A fundamental problem with weaver.

Its the dual skills. They replace your 3rd weapon skill, and since no one ever double attunes (or if you do need to you gotta wait 4 whole seconds) that 3rd skill is essentially gone. Its a huge clunky detriment. When I'm playing staff weaver in pvp (I don't anymore for this reason) when I switch to earth I need magnetic aura immediately, or if water then I need geyser immediately. Its bad enough not having the 4th and 5th skills.

EditRemoved idea, want to create discussion about solutions rather then argue over mine.

Staff weaver is only good in PvP if you team is good enough to keep people out of you, or if the other team is bad enough that they don't bother chasing you.Meanwhile the dual skills are what makes staff weaver great in PvE and WvW as you have extra long lasting fields in your hands to compound even more damage and effects into your rotation.

Anet: we gave you unravel for this kind of situation.Eles: seriously

@MyPuppy.8970 said:Anet: we gave you unravel for this kind of situation.Eles: seriously

Didn’t you once suggest unravel to be an F5 skill to help us in such situations?

To be honest, needing skill 3 immediately would be the first reason why you shouldn't play weaver on staff. It's more of a damage and control build. If you need sustain just play core ele.

Most Weavers I see in PvP or WvW make use of the dual skill. Granted, I rarely, almost never, see staff Weaver in PvP.

I mean you stayed away from Staff Weaver in PvP for a good reason then - Staff Weaver is about maximizing control and damage and almost never about support or self sustain. What makes you still want to take Weaver in PvP?

@Phoenix the One.4071 said:

@MyPuppy.8970 said:Anet: we gave you unravel for this kind of situation.Eles: seriously

Lol, he said he didn't like unravel. But I did suggest that...Unravel works for every ele weapon except sword, because sword was built with weaver in mind. Since most sPvp Ele's play with sword, it was initially turned down. Seeing these threads pop up now is just hilarious.

Honestly, unravel should have always been an F5 and the mechanic of weaver should have been a continued bonus as you keep weaving. Something like kalla's fervor with Renegade's. The more you weave between elements, without using unravel, the higher percentage your damage goes up. Max 7% just for example. When you use unravel, you lose the bonus and have to start over again.

@Stallic.2397 said:

@Phoenix the One.4071 said:

@MyPuppy.8970 said:Anet: we gave you unravel for this kind of situation.Eles: seriously

Ohh sorry xD didn’t mean to give credit to another person :)

I think most of you are missing the point. The point is to make skill 3 available to all weapons, or even 4 and 5 as well like I mentioned in the 2nd paragraph. Staff was just an example. Weaver, with whatever weapon, will always be held back by this fundamental detriment.

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:I think most of you are missing the point. The point is to make skill 3 available to all weapons, or even 4 and 5 as well like I mentioned in the 2nd paragraph. Staff was just an example. Weaver, with whatever weapon, will always be held back by this fundamental detriment.

No, you are missing the point.Weaver is only held back by its inability to predict the flow of battle and prepare accordingly.If you need magnetic aura and you are in fire attunement, you reacted to slow. Should be already in earth attunement before you need the aura. If you cant react fast enough with staff, use a weapon that gives you defensive skills in the slots 2, 4, 5, and then improve your skills.Staff weaver is only good in spvp if your team is great or your opponents oblivious.

@Phoenix the One.4071 said:

@MyPuppy.8970 said:Anet: we gave you unravel for this kind of situation.Eles: seriously

Nah never in my whole life. But I did suggest to remove it and replace it with something worth slotting.

@lLobo.7960 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:I think most of you are missing the point. The point is to make skill 3 available to all weapons, or even 4 and 5 as well like I mentioned in the 2nd paragraph. Staff was just an example. Weaver, with whatever weapon, will always be held back by this fundamental detriment.

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@lLobo.7960 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:I think most of you are missing the point. The point is to make skill 3 available to all weapons, or even 4 and 5 as well like I mentioned in the 2nd paragraph. Staff was just an example. Weaver, with whatever weapon, will always be held back by this fundamental detriment.

I honestly thought he was being sarcastic, lol. Dagger has an aura on air 3, so what does that mean? Anticipate 8 seconds earlier and double attune to get it? Pretty ridiculous. That applies to any third skill worth having.

