Raid Selling and "LFG" Clutter [Merged] — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Raid Selling and "LFG" Clutter [Merged]

Buckeye.9846Buckeye.9846 Member ✭✭
edited January 14, 2019 in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

In this forum post from 2015 Gaile Gray say that selling posts in the lfg is allowed http://prntscr.com/lscmc2

"Our policy: Players may use the LFG Tool only for the formation of a group.

Players may use the tool to sell a spot in a group, but they may not use it to sell or trade items or for any other unintended purposes. Doing so will result in an account infraction.

You can help us reduce the spam and refocus the tool by reporting individuals who are misusing the LFG Tool. Simply click on the name of that player in your chat window, right click, choose “Report,” and then choose “LFG System Abuse.” With your help we’ll be able to keep the LFG Tool clear for your use in forming groups"

However in recent responses by Anet GM's they have said this game is meant to be actively played, how is getting boosted in content u otherwise wouldnt succeed in count as actively playing. The people selling raids usually tell their customers to kill their char and they will do the raid themselves so the raid can be done smoothly. This is not active play and you are boosting your account with rewards you otherwise would not get.

A big portion of the raid lfg and other sections of the lfg is filled with people selling clears, how is this allowed. RMT is a big no no for Anet and i'm sure some of the sellers accept real money for clears aswell.

What do you think

Tagged:
<1

Comments

  • Getting killed at teq and not respawning is not good either, you are not actively participating in the meta and you get reward for others work. Not good example to bring up a raid fight, there is no way for the dead to respawn when the rest of team is fighting. If someone is not pulling their weight in raids that person gets kicked, You cant kick players from world metas, you can and should however report them for botting.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Buckeye.9846 said:
    You cant kick players from world metas, you can and should however report them for botting.

    That would result in lots of false reports and would be terrible for the CS team. After all, the only way they ban someone for botting is by finding said player and sending them a few whispers. If they don't respond, they are inactive and they can take action against them. If they do, they aren't botting anyway. That's not something they can do for dead people, either inside a Raid, or (even worse!) during a world event.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I don't get how you associated raid selling with RMT ...
    Got no problem with people selling raid spots.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • @Obtena.7952 said:
    I don't get how you associated raid selling with RMT ...
    Got no problem with people selling raid spots.

    People been selling AT tourn wins for real cash, of course some sellers accept real money for clears

  • HnRkLnXqZ.1870HnRkLnXqZ.1870 Member ✭✭✭

    By offering those clears, you give the players out there an alternative to never bother with the content at all, but gaining every advantage anyway. So they forcefully reduce the player-base, prevent a good portion of people from even trying the thing for real, and transform the content into a dull repetitive routine for themselves. That is not forbidden, but imho counter-productive if you really enjoy the content and believe more people should give it a try.

    It belongs to the long list of player-created-problems. So it would be our task to find a proper solution to this. Reasoning with the sellers is pointless.

    Discussing the topic in public sooner or later leads to the ultimate argument. I have not managed a way to counter that, yet. You can justify almost everything with that line:

    It is a free world, everyone can decide for themselves whether they want to do this or not.

  • @mindcircus.1506 said:
    The developers have gone on record as saying they are just fine with raid selling.

    This is a non-issue.

    Then they are contradicting themselves, you cant disallow boosting your account/s and use "active" play as a basis for other suspensions. And give people buying raids a pass.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Buckeye.9846 said:

    @mindcircus.1506 said:
    The developers have gone on record as saying they are just fine with raid selling.

    This is a non-issue.

    Then they are contradicting themselves, you cant disallow boosting your account/s and use "active" play as a basis for other suspensions. And give people buying raids a pass.

    Let me get this. If I get a low level friend of mine and "boost" them while they are standing there and I finish let's say a couple T1 fractals. Is that questionable to you? Boosting your account -alone- for your own benefit is illegal and should be. In the other cases some players might be inactive, but others are perfectly active finishing the content -for- them. This is the difference, having some other players "boost" you is completely different to "boosting" yourself using a bot or other similar program.

