A fundamental problem with weaver. — Guild Wars 2 Forums

A fundamental problem with weaver.

Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭
edited December 19, 2018 in Elementalist

Its the dual skills. They replace your 3rd weapon skill, and since no one ever double attunes (or if you do need to you gotta wait 4 whole seconds) that 3rd skill is essentially gone. Its a huge clunky detriment. When I'm playing staff weaver in pvp (I don't anymore for this reason) when I switch to earth I need magnetic aura immediately, or if water then I need geyser immediately. Its bad enough not having the 4th and 5th skills.

Edit
Removed idea, want to create discussion about solutions rather then argue over mine.

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Comments

  • lLobo.7960lLobo.7960 Member ✭✭✭

    Staff weaver is only good in PvP if you team is good enough to keep people out of you, or if the other team is bad enough that they don't bother chasing you.
    Meanwhile the dual skills are what makes staff weaver great in PvE and WvW as you have extra long lasting fields in your hands to compound even more damage and effects into your rotation.

  • @MyPuppy.8970 said:
    Anet: we gave you unravel for this kind of situation.
    Eles: seriously

    Didn’t you once suggest unravel to be an F5 skill to help us in such situations?

  • steki.1478steki.1478 Member ✭✭✭✭

    To be honest, needing skill 3 immediately would be the first reason why you shouldn't play weaver on staff. It's more of a damage and control build. If you need sustain just play core ele.

    Deso's favorite FROG
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  • Dace.8173Dace.8173 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Most Weavers I see in PvP or WvW make use of the dual skill. Granted, I rarely, almost never, see staff Weaver in PvP.

  • idolin.2831idolin.2831 Member ✭✭✭

    I mean you stayed away from Staff Weaver in PvP for a good reason then - Staff Weaver is about maximizing control and damage and almost never about support or self sustain. What makes you still want to take Weaver in PvP?

  • Stallic.2397Stallic.2397 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 4, 2018

    @Phoenix the One.4071 said:

    @MyPuppy.8970 said:
    Anet: we gave you unravel for this kind of situation.
    Eles: seriously

    Didn’t you once suggest unravel to be an F5 skill to help us in such situations?

    Lol, he said he didn't like unravel. But I did suggest that...
    Unravel works for every ele weapon except sword, because sword was built with weaver in mind. Since most sPvp Ele's play with sword, it was initially turned down. Seeing these threads pop up now is just hilarious.

    Honestly, unravel should have always been an F5 and the mechanic of weaver should have been a continued bonus as you keep weaving. Something like kalla's fervor with Renegade's. The more you weave between elements, without using unravel, the higher percentage your damage goes up. Max 7% just for example. When you use unravel, you lose the bonus and have to start over again.

  • @Stallic.2397 said:

    @Phoenix the One.4071 said:

    @MyPuppy.8970 said:
    Anet: we gave you unravel for this kind of situation.
    Eles: seriously

    Didn’t you once suggest unravel to be an F5 skill to help us in such situations?

    Lol, he said he didn't like unravel. But I did suggest that...
    Unravel works for every ele weapon except sword, because sword was built with weaver in mind. Since most sPvp Ele's play with sword, that's why it was initially turned down. Seeing these threads pop up now is just hilarious.

    Honestly, unravel should have always been an F5 and the mechanic of weaver should have been a continued bonus as you keep weaving. Something like kalla's fervor with Renegade's. The more you weave between elements, without using unravel, the higher percentage your damage goes up. Max 7% just for example. When you use unravel, you lose the bonus and have to start over again.

    Ohh sorry xD didn’t mean to give credit to another person :)

  • I think most of you are missing the point. The point is to make skill 3 available to all weapons, or even 4 and 5 as well like I mentioned in the 2nd paragraph. Staff was just an example. Weaver, with whatever weapon, will always be held back by this fundamental detriment.

  • lLobo.7960lLobo.7960 Member ✭✭✭

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    I think most of you are missing the point. The point is to make skill 3 available to all weapons, or even 4 and 5 as well like I mentioned in the 2nd paragraph. Staff was just an example. Weaver, with whatever weapon, will always be held back by this fundamental detriment.

    No, you are missing the point.
    Weaver is only held back by its inability to predict the flow of battle and prepare accordingly.
    If you need magnetic aura and you are in fire attunement, you reacted to slow. Should be already in earth attunement before you need the aura. If you cant react fast enough with staff, use a weapon that gives you defensive skills in the slots 2, 4, 5, and then improve your skills.
    Staff weaver is only good in spvp if your team is great or your opponents oblivious.

  • MyPuppy.8970MyPuppy.8970 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Phoenix the One.4071 said:

    @MyPuppy.8970 said:
    Anet: we gave you unravel for this kind of situation.
    Eles: seriously

    Didn’t you once suggest unravel to be an F5 skill to help us in such situations?

    Nah never in my whole life. But I did suggest to remove it and replace it with something worth slotting.

  • Stallic.2397Stallic.2397 Member ✭✭✭

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @lLobo.7960 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    I think most of you are missing the point. The point is to make skill 3 available to all weapons, or even 4 and 5 as well like I mentioned in the 2nd paragraph. Staff was just an example. Weaver, with whatever weapon, will always be held back by this fundamental detriment.

    No, you are missing the point.
    Weaver is only held back by its inability to predict the flow of battle and prepare accordingly.
    If you need magnetic aura and you are in fire attunement, you reacted to slow. Should be already in earth attunement before you need the aura. If you cant react fast enough with staff, use a weapon that gives you defensive skills in the slots 2, 4, 5, and then improve your skills.
    Staff weaver is only good in spvp if your team is great or your opponents oblivious.

    That's ridiculous. Might as well say someone should dodge 4 seconds in advance. No other class has to do this and for good reason, because it sets an impossible standard. You can predict the flow of battle to a degree, but even if a person was a master at it this game is about active defense and whats needed changes every moment. That still doesn't change the fact that the 3rd weapon skill is mostly unused because of clunky-ness. Again staff was used for an example so please don't try to use it to disprove my argument because it wont work.

    I honestly thought he was being sarcastic, lol. Dagger has an aura on air 3, so what does that mean? Anticipate 8 seconds earlier and double attune to get it? Pretty ridiculous. That applies to any third skill worth having.

    Using your duel skill, then gaining access to your third skill isn't a bad idea. As long as duel skills always gain access priority. If weaver's don't like it, they're not obliged to use their third skill.

  • Zhaid Zhem.6508Zhaid Zhem.6508 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 5, 2018

    I love the gameplay of Weaver, it helps to swap every 4sec and chain skills; and it needs too because of long CD and poor dmg skills; byt I don't want they change that.
    I don't care about unravel or #3 #4 #5, yes it needs healing power and arcane to sustain until these skills (Schoking aura, water skills #4 #5 to heal and cleanse etc) but it's not the fault of the gameplay, attunements or weapons skills; the issue here is the e-spec which doesn't give proper traits or utility skills to sustain a MELEE spec and weapon, and core elem in general.

    Yes it could be interesting if you hit with your dual attack you earn the "core" #3 skill. But already they need to fix sword's dual attacks : poor range and radius or too long cast, poor target tracking.

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 5, 2018

    Even if someone were determined enough to get at the 3rd skill, it is practically impossible to do in any pvp setting. First you attune to the element in question, wait 4 seconds, and then you can use it. Then you gotta wait 4 more seconds to get out of the attunement. That is 8 whole freaking seconds! How on earth can anyone be ok with this?! You will get auto attacked to death before you can get out of said attunement. Its madness. Madness I say!

  • Ganathar.4956Ganathar.4956 Member ✭✭✭

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    Even if someone were determined enough to get at the 3rd skill, it is practically impossible to do in any pvp setting. First you attune to the element in question, wait 4 seconds, and then you can use it. Then you gotta wait 4 more seconds to get out of the attunement. That is 8 whole freaking seconds! How on earth can anyone be ok with this?! You will get auto attacked to death before you can get out of said attunement. Its madness. Madness I say!

    And you lose 3 skills when single attuning too. As soon as you single attune, your #2 skill stays the same. When you get out of it, your #4 and #5 stay the same. There is no reason to do it. It's a trap.

  • idolin.2831idolin.2831 Member ✭✭✭

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    Even if someone were determined enough to get at the 3rd skill, it is practically impossible to do in any pvp setting. First you attune to the element in question, wait 4 seconds, and then you can use it. Then you gotta wait 4 more seconds to get out of the attunement. That is 8 whole freaking seconds! How on earth can anyone be ok with this?! You will get auto attacked to death before you can get out of said attunement. Its madness. Madness I say!

    Well that's partly bc Weaver's design unfortunately doesn't work well with Staff and Dagger - probably an oversight from the developers, but also a reason why you should probably stay away from Staff Weaver in PvP. I've seen many core/tempest staff Ele in PvP but never Staff Weaver.

    I'd welcome a buff to Unravel with more interesting boons or bonuses, or a change to make Unravel an F5 - meaning making it an option that the Ele can use, instead of forcing the order of the 3rd skill and the dual skill, since there can be situations when I need the 3rd skill more while there can be times I need the dual skill more.

    Also I believe you're just arguing the disadvantages of Staff Weaver in PvP right? Otherwise you can pick Core Ele or Tempest, both work much better with Staff and I've seen quite a few of them in PvP.

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 5, 2018

    @idolin.2831 said:
    Also I believe you're just arguing the disadvantages of Staff Weaver in PvP right? Otherwise you can pick Core Ele or Tempest, both work much better with Staff and I've seen quite a few of them in PvP.

    Are you messin with me? I said twice that I'm referring to weaver in general and not staff. It doesn't matter which weapon it is, the 3rd skill on all attunements is essentially gone and this is not ok, at least not with me cant speak for alla yall. Having to choose a different spec cuz something is broken or not working right is a sign that something is wrong and needs to be fixed. I think unravel is trying to address this issue but falls short.

  • SoulSlavocracy.4902SoulSlavocracy.4902 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 5, 2018

    When I roam on sword/dagger weaver, most of the time I don't require those skills because I need to stay alive/sustain/evade but occasionally when I'm acting more offensively I'll fully attune fire or air as both attunements have an awesome high damage skill #3 that rewards the weaver (it is a sword skill) for fully attuning. It's usage is niche, and it fits elementalist perfectly, since elementalist is and has always been punishing/rewarding to the in/competent. There are extra skills available for those who opportunities to use them, and it's really cool that anet gave us SO many skills with this specialization to use at different times.

    So .... look, I hear your complaint and it's understandable, but dual skills are often a lot more useful and fill in a lot of DPS gaps that previous ele builds had, and magnetic aura --- It's a useful skill but it's gone in half a second and you could've just used another skill to put pressure on the enemy, or use a mobility skill to get away, position yourself behind something in the environment etc .... ele is about being clever and managing your cooldowns.

    All due respect, I don't think you've really taken the time to experience weaver. It sounds like you tried to play a sub-optimal build in pvp and then came here to denounce the entire specialization. I don't know if you play WvW at all, and not everyone would agree with me on this, but that's ok -- they're probably rev mains ;) weaver is top dog for DPS in WvW if you know how to play it right. You can literally win fights for small groups of 20 people just by managing your bombs/cooldowns and placing them effectively/quickly, with a little bit of luck perhaps, but it happens a lot. I've seen it from the other side as well - seen a quarter of our squad go down to a meteor/lava font/pyroclastic blast/arcane wave bomb all timed extremely well, and then watched the rest of squad break immediately after to the rest of their zerg.