Using your duel skill, then gaining access to your third skill isn't a bad idea. As long as duel skills always gain access priority. If weaver's don't like it, they're not obliged to use their third skill.

I love the gameplay of Weaver, it helps to swap every 4sec and chain skills; and it needs too because of long CD and poor dmg skills; byt I don't want they change that.I don't care about unravel or #3 #4 #5, yes it needs healing power and arcane to sustain until these skills (Schoking aura, water skills #4 #5 to heal and cleanse etc) but it's not the fault of the gameplay, attunements or weapons skills; the issue here is the e-spec which doesn't give proper traits or utility skills to sustain a MELEE spec and weapon, and core elem in general.

Yes it could be interesting if you hit with your dual attack you earn the "core" #3 skill. But already they need to fix sword's dual attacks : poor range and radius or too long cast, poor target tracking.

Even if someone were determined enough to get at the 3rd skill, it is practically impossible to do in any pvp setting. First you attune to the element in question, wait 4 seconds, and then you can use it. Then you gotta wait 4 more seconds to get out of the attunement. That is 8 whole freaking seconds! How on earth can anyone be ok with this?! You will get auto attacked to death before you can get out of said attunement. Its madness. Madness I say!

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:Even if someone were determined enough to get at the 3rd skill, it is practically impossible to do in any pvp setting. First you attune to the element in question, wait 4 seconds, and then you can use it. Then you gotta wait 4 more seconds to get out of the attunement. That is 8 whole freaking seconds! How on earth can anyone be ok with this?! You will get auto attacked to death before you can get out of said attunement. Its madness. Madness I say!

And you lose 3 skills when single attuning too. As soon as you single attune, your #2 skill stays the same. When you get out of it, your #4 and #5 stay the same. There is no reason to do it. It's a trap.

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:Even if someone were determined enough to get at the 3rd skill, it is practically impossible to do in any pvp setting. First you attune to the element in question, wait 4 seconds, and then you can use it. Then you gotta wait 4 more seconds to get out of the attunement. That is 8 whole freaking seconds! How on earth can anyone be ok with this?! You will get auto attacked to death before you can get out of said attunement. Its madness. Madness I say!

Well that's partly bc Weaver's design unfortunately doesn't work well with Staff and Dagger - probably an oversight from the developers, but also a reason why you should probably stay away from Staff Weaver in PvP. I've seen many core/tempest staff Ele in PvP but never Staff Weaver.

I'd welcome a buff to Unravel with more interesting boons or bonuses, or a change to make Unravel an F5 - meaning making it an option that the Ele can use, instead of forcing the order of the 3rd skill and the dual skill, since there can be situations when I need the 3rd skill more while there can be times I need the dual skill more.

Also I believe you're just arguing the disadvantages of Staff Weaver in PvP right? Otherwise you can pick Core Ele or Tempest, both work much better with Staff and I've seen quite a few of them in PvP.

@idolin.2831 said:Also I believe you're just arguing the disadvantages of Staff Weaver in PvP right? Otherwise you can pick Core Ele or Tempest, both work much better with Staff and I've seen quite a few of them in PvP.

Are you messin with me? I said twice that I'm referring to weaver in general and not staff. It doesn't matter which weapon it is, the 3rd skill on all attunements is essentially gone and this is not ok, at least not with me cant speak for alla yall. Having to choose a different spec cuz something is broken or not working right is a sign that something is wrong and needs to be fixed. I think unravel is trying to address this issue but falls short.

When I roam on sword/dagger weaver, most of the time I don't require those skills because I need to stay alive/sustain/evade but occasionally when I'm acting more offensively I'll fully attune fire or air as both attunements have an awesome high damage skill #3 that rewards the weaver (it is a sword skill) for fully attuning. It's usage is niche, and it fits elementalist perfectly, since elementalist is and has always been punishing/rewarding to the in/competent. There are extra skills available for those who opportunities to use them, and it's really cool that anet gave us SO many skills with this specialization to use at different times.

So .... look, I hear your complaint and it's understandable, but dual skills are often a lot more useful and fill in a lot of DPS gaps that previous ele builds had, and magnetic aura --- It's a useful skill but it's gone in half a second and you could've just used another skill to put pressure on the enemy, or use a mobility skill to get away, position yourself behind something in the environment etc .... ele is about being clever and managing your cooldowns.

