Tips to fight against overwhelmingly strong guilds? — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Tips to fight against overwhelmingly strong guilds?

EremiteAngel.9765EremiteAngel.9765 Member ✭✭✭

There are pug zergs.
And then there are average guild groups.
And then there are skilled guild groups.
And then there are extremely skilled guild groups.

Naming a few extremely skilled guild groups currently active, in no particular order, that are tough to kill and relentless when they push (subjective according to what I've experienced, and not all-inclusive), we have guilds like:

  • Violent Resolution (VR)
  • Tempest Wolves (TW)
  • The Black Tides (TBT)
  • Giam Chye Cha Loti (AHMA)
  • Contrast (CRT)
  • Etc.

So my question is...apart from 'get good' or 'git gud' which will take time for all the other guilds to progress to that 'extremely skilled' stage, what are the tips to take on these guilds?
Tips in the form of group composition, rotation, build, engagement strategies etc.
Should we bomb them from range? Charge into them? Pick on their stragglers?
What should less skilled groups do to stand a better chance against them? What are they weak against? What would break them or force them to retreat?

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Comments

  • Junkpile.7439Junkpile.7439 Member ✭✭✭

    One good tactic is make big swords, wait until enemy come defend and teleport in spawn.

    Low quality trolling since launch
    Seafarer's Rest EotM Hero

  • steki.1478steki.1478 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Junkpile.7439 said:
    One good tactic is make big swords, wait until enemy come defend and teleport in spawn.

    There's nothing good about that...

    You can do this two ways:

    • Cloud around them with ranged builds (rangers, deadeyes, hammer revs, gs mesmers) and poke from all sides. However, the chances are they will just ignore you, insta rez everyone who gets caught and just avoid running into you. You're also pretty useless if they decide to attack you inside objectives or in any choke point.
    • Get much bigger group. You'll have to be really bad to wipe with 40+ against 20. Take as many aoe classes as possible, preferably scourges and heralds. Lots of CC helps too, so ele, spellbreaker and chrono should always be a part of your group. Basically a regular meta squad.

    If they are tough to kill it just means that you provide no pressure. It's quite easy to overheal a group as a full healer (scrapper and tempest for example) when you take low pressure.

  • Junkpile.7439Junkpile.7439 Member ✭✭✭

    It's fun when they run defend and won't get any kills. :D

    Low quality trolling since launch
    Seafarer's Rest EotM Hero

  • steki.1478steki.1478 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Junkpile.7439 said:
    It's fun when they run defend and won't get any kills. :D

    Fun laughing at your own, garbage server. Noted. No wonder why game mode is practically dead outside of few matchups.

  • SkyShroud.2865SkyShroud.2865 Member ✭✭✭✭

    There are two ways to build a strong guild.
    1. Stack good players, reject bad players. Sound elitist? Sound non-contributive? That's how it is. The only difficulty in this method is the initial stage of getting a group of good players to join you. It isn't hard to overcome this difficulty if you have played for awhile and you know people, and people know you.
    2. Train players. This method doesn't give you absolute result and furthermore, it takes 6 months to a year. Let's be real here. Most guilds don't do this, otherwise they won't be stacking. They don't have good enough commanders to train people either.

    To kill good guilds.
    1. You can overwhelm them with numbers but let's be real here. They won't be fighting overwhelming numbers.
    2. You can cloud them and let's be real here too. You too need decent players to cloud, you can't cloud with bunch of newbies, they don't know how, no matter how hard you try to convince yourself it is simple thing to do.

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  • Strider Pj.2193Strider Pj.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Junkpile.7439 said:
    It's fun when they run defend and won't get any kills. :D

    Ahahahhahah!!!

    People just don’t read your signature... don’t take any more breaks please.

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 4, 2018

    Really depends on the numbers we are talking about, yes.

    A <10 man guild can generally be clouded down by around the same numbers - especially if they are just meta scourges/fb/revs and lack good focus and the pugs have good roamers. Within these numbers even a single good player can make a huuuuuuge difference. Not to long ago we engaged an 8 or so man guild with just 6 pugs (4 there for the initial fight). It was a several minutes kiting slog until we got one of them down and... they all just melted and we could mop them up. Because the ones that werent initially in the fight arrived and one of them happened to be a full zerker reaper lol. TL;DR we won because they ran as a meta zergball like good little boys.