  • Buckeye.9846Buckeye.9846 Member ✭✭
    edited December 8, 2018

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Buckeye.9846 said:

    @mindcircus.1506 said:
    The developers have gone on record as saying they are just fine with raid selling.

    This is a non-issue.

    Then they are contradicting themselves, you cant disallow boosting your account/s and use "active" play as a basis for other suspensions. And give people buying raids a pass.

    Let me get this. If I get a low level friend of mine and "boost" them while they are standing there and I finish let's say a couple T1 fractals. Is that questionable to you? Boosting your account -alone- for your own benefit is illegal and should be. In the other cases some players might be inactive, but others are perfectly active finishing the content -for- them. This is the difference, having some other players "boost" you is completely different to "boosting" yourself using a bot or other similar program.

    This is a interraction between a GM and a player:

    Player:
    "During Wintersday I do the following. I multibox my accounts and do a group with them. I go inside the Wintersday Dungeon and use my main account to clear the instance while the others just stand around at start. Now since this is an extreme strain to my PC already, I try to not tab over to another account unless I finished the Boss Golem. This means I wont be able to react on of those accounts while I am running around on my main."

    GM:
    "That would become problematic. You would not be playing actively at that point. Yes, you are in a sense 'just boosting your other accounts', but if you write your computer is pushed to the limit of what it can handle, you'd need to consider what it looks like. The game is made to be actively played. If you are not actively playing it and you need to take shortcuts and assistance to push your system past what it could normally do, something's not right."

    So yes, you doing the work while someone standing doing nothing is boosting, and not allowed. That player is not actively playing and get rewards. It doesnt matter if its you and some friends doing it or you and your alts.

    Explain this
    "This is the difference, having some other players "boost" you is completely different to "boosting" yourself using a bot or other similar program."

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Buckeye.9846 said:
    "This is the difference, having some other players "boost" you is completely different to "boosting" yourself using a bot or other similar program."

    I assume the GM said only what is in the quotes, and the paragraph under it is yours? Because they are really different.

    Because the GM was talking about boosting your other accounts, which are all still yours, this isn't similar to a player being boosted by their friends (or someone they paid). Further, as I said, they ban when you don't respond. Someone that is being boosted by their friends, or even a raid seller, WILL be online to get their rewards, chat with their palls, they aren't going afk so if a GM approaches them they will be able to respond, unlike that situation in your post.

  • Shikigami.4013Shikigami.4013 Member ✭✭✭

    Actively playing never meant you have to move, press skills, jump up and down or dance. Actively playing means that you as a player of the account must be present, pay sufficient attention to the running game and are able to react to a GM when he tries to interact with the character. You have no obligation to do anything in the game, be it move, kill mobs, use skills, or anything else.

    The "problematic" thing here is that the situation described specifically states that the player will NOT tab to his alt accounts and will NOT be able to notice when a GM tries to interact with his other accounts. But multiboxing is only allowed as long as you actively play all of those accounts, meaning that you MUST be able to respond to a GM trying to interact with any of the accounts you currently have logged in.

    Multiboxing three accounts to go into an instance and use one character to clear the instance if fine as long as your other account characters do not become merely unsupervised zombies that fail to react to anything that is happening in the game because they are tabbed out. Get the difference?

    YouTube “L2villagejester”.
    People using belittling wording like whining/qqing" are not taken seriously by me
    Same for people posting only to tell others not to post (“deal with it”-posts)

  • Because there's just no way to stop it.

    If they forbid it in-game, people would start advertising in chat to check some discord site.

    And the only real way to stop it would be making trading impossible and gold account bound, and that would also prevent many desirable behaviors, like guild contests with prices and giveaways, and helping newbies.

  • @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Buckeye.9846 said:
    "This is the difference, having some other players "boost" you is completely different to "boosting" yourself using a bot or other similar program."

    I assume the GM said only what is in the quotes, and the paragraph under it is yours? Because they are really different.