All due respect, I don't think you've really taken the time to experience weaver. It sounds like you tried to play a sub-optimal build in pvp and then came here to denounce the entire specialization. I don't know if you play WvW at all, and not everyone would agree with me on this, but that's ok -- they're probably rev mains ;) weaver is top dog for DPS in WvW if you know how to play it right. You can literally win fights for small groups of 20 people just by managing your bombs/cooldowns and placing them effectively/quickly, with a little bit of luck perhaps, but it happens a lot. I've seen it from the other side as well - seen a quarter of our squad go down to a meteor/lava font/pyroclastic blast/arcane wave bomb all timed extremely well, and then watched the rest of squad break immediately after to the rest of their zerg.

Weaver is a zerg breaker, if you have the aptitude for it. If you want a pvp weaver, play marshals fire322/water131/weaver322 sword/dagger with durability runes and sigil of strength on one weapon, just be aware that for most, the learning curve is as steep as it is rewarding.

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@idolin.2831 said:Also I believe you're just arguing the disadvantages of Staff Weaver in PvP right? Otherwise you can pick Core Ele or Tempest, both work much better with Staff and I've seen quite a few of them in PvP.

Ah I got it - my apologies. I agree that the problem exists on all MH weapons except for Sword since it's designed to work with Weaver, the 3rd skills on Sword except for the Air one are pretty much useless anyway. What about a version of Unravel that has slightly shorter CD, and provide more useful boons (like stability, resistance, quickness)? Although then I'd waste a utility slot - I'd much prefer Unravel be made a F5.

@Stallic.2397 said:

@Phoenix the One.4071 said:

@MyPuppy.8970 said:Anet: we gave you unravel for this kind of situation.Eles: seriously

mmmmm, no. That would amplify Elementalist (and by extension Weaver) issues. Your suggestion increases risk, which in turn increases difficulty, which in turns demands a bigger payoff for the player. The moment even a slight nerf is needed you've lowered the reward without reducing the risk or skill level requirment. That's one of the issues Elementalist faces right now, high skill level but low reward (for many). There are some people who might enjoy that extra level of difficulty in play but not enough to justify an Elite.

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@lLobo.7960 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:I think most of you are missing the point. The point is to make skill 3 available to all weapons, or even 4 and 5 as well like I mentioned in the 2nd paragraph. Staff was just an example. Weaver, with whatever weapon, will always be held back by this fundamental detriment.

Revenant. That is the entire playstyle of Revenant. If you aren't 3 to 4 steps ahead of everyone else in the match you're not going to have the Energy you need to pull off your moves. Or you won't be in the correct Legend in order to respond to the current needs. You basically have to know you're going to need that dodge well before the actual need arises or you find yourself with not enough Energy for a dodge or not enough Energy for that burst when the window opens. If you don't read the match well and you go all in on an attack you may find yourself with no defenses. If you go all in on defense and you're not reading the match well then you may lose a window of opportunity against the other team. Regardless, Revenant requires you to know what you will need well before you need it.

For example, if I'm playing Power Herald and I need Glints massive heal then I need to be in Glint well before that need arises because it takes far too long to switch Legends, activate Facet of Light and then consume Infuse Light. By the time I've done all of that, I'm dead. So I have to know in advance that I need to be in Glint and that I need to be using Facet of Light so that I can consume Infuse Light. However, if I'm in Glint then I'm also forgoing the offensive strength that Shiro provides. At any point in the process of playing Revenant if I'm not thinking I need something before I need it then typically I missed my small window to use an ability.

Also, what's this business about no one using the dual skill? I see it all the time.

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:Even if someone were determined enough to get at the 3rd skill, it is practically impossible to do in any pvp setting. First you attune to the element in question, wait 4 seconds, and then you can use it. Then you gotta wait 4 more seconds to get out of the attunement. That is 8 whole freaking seconds! How on earth can anyone be ok with this?! You will get auto attacked to death before you can get out of said attunement. Its madness. Madness I say!

Because that's the playstyle of Weaver and when you play one you sign up for that. If you want that #3 skill you have Core and Tempest to play. Weaver is meant for other people who want that extra challenge. When you play Weaver you are pretty much forgoing your standard #3 skill. Just like when you play Dragonhunter and Firebrand you forgo the standard Virtues and when you play Scourge you forgo the standard Shroud. These are all things that a player knows up front and is agreeing to when they opt to play that Elite.