    Weaver is a zerg breaker, if you have the aptitude for it. If you want a pvp weaver, play marshals fire322/water131/weaver322 sword/dagger with durability runes and sigil of strength on one weapon, just be aware that for most, the learning curve is as steep as it is rewarding.

    | Solemn [PAL][shrd][wHo][DoM][BOZ] |
    | YouTube Wrath of God Staff Weaver |
    | Anvil Rock (main) | Crystal Desert (alt)

  • idolin.2831idolin.2831 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 5, 2018

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @idolin.2831 said:
    Also I believe you're just arguing the disadvantages of Staff Weaver in PvP right? Otherwise you can pick Core Ele or Tempest, both work much better with Staff and I've seen quite a few of them in PvP.

    Are you messin with me? I said twice that I'm referring to weaver in general and not staff. It doesn't matter which weapon it is, the 3rd skill on all attunements is essentially gone and this is not ok, at least not with me cant speak for alla yall. Having to choose a different spec cuz something is broken or not working right is a sign that something is wrong and needs to be fixed. I think unravel is trying to address this issue but falls short.

    Ah I got it - my apologies. I agree that the problem exists on all MH weapons except for Sword since it's designed to work with Weaver, the 3rd skills on Sword except for the Air one are pretty much useless anyway. What about a version of Unravel that has slightly shorter CD, and provide more useful boons (like stability, resistance, quickness)? Although then I'd waste a utility slot - I'd much prefer Unravel be made a F5.

  • Dace.8173Dace.8173 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stallic.2397 said:

    @Phoenix the One.4071 said:

    @MyPuppy.8970 said:
    Anet: we gave you unravel for this kind of situation.
    Eles: seriously

    Didn’t you once suggest unravel to be an F5 skill to help us in such situations?

    Lol, he said he didn't like unravel. But I did suggest that...
    Unravel works for every ele weapon except sword, because sword was built with weaver in mind. Since most sPvp Ele's play with sword, it was initially turned down. Seeing these threads pop up now is just hilarious.

    Honestly, unravel should have always been an F5 and the mechanic of weaver should have been a continued bonus as you keep weaving. Something like kalla's fervor with Renegade's. The more you weave between elements, without using unravel, the higher percentage your damage goes up. Max 7% just for example. When you use unravel, you lose the bonus and have to start over again.

    mmmmm, no. That would amplify Elementalist (and by extension Weaver) issues. Your suggestion increases risk, which in turn increases difficulty, which in turns demands a bigger payoff for the player. The moment even a slight nerf is needed you've lowered the reward without reducing the risk or skill level requirment. That's one of the issues Elementalist faces right now, high skill level but low reward (for many). There are some people who might enjoy that extra level of difficulty in play but not enough to justify an Elite.

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @lLobo.7960 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    I think most of you are missing the point. The point is to make skill 3 available to all weapons, or even 4 and 5 as well like I mentioned in the 2nd paragraph. Staff was just an example. Weaver, with whatever weapon, will always be held back by this fundamental detriment.

    No, you are missing the point.
    Weaver is only held back by its inability to predict the flow of battle and prepare accordingly.
    If you need magnetic aura and you are in fire attunement, you reacted to slow. Should be already in earth attunement before you need the aura. If you cant react fast enough with staff, use a weapon that gives you defensive skills in the slots 2, 4, 5, and then improve your skills.
    Staff weaver is only good in spvp if your team is great or your opponents oblivious.

    That's ridiculous. Might as well say someone should dodge 4 seconds in advance. No other class has to do this and for good reason, because it sets an impossible standard. You can predict the flow of battle to a degree, but even if a person was a master at it this game is about active defense and whats needed changes every moment. That still doesn't change the fact that the 3rd weapon skill is mostly unused because of clunky-ness. Again staff was used for an example so please don't try to use it to disprove my argument because it wont work.

    Revenant. That is the entire playstyle of Revenant. If you aren't 3 to 4 steps ahead of everyone else in the match you're not going to have the Energy you need to pull off your moves. Or you won't be in the correct Legend in order to respond to the current needs. You basically have to know you're going to need that dodge well before the actual need arises or you find yourself with not enough Energy for a dodge or not enough Energy for that burst when the window opens. If you don't read the match well and you go all in on an attack you may find yourself with no defenses. If you go all in on defense and you're not reading the match well then you may lose a window of opportunity against the other team. Regardless, Revenant requires you to know what you will need well before you need it.

    For example, if I'm playing Power Herald and I need Glints massive heal then I need to be in Glint well before that need arises because it takes far too long to switch Legends, activate Facet of Light and then consume Infuse Light. By the time I've done all of that, I'm dead. So I have to know in advance that I need to be in Glint and that I need to be using Facet of Light so that I can consume Infuse Light. However, if I'm in Glint then I'm also forgoing the offensive strength that Shiro provides. At any point in the process of playing Revenant if I'm not thinking I need something before I need it then typically I missed my small window to use an ability.

    Also, what's this business about no one using the dual skill? I see it all the time.

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    Even if someone were determined enough to get at the 3rd skill, it is practically impossible to do in any pvp setting. First you attune to the element in question, wait 4 seconds, and then you can use it. Then you gotta wait 4 more seconds to get out of the attunement. That is 8 whole freaking seconds! How on earth can anyone be ok with this?! You will get auto attacked to death before you can get out of said attunement. Its madness. Madness I say!

    Because that's the playstyle of Weaver and when you play one you sign up for that. If you want that #3 skill you have Core and Tempest to play. Weaver is meant for other people who want that extra challenge. When you play Weaver you are pretty much forgoing your standard #3 skill. Just like when you play Dragonhunter and Firebrand you forgo the standard Virtues and when you play Scourge you forgo the standard Shroud. These are all things that a player knows up front and is agreeing to when they opt to play that Elite.

    If it's not for you that's cool but just because it's not for you doesn't mean it isn't for other people or that Weaver is flawed. It's not. At least not in the fashion you are indicating.

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @idolin.2831 said:
    Also I believe you're just arguing the disadvantages of Staff Weaver in PvP right? Otherwise you can pick Core Ele or Tempest, both work much better with Staff and I've seen quite a few of them in PvP.

    Are you messin with me? I said twice that I'm referring to weaver in general and not staff. It doesn't matter which weapon it is, the 3rd skill on all attunements is essentially gone and this is not ok, at least not with me cant speak for alla yall. Having to choose a different spec cuz something is broken or not working right is a sign that something is wrong and needs to be fixed. I think unravel is trying to address this issue but falls short.

    It actually is ok. That's the design. That's the appeal. You've yet to list a solid reason why it is important for Weaver to work like Core and Tempest instead of introducing a unique and different style of play. That's kinda the point of Elites, to experiment with professions and alter the way they are played. You haven't established that it is broken or needs to be fixed. Just that you don't like it.

    There is a world of difference between broken and something you don't particularly like. So far all I see is something you don't like. Tempest and Core seem to be more in line with what you want. But Weaver's dual skill is actually fine. It faces a few problems, this isn't one of them.

  • Stallic.2397Stallic.2397 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dace.8173 said:
    mmmmm, no. That would amplify Elementalist (and by extension Weaver) issues. Your suggestion increases risk, which in turn increases difficulty, which in turns demands a bigger payoff for the player. The moment even a slight nerf is needed you've lowered the reward without reducing the risk or skill level requirment. That's one of the issues Elementalist faces right now, high skill level but low reward (for many). There are some people who might enjoy that extra level of difficulty in play but not enough to justify an Elite.

    Revenant. That is the entire playstyle of Revenant. If you aren't 3 to 4 steps ahead of everyone else in the match you're not going to have the Energy you need to pull off your moves. Or you won't be in the correct Legend in order to respond to the current needs. You basically have to know you're going to need that dodge well before the actual need arises or you find yourself with not enough Energy for a dodge or not enough Energy for that burst when the window opens. If you don't read the match well and you go all in on an attack you may find yourself with no defenses. If you go all in on defense and you're not reading the match well then you may lose a window of opportunity against the other team. Regardless, Revenant requires you to know what you will need well before you need it.

    For example, if I'm playing Power Herald and I need Glints massive heal then I need to be in Glint well before that need arises because it takes far too long to switch Legends, activate Facet of Light and then consume Infuse Light. By the time I've done all of that, I'm dead. So I have to know in advance that I need to be in Glint and that I need to be using Facet of Light so that I can consume Infuse Light. However, if I'm in Glint then I'm also forgoing the offensive strength that Shiro provides. At any point in the process of playing Revenant if I'm not thinking I need something before I need it then typically I missed my small window to use an ability.

    Because that's the playstyle of Weaver and when you play one you sign up for that. If you want that #3 skill you have Core and Tempest to play. Weaver is meant for other people who want that extra challenge. When you play Weaver you are pretty much forgoing your standard #3 skill. Just like when you play Dragonhunter and Firebrand you forgo the standard Virtues and when you play Scourge you forgo the standard Shroud. These are all things that a player knows up front and is agreeing to when they opt to play that Elite.

    If it's not for you that's cool but just because it's not for you doesn't mean it isn't for other people or that Weaver is flawed. It's not. At least not in the fashion you are indicating.

    It actually is ok. That's the design. That's the appeal. You've yet to list a solid reason why it is important for Weaver to work like Core and Tempest instead of introducing a unique and different style of play. That's kinda the point of Elites, to experiment with professions and alter the way they are played. You haven't established that it is broken or needs to be fixed. Just that you don't like it.

    There is a world of difference between broken and something you don't particularly like. So far all I see is something you don't like. Tempest and Core seem to be more in line with what you want. But Weaver's dual skill is actually fine. It faces a few problems, this isn't one of them.

    You dismiss my idea because it'll make elementalist too complicated, but then you immediately go into a rant of why 3rd skills aren't needed for weaver because it's a complicated elite profession.

    Then you compare eles to Revanants, even though the two are completely different. Switching legends and weapons is part of their rotation. Double attuning is not the same, in fact it messes up the rotation of weaver just for one skill.

    I honestly don't know if this is trolling, or that you forgot the number of points you were trying say, which go against each other and make no sense.

    The whole point is that 3rd skills are needed for the weapon being used. For example, the magnetic aura on staff or air aura on dagger. There isn't a duel skill that replaces them. Yet, the weapons haven't changed and those 3rd skills are still needed!

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 5, 2018

    @SoulSlavocracy.4902 said:
    occasionally when I'm acting more offensively I'll fully attune fire or air as both attunements have an awesome high damage skill #3 that rewards the weaver (it is a sword skill) for fully attuning. It's usage is niche

    could've just used another skill to put pressure on the enemy, or use a mobility skill to get away, position yourself behind something in the environment etc .... ele is about being clever and managing your cooldowns.

    All due respect, I don't think you've really taken the time to experience weaver. It sounds like you tried to play a sub-optimal build in pvp and then came here to denounce the entire specialization. I don't know if you play WvW at all

    If you could use these high damage skills more often then wouldn't that be better? Would it still be niche?

    Dual skills are great but that's no reason to not have access to a bunch of often times necessary skills. For example air 3 on scepter, that blind is awesome in shutting big skills down; or fire 3 on dagger, that skill is a big part of damage and the evade is very useful. There are plenty of times mobility, positioning, and cd management is not an option or the other player is just as clever.

    I've played mostly staff, some sword, didn't bother with scepter or dagger for weaver. It doesn't matter though, that's not going to prove that I'm somehow wrong when the fact is that the 3rd weapon skill is gone. Most of them have a use and that use can often times save the ele. I've played plenty of staff weaver in wvw. I don't see what that has to do with this, unless youre saying that because the best weapon for weaver is sword in pvp then play staff/scepter/dagger elsewhere which is ridiculous.