    When we go >25 however it all change, because they're so many you're gonna have a serious problem clouding them down. Plus with that many the problem is anything they target dies instantly, they dont need to chase people down like a smaller group. Unlike the smaller group they can easily hide their dps among the ranks. At that point you just need many more people (50%+) or an equally skilled guild group, ignoring obvious bad guilds where you can pug down a larger force. Much depends on who is commanding the squad - some dont actually care about the backline ("it's their own fault they had no fb and got pulled!") and those groups you can slowly, very slowly, wear down. Once they loose the dps, only the frontline remain and they can be kited with relative ease while ranged continue to pummel them. I have seen long guild fights basicly being 20% time spent killing the backline and 80% time spent just lobbing damage into a melee group that take no damage until they eventually fail their cooldowns and someone dies, in which case it's everyone pile on top just to kill him lol.

  • Hoon.1524Hoon.1524 Member ✭✭

    Just raid with 30+ like the top EU guilds do. They're so big, you barely notice the pugs and the gankers around them.

  • HazyDaisy.4107HazyDaisy.4107 Member ✭✭✭

    @steki.1478 said:

    @Junkpile.7439 said:
    It's fun when they run defend and won't get any kills. :D

    Fun laughing at your own, garbage server. Noted. No wonder why game mode is practically dead outside of few matchups.

    You can do this solo against some servers. Hell, if I want the outnumbered buff, all I usually need is 5 mins, I can't help how comical the predictability of some servers are.

    [HaHa] Hazardous Hallucination - Sorrows Furnace

  • SloRules.3560SloRules.3560 Member ✭✭✭

    @Hoon.1524 said:
    Just raid with 30+ like the top EU guilds do. They're so big, you barely notice the pugs and the gankers around them.

    What? Are you delusional? Which guild runs 30+????? Not to mention you said, top EU guilds? No top EU guild even has 30 active people in a guild....

  • zinkz.7045zinkz.7045 Member ✭✭✭

    Top guilds, 2018, LOL.


  • walk forward.

  • luzonophir.7134luzonophir.7134 Member ✭✭
    edited December 4, 2018

    stacking is so 2012. and if you're still stacking in 2018, that means you didn't and haven't discovered the hidden tactics in the span of 6 years.

  • Soxx.1264Soxx.1264 Member ✭✭

    Thinking any guild is good in 2018 :#

  • Wait, bag denying till they run proper numbers isnt meta? Nah, nothing much to do, git gud or wait for the next mmo. It was bad like that too in warhammer, youd get matched up in a scenario with pugs and the guild would show up. welp, nothing to do but leave scenario. To be fair, you can fight once or twice to be nice, give it your best, but after fighting guilds where theres a clear discrepancy in skill. I would rather go play something else. I kinda wished the maps could hold 150-200 one of server. Call me a moron, but i enjoyed DAOC's massive zerg fights and the little elite guilds picking off the edges rather than being the main force like this game.

  • Israel.7056Israel.7056 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Wrong forum for this discussion.

  • subversiontwo.7501subversiontwo.7501 Member ✭✭
    edited December 4, 2018

    @EremiteAngel.9765 said:
    So my question is...apart from 'get good' or 'git gud' which will take time for all the other guilds to progress to that 'extremely skilled' stage, what are the tips to take on these guilds?
    Tips in the form of group composition, rotation, build, engagement strategies etc.
    Should we bomb them from range? Charge into them? Pick on their stragglers?
    What should less skilled groups do to stand a better chance against them? What are they weak against? What would break them or force them to retreat?

    Look at their average numbers and build a group that is slightly larger. Not overwhelmingly so but 10-20% larger. Good guilds are confident to fight superior numbers up until certain breaking points. It also gives you some wiggle room to sustain longer against them and learn from that. They are still likely to beat you more often than not but you create a good learning environment where you don't get onepushed. Everybody benefits from that since you create content by being able to stand up to them to some degree while you learn.