    Because the GM was talking about boosting your other accounts, which are all still yours, this isn't similar to a player being boosted by their friends (or someone they paid). Further, as I said, they ban when you don't respond. Someone that is being boosted by their friends, or even a raid seller, WILL be online to get their rewards, chat with their palls, they aren't going afk so if a GM approaches them they will be able to respond, unlike that situation in your post.

    Also from GM
    "You need to be active and involved when you gain benefits in the game. So "afking while meta", if it gives you a benefit, is not okay. The game was made to be played, actively, by a person directing the actions directly."

    If you are aware and responsive how is boosting your own chars any different then boosting your friends. People who buy raids do it with the intent to get rewards they would not get otherwise. Paying someone to do content for you to get rewards is not you being involved in the game. The people selling the raid would succeed is beating the raid no matter who is the buyer.

    And with Anet allowing sell posts to stay up in the lfg they encourage the behaviour of not being involved the gameplay while getting rewards. And potential RMT between sellers and buyers.

  • @Shikigami.4013 said:
    Actively playing never meant you have to move, press skills, jump up and down or dance. Actively playing means that you as a player of the account must be present, pay sufficient attention to the running game and are able to react to a GM when he tries to interact with the character. You have no obligation to do anything in the game, be it move, kill mobs, use skills, or anything else.

    The "problematic" thing here is that the situation described specifically states that the player will NOT tab to his alt accounts and will NOT be able to notice when a GM tries to interact with his other accounts. But multiboxing is only allowed as long as you actively play all of those accounts, meaning that you MUST be able to respond to a GM trying to interact with any of the accounts you currently have logged in.

    Multiboxing three accounts to go into an instance and use one character to clear the instance if fine as long as your other account characters do not become merely unsupervised zombies that fail to react to anything that is happening in the game because they are tabbed out. Get the difference?

    This is sort of a double edged sword isn't it? What happens if you're in the middle of a boss fight, and the GM tries to communicate with your alt accounts? Are you going to accept the bans, or are you coming to the forums with "but I was in the middle of a boss fight, and couldn't respond on that account"? I say this as someone who, in other MMOs, has run multiple clients looking to pull specific items from an end chest in a quest. I tend to clear a section, move the alt account to that spot, clear the next section, rinse and repeat. If, however, I'm in the middle of a big fight, I may miss it if a GM tries to communicate with me on the secondary account.

    I believe the solution to the OP's problem is actually listed in their opening post: If you believe the system is being abused, report it, and hope the GM that investigates agrees with you, otherwise you may pull your own infraction. If you join a group and they offer an RMT clear, screenshot it, and submit a report. Don't post the screenshot on the forums, include it in your report. Otherwise, there's really no reason to discuss it here, the avenues for dealing with this are clearly laid out.

  • @Buckeye.9846 said:

    @mindcircus.1506 said:
    The developers have gone on record as saying they are just fine with raid selling.

    This is a non-issue.

    Then they are contradicting themselves, you cant disallow boosting your account/s and use "active" play as a basis for other suspensions. And give people buying raids a pass.

    Most raid buyers (as far as I know) are more or less active participants in the encounter. It is absolutely different than your history of exploiting and getting suspended during Wintersday.

    I'm willing to wager you don't even raid.

  • kharmin.7683kharmin.7683 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Buckeye.9846 said:
    In this forum post from 2015 Gaile Gray say that selling posts in the lfg is allowed http://prntscr.com/lscmc2

    "Our policy: Players may use the LFG Tool only for the formation of a group.

    Players may use the tool to sell a spot in a group, but they may not use it to sell or trade items or for any other unintended purposes. Doing so will result in an account infraction.

    You can help us reduce the spam and refocus the tool by reporting individuals who are misusing the LFG Tool. Simply click on the name of that player in your chat window, right click, choose “Report,” and then choose “LFG System Abuse.” With your help we’ll be able to keep the LFG Tool clear for your use in forming groups"

    However in recent responses by Anet GM's they have said this game is meant to be actively played, how is getting boosted in content u otherwise wouldnt succeed in count as actively playing. The people selling raids usually tell their customers to kill their char and they will do the raid themselves so the raid can be done smoothly. This is not active play and you are boosting your account with rewards you otherwise would not get.