    @idolin.2831 said:
    Ah I got it - my apologies. I agree that the problem exists on all MH weapons except for Sword since it's designed to work with Weaver, the 3rd skills on Sword except for the Air one are pretty much useless anyway. What about a version of Unravel that has slightly shorter CD, and provide more useful boons (like stability, resistance, quickness)? Although then I'd waste a utility slot - I'd much prefer Unravel be made a F5.

    No problem man. I think that version of Unravel would be cool and better then what we have now, but if it were a utility slot or even an f5 its still a band aid solution. Its a mechanic on top of a mechanic which is unnecessary when the first mechanic could be reworked.

    @Dace.8173 said:
    Revenant. That is the entire playstyle of Revenant. If you aren't 3 to 4 steps ahead of everyone else in the match you're not going to have the Energy you need to pull off your moves. Or you won't be in the correct Legend in order to respond to the current needs.

    Also, what's this business about no one using the dual skill? I see it all the time.

    If you want that #3 skill you have Core and Tempest to play. Just like when you play Dragonhunter and Firebrand you forgo the standard Virtues and when you play Scourge you forgo the standard Shroud.

    You've yet to list a solid reason why it is important for Weaver to work like Core and Tempest instead of introducing a unique and different style of play.

    I can sort of agree with the rev comparison, I haven't played a ton of rev but enough to get what you're describing. Energy and legend management will certainly make the player play a bit smarter and not spam stuff, sure. It comes down to rev having the tools to deal with most situations and ele not. There is a reason why the best weapon for weaver is sword. While good players can certainly pull off using the other weapons, that doesn't mean that somehow because this player can pull it off that its ok to be denied crucial skills.

    I meant the 3rd base skill not the dual skill.

    So what I'm hearing is that because 3 out of the 4 weapons aren't very good for weaver, play another spec. Sounds like something is wrong here. Except those other especs work for the other professions because they introduce new mechanics that work instead of replacing ones with something that doesn't.

    I have but you have either not read them or conveniently overlooked them. Please read above in this quote, or create some scenarios by yourself. Weaver can have all the uniqueness it wants. My proposed change will not affect this, at least the change only to how the dual and 3rd weapon skill interact. The other one about always fully attuning would and I agree that would probably be too far.

  • SoulSlavocracy.4902SoulSlavocracy.4902 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 5, 2018

    It's just never been a problem for me or any of my multiple ele main buddies who play both pvp and wvw. It's a valid complaint IN A SENSE but it feels like you're exaggerating because you didn't get what you wanted, where-as the rest of us are mostly pretty well satisfied with what weaver brought. I know someone else has already said this but ... just play tempest ... you can't expect every spec to do absolutely everything. And you can nitpick my arguments to death as much as you want, I could easily nitpick and refute my own arguments here, the point isn't that what I'm saying is infallible - the point is that what you're suggesting seems somewhat unreasonable. And I know you'll have something to say about that too - fine, I've spoken to plenty of people with disagreeable temperaments in my life. Maybe it will take time to convince you otherwise because words probably will not, again no disrespect intended, just being honest.

    | Solemn [PAL][shrd][wHo][DoM][BOZ] |
    | YouTube Wrath of God Staff Weaver |
    | Anvil Rock (main) | Crystal Desert (alt)

  • I kinda love the dual skills :)
    Could it be that the elite spec just isn’t matching your playstyle? But still give an alternative (maybe worse) to some one who would love to get this dual skill, and unravel to get the normal “3”?

    I still feel like tempest is a stronger elite spec, but I am okay with that.
    It is more the whole design around elementalist I am worried about :)

  • MyPuppy.8970MyPuppy.8970 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I Wonder why ele espec important skills that you need on the spot are always locked behind clunky mechanics.
    Like tempest camping a single attunement in the hope of being cced to have a reason to overload, or Weaver #3 skills.

  • The issue with weaver (or any spec before/after it) will be the foundation its based on, so long as ele continues to be the mess it is, or the beautiful benefactors that kindly grace it with its current state continue as they have, sprinkle as much fragrance as you want on radioactive matter, it will still be as hazardous as it was pre-fragrance.

  • Dace.8173Dace.8173 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 6, 2018

    @Stallic.2397 said:

    @Dace.8173 said:
    mmmmm, no. That would amplify Elementalist (and by extension Weaver) issues. Your suggestion increases risk, which in turn increases difficulty, which in turns demands a bigger payoff for the player. The moment even a slight nerf is needed you've lowered the reward without reducing the risk or skill level requirment. That's one of the issues Elementalist faces right now, high skill level but low reward (for many). There are some people who might enjoy that extra level of difficulty in play but not enough to justify an Elite.

    Revenant. That is the entire playstyle of Revenant. If you aren't 3 to 4 steps ahead of everyone else in the match you're not going to have the Energy you need to pull off your moves. Or you won't be in the correct Legend in order to respond to the current needs. You basically have to know you're going to need that dodge well before the actual need arises or you find yourself with not enough Energy for a dodge or not enough Energy for that burst when the window opens. If you don't read the match well and you go all in on an attack you may find yourself with no defenses. If you go all in on defense and you're not reading the match well then you may lose a window of opportunity against the other team. Regardless, Revenant requires you to know what you will need well before you need it.

    For example, if I'm playing Power Herald and I need Glints massive heal then I need to be in Glint well before that need arises because it takes far too long to switch Legends, activate Facet of Light and then consume Infuse Light. By the time I've done all of that, I'm dead. So I have to know in advance that I need to be in Glint and that I need to be using Facet of Light so that I can consume Infuse Light. However, if I'm in Glint then I'm also forgoing the offensive strength that Shiro provides. At any point in the process of playing Revenant if I'm not thinking I need something before I need it then typically I missed my small window to use an ability.

    Because that's the playstyle of Weaver and when you play one you sign up for that. If you want that #3 skill you have Core and Tempest to play. Weaver is meant for other people who want that extra challenge. When you play Weaver you are pretty much forgoing your standard #3 skill. Just like when you play Dragonhunter and Firebrand you forgo the standard Virtues and when you play Scourge you forgo the standard Shroud. These are all things that a player knows up front and is agreeing to when they opt to play that Elite.

    If it's not for you that's cool but just because it's not for you doesn't mean it isn't for other people or that Weaver is flawed. It's not. At least not in the fashion you are indicating.

    It actually is ok. That's the design. That's the appeal. You've yet to list a solid reason why it is important for Weaver to work like Core and Tempest instead of introducing a unique and different style of play. That's kinda the point of Elites, to experiment with professions and alter the way they are played. You haven't established that it is broken or needs to be fixed. Just that you don't like it.

    There is a world of difference between broken and something you don't particularly like. So far all I see is something you don't like. Tempest and Core seem to be more in line with what you want. But Weaver's dual skill is actually fine. It faces a few problems, this isn't one of them.

    You dismiss my idea because it'll make elementalist too complicated, but then you immediately go into a rant of why 3rd skills aren't needed for weaver because it's a complicated elite profession.

    Then you compare eles to Revanants, even though the two are completely different. Switching legends and weapons is part of their rotation. Double attuning is not the same, in fact it messes up the rotation of weaver just for one skill.

    I honestly don't know if this is trolling, or that you forgot the number of points you were trying say, which go against each other and make no sense.

    The whole point is that 3rd skills are needed for the weapon being used. For example, the magnetic aura on staff or air aura on dagger. There isn't a duel skill that replaces them. Yet, the weapons haven't changed and those 3rd skills are still needed!

    No, I dismissed your idea because it magnifies the current issues and complaints being lodged by Elementalist players in a lot of these threads. One of the more consistent complaints is that Elementalist is hard and requires a lot of skill but that it doesn't reward players for having that skill. What you suggest is that problem on crack. It being complicated is secondary to the fact that if the reward isn't high enough people will be angry and upset, as they currently are. All nerfs to Core Elementalist damage would be nerfs to Weavers damage which makes the reward part of the equation lower, and we get threads with 500 posts talking about how Weaver is not worth it.

    I honestly don't care about how complicated it is.

    My discussion on the third skill for Weaver isn't related to a higher skill level, more reward game play. The third skill for Weaver doesn't make it more complicated to play. The issue lodged by the OP isn't a complexity-based issue but a preference on playstyle based issue. The OP prefers it that the third skill was more accessible and that you didn't have to give it up to play Weaver. I disagree with it, but this isn't a complexity-based problem. Having access to the third skill is 100% a playstyle preference and they really aren't a need but a want. If you watch the play videos of top Weaver players you see that they don't really focus too much on the third skill in their play and rotation. However, if you need those third skills then Weaver is really not the profession you should be playing as Weaver upfront askes you to give those third skills up in favor of a new dual skill. That's the play requirement involved.

    Also, you seem to not understand what I was saying about Revenant. I didn't compare Elementalist to Revenant. The OP made a statement about the playstyle of Weaver and what it required of the player. He stated that no other profession in the game requires that playstyle. I pointed out that he wasn't correct in that statement and that Revenant did require what he claimed no other playstyle required. I then developed that point to highlight what I was talking about in regards to the playstyle being discussed.

    I initially had simply just written "Revenant." but figured leaving it at that was being too flippant and that developing my point further would be more conducive to a constructive discussion. However, nowhere did I state they were the same. My commentary on Revenant was a very specific answer to a question the OP asked not 100% in relation to Weaver but the rest of the game.

    However, I love it when people get a response they don't like and they act like someone is trolling. Not understanding the points I made is not trolling. That's more on you than anything I said. The OP actually understood the points I was making. So they made sense to the person I was in conversation with.

    It's also worth noting, dual skills do not mess up the rotation. Not in the slightest. It requires a new rotation to be generated, that is all.

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    If you could use these high damage skills more often then wouldn't that be better? Would it still be niche?

    Dual skills are great but that's no reason to not have access to a bunch of often times necessary skills. For example air 3 on scepter, that blind is awesome in shutting big skills down; or fire 3 on dagger, that skill is a big part of damage and the evade is very useful. There are plenty of times mobility, positioning, and cd management is not an option or the other player is just as clever.

    I've played mostly staff, some sword, didn't bother with scepter or dagger for weaver. It doesn't matter though, that's not going to prove that I'm somehow wrong when the fact is that the 3rd weapon skill is gone. Most of them have a use and that use can often times save the ele. I've played plenty of staff weaver in wvw. I don't see what that has to do with this, unless youre saying that because the best weapon for weaver is sword in pvp then play staff/scepter/dagger elsewhere which is ridiculous.

    Yes, the third weapon skill is gone. That's the point. That's the design. If you feel like you need those third skills then Weaver isn't designed around your playstyle and preference. It's designed around the playstyle and preference of other players who don't mind the third skill not being there, for the most part, and who are instead invested in the use of that dual skill.

    The third skill can be important but they are not make or break skills. There are plenty of Weaver players who have no issues with the Elite not having easy access to them. Their importance is 100% up to the player and the player's style of play. They are as important and unimportant as any given player wants them to be. I've seen very little in the way of top Elementalist/Weaver gameplay in which those third skills were the make or break moment that cost them or won them their match.

    I can sort of agree with the rev comparison, I haven't played a ton of rev but enough to get what you're describing. Energy and legend management will certainly make the player play a bit smarter and not spam stuff, sure. It comes down to rev having the tools to deal with most situations and ele not. There is a reason why the best weapon for weaver is sword. While good players can certainly pull off using the other weapons, that doesn't mean that somehow because this player can pull it off that its ok to be denied crucial skills.