    Look at their comps and try to build simple things that counter it. Comps usually have a balance and you can create simple counters by tilting one way or the other. Again, it gives you something to use and learn around one step at a time. It gives you a fighting chance but it is not a better comp in any way. You will not win most fights and you may end up weaker against other groups but it gives your group a purpose to practise around that will land you occassional wins against better groups.

    Fairly similar to 2, build a slightly cheesy and safe comp. As with the other comps it may not necessarily give you many wins but it will give you a fighting chance and a foundation to learn from. It gives you a chance of taking fights versus much better guilds and learning from those fights. The best way to "get good" is to fight "the good" and learn from the environment that creates. As you improve you build more risk into your comp and you will see drastic improvement in performance. There are too many guilds however who try to copy the comps and builds of good guilds without being able to handle them - those guilds rarely learn how to play those comps because they get flattened before they have time to learn from playing them.

    Those are the three things I could think of spontaneously.

    Get the right attitude, that is the most important. Content is about taking and giving, winning and losing. In order to win you have to prepare to lose and you have to try and try again. The reason few new groups come up to challenge older groups these days is that they do not try as much and the fewer groups who try the fewer other groups who are also in learning phases will there be to fight. That's one issue that stems from having a nice casual and social game, when people enter competetive (ish) game modes they are not used to losing and do not see the positives in it. That's why we have threads like the recent "why do you try when you can't beat me" thread. The answer is quite simple, trying means content, content means fun and challenging yourself to have fun is a good learning process to grow into more fun since the better you get the larger is your envelope with things you can do or take on.

  • Blocki.4931Blocki.4931 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @SloRules.3560 said:

    @Hoon.1524 said:
    Just raid with 30+ like the top EU guilds do. They're so big, you barely notice the pugs and the gankers around them.

    What? Are you delusional? Which guild runs 30+????? Not to mention you said, top EU guilds? No top EU guild even has 30 active people in a guild....

    We have 30 to 40 people in our guild runs.. but we're far from the top ;)

    Logging out forever.

  • like previous ppl have said, cloud formation or twice as big.

    if not and you are stuck with even or less then numbers, then your best bet is to lure them to a choke. you need heavy damage aoe classes and boonstrip. unfortunately you will need these ppl to be good and coordinate. good guild groups can survive 2 or 3 bombs, cuz 2 or three dodges. so you need at least 3 well coordinated bombs. optimal thing is 2 winds of disenchantment, 2 meteor shower, 2 herald 3 times in a row. gotta wait for them to regroup and hit them there, using the bombs too early will mean they are likely to evade them. too late same deal.

  • You dismiss git gud out of hand but that's really what it boils down to. All the suggestions given here, even the ones you mention yourself, are variants of that.

    I find it odd you think a pug group deserves to have a chance against a better organized group without doing the common sense things some of these guilds have been doing for years. A solid chunk of the WvW game is having the right comp and people who know how to use it to it's best advantage operating on voice coms. None of those are things your typical herd of pugs are going to posses. It's a minor miracle, or a really popular pin, if you can get more than 10 people in coms. Then you need a second miracle that they all listen to the commander, much less comping up.

    VR, because they are the ones I'm most familiar with, take a lot of heat sometimes for being elitist and playing the way they do. But only fools and noobs argue against proven results.

    I main and prefer to play on a class/build that isn't meta in WvW. Pretty much every current meta build is boring game play to me. But when one of my guilds, or a commander I care about, want to comp up – outside of some good natured griping – my next words are "what do we need?" not stubbornly sticking to a useless class/build.

    There's plenty of times where I just wanna play my main. But that's for roaming, or off nights, or after the raid.

    And unless you are a true new player with no friends or guild to help you, it's not that hard to put together a functional comp build. All the voice comm program clients are free downloads. Headphones are cheap and ubiquitous. you don't need a microphone to listen. The top tier stat options all have poor people versions.

  • getalifeturd.8139getalifeturd.8139 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 4, 2018

    Quit and uninstall the game and let the alliance system fail along with all the guilds that will stack it just like they did to servers. The only way to beat GW2 is to quit because you can't win at MMORPGs that by design never end.

  • @getalifeturd.8139 said:
    Quit and uninstall the game and let the alliance system fail along with all the guilds that will stack it just like they did to servers. The only way to beat GW2 is to quit because you can't win at MMORPGs that by design never end.