    A big portion of the raid lfg and other sections of the lfg is filled with people selling clears, how is this allowed. RMT is a big no no for Anet and i'm sure some of the sellers accept real money for clears aswell.

    What do you think

    How does this affect you? Why should you care? Raids are not a competitive environment. I don't understand the point here.

    I am a very casual player.
    Very.
    Casual.

  • What has me raiding or not have anything to do with it. The people i talked to about raid buying have told me the buyer doesnt need to stay alive for the encounter, even asked to die. This is not being involved in the fighting. Dont even need to raid to look on the lfg at all the selling posts that are there.

    I'm sure you dont pvp but are you okay with people selling pvp rewards to people who suck at pvp, even for real money. Those are unique rewards for the best, sold to the highest bidder.

    Its boosting your accounts with rewards you normally wouldnt get.

  • Shikigami.4013Shikigami.4013 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 8, 2018

    It is not a double-edged sword. It is known for years that GMs will be "overly generous" with the time given to respond, and a GM will not try to interact with you and then when you do not reply within a minute immediately ban that account. People "getting banned" for not immediately replying is just fearmongering.

    Theoretical scenarios about people being banned because they don't reply immediately keep being brought up over and over no matter if the topic is afk-farming, "afking a meta", raid-selling or multiboxing in an instance (or anywhere else) like in this case. It goes from "what if the phone rings", "what if the doorbell rings", "what if I have to go to the toilet", "what if there is an emergency", "what if my kid cries" and here "what if I am just in a boss fight" :)

    Chris Cleary (Game security lead), May 19th 2016 on the topic on GM checks concerning people being unresponsive to GM interaction:
    GMs have been trained to identify and handle these situations, it’s one of the first things they learn. GMs are overly generous on the amount of time that players are given to respond.

    The whole very long thread (which is about afk-farming) is here in the archive

    YouTube “L2villagejester”.
    People using belittling wording like whining/qqing" are not taken seriously by me
    Same for people posting only to tell others not to post (“deal with it”-posts)

  • In raids, you have to do some damage to get credit. On the spectrum from 100% inactive to 100% active, that puts you across the arbitrary line that ANet has drawn.

    Why did they draw the line there rather than further along the spectrum? To a large extent, that's a moot question. We can reasonably presume that they have a better idea than we do about what's better for the game in the long run. If they don't see a problem, why are we trying to imagine one for them?

    For some it can be interesting to speculate regardless and some answers have been suggested:

    • The existing line is easier to enforce than a stricter one. (Fairly easy to explain & demonstrate.)
    • People who buy a raid run are actively involved in the game in other ways, otherwise they couldn't afford the cost and wouldn't be interested in the service. (Even easier to explain & demonstrate. I know people who chose to learn to raid, after having been carried in their first raid boss fight.)

    "Face the facts. Then act on them. It's ...the only doctrine I have to offer you, & it's harder than you'd think, because I swear humans seem hardwired to do anything but. Face the facts. Don't pray, don't wish, ...FACE THE FACTS. THEN act." — Quellcrist Falconer

  • @Buckeye.9846 said:
    What has me raiding or not have anything to do with it.

    So you don't raid but are mad at the raid sellers because you were previously suspended for exploiting during Wintersday.

    Amazing.

  • @kharmin.7683 said:

    @Buckeye.9846 said:
    In this forum post from 2015 Gaile Gray say that selling posts in the lfg is allowed http://prntscr.com/lscmc2

    "Our policy: Players may use the LFG Tool only for the formation of a group.

    Players may use the tool to sell a spot in a group, but they may not use it to sell or trade items or for any other unintended purposes. Doing so will result in an account infraction.