    Elementailst has the tools. The issue for Elemenatlist isn't that it lacks tools. It lacks power behind those tools. The pay off is too small in many situations. Well, with the possible exception of sustain. I find that sustain is actually fairly consistent. The reason why the best weapon for Weaver is sword is because sword was specifically designed to maximize the playstyle of the Elite. If those skills were crucial though then there would only be one weapon for Elemenalist to use. A skill can't be so uncruscial that if I switch from staff to something else I can still be fine but so crucial that if I don't have access to them due to a mechanic that all of a sudden I'm in trouble. If they were as crucial as you claim the staff would be the ONLY viable weapon. Or scepter would be the ONLY viable weapon. However, there is some variety in weapon choices and it isn't the case that there is only one weapon that an Elementalist can use or he simply can't function. What you are describing are playstyle issues, not power based issues. I've seen very few Elementalist play videos where a match was won or lost based on the third skill.

    However, being a Revenant main (I also main Elementalist, just to get that out of the way) I can say that the feeling that it lacks all the right tools (the same feeling that you describe for Elementalist) is still present for a lot of players. In many ways Revenant and Elementalist face similar sets of problems. Sometimes a Revenant has the tools it needs and sometimes it doesn't. It really comes down to whether or not the player can make the tools you have work in more than one type of situation than the fact that any given Revenant build has all the tools it needs. It's also why Revenant lacks build diversity, a lot of its tools simply don't work. If I'm going into PvP there is only one meta build to run and that's it.

    I meant the 3rd base skill not the dual skill.

    I know.

    So what I'm hearing is that because 3 out of the 4 weapons aren't very good for weaver, play another spec. Sounds like something is wrong here. Except those other especs work for the other professions because they introduce new mechanics that work instead of replacing ones with something that doesn't.

    No, what I'm saying is that if you feel those skills are important play a spec that supports that playstyle. Far too often people try to fit their preferred playstyle into a spec that doesn't support it. It seems to be the case that whenever a Elite fails to support a playstyle that a person likes they say it sucks and is broken when in many cases that is not true. Weaver introduces new mechanics that work. It just doesn't work for you. How necessary the third skill is is 100% related to the playstyle involved. As I stated beforehand, I really haven't seen much in the way of them being required from other Weaver players and I don't see other Weaver players with this particular complaint.

    All of this tells me that the issue is that it isn't a style of play that you enjoy and that you wish Weaver supported the playstyle you prefer to play under. However, pretty much every Elite runs into this problem. Reaper is not a 1v1 duelist. There are plenty of players who wish that was the case but it is simply not a playstyle Reaper supports. Does this mean that Reaper doesn't work? No. When you play Reaper in playstyles it supports it does wonderfully well. It is only when you try to use it in a playstyle it sucks at do you encounter problems. Power Herald sucks as a support build. If you try to use it for support you are going to fail. Does that mean Power Herald doesn't work and that there is something wrong with the build? No. It just means that support is not supported by Power Herald.

    You have a playstyle that calls for the third skill to be an important part of what you do. Weaver doesn't support that playstyle as it replaces the third skill with something else. This doesn't mean something is wrong with Weaver as that playstyle works for plenty of players. It is the case that no Elite can be all things to all people. They will support various builds to varying degrees but there are some things it sucks at and doesn't support as well as others. In this case, what you find important is something it doesn't do a good job of supporting. That isn't a strike against the Elite. That isn't a strike against you. It just means that there are likely other builds or Elite that is better suited to how you want to play.

    Also, those other weapons do work for Weaver. You just have to be using them in the right way in the right modes of play. Staff Weaver can be a beast in WvW for instance and it is in no way handicapped by not having the traditional third skill. However, you take staff Weaver into PvP it it simply falls apart. Not even having access to the third skill would save it.

    I have but you have either not read them or conveniently overlooked them. Please read above in this quote, or create some scenarios by yourself. Weaver can have all the uniqueness it wants. My proposed change will not affect this, at least the change only to how the dual and 3rd weapon skill interact. The other one about always fully attuning would and I agree that would probably be too far.

    I read them. I don't find any of them convincing and all of them point to playstyle issues and not issues of mechanical imbalances that denote something is wrong with the Elite in question. You haven't said anything that actually proves that a third skill is needed for Weaver. You've just stated it was crucial and expect us to simply accept that as truth. You have yet to actually build a case that they are, in fact, as crucial as you claim to the performance of Weaver. However, you haven't done anything to prove why the dual skill doesn't make up for not having the traditional third skill or proven that without that third skill Weaver is incapable of winning or performing well. Your proposal doesn't actually fix a problem and would just create more problems down the road anyway.

  • Stallic.2397Stallic.2397 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dace.8173 said:
    No, I dismissed your idea because it magnifies the current issues and complaints being lodged by Elementalist players in a lot of these threads. One of the more consistent complaints is that Elementalist is hard and requires a lot of skill but that it doesn't reward players for having that skill. What you suggest is that problem on crack. It being complicated is secondary to the fact that if the reward isn't high enough people will be angry and upset, as they currently are. All nerfs to Core Elementalist damage would be nerfs to Weavers damage which makes the reward part of the equation lower, and we get threads with 500 posts talking about how Weaver is not worth it.

    I honestly don't care about how complicated it is.

    My discussion on the third skill for Weaver isn't related to a higher skill level, more reward game play. The third skill for Weaver doesn't make it more complicated to play. The issue lodged by the OP isn't a complexity-based issue but a preference on playstyle based issue. The OP prefers it that the third skill was more accessible and that you didn't have to give it up to play Weaver. I disagree with it, but this isn't a complexity-based problem. Having access to the third skill is 100% a playstyle preference and they really aren't a need but a want. If you watch the play videos of top Weaver players you see that they don't really focus too much on the third skill in their play and rotation. However, if you need those third skills then Weaver is really not the profession you should be playing as Weaver upfront askes you to give those third skills up in favor of a new dual skill. That's the play requirement involved.

    Yes, the third weapon skill is gone. That's the point. That's the design. If you feel like you need those third skills then Weaver isn't designed around your playstyle and preference. It's designed around the playstyle and preference of other players who don't mind the third skill not being there, for the most part, and who are instead invested in the use of that dual skill.

    The third skill can be important but they are not make or break skills. There are plenty of Weaver players who have no issues with the Elite not having easy access to them. Their importance is 100% up to the player and the player's style of play. They are as important and unimportant as any given player wants them to be. I've seen very little in the way of top Elementalist/Weaver gameplay in which those third skills were the make or break moment that cost them or won them their match.

    No, what I'm saying is that if you feel those skills are important play a spec that supports that playstyle. Far too often people try to fit their preferred playstyle into a spec that doesn't support it. It seems to be the case that whenever a Elite fails to support a playstyle that a person likes they say it sucks and is broken when in many cases that is not true. Weaver introduces new mechanics that work. It just doesn't work for you. How necessary the third skill is is 100% related to the playstyle involved. As I stated beforehand, I really haven't seen much in the way of them being required from other Weaver players and I don't see other Weaver players with this particular complaint.

    All of this tells me that the issue is that it isn't a style of play that you enjoy and that you wish Weaver supported the playstyle you prefer to play under. However, pretty much every Elite runs into this problem. Reaper is not a 1v1 duelist. There are plenty of players who wish that was the case but it is simply not a playstyle Reaper supports. Does this mean that Reaper doesn't work? No. When you play Reaper in playstyles it supports it does wonderfully well. It is only when you try to use it in a playstyle it sucks at do you encounter problems. Power Herald sucks as a support build. If you try to use it for support you are going to fail. Does that mean Power Herald doesn't work and that there is something wrong with the build? No. It just means that support is not supported by Power Herald.

    You have a playstyle that calls for the third skill to be an important part of what you do. Weaver doesn't support that playstyle as it replaces the third skill with something else. This doesn't mean something is wrong with Weaver as that playstyle works for plenty of players. It is the case that no Elite can be all things to all people. They will support various builds to varying degrees but there are some things it sucks at and doesn't support as well as others. In this case, what you find important is something it doesn't do a good job of supporting. That isn't a strike against the Elite. That isn't a strike against you. It just means that there are likely other builds or Elite that is better suited to how you want to play.

    I read them. I don't find any of them convincing and all of them point to playstyle issues and not issues of mechanical imbalances that denote something is wrong with the Elite in question. You haven't said anything that actually proves that a third skill is needed for Weaver. You've just stated it was crucial and expect us to simply accept that as truth. You have yet to actually build a case that they are, in fact, as crucial as you claim to the performance of Weaver. However, you haven't done anything to prove why the dual skill doesn't make up for not having the traditional third skill or proven that without that third skill Weaver is incapable of winning or performing well. Your proposal doesn't actually fix a problem and would just create more problems down the road anyway.

    So to sum up this rather long post, weaver is a different playstyle that doesn't rely on the 3rd skill. This assumption is off of other players who use weaver without using 3rd skill abilities. If players want to use their 3rd skill, they should just reroll another elite profession.

    Sry, but that's all wrong. Even the dev's won't agree with you on that.
    Weaver teases the idea of using your 3rd skill. That's why unravel kitten exists! The devs even encourage you to double attune and use your 3rd skill. The trait Element's of Rage gives you bonuses if you double attune! I have no idea where you're coming up with this written rule that it's a "playstyle". It's not. If 3rd skill was never supposed to be used, they would have just removed it from weaver's access.
    Even if all of that was untrue, devs have reworked traits lines, changed weapon skills and mechanics. This argument about "that's just the way it plays" is ridiculous. Anything can be changed and this thread is about improving Ele, not keeping it the same.

    The op said gaining access to the 3rd skill is clunky, which it is. And as I just mentioned above, yes, the devs want you to use your third skill! That's what this thread is about, not whether the 3rd skill is viable, but how to gain better access to it.

  • Dace.8173Dace.8173 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 6, 2018

    @Stallic.2397 said:
    So to sum up this rather long post, weaver is a different playstyle that doesn't rely on the 3rd skill. This assumption is off of other players who use weaver without using 3rd skill abilities. If players want to use their 3rd skill, they should just reroll another elite profession.

    Sry, but that's all wrong. Even the dev's won't agree with you on that.
    Weaver teases the idea of using your 3rd skill. That's why unravel kitten exists! The devs even encourage you to double attune and use your 3rd skill. The trait Element's of Rage gives you bonuses if you double attune! I have no idea where you're coming up with this written rule that it's a "playstyle". It's not. If 3rd skill was never supposed to be used, they would have just removed it from weaver's access.
    Even if all of that was untrue, devs have reworked traits lines, changed weapon skills and mechanics. This argument about "that's just the way it plays" is ridiculous. Anything can be changed and this thread is about improving Ele, not keeping it the same.

    The op said gaining access to the 3rd skill is clunky, which it is. And as I just mentioned above, yes, the devs want you to use your third skill! That's what this thread is about, not whether the 3rd skill is viable, but how to gain better access to it.

    The post is only long because I'm responding to two separate people. Don't be querulous.

    As for Weaver, the assumption isn't based on other people. It's based on what Elites are and what it actually does. Elites are meant to introduce a different playstyle. They are intended to change how a profession is played. That's what's Arena Net said on the matter. The fact that Weaver turns your third skill into a dual skill makes it more than obvious that it's developing a play style around the balancing of two elements and the use of dual skills. Even the introduction video for Weaver places a focus on the dual skill.