If it's not for you that's cool but just because it's not for you doesn't mean it isn't for other people or that Weaver is flawed. It's not. At least not in the fashion you are indicating.

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@idolin.2831 said:Also I believe you're just arguing the disadvantages of Staff Weaver in PvP right? Otherwise you can pick Core Ele or Tempest, both work much better with Staff and I've seen quite a few of them in PvP.

It actually is ok. That's the design. That's the appeal. You've yet to list a solid reason why it is important for Weaver to work like Core and Tempest instead of introducing a unique and different style of play. That's kinda the point of Elites, to experiment with professions and alter the way they are played. You haven't established that it is broken or needs to be fixed. Just that you don't like it.

There is a world of difference between broken and something you don't particularly like. So far all I see is something you don't like. Tempest and Core seem to be more in line with what you want. But Weaver's dual skill is actually fine. It faces a few problems, this isn't one of them.

@Dace.8173 said:mmmmm, no. That would amplify Elementalist (and by extension Weaver) issues. Your suggestion increases risk, which in turn increases difficulty, which in turns demands a bigger payoff for the player. The moment even a slight nerf is needed you've lowered the reward without reducing the risk or skill level requirment. That's one of the issues Elementalist faces right now, high skill level but low reward (for many). There are some people who might enjoy that extra level of difficulty in play but not enough to justify an Elite.

Revenant. That is the entire playstyle of Revenant. If you aren't 3 to 4 steps ahead of everyone else in the match you're not going to have the Energy you need to pull off your moves. Or you won't be in the correct Legend in order to respond to the current needs. You basically have to know you're going to need that dodge well before the actual need arises or you find yourself with not enough Energy for a dodge or not enough Energy for that burst when the window opens. If you don't read the match well and you go all in on an attack you may find yourself with no defenses. If you go all in on defense and you're not reading the match well then you may lose a window of opportunity against the other team. Regardless, Revenant requires you to know what you will need well before you need it.

For example, if I'm playing Power Herald and I need Glints massive heal then I need to be in Glint well before that need arises because it takes far too long to switch Legends, activate Facet of Light and then consume Infuse Light. By the time I've done all of that, I'm dead. So I have to know in advance that I need to be in Glint and that I need to be using Facet of Light so that I can consume Infuse Light. However, if I'm in Glint then I'm also forgoing the offensive strength that Shiro provides. At any point in the process of playing Revenant if I'm not thinking I need something before I need it then typically I missed my small window to use an ability.

Because that's the playstyle of Weaver and when you play one you sign up for that. If you want that #3 skill you have Core and Tempest to play. Weaver is meant for other people who want that extra challenge. When you play Weaver you are pretty much forgoing your standard #3 skill. Just like when you play Dragonhunter and Firebrand you forgo the standard Virtues and when you play Scourge you forgo the standard Shroud. These are all things that a player knows up front and is agreeing to when they opt to play that Elite.

If it's not for you that's cool but just because it's not for you doesn't mean it isn't for other people or that Weaver is flawed. It's not. At least not in the fashion you are indicating.

It actually is ok. That's the design. That's the appeal. You've yet to list a solid reason why it is important for Weaver to work like Core and Tempest instead of introducing a unique and different style of play. That's kinda the point of Elites, to experiment with professions and alter the way they are played. You haven't established that it is broken or needs to be fixed. Just that you don't like it.

There is a world of difference between broken and something you don't particularly like. So far all I see is something you don't like. Tempest and Core seem to be more in line with what you want. But Weaver's dual skill is actually fine. It faces a few problems, this isn't one of them.

You dismiss my idea because it'll make elementalist too complicated, but then you immediately go into a rant of why 3rd skills aren't needed for weaver because it's a complicated elite profession.

Then you compare eles to Revanants, even though the two are completely different. Switching legends and weapons is part of their rotation. Double attuning is not the same, in fact it messes up the rotation of weaver just for one skill.

I honestly don't know if this is trolling, or that you forgot the number of points you were trying say, which go against each other and make no sense.

The whole point is that 3rd skills are needed for the weapon being used. For example, the magnetic aura on staff or air aura on dagger. There isn't a duel skill that replaces them. Yet, the weapons haven't changed and those 3rd skills are still needed!