    You can help us reduce the spam and refocus the tool by reporting individuals who are misusing the LFG Tool. Simply click on the name of that player in your chat window, right click, choose “Report,” and then choose “LFG System Abuse.” With your help we’ll be able to keep the LFG Tool clear for your use in forming groups"

    However in recent responses by Anet GM's they have said this game is meant to be actively played, how is getting boosted in content u otherwise wouldnt succeed in count as actively playing. The people selling raids usually tell their customers to kill their char and they will do the raid themselves so the raid can be done smoothly. This is not active play and you are boosting your account with rewards you otherwise would not get.

    A big portion of the raid lfg and other sections of the lfg is filled with people selling clears, how is this allowed. RMT is a big no no for Anet and i'm sure some of the sellers accept real money for clears aswell.

    What do you think

    How does this affect you? Why should you care? Raids are not a competitive environment. I don't understand the point here.

    Beacuse i believe rules should apply to everyone not “rules are for thee, but not for me”. And i believe Anet should be strict with their tos they have in their game, or scrap parts of it to be consistent. Other players in games such as WoW have voiced their compliants with people selling clears for gold and RMT, maybe Anet who likes to do things differently should do something about it.

    Not everything people do affects me personally or in game but i care for the game so why souldnt i care.

  • Haishao.6851Haishao.6851 Member ✭✭✭

    How is it different than buying items on the trading post instead of getting them yourself?
    You stand there doing nothing and receive items that other players found.

  • @mindcircus.1506 said:

    @Buckeye.9846 said:
    What has me raiding or not have anything to do with it.

    So you don't raid but are mad at the raid sellers because you were previously suspended for exploiting during Wintersday.

    Amazing.

    That is not me in example i gave, just someone from a thread on reddit.

  • There's also some confusion about what's actually going on.

    A big portion of the raid lfg and other sections of the lfg is filled with people selling clears,

    That is a relatively unimportant statistic. It is inevitable that selling adverts will persist compared to pick up group listings.

    • There's no reason to remove a sales advert. A selling guild can take orders 24/7, at least as long as one member is awake, to schedule a run at whatever time.
    • Pick up listings disappear as soon as they are filled.

    At any given moment, therefore, the list will be dominated by persisting adverts over transitory requests for more to start. That tells us nothing about the relative number of adverts compared to LFG.

    RMT is a big no no for Anet and i'm sure some of the sellers accept real money for clears aswell.

    I can't be sure of that. And even if you made an actual case that this has happened, it tells us nothing about how often that happens, compared to any other non-TP trade in the game.

    People run giveaways (lotteries and trivia contests and such) and some of those turned out to have been funded by RMT. Likewise, prominent members of the community are often the recipients of gifts from generous fans of theirs. On occasion, some of those gifts have turned out to be RMT (including the infamous case of Dulfy, who was swept up in the clean-up afterward). The fact that RMT customers have done these things doesn't make giveaways bad, it doesn't mean people shouldn't accept gifts from fans or friends, and it's also not an argument as to why selling raid clears is bad; these are just examples of how RMT has more far-reaching effects than we realize.

    "Face the facts. Then act on them. It's ...the only doctrine I have to offer you, & it's harder than you'd think, because I swear humans seem hardwired to do anything but. Face the facts. Don't pray, don't wish, ...FACE THE FACTS. THEN act." — Quellcrist Falconer

  • HardRider.2980HardRider.2980 Member ✭✭✭

    It's always been a grey area.. They won't support it nor ban it... Despite everyone calling for it to have at least it's own section.
    It's a shame really, because I know a lot of people who want to get into it, are put off by the lfg/forced into P2W in raids

    A City of Heroes never die... A City of Villains will never surrender... Neither City will be forgotten.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 8, 2018

    @Buckeye.9846 said:
    "You need to be active and involved when you gain benefits in the game. So "afking while meta", if it gives you a benefit, is not okay. The game was made to be played, actively, by a person directing the actions directly."