    The introduction of Unravel doesn't change that. It's just an additional tool for people who want it. They anticipated that some people would want a quick and easy access to that third skill so gave them something to do that with. That doesn't change its playstyle though. The inherent flaw in the argument you're making, and the OP, is that the third skill is supposed to be important in Weaver. If the traditional third skill was viewed as important though they wouldn't have transformed it into a dual skill. It isn't even important in non-Weaver builds either. Their value is more or less placed on it by the player. It's not like it's Lava Font or something.

    Which is why it's a playstyle. They give you plenty of tools but the playstyle of Weaver is not focused on the use of a traditional third skill but the balancing of two elements and the dual skill. They made a video to say as much. The dual skill is one of the stronger skills in the Weavers set of skills. They encourage you to use them, to the point that you gain more benefit from the use of a dual skill as opposed to the normal third skill. You can see this from the fact that dual skills often offer you more DPS, can stack more condi, typically has more boons, and grants barrier. The standard third skill doesn't come close to that in most cases. By design dual skills are the intended focus. I'd develop this point further by comparing the various third and dual skills but you'd just complain about the length of my posts.

    Also, sure, anything can be changed. But that's a ridiculously silly argument to make. I can also argue that they don't change things and pretty much can support it by the sheer number of things that have remained the same. It's not an actual argument that is worth making or worth taking seriously. I only address it to point out just how ludicrous it is.

    Do the Devs want you to use your third skill? Sure, they didn't take it away. However, they want you to use the dual skill more, as evident by the fact they built an entire Elite around the concept, in addition to all the other stuff about them I've mentioned. Is getting to that third skill clunky? Sure. However, it's clunky because the playstyle places a higher focus on dual skills than the traditional third skill. In either case, this is not a mechanical problem. It's a playstyle issue in which some people place a very high value on the standard third skill. If you can't adapt to how you reach that skill and that skill is extremely important to you then clearly Weaver is not suited to your style of play. There are those, however, that have none of those problems that the OP or even you outline. What the OP suggested doesn't even make it less clunky.

    I've yet to see a top Weaver complain about getting to that third skill.

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 6, 2018

    @SoulSlavocracy.4902 said:
    snips

    Disagreeable temperament? Such an accusation lol... I gotta nitpick to defend my turf against all you naysayers out there! Anyway gg agree to disagree and all that.

    @Dace.8173 said:
    snips

    If you think that the 3rd skill isn't make or break then why aren't there any weavers using other weapons consistently besides sword in a high rank pvp setting? Who besides Cellofrag plays weaver anyway lol? Ele's weapons would need a lot more love then just my proposed change but it would go pretty far in terms of increasing effectiveness. You say you're an ele main but argue that weaver is fine without that 3rd skill... I really don't get it. Dagger fire 3/air 3/earth 3, scepter fire 3/water 3/air 3, staff water 3/air 3/ earth 3 are all really good tools. Some are crucial despite your claim, which is why since they aren't available the weapon set suffers a lot. You go on about playstyle, I don't understand this part. Being denied skills isn't a playstyle. My change would enhance weavers playstyle, since how can access to more skills be a bad thing? Especially when those skills are really helpful in some situations? No other professions espec denies core skills, some of which are necessary parts of offense or defense. I can see your point with reaper, but it introduces a new mechanic that works for whats its intended for, whereas with weaver it has a not really viable bunker build and that's it. If you think weaver is fine in pvp you're wrong.

    You haven't said anything that actually proves that a third skill is needed for Weaver. You've just stated it was crucial and expect us to simply accept that as truth.

    I expect people who are familiar with ele to know that having access to the 3rd skill is important. We could talk for ages about specific scenarios, go back and forth over different videos, but it would be a waste of time.

    Your proposal doesn't actually fix a problem and would just create more problems down the road anyway.

    Care to elaborate?

  • eh... I really like the #3 skills on staff when weaving. They are just so sweet (fire earth anyone, for another fire field?) but I dont pvp, I am a dirty wvw zergling...

  • Dace.8173Dace.8173 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    If you think that the 3rd skill isn't make or break then why aren't there any weavers using other weapons consistently besides sword in a high rank pvp setting? Who besides Cellofrag plays weaver anyway lol? Ele's weapons would need a lot more love then just my proposed change but it would go pretty far in terms of increasing effectiveness. You say you're an ele main but argue that weaver is fine without that 3rd skill... I really don't get it. Dagger fire 3/air 3/earth 3, scepter fire 3/water 3/air 3, staff water 3/air 3/ earth 3 are all really good tools. Some are crucial despite your claim, which is why since they aren't available the weapon set suffers a lot. You go on about playstyle, I don't understand this part. Being denied skills isn't a playstyle. My change would enhance weavers playstyle, since how can access to more skills be a bad thing? Especially when those skills are really helpful in some situations? No other professions espec denies core skills, some of which are necessary parts of offense or defense. I can see your point with reaper, but it introduces a new mechanic that works for whats its intended for, whereas with weaver it has a not really viable bunker build and that's it. If you think weaver is fine in pvp you're wrong.

    Mostly because the sword is Weaver's strongest weapon. Sword was designed around getting the most out of Weaver's benefits. It offers you more offensive power in a PvP environment and more defensive power in a PvP environment that doesn't require the same kind of setup that staff does. Staff Weaver doesn't have the required leeway to do the kind of setup that makes staff a better weapon. However, staff Weaver is strong in WvW and some of the end game PvE content. Not every weapon works well in a PvP setting. A weapon not working well in PvP doesn't mean the mechanic of the Elite are broken or it doesn't work. In most professions, the mode of play will require a different set of weapons. Slow weapons that focus on team support don't always do well in PvP as the setup time isn't there.

    However, let's compare, shall we?

    Staff Fire 3 is Flame Blast which does 40 damage and then 2 stacks of burning for 1572 damage. Then we have Pyroclastic Blast (Fire/Earth) that does 323 damage. pulse damage of 161, 393 burning damage, 191 burning pulse damage, does 4 pulses and drops a Fire field. The condition from Flame Blast can easily be cleansed diluting its impact while Pyroclastic will keep reapplying it with each pulse. We then have Pressure Blast (Fire/Water) which does 404 damage, heals for 650, 4s Regen for 520 heal, and 4s of blindness all of which hits 5 targets. Finally, there is Plasma blast (Fire/Air) that does 670 damage. Not the workhorse of the other two but does look amazingly cool (all the plasma attacks do, honestly). In two out of three situations the dual skill is stronger than the standard skill. Or let's look at Earth 3 since you mentioned it. It's a very simple Magnetic Aura that reflects projectiles and then can be sequenced for 404 damage and Protection. I've already covered Pyroclastic Blast so moving on to Lahar (Water/Earth) we get 505 damage x5, and 5s of Crippled and then the awesomely named Pile Driver (Earth/Air) which does 847 damage, 2s of daze, pierces and is a projectile combo finisher. I'm not going to do every skill as that's just tedious. However, the point I'm illustrating is that the dual skill is, in most cases, hands down doing more for the player than the normal third skill. I'm getting more bang for my buck in almost every case. I'm stacking more conditions, I'm gaining boons, I'm doing more damage, I'm creating multiple damage sources and types, I'm dropping combo fields, I'm combo finishing. I'm getting a lot more from my dual skill. It may be the case that the third skill is a good tool, but the dual skill is better.

    If you value the standard third skill over the dual skill, however, you are 100% making a playstyle choice as the dual skills can do more for you than the standard third skill in addition to giving you more tools to work with than you get with the standard third skill. I value the dual skill over the third skill. I am making a playstyle choice. I am opting to get most of my extra power from the various dual skills than I am the standard third skill. Your argument that you are being denied skills is simply false. You aren't denied the standard third skill. Being denied a skill means it is removed altogether. It is still there, you just have to double attune. That does require more work but this just means you have to be thinking three moves ahead and anticipating the need to double attune well before you actually need to double attune. It can, and often is, done. Good players are typically two to three moves ahead of everyone else and are always engaged in setups for big payoffs. The claim that the standard third skill is a necessary part of offense and defense is simply not true. Top Weaver players do fine on offense and defense without having easy access to them. You can make the claim that they are important to you. The claim that they are important to everyone is simply not true. Weaver provides you with new offense and defense abilities to compensate and to claim that a Weaver has to have easy access to them is to blatantly ignore all the tools you are given.

    Also, no other profession denies core skills? Holosmith denies the player the elite skill toolbelt, Scourge denies the player Shroud, Dragonhunter and Firebrand deny the player Virtue of Justice, Resolve, and Courage, Deadeye denies the player of Steal. Elites do, in fact, deny a player core skills. Granted Weaver doesn't do this but the point you made is not true.

    As for whether or not I think Weaver is fine in PvP, it's not a statement I have ever made, so telling me I'm wrong is a bit presumptuous on your part and isn't based on any facts I've laid out.

    I expect people who are familiar with ele to know that having access to the 3rd skill is important. We could talk for ages about specific scenarios, go back and forth over different videos, but it would be a waste of time.

    This isn't a truth. This is your opinion based on your playstyle. If I went down the list of every dual skill I could hands down show how they are better than the standard third skill and how they offer you more bang for your buck.

    Care to elaborate?

    Being fully attuned always defeats the purpose of being Weaver. If you want that, play standard Elementalist or Tempest. As for the third skill, what you're trying to do is create a sequence skill. You're doing so based on an untrue assessment of the situation but you are still trying to do that. Skills don't get two separate CDs. That's far too clunky to have a skill be cooling down for one power thus giving you access to another power and then both of them having separate cooldowns. Maybe there is a skill like that in the game but I can't think of any off the top of my head and I imagine they are few and far between. However, to do what you describe you would turn the third skill slot into a sequence skill. This would mean you used your dual skill then it flips to the third skill. The problem with that is one of two things would happen, either the window to use that third skill would be very brief or the cooldown would be longer. Both of these options will be impacted by the fact that you can double attune to get access to the third skill anyway. So this would either mean the window to use the third skill is even smaller or the cooldown is longer than above. If it worked as you described with no changes you would discover that, more often than not, the third skill you find to be so crucial is not as available to you as often you think it would. Two separate cooldowns would basically be longer than the simple 4 seconds it takes to double attune. In most cases, it would simply be faster to double attune than it would be to wait for the skill to come down off of cooldown.

    You're creating a clunky mechanic that would not be faster than double attuning.

  • lLobo.7960lLobo.7960 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dace.8173 said:
    You're creating a clunky mechanic that would not be faster than double attuning.

    The OP cant pvp with the spec and weapon he choose because people focus him down, he then, wants the spec to be changed to suit him instead of using the multitude of tools available for him to adapt to his problems. He won't accept any reasoning. Just let it die.

    There are tons of things that could help ele and weaver to do better in all game modes.
    This suggestion is just not one of them.

    Your plan is just stupid and won't work!

  • Ganathar.4956Ganathar.4956 Member ✭✭✭

    It's arguable that the entire ele class is underperforming in competetive modes. Weaver is just the best option for a generally uncompetetive profession. This means that it's not weaver that is the problem. The main problems of ele come from core ele and to a lesser extent from tempest.

  • Dace.8173Dace.8173 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @lLobo.7960 said:

    @Dace.8173 said:
    You're creating a clunky mechanic that would not be faster than double attuning.

    The OP cant pvp with the spec and weapon he choose because people focus him down, he then, wants the spec to be changed to suit him instead of using the multitude of tools available for him to adapt to his problems. He won't accept any reasoning. Just let it die.