@"SoulSlavocracy.4902" said:occasionally when I'm acting more offensively I'll fully attune fire or air as both attunements have an awesome high damage skill #3 that rewards the weaver (it is a sword skill) for fully attuning. It's usage is niche

could've just used another skill to put pressure on the enemy, or use a mobility skill to get away, position yourself behind something in the environment etc .... ele is about being clever and managing your cooldowns.

All due respect, I don't think you've really taken the time to experience weaver. It sounds like you tried to play a sub-optimal build in pvp and then came here to denounce the entire specialization. I don't know if you play WvW at all

If you could use these high damage skills more often then wouldn't that be better? Would it still be niche?

Dual skills are great but that's no reason to not have access to a bunch of often times necessary skills. For example air 3 on scepter, that blind is awesome in shutting big skills down; or fire 3 on dagger, that skill is a big part of damage and the evade is very useful. There are plenty of times mobility, positioning, and cd management is not an option or the other player is just as clever.

I've played mostly staff, some sword, didn't bother with scepter or dagger for weaver. It doesn't matter though, that's not going to prove that I'm somehow wrong when the fact is that the 3rd weapon skill is gone. Most of them have a use and that use can often times save the ele. I've played plenty of staff weaver in wvw. I don't see what that has to do with this, unless youre saying that because the best weapon for weaver is sword in pvp then play staff/scepter/dagger elsewhere which is ridiculous.

@idolin.2831 said:Ah I got it - my apologies. I agree that the problem exists on all MH weapons except for Sword since it's designed to work with Weaver, the 3rd skills on Sword except for the Air one are pretty much useless anyway. What about a version of Unravel that has slightly shorter CD, and provide more useful boons (like stability, resistance, quickness)? Although then I'd waste a utility slot - I'd much prefer Unravel be made a F5.

No problem man. I think that version of Unravel would be cool and better then what we have now, but if it were a utility slot or even an f5 its still a band aid solution. Its a mechanic on top of a mechanic which is unnecessary when the first mechanic could be reworked.

@Dace.8173 said:Revenant. That is the entire playstyle of Revenant. If you aren't 3 to 4 steps ahead of everyone else in the match you're not going to have the Energy you need to pull off your moves. Or you won't be in the correct Legend in order to respond to the current needs.

Also, what's this business about no one using the dual skill? I see it all the time.

If you want that #3 skill you have Core and Tempest to play. Just like when you play Dragonhunter and Firebrand you forgo the standard Virtues and when you play Scourge you forgo the standard Shroud.

You've yet to list a solid reason why it is important for Weaver to work like Core and Tempest instead of introducing a unique and different style of play.

I can sort of agree with the rev comparison, I haven't played a ton of rev but enough to get what you're describing. Energy and legend management will certainly make the player play a bit smarter and not spam stuff, sure. It comes down to rev having the tools to deal with most situations and ele not. There is a reason why the best weapon for weaver is sword. While good players can certainly pull off using the other weapons, that doesn't mean that somehow because this player can pull it off that its ok to be denied crucial skills.

I meant the 3rd base skill not the dual skill.

So what I'm hearing is that because 3 out of the 4 weapons aren't very good for weaver, play another spec. Sounds like something is wrong here. Except those other especs work for the other professions because they introduce new mechanics that work instead of replacing ones with something that doesn't.

I have but you have either not read them or conveniently overlooked them. Please read above in this quote, or create some scenarios by yourself. Weaver can have all the uniqueness it wants. My proposed change will not affect this, at least the change only to how the dual and 3rd weapon skill interact. The other one about always fully attuning would and I agree that would probably be too far.

It's just never been a problem for me or any of my multiple ele main buddies who play both pvp and wvw. It's a valid complaint IN A SENSE but it feels like you're exaggerating because you didn't get what you wanted, where-as the rest of us are mostly pretty well satisfied with what weaver brought. I know someone else has already said this but ... just play tempest ... you can't expect every spec to do absolutely everything. And you can nitpick my arguments to death as much as you want, I could easily nitpick and refute my own arguments here, the point isn't that what I'm saying is infallible - the point is that what you're suggesting seems somewhat unreasonable. And I know you'll have something to say about that too - fine, I've spoken to plenty of people with disagreeable temperaments in my life. Maybe it will take time to convince you otherwise because words probably will not, again no disrespect intended, just being honest.