    Yea, can't win vs the Immortals.

    lel.

  • Voltekka.2375Voltekka.2375 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Switch server.

  • DeadlySynz.3471DeadlySynz.3471 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 4, 2018

    Ironically the guilds you listed aren't tough to kill at all but quite easy. Easily killed with a group half their size, even with a pug group, provided the pugs understand the group they're fighting against. One has to understand typically how the group operates you're fighting, but also understand your groups comp make-up. The problem also isn't with commanders or a group of pugs that refuse to stick to a commander (it won't matter anyway when the enemy is double your size), the problem is groups still tend to engage the typical way.. buff up and run in.

    This thread could easily go sideways into a match-up thread, but I'll give you a bunch of strategies that if you test them out against some of the groups you listed, you'll easily win, even with a pug group. Firstly there are some simple rules to go by: Necros are slow and easy to kill, as are meta backline revs; there is also no point in targeting or trying to kill a tanky front line, ever.

    1) One of the listed groups typically balls up and runs in a straight light from one point to another. Cloud around them and target their tail; also target their necros 1st, then revs second. A group of 5 beat their 25-30 doing this.

    2) One of the groups (depending on whose commanding) has their ranged or bombing classes typically swing to side just as their melee group engages. This group then bombs the main group on engaging. Cloud out and kill their bombing group; this can be done very easily, especially if a rev is carrying a banner. Also employ the same strategy as above, kill their slow tail. This commander will inevitably retreat back to SMC or a tower until the group is back. We had a group of 15 vs their 60 or so that out-killed them on each clash. Eventually they gave up and blobbed down towers. The other commander of this guild gets heavily irritated when their pugs die, and will often spend many minutes at spawn or their keep reading the riot act to them. So simple strategy, target enemies not in their guild and kill them. When they go absent, go take SMC or one of their T3 towers, as this seems to create some mass disorganization with them.

    3) Look for the 1 enemy that routinely jumps so much they'd make a rabbit envious.. this is their commander. Exclusively target them, when they go down, the group will disperse. I used to run with this group and it was quite annoying when this happened. The group would quit on the spot once the commander was dead.

    4) Another group, their commander is quite good, but the players that run with them aren't. Follow the basic rules, cloud around, attack necros 1st, and rev's second. Once they lose their damage, they disperse.

    You'll often notice that large guilds typically still operate in the old school fashion of buff up, ball up, run in. They seem to forget that some classes are simply just slower than others. These classes will always lag behind the group creating a tail as the fight drags on, consider them easy targets. Also note that these guilds typically will never engage you when the numbers are even, so you can always try to bait them into a larger group, it has worked on numerous occasions.

    For scourges to be even remotely effective, they have to run forward with the melee train and drop shades as they go. You'll notice this if you turn and run in the other direction, you'll see shade red circles dropped behind you. After a couple of them are dropped the scourge has blown their cooldowns, turn around and kill them as there is no chance they can get back to their group.

  • shiri.4257shiri.4257 Member ✭✭✭

    @EremiteAngel.9765 said:
    There are pug zergs.
    And then there are average guild groups.
    And then there are skilled guild groups.
    And then there are extremely skilled guild groups.

    Naming a few extremely skilled guild groups currently active, in no particular order, that are tough to kill and relentless when they push (subjective according to what I've experienced, and not all-inclusive), we have guilds like:

    • Violent Resolution (VR)
    • Tempest Wolves (TW)
    • The Black Tides (TBT)
    • Giam Chye Cha Loti (AHMA)
    • Contrast (CRT)
    • Etc.

    So my question is...apart from 'get good' or 'git gud' which will take time for all the other guilds to progress to that 'extremely skilled' stage, what are the tips to take on these guilds?
    Tips in the form of group composition, rotation, build, engagement strategies etc.
    Should we bomb them from range? Charge into them? Pick on their stragglers?
    What should less skilled groups do to stand a better chance against them? What are they weak against? What would break them or force them to retreat?

    Wait til they disband to raid.

