic Inferno - I always use Pulsating Pestilence. Guess it says something about the state of the traitline/Mallyx that I have a heckton of inconsistent/scattered Resistance and still need to take that trait. I tried DF, but I find the condi transfer helps far too much against pretty much every spec - immobs, chills, cripples, etc against power specs, and just killing other condi specs (scourges, condi mirage) with their own stuff.

    I'd love it if the torment was removed from EtD and replaced with something more versatile - such as having every condi application while active apply +1 stacks. However, if we want to make EtD more worth using, there's the risk of.well..how to say, making it into an either/or scenario. We either buff it to the point where the skill is always worth using in Mallyx, or it's still never used at all. On the other hand, having someone flip it on/off just for the burn + (as you suggested) blast every 8 sec isn't really that much of an elite, either.

    Maybe have the elite flip the utility skills? Currently, they're more offensive oriented. Activating the elite could change their base function (for example, turn the heal into a condi application + power damage, additional damage + condi application per condi on the target etc. Unfortunately, I think that's more work than anet is willing to put into the legend or a GM trait xD Still, despite (imo) having that condi-support feel for allies, it doesn't actually do that job very well beyond occasionally pulsing out res.

  • I don't agree with shortening the burn duration and increasing the amount of stacks. The idea behind conditions is to ramp up over time (I know that it's badly executed but it's a concept).
    Make other classes' conditions less spammy so the 'ramp up' thing actually exists. There is no sense inne bombing someone with condis and killing the immediately. The jest example of condition build that actually kills over time is D/D-SB Thief.

    The problem I have with Invocation is that it provides a stunbreak. Make it a built-in mechanic.

    I love your ideas behind maintaining that feel of empowering yourself when using Banish Enchantment Passive.
    Our legends need more of this kind of personality.
    We need less dependance on other players - so updating the heal-on getting condition to the way the Rune of Tormenting works is great.

    Overall great ideas. I wouldn:'t want some od them being applied (condis) but I like most of them.

    Check out my post about Jalis, Retribution and Hammer if you are interested :)

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/60081/jalis-retribution-and-hammer#latest

  • Pterikdactyl.7630Pterikdactyl.7630 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 6, 2018

    @DonArkanio.6419 said:
    I don't agree with shortening the burn duration and increasing the amount of stacks. The idea behind conditions is to ramp up over time (I know that it's badly executed but it's a concept).
    Make other classes' conditions less spammy so the 'ramp up' thing actually exists. There is no sense inne bombing someone with condis and killing the immediately. The jest example of condition build that actually kills over time is D/D-SB Thief.

    Not sure if you meant torment or not, but I did not touch the burn duration/stacks for anything. Both of my suggestions were for torment (Abyssal Chill and Maniacal Persistence). I did add one stack of burn to my idea of enhanced UA, but that has a big requirement behind it so I find it fair. Although I agree that conditions should be more geared towards ramping up over time, I don't think revs can really output enough condition "burst" like a condi mes can, so applying the same general rule to all classes isn't really the best balance method IMO. Regarding Maniacal Persistence specifically, I find the change particularly bad because the self-torment lasts so much longer than the resistance does unless specced for high concentration and no expertise. Also, I can't see condi rev ever keeping up with changes like Rune of Antitoxin and Sigil of Cleansing (WvW). 3 cleanses on weapon swap? That's a triple increase from what it was before. And not that Antitoxin Runes are necessarily the best stat spread for most meta specs, but just for an example Hard Light Arena can remove 24 conditions per target (meaning up to 120) if above 50% heat with Antitoxin Runes and with Anticorrosion Plating traited. That's doubled from what it'd be without runes. I know condi classes can be annoying to fight and are "noob magnets" but not all condi specs are created equally amongst classes. They did a blanket change with the condi pass they did a while back, and while I appreciate it on some level because I agree with its intention, it also did further harm to certain specs that were already out of the meta, which I find unfortunate. Not that I particularly like fighting condi specs myself, but it sucks for those that play them. I hope that makes sense.

    The problem I have with Invocation is that it provides a stunbreak. Make it a built-in mechanic.

    Yeah, I think about this very often and have wondered the same. That trait alone makes the whole line feel so essential to a whole variety of builds. Like if I take Salvation/Retribution/Herald, I literally only have one stunbreak that costs 40 energy, and I've gotta be in the right legend to have access to it. Stab can only make up for that so much.

    I love your ideas behind maintaining that feel of empowering yourself when using Banish Enchantment Passive.
    Our legends need more of this kind of personality.
    We need less dependance on other players - so updating the heal-on getting condition to the way the Rune of Tormenting works is great.

    Overall great ideas. I wouldn:'t want some od them being applied (condis) but I like most of them.

    I appreciate your feedback regardless of whether you like it, but am glad to hear that you like most of it :).

    Check out my post about Jalis, Retribution and Hammer if you are interested :)

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/60081/jalis-retribution-and-hammer#latest

    Sure thing!

    Comprehensive Core Revenant Suggestions
    Made in the Mists [REV] - Currently on Devona's Rest

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