    There are tons of things that could help ele and weaver to do better in all game modes.
    This suggestion is just not one of them.

    Your plan is just stupid and won't work!

    While I may feel the OP isn't making the best use of all the tools Weavers offers him I wouldn't be engaged in the topic with the level of detail I give to my points if I felt he was beyond reasoning. I've spent a lot of time on Weaver and so I feel I see a lot more of its upside. I also happen to use Weave Self a lot (which would also be a faster solution to the OP's issue) so I'm used to flipping through attunements in rapid succession. I also play Weaver the same way I play Revenant, meaning I'm always thinking two or three steps ahead and attuning before I need something the same way I Legend swap before I need to. I also main Engineer which is another "think three steps ahead" profession. Honestly, the only profession I play regularly that isn't micromanagement chess moves is Guardian. I just love Dragonhunter (oh how I want a new Legendary longbow or greatsword, the current ones suck in my book).

    @Ganathar.4956 said:
    It's arguable that the entire ele class is underperforming in competetive modes. Weaver is just the best option for a generally uncompetetive profession. This means that it's not weaver that is the problem. The main problems of ele come from core ele and to a lesser extent from tempest.

    I don't see Tempest as a problem. Its issues wouldn't really impact Weaver since the two can't mix and mingle. All things considered, if Elementalist (and by extension Weaver and Tempest) had stronger attacks it would be doing better in competitive modes. Weaver has plenty of sustain, evade, and healing. I often find that I'm hard to kill but likewise I just don't bring the thunder. I find myself in a lot of situations where I'm dancing around someone and they aren't able to kill me until a +1 shows up. If Weaver (in particular sword Weaver) could deliver some solid blows it would be an amazing duelist. The best I can hope for in many instances is to delay a cap or tie up one or more opposing players as they try to kill me, which in turn gives my team the chance to cap other points while the opposing team is undermanned.

  • Stallic.2397Stallic.2397 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 7, 2018

    @Dace.8173 said:

    Because that's the playstyle of Weaver and when you play one you sign up for that. If you want that #3 skill you have Core and Tempest to play. Weaver is meant for other people who want that extra challenge. When you play Weaver you are pretty much forgoing your standard #3 skill. Just like when you play Dragonhunter and Firebrand you forgo the standard Virtues and when you play Scourge you forgo the standard Shroud. These are all things that a player knows up front and is agreeing to when they opt to play that Elite.

    My discussion on the third skill for Weaver isn't related to a higher skill level, more reward game play. The third skill for Weaver doesn't make it more complicated to play. The issue lodged by the OP isn't a complexity-based issue but a preference on playstyle based issue. The OP prefers it that the third skill was more accessible and that you didn't have to give it up to play Weaver. I disagree with it, but this isn't a complexity-based problem. Having access to the third skill is 100% a playstyle preference and they really aren't a need but a want. If you watch the play videos of top Weaver players you see that they don't really focus too much on the third skill in their play and rotation. However, if you need those third skills then Weaver is really not the profession you should be playing as Weaver upfront askes you to give those third skills up in favor of a new dual skill. That's the play requirement involved.
    Yes, the third weapon skill is gone. That's the point. That's the design. If you feel like you need those third skills then Weaver isn't designed around your playstyle and preference. It's designed around the playstyle and preference of other players who don't mind the third skill not being there, for the most part, and who are instead invested in the use of that dual skill.

    The third skill can be important but they are not make or break skills. There are plenty of Weaver players who have no issues with the Elite not having easy access to them. Their importance is 100% up to the player and the player's style of play. They are as important and unimportant as any given player wants them to be. I've seen very little in the way of top Elementalist/Weaver gameplay in which those third skills were the make or break moment that cost them or won them their match.
    No, what I'm saying is that if you feel those skills are important play a spec that supports that playstyle. Far too often people try to fit their preferred playstyle into a spec that doesn't support it. It seems to be the case that whenever a Elite fails to support a playstyle that a person likes they say it sucks and is broken when in many cases that is not true. Weaver introduces new mechanics that work. It just doesn't work for you. How necessary the third skill is is 100% related to the playstyle involved. As I stated beforehand, I really haven't seen much in the way of them being required from other Weaver players and I don't see other Weaver players with this particular complaint.

    You have a playstyle that calls for the third skill to be an important part of what you do. Weaver doesn't support that playstyle as it replaces the third skill with something else. This doesn't mean something is wrong with Weaver as that playstyle works for plenty of players. It is the case that no Elite can be all things to all people. They will support various builds to varying degrees but there are some things it sucks at and doesn't support as well as others. In this case, what you find important is something it doesn't do a good job of supporting. That isn't a strike against the Elite. That isn't a strike against you. It just means that there are likely other builds or Elite that is better suited to how you want to play.

    @Dace.8173 said:
    The introduction of Unravel doesn't change that. It's just an additional tool for people who want it. They anticipated that some people would want a quick and easy access to that third skill so gave them something to do that with. That doesn't change its playstyle though. The inherent flaw in the argument you're making, and the OP, is that the third skill is supposed to be important in Weaver. If the traditional third skill was viewed as important though they wouldn't have transformed it into a dual skill. It isn't even important in non-Weaver builds either. Their value is more or less placed on it by the player. It's not like it's Lava Font or something.

    Which is why it's a playstyle. They give you plenty of tools but the playstyle of Weaver is not focused on the use of a traditional third skill but the balancing of two elements and the dual skill. They made a video to say as much. The dual skill is one of the stronger skills in the Weavers set of skills. They encourage you to use them, to the point that you gain more benefit from the use of a dual skill as opposed to the normal third skill. You can see this from the fact that dual skills often offer you more DPS, can stack more condi, typically has more boons, and grants barrier. The standard third skill doesn't come close to that in most cases. By design dual skills are the intended focus. I'd develop this point further by comparing the various third and dual skills but you'd just complain about the length of my posts.
    Do the Devs want you to use your third skill? Sure, they didn't take it away. However, they want you to use the dual skill more, as evident by the fact they built an entire Elite around the concept, in addition to all the other stuff about them I've mentioned. Is getting to that third skill clunky? Sure. However, it's clunky because the playstyle places a higher focus on dual skills than the traditional third skill. In either case, this is not a mechanical problem. It's a playstyle issue in which some people place a very high value on the standard third skill. If you can't adapt to how you reach that skill and that skill is extremely important to you then clearly Weaver is not suited to your style of play. There are those, however, that have none of those problems that the OP or even you outline. What the OP suggested doesn't even make it less clunky.

    @Dace.8173 said:
    If you value the standard third skill over the dual skill, however, you are 100% making a playstyle choice as the dual skills can do more for you than the standard third skill in addition to giving you more tools to work with than you get with the standard third skill. I value the dual skill over the third skill. I am making a playstyle choice. I am opting to get most of my extra power from the various dual skills than I am the standard third skill. Your argument that you are being denied skills is simply false. You aren't denied the standard third skill. Being denied a skill means it is removed altogether. It is still there, you just have to double attune. That does require more work but this just means you have to be thinking three moves ahead and anticipating the need to double attune well before you actually need to double attune. It can, and often is, done. Good players are typically two to three moves ahead of everyone else and are always engaged in setups for big payoffs. The claim that the standard third skill is a necessary part of offense and defense is simply not true. Top Weaver players do fine on offense and defense without having easy access to them. You can make the claim that they are important to you. The claim that they are important to everyone is simply not true. Weaver provides you with new offense and defense abilities to compensate and to claim that a Weaver has to have easy access to them is to blatantly ignore all the tools you are given.
    This isn't a truth. This is your opinion based on your playstyle. If I went down the list of every dual skill I could hands down show how they are better than the standard third skill and how they offer you more bang for your buck.
    Being fully attuned always defeats the purpose of being Weaver. If you want that, play standard Elementalist or Tempest. As for the third skill, what you're trying to do is create a sequence skill. You're doing so based on an untrue assessment of the situation but you are still trying to do that. Skills don't get two separate CDs. That's far too clunky to have a skill be cooling down for one power thus giving you access to another power and then both of them having separate cooldowns. Maybe there is a skill like that in the game but I can't think of any off the top of my head and I imagine they are few and far between. However, to do what you describe you would turn the third skill slot into a sequence skill. This would mean you used your dual skill then it flips to the third skill. The problem with that is one of two things would happen, either the window to use that third skill would be very brief or the cooldown would be longer. Both of these options will be impacted by the fact that you can double attune to get access to the third skill anyway. So this would either mean the window to use the third skill is even smaller or the cooldown is longer than above. If it worked as you described with no changes you would discover that, more often than not, the third skill you find to be so crucial is not as available to you as often you think it would. Two separate cooldowns would basically be longer than the simple 4 seconds it takes to double attune. In most cases, it would simply be faster to double attune than it would be to wait for the skill to come down off of cooldown.

    You're creating a clunky mechanic that would not be faster than double attuning.

    You're contradicting yourself with every post to the point that it's aggravating to debate against. Look at everything I've quoted, from your own words.

    "If you're playing weaver, you're forgoing your 3rd skill" Well "pretty much", is what you added to that sentence, just to cover the gray area in case you're wrong. "Yes, the third weapon skill is gone. That's the point. That's the design. If you feel like you need those third skills then Weaver isn't designed around your playstyle and preference Because that's the playstyle of Weaver and when you play one you sign up for that. If you want that #3 skill you have Core and Tempest to play." These points all add up to saying weavers don't need the third skill.

    But then you say, "Do the Devs want you to use your third skill? Sure, they didn't take it away." ... I thought it was gone. I thought weaver was forgoing the third skill? Which one is it! Lol. The devs are the ones who created weaver, so if they want me to use my third skill, then that's the playstyle, not some community weaver who decides what the rotation is.

    "_The third skill can be important but they are not make or break skills. Their importance is 100% up to the player and the player's style of play. They are as important and unimportant as any given player wants them to be. _" What does this even mean?!? You're honestly jumping back and forth in just two sentences. Third skills are important, but then again they're not? It's based on the player? If it's based on the player, then all of your comments are irrelevant; you write a whole post about how third skills are not needed. But if it's based on the player, than that means your comments are just opinion. In fact, I think this whole "playstyle" you're referring to is just your personal playstyle of weaver, not general concurrence.

    It's getting to the point where I have no idea what point you're trying to prove. I already proved that the devs want you to use it. You already agreed that the third skill is clunky to receive . All OP is trying to do is remove the clunky-ness. You mention that if the Duel skill and Third skill overlap each other, it'll create small windows of opportunity which is confusing. I disagree. Duel skills will always gain access priority as OP mentioned, and if you lost the chance of using your third skill, then double attune.
    As of now, to get access to third skills you have to double attune, that takes 8 sec, then you have to jump out of the attunement, which is another 4 sec. I don't see how wasting 12 sec in total is actually better than the OP suggestion.
    By the way, you made a whole post about how playing ele and revenant has taught you to prepare ahead of time, before the opportunity exists, so use those amazing skills to flip back and forth between Duel and Third.

  • Dace.8173Dace.8173 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stallic.2397 said:

    You're contradicting yourself with every post to the point that it's aggravating to debate against. Look at everything I've quoted, from your own words.

    Haha cute but no.

    "If you're playing weaver, you're forgoing your 3rd skill" Well "pretty much", is what you added to that sentence, just to cover the gray area in case you're wrong. "Yes, the third weapon skill is gone. That's the point. That's the design. If you feel like you need those third skills then Weaver isn't designed around your playstyle and preference Because that's the playstyle of Weaver and when you play one you sign up for that. If you want that #3 skill you have Core and Tempest to play." These points all add up to saying weavers don't need the third skill.