    Spectre [VII] - Wood League Champion. Making "fight guilds" stack on higher tiers since 2013.
    Wood League News Network [WLNN]- www.twitch.tv/shirirx

  • Dayra.7405Dayra.7405 Member ✭✭✭

    @Soxx.1264 said:
    Thinking any guild is good in 2018 :#

    Thinking the current combat mechanics support good guilds anymore?

    Thinking a top guild from 5 years ago would be still top with current combat mechanics?

  • aspirine.6852aspirine.6852 Member ✭✭✭

    @SloRules.3560 said:

    @Hoon.1524 said:
    Just raid with 30+ like the top EU guilds do. They're so big, you barely notice the pugs and the gankers around them.

    What? Are you delusional? Which guild runs 30+????? Not to mention you said, top EU guilds? No top EU guild even has 30 active people in a guild....

    Perhaps Kill can come up with 30+, which makes them insanely hard to kill. Their name does do them justice in this case.

  • Most efficient way to fight "supposed" top guilds is to:
    1) cloud with a quality core group (preferably players that are pvp-oriented)
    2) pin-snipe the driver
    3) both 1) and 2) in synergy

    *Rinse and repeat til you are done farming them and they rage log for the night.

    Cheerio!

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  • Hitman.5829Hitman.5829 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Those guilds you mentioned are trash.
    I don't why why other people don't just get melee builds and run over them.
    People have rely too much on necro's pirate ship that they have forgotten that melee classes are the most OP in serg fights.

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  • @Hiraldo.7954 said:
    TBT and CRT are dead, so you win by default there.

    VR is the best guild on your list, they run sustain heavy and crack to constant pressure and corrupt spam. If nothing is dying try single target focus.

    TW is [redacted so my post doesn't get deleted] goodn't, they run a bunch of zerk weavers that die if you breathe on them and a bunch of damage soaking potatos that dont do anything. Don't push into meteors in chokes and don't play their ranged game, instead either finesse their meteors, push straight through as fast as possible and sit on them, or just kill the weavers.

    I haven't seen AHMA run closed in a while so I assume you're referring to Cookie's zergs? Unless you're a good guild the only way you're killing that is by also having a map queue and catching them somewhere that they can't find a choke to hold.

    Hope that helps, you just have to observe what a group is doing and do something to counter it

    They are both still active I think, at least I saw TBT run just a couple of weeks ago and CRT about a month or two ago when I was linked to their servers.
    Unless they both stopped recently =/

    A Hermit's Tale - To The Edge of the Mists [Link Here]

  • Israel.7056Israel.7056 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 4, 2018

    The main problem with cloud is that it doesn't really work as an offensive strategy only as a defensive strategy. You might be able to cloud down an organized guild in a defensive fight but good luck taking anything from even a half decent guild group with clouding if the skill levels are even close to equal. Your best bet is to get organized and fight a guild group with another guild group.

  • shiri.4257shiri.4257 Member ✭✭✭

    just bring another guild group. EZ game

    Spectre [VII] - Wood League Champion. Making "fight guilds" stack on higher tiers since 2013.
    Wood League News Network [WLNN]- www.twitch.tv/shirirx

  • Hiraldo.7954Hiraldo.7954 Member ✭✭✭

    @EremiteAngel.9765 said:
    They are both still active I think, at least I saw TBT run just a couple of weeks ago and CRT about a month or two ago when I was linked to their servers.
    Unless they both stopped recently =/

    Both guild leaders got busy with real life in the past few weeks, however TBT is sorta reformed as TBD with a different driver and I'm sure some of the CRT players will form another guild soon enough whether that be under the rQm name or something new

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  • LetoII.3782LetoII.3782 Member ✭✭✭✭

    How salty are the kek readers rn?

    Not even mentioned xD

    [HUNT] the predatory instinct

  • @LetoII.3782 said:
    How salty are the kek readers rn?

    Not even mentioned xD

    Sometimes hard to see them behind the wall of pugs.

    Necromancer, Ranger, Warrior, Engineer, Revenant | Kaineng | Diamond Legend
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  • @SpellOfIniquity.1780 said:

    @LetoII.3782 said:
    How salty are the kek readers rn?

    Not even mentioned xD

    Sometimes hard to see them behind the wall of pugs.

    ouch.

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