    But then you say, "Do the Devs want you to use your third skill? Sure, they didn't take it away." ... I thought it was gone. I thought weaver was forgoing the third skill? Which one is it! Lol. The devs are the ones who created weaver, so if they want me to use my third skill, then that's the playstyle, not some community weaver who decides what the rotation is.

    Not a contradiction (also, don't be pedantic, it's a mark of arguing from a dishonest intent). I'm speaking of focus in the quoted parts. Clearly, they didn't remove the skill. Arguing that it is denied or removed would be silly. It is clearly, physically, still there. But the focus is clearly on the dual skill and not the traditional third skill. It's why you have to double attune to get to it. If you feel you need to use the third skill is in reference to the value you place on it, as in if you feel the third skill is an important part of playing Elementalist then you need to play something that gives you easy access to it and not add an extra step. Weaver isn't designed around a focus on the traditional third skill but around the use of the dual skill. The Devs do still want you to make use of the third skill, as they kept it, even gave sword the a third skill, and even gave an ability to quickly attune to a single element. There is a world of difference between Developers giving you options and tools and the playstyle that develops for a profession and Elite. I'm getting the sense you don't get what playstyles are.

    The "pretty much" isn't to cover being wrong but admitting that you can still use it and that it isn't actually taken away from you. It's also just a reflection of how I speak in general. I have a habit of adding things like "for the most part" and "pretty much" to my statements when in conversation with people. Don't read too much into it.

    C'mon dude, keep up.

    "_The third skill can be important but they are not make or break skills. Their importance is 100% up to the player and the player's style of play. They are as important and unimportant as any given player wants them to be. _" What does this even mean?!? You're honestly jumping back and forth in just two sentences. Third skills are important, but then again they're not? It's based on the player? If it's based on the player, then all of your comments are irrelevant; you write a whole post about how third skills are not needed. But if it's based on the player, than that means your comments are just opinion. In fact, I think this whole "playstyle" you're referring to is just your personal playstyle of weaver, not general concurrence.

    Ummm, it means that the importance of any given skill is player based. Not that hard, man. I'm getting more and more convinced you don't get what a playstyle entails. Also, don't act like you're dropping this huge knowledge bomb that I'm, in part, referring to my personal playstyle. I've said as much. I've been very upfront that I place a higher value on the dual skill when I play Weaver. I've also pointed out that the playstyle I use is one that I've seen from top Weaver players. I'm a firm believer in learning from others so I've watched my fair share of Weaver videos to see what top players do better than me so that I can do better. They don't put a focus on the traditional third skill.

    It's getting to the point where I have no idea what point you're trying to prove. I already proved that the devs want you to use it. You already agreed that the third skill is clunky to receive . All OP is trying to do is remove the clunky-ness. You mention that if the Duel skill and Third skill overlap each other, it'll create small windows of opportunity which is confusing. I disagree. Duel skills will always gain access priority as OP mentioned, and if you lost the chance of using your third skill, then double attune.

    I'm getting to the point where I feel you are not really arguing honestly. The OP has gotten my point's and I've had a constructive conversation with him. You're choosing to take things out of context and act like I'm confusing and contradicting. If you are confused and don't understand then that's on you. The OP's suggestion will add more time to do what he wants. His suggestion is more clunky than how it currently works. It takes 4 secs to double attune. His suggestion would put a cooldown on the skills he wants access to longer than 4 seconds and would result in fewer uses than he currently can do now. You're free to disagree but you're wrong.

    At any rate, this bores me and so this is the last post from you I'll read and respond to.

    By the way, you made a whole post about how playing ele and revenant has taught you to prepare ahead of time, before the opportunity exists, so use those amazing skills to flip back and forth between Duel and Third.

    Dual. Duel is means fight between two people.

  • Stallic.2397Stallic.2397 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dace.8173 said:

    Not a contradiction (also, don't be pedantic, it's a mark of arguing from a dishonest intent). I'm speaking of focus in the quoted parts. Clearly, they didn't remove the skill. Arguing that it is denied or removed would be silly. It is clearly, physically, still there. But the focus is clearly on the dual skill and not the traditional third skill. It's why you have to double attune to get to it. If you feel you need to use the third skill is in reference to the value you place on it, as in if you feel the third skill is an important part of playing Elementalist then you need to play something that gives you easy access to it and not add an extra step. Weaver isn't designed around a focus on the traditional third skill but around the use of the dual skill. The Devs do still want you to make use of the third skill, as they kept it, even gave sword the a third skill, and even gave an ability to quickly attune to a single element. There is a world of difference between Developers giving you options and tools and the playstyle that develops for a profession and Elite. I'm getting the sense you don't get what playstyles are.
    Ummm, it means that the importance of any given skill is player based. Not that hard, man. I'm getting more and more convinced you don't get what a playstyle entails. Also, don't act like you're dropping this huge knowledge bomb that I'm, in part, referring to my personal playstyle. I've said as much. I've been very upfront that I place a higher value on the dual skill when I play Weaver. I've also pointed out that the playstyle I use is one that I've seen from top Weaver players. I'm a firm believer in learning from others so I've watched my fair share of Weaver videos to see what top players do better than me so that I can do better. They don't put a focus on the traditional third skill.

    Sigh, you're just missing the point... Yes, your words physically contradict with each other, which is funny to point out. But, even the ideas contradict. At first you make a post saying that Weaver doesn't need the third skill. Now your argument is changing to say that Weaver isn't focused around third skill, but its dual skill. Which is obvious. I wouldn't argue against that.

    That's why the top weavers you're referring to rarely use their third skill. As of right now, dual skills are easily available and third skills are clunky to get to (which you said so yourself). But this thread isn't about what's currently optimal, it's about making Weaver better. The Dev's want weavers to use their third skill and there's a better way to get to it!

    The OP's suggestion will add more time to do what he wants. His suggestion is more clunky than how it currently works. It takes 4 secs to double attune. His suggestion would put a cooldown on the skills he wants access to longer than 4 seconds and would result in fewer uses than he currently can do now. You're free to disagree but you're wrong.

    Double attuning takes 4 sec? If i'm in water and I want magnetic aura, I first have to attune to earth (4 sec) then double attune (another 4 sec) and by that time, in sPvp, you're dead. But let's say you somehow survive- if I want to return to my rotation, I have to attune to another element (4 sec), which is a huge waste of time.

    The OP suggestion isn't more clunky than a 12 sec waste of time.

  • Ganathar.4956Ganathar.4956 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dace.8173 said:

    @Ganathar.4956 said:
    It's arguable that the entire ele class is underperforming in competetive modes. Weaver is just the best option for a generally uncompetetive profession. This means that it's not weaver that is the problem. The main problems of ele come from core ele and to a lesser extent from tempest.

    I don't see Tempest as a problem. Its issues wouldn't really impact Weaver since the two can't mix and mingle. All things considered, if Elementalist (and by extension Weaver and Tempest) had stronger attacks it would be doing better in competitive modes. Weaver has plenty of sustain, evade, and healing. I often find that I'm hard to kill but likewise I just don't bring the thunder. I find myself in a lot of situations where I'm dancing around someone and they aren't able to kill me until a +1 shows up. If Weaver (in particular sword Weaver) could deliver some solid blows it would be an amazing duelist. The best I can hope for in many instances is to delay a cap or tie up one or more opposing players as they try to kill me, which in turn gives my team the chance to cap other points while the opposing team is undermanned.

    I probably didn't phrase it very well, but I was arguing that tempest has more problems as an elite spec than weaver since it's less competetive in every single game mode. Weaver is the best spec that ele has, so clearly the mechanic is not that bad. It's mostly the rest of the profession that is underwhelming.

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 9, 2018

    @Dace.8173 said:
    Sword was designed around getting the most out of Weaver's benefits.

    Sword is the only weapon designed to work with weaver in pvp at a competitive level. Wanna take a guess as to why that is?

    A weapon not working well in PvP doesn't mean the mechanic of the Elite are broken or it doesn't work.

    Never said that. I thought it was pretty clear that my suggestion to improve gameplay is just that, a suggestion.

    If you value the standard third skill over the dual skill, however, you are 100% making a playstyle choice...

    I don't, so I'm not. They are both useful.

    Your argument that you are being denied skills is simply false. You aren't denied the standard third skill. Being denied a skill means it is removed altogether. It is still there, you just have to double attune.

    Technically true, wrong in practice. When a skill is needed immediately then waiting 4 seconds to double attune will not work.

    Good players are typically two to three moves ahead of everyone else and are always engaged in setups for big payoffs. Top Weaver players do fine on offense and defense without having easy access to them.

    Oh yeah lol? So there are weavers out there that can think 4 seconds ahead and use scepter air 3 to blind a big hitting skill? They are able to maintain that godlike omnipresence throughout a 1v1 or teamfight? Amazing. I suppose since there are lots of these godlike players out there that I should forget about this QoL change that would improve gameplay for the rest of us mortals. Which top weavers would these be, and do they use anything else but sword? Also would these top weavers be against my idea or are you claiming to speak for them?

    Also, no other profession denies core skills?

    No. They replace them with something that works, whereas weaver doesn't really work with anything but sword in pvp at a competitive level.

    As for whether or not I think Weaver is fine in PvP, it's not a statement I have ever made, so telling me I'm wrong is a bit presumptuous on your part and isn't based on any facts I've laid out.

    I said if. If you think its fine.

    The claim that the standard third skill is a necessary part of offense and defense is simply not true.

    This tells me you are a bit clueless as to the importance of the 3rd skill.

    Being fully attuned always defeats the purpose of being Weaver.

    My first suggestion didn't say this, but my second one did and I agreed it would be a bit too far. Please don't confuse the two.

    Skills don't get two separate CDs. That's far too clunky to have a skill be cooling down for one power thus giving you access to another power and then both of them having separate cooldowns.

    Finally a fair point, but I think it would be fine for weaver only since it makes things flow better and fits thematically. If you disagree then so be it.

    Staff Weaver doesn't have the required leeway to do the kind of setup that makes staff a better weapon.

    You keep on tunnel visioning on staff since I used it in an example. I also used dagger and scepter in examples. Also I didn't see you address any of the 3rd weapon skills I mentioned, you only talked about staff dual skills lol. The discussion isn't about dual skills.

    However, the point I'm illustrating is that the dual skill is, in most cases, hands down doing more for the player than the normal third skill.

    Strawman. I did not draw any comparisons, you did. All I said is that having access to the 3rd skill would be a good thing.

    The problem with that is one of two things would happen, either the window to use that third skill would be very brief or the cooldown would be longer.

    Strawman. My suggestion does not include either one of these, they are not necessary for balance and you assuming they are is false.

    You're creating a clunky mechanic that would not be faster than double attuning.

    This tells me you do not understand my proposition. Maybe its based off of the previous strawman and is meant to be a quick summary dismissal.

    @lLobo.7960 said:
    The OP cant pvp with the spec and weapon he choose because people focus him down, he then, wants the spec to be changed to suit him instead of using the multitude of tools available for him to adapt to his problems. He won't accept any reasoning. Just let it die.

    I talked about why the 3rd skill is good to have across 3 weapons, yet you focus on staff since I used it once in an example. Seems convenient. Which tools would those be? Weave self on a 90sec cd that still has a 2sec delay between attunement swapping? Or unravel that is a waste of a utility slot when there are far more important tools to take? Also unravels cd makes it useless.

    @Stallic.2397 said:
    Double attuning takes 4 sec? If i'm in water and I want magnetic aura, I first have to attune to earth (4 sec) then double attune (another 4 sec) and by that time, in sPvp, you're dead.

    It also means the ele is stuck spamming its infamously bad aa's lol.

  • CursedSaviour.6357CursedSaviour.6357 Member
    edited December 13, 2018

    @lLobo.7960 said:
    Staff weaver is only good in PvP if you team is good enough to keep people out of you, or if the other team is bad enough that they don't bother chasing you.
    Meanwhile the dual skills are what makes staff weaver great in PvE and WvW as you have extra long lasting fields in your hands to compound even more damage and effects into your rotation.

    Lmao what alternate reality do you live in where staff weaver is being played? Tell me so I can go there

  • steki.1478steki.1478 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @CursedSaviour.6357 said:

    @lLobo.7960 said:
    Staff weaver is only good in PvP if you team is good enough to keep people out of you, or if the other team is bad enough that they don't bother chasing you.
    Meanwhile the dual skills are what makes staff weaver great in PvE and WvW as you have extra long lasting fields in your hands to compound even more damage and effects into your rotation.

    Lmao what alternate reality do you live in where staff weaver is being played? Tell me so I can go there

    It's strong in wvw and in pve when you're lacking ranged clear. Not sure why someone would play it in pvp unless it's for memes.

    Deso's favorite FROG
    Master of afk and kiting
    The God of Pips and Gud Deeps
    Froggo himself

  • Dace.8173Dace.8173 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ganathar.4956 said:

    @Dace.8173 said:

    @Ganathar.4956 said:
    It's arguable that the entire ele class is underperforming in competetive modes. Weaver is just the best option for a generally uncompetetive profession. This means that it's not weaver that is the problem. The main problems of ele come from core ele and to a lesser extent from tempest.

    I don't see Tempest as a problem. Its issues wouldn't really impact Weaver since the two can't mix and mingle. All things considered, if Elementalist (and by extension Weaver and Tempest) had stronger attacks it would be doing better in competitive modes. Weaver has plenty of sustain, evade, and healing. I often find that I'm hard to kill but likewise I just don't bring the thunder. I find myself in a lot of situations where I'm dancing around someone and they aren't able to kill me until a +1 shows up. If Weaver (in particular sword Weaver) could deliver some solid blows it would be an amazing duelist. The best I can hope for in many instances is to delay a cap or tie up one or more opposing players as they try to kill me, which in turn gives my team the chance to cap other points while the opposing team is undermanned.

    I probably didn't phrase it very well, but I was arguing that tempest has more problems as an elite spec than weaver since it's less competetive in every single game mode. Weaver is the best spec that ele has, so clearly the mechanic is not that bad. It's mostly the rest of the profession that is underwhelming.

    Oh, ok. Yeah, I agree with that. I find Tempest to be an interesting concept and it is fun to play at times but I do hate the fact that it isn't nearly as competitive as it needs to be. General improvements to Elementalist would go a long way.

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    stuff I mostly didn't read.

    Wow, that is exceedingly nitpicky. Going sentence by sentence. I'm not even going to bother reading most of that and will respond to the one point that did catch my eye.

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    Good players are typically two to three moves ahead of everyone else and are always engaged in setups for big payoffs. Top Weaver players do fine on offense and defense without having easy access to them.

    Oh yeah lol? So there are weavers out there that can think 4 seconds ahead and use scepter air 3 to blind a big hitting skill? They are able to maintain that godlike omnipresence throughout a 1v1 or teamfight? Amazing. I suppose since there are lots of these godlike players out there that I should forget about this QoL change that would improve gameplay for the rest of us mortals. Which top weavers would these be, and do they use anything else but sword? Also would these top weavers be against my idea or are you claiming to speak for them?

    Well, I did qualify my statement with good players. I get how this is a foreign concept for some but good players in competive modes are always antipcating the next attack and preparing for it so they can interupt, dodge, counter, or otherwise stop or mitigate. If you are merely responding to the actions of your oppenent as opposed to predicting what is likely next you aren't going to be that good. Knowing what power is likely next from that Spellbreaker will tell you all you need to know about which attunment you should be in. Waiting for the Ranger to start firing off attacks is a good way of finding yourself hit by Point Blank Shot. Waiting until you see the attack animations is a good way of not having your dodges, evades, and counters ready when you need them. Merely responding to whats going on around you prevents you from doing the setup needed to pull off some of your stronger attacks (this is one of the reasons you are having trouble with staff Weaver btw). This isn't being god like it's about knowing the other professions and what they are capable of and what their standard rotations are. Anyone who knows how other professions/Elites works are fully capable of being 4 seconds ahead of their oppenent. If you really think that this is a god like level of omnipotence then that likely explains why you have problems with getting access to the skills you want while playing Weaver.

    You'll suck as a Revenant player if you are simply responding to the other guy because Revenant requires set up to work best. Since you have to Legend swap and sometimes weapon swap you have to be thinking three to four steps ahead, otherwise you're dead. If I'm in Shiro making use of his stronger mobility and offensiveness then I need to anticpate that Legend swap into Glint and which upkeeps I need to activate. If you think to yourself that you need to use Infuse Light to survive a series of attacks as those attacks start happening then you aren't going to live long enough to swap to Glint, activate Facet of Light and then pop Infuse Light in order to soak up that damage as health. Flip side, if I'm in Glint and I need Riposting Shadows and I'm not anticpating that need then by the time I switch from Glint to Shiro I've likely already been hit with whatever I was wanting to dodge. You simply have to be several moves ahead or you'll fail. While thinking two to three steps ahead is good in a general sense for any profession/Elite in the game, Weaver (and also Elementalist and Tempest) performs better when you are engaged in play at that level. If you wait until the exact moment you are about to die to use Riptide then you are dead. If you antipcate that you are likely going to need to dodge and evade though you can be in Water attunement before you start taking those hits and evade the attack entirely.

    Everyone should be striving to get their level of play up to the point where you are spending less time responding and more time accuratly predicting and anticpating whats coming up next.

    Though your suggestion isn't a QoL change nor does it improve gameplay.

    At any rate, this is less a debate and more a sentance by sentance nitpick. So I won't be reading whatever silly line by line break down you want to engage in in response to this post. So say whatever you feel you think is important but know that I won't be reading it.

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 14, 2018

    @Dace.8173 said:
    snips

    You make a good point about having to think ahead, to be honest its not something I do a whole lot lol. For example tho, and this is the last one I swear, say I did think ahead, to get to the 3rd skill I'd have to spend 8 second in one attunement. That's a bit ridiculous. Its also impossible to do that continually if you need access to more then one 3rd skill. I don't see whats wrong about making weaver a bit more user friendly. I wouldn't have been so nitpicky if you didn't make so many false claims.

    Alright dood peace.

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I'd like to see the water field from steam surge to last a little longer for combos with yourself and other classes.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Steam_Surge

    Scepter kinda sucks though, would like to see some more cripple on the earth combos and maybe a some other control effects on it but I personally think scepter has been long over due a rework where ANet figure out what it's supposed to be. I'd kind of like some kind of single target medium range damage.

  • Fix: Log in to your weaver
    Practice every combination of elements.
    Ask yourself at each combination "What skills do I have access to in one switch from here?"
    When you ask that question don't forget that you can double attune.
    Problem solved.

    You've got some good points, but the weaver's rotations are pretty much just about practice.

    If you can't access a skill within one switch, you need to know that before you switch into the combo that you are taking a risk and/or going to do less damage while you're in that combo. Saying "I wish I could access double earth from Fire1/Earth2" isn't going to help you. You made the choice to attune fire after earth, just as you COULD have made the choice to attune earth after earth.

    Once you've done this, you have achieved playable competency with weaver element rotations. NOW you can go play whatever game mode you're in.

    Weaver certainly isn't as obviously straightforeward as Tempest or Core ele, but it IS by far the most interesting of the PoF elites, and QUITE powerful when you've gotten a good grasp of the elemental flows. If you want simpler rotations, just play core or tempest. Both are quite good.

    I actually like the idea of Unravel, but other utility skills mostly outshine it. I've already got a 4-second weapon swap, so even with boons, getting another on 25s cd doesn't really compete with things like, having a teleport, extra dodges, etc. I suppose I could ACTUALLY try equipping it ever, but my gut says its not as good as the other things we have access to.

  • @Gatvin.6510 said:
    Fix: Log in to your weaver
    Practice every combination of elements.
    Ask yourself at each combination "What skills do I have access to in one switch from here?"
    When you ask that question don't forget that you can double attune.
    Problem solved.

    You've got some good points, but the weaver's rotations are pretty much just about practice.

    If you can't access a skill within one switch, you need to know that before you switch into the combo that you are taking a risk and/or going to do less damage while you're in that combo. Saying "I wish I could access double earth from Fire1/Earth2" isn't going to help you. You made the choice to attune fire after earth, just as you COULD have made the choice to attune earth after earth.

    Once you've done this, you have achieved playable competency with weaver element rotations. NOW you can go play whatever game mode you're in.

    Weaver certainly isn't as obviously straightforeward as Tempest or Core ele, but it IS by far the most interesting of the PoF elites, and QUITE powerful when you've gotten a good grasp of the elemental flows. If you want simpler rotations, just play core or tempest. Both are quite good.

    I actually like the idea of Unravel, but other utility skills mostly outshine it. I've already got a 4-second weapon swap, so even with boons, getting another on 25s cd doesn't really compete with things like, having a teleport, extra dodges, etc. I suppose I could ACTUALLY try equipping it ever, but my gut says its not as good as the other things we have access to.

    I feel like a broken record here. Double attuning isn't worth the cost of 8 seconds of horrible auto attacks for one skill. In a team fight its impossible to know what you will need 4 seconds in the future, or even in a 1v1 if the player is good. If you can somehow manage this I would love to see it.

  • As far as I can tell, Weaver was built primarily with sword in mind, and the other dual skills are sort of an afterthought. Sword has defensive skills on demand in the 2 slos: for evasion you have Riptide in water and Earthen Vortex in Earth, for mobility you have Polaric Leap in Air and Flame Uprising in Fire. The third skill in each is also a flat DPS skill, meaning you lose very little for not double-attuning. This gives Sword/X defense and mobility on demand with little cooldown and little tradeoff.

    This is different from the rest of the Elementalist's weapons. For every other weapon, the defensive and utility skills are in the 3, 4, and 5 slots. This locks the weaver out of these skills for 4 seconds, which usually spells doom. If you're constantly sifting through elements, you may have some defensive skills on command, hopefully the one you need for the situation. The 3 skills are particularly hard, requiring 8 seconds to acquire. This makes it nigh impossible to access Magnetic Aura, Dust Devil, Blinding Flash, Burning Speed, Gust, and Shocking Aura, previous mainstays of the Ele arsenal.

    For PVE purposes, I just quit trying with Staff Weaver. The rotation is convoluted, hard to adjust to changing situations, easy to mess up, has terrible cc, has no toolbox from which to draw from, and no defenses if something goes wrong. Those problems just go away when playing with Sword/X.

    I don't think this issue will ever really be fixed. There's no way Anet is going to reorder skills just to accommodate weaver, and Unravel is not an adequate solution.

    "Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The problem with weaver is the same with core ele and to a point tempest it dose not use magic as an type of attk its all physical dmg with an magic animations. So all the looks of a mages and the flaws of a mages but with the benefits of using magic. GW2 has no real magic other then that of animation.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

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