    I want to see if they respond and take action against players "afking while in a meta". As for those using "thumbs up" on the OPs posts, because he is against the evil raid sellers, and you hate raids, his very idea will have you banned when you are in a meta and refuse to waypoint.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 8, 2018

    @Buckeye.9846 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    I don't get how you associated raid selling with RMT ...
    Got no problem with people selling raid spots.

    People been selling AT tourn wins for real cash, of course some sellers accept real money for clears

    Accepting real money is a bannable offense, no matter what in-game you're selling. And people caught doing it do get banned. It's not getting ignored or treated leniently.

    It's a completely unrelated case to raid selling. They can't really forbid it, because it would have a far reaching consequences.
    In short, selling things directly while bypassing TP is not forbidden. Gifting people gold or items for whatever reason you can think of is not forbidden. Having less skilled friends and helping them out with the content they have problem with (or, consequently, having more skilled friends and asking them to help you out when you run into trouble) is also not forbidden. Why would a combination of all those things become forbidden then? And how they could effectively forbid the latter without having to act against at least some of the former example cases?

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Buckeye.9846 said:
    "You need to be active and involved when you gain benefits in the game. So "afking while meta", if it gives you a benefit, is not okay. The game was made to be played, actively, by a person directing the actions directly."

    I want to see if they respond and take action against players "afking while in a meta". As for those using "thumbs up" on the OPs posts, because he is against the evil raid sellers, and you hate raids, his very idea will have you banned when you are in a meta and refuse to waypoint.

    What's worse, it will get you banned for trying to finish the meta while someone refuses to waypoint or is slacking.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • zionophir.6845zionophir.6845 Member ✭✭
    edited December 8, 2018

    i tried to sell builds in the forums for in game gold and a mod removed it as "other real money transaction".

    so i'll eff'in make a website with paid subscription containing my builds instead. thank you for giving me an idea.

    knock knock, metabattle.com. please place a footnote/credit.

  • kharmin.7683kharmin.7683 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Buckeye.9846 said:

    @kharmin.7683 said:

    @Buckeye.9846 said:
    In this forum post from 2015 Gaile Gray say that selling posts in the lfg is allowed http://prntscr.com/lscmc2

    "Our policy: Players may use the LFG Tool only for the formation of a group.

    Players may use the tool to sell a spot in a group, but they may not use it to sell or trade items or for any other unintended purposes. Doing so will result in an account infraction.

    You can help us reduce the spam and refocus the tool by reporting individuals who are misusing the LFG Tool. Simply click on the name of that player in your chat window, right click, choose “Report,” and then choose “LFG System Abuse.” With your help we’ll be able to keep the LFG Tool clear for your use in forming groups"

    However in recent responses by Anet GM's they have said this game is meant to be actively played, how is getting boosted in content u otherwise wouldnt succeed in count as actively playing. The people selling raids usually tell their customers to kill their char and they will do the raid themselves so the raid can be done smoothly. This is not active play and you are boosting your account with rewards you otherwise would not get.

    A big portion of the raid lfg and other sections of the lfg is filled with people selling clears, how is this allowed. RMT is a big no no for Anet and i'm sure some of the sellers accept real money for clears aswell.

    What do you think

    How does this affect you? Why should you care? Raids are not a competitive environment. I don't understand the point here.

    Beacuse i believe rules should apply to everyone not “rules are for thee, but not for me”. And i believe Anet should be strict with their tos they have in their game, or scrap parts of it to be consistent. Other players in games such as WoW have voiced their compliants with people selling clears for gold and RMT, maybe Anet who likes to do things differently should do something about it.

    Not everything people do affects me personally or in game but i care for the game so why souldnt i care.

    If ANet doesn't have a problem with it, and it doesn't give any competitive advantage to any players in that arena, it really doesn't affect you. It's good that you care, but in my opinion you really don't have a point here.

    I am a very casual player.
    Very.
    Casual.

  • blambidy.3216blambidy.3216 Member ✭✭✭

    As much as I don’t like selling raids, I think it’s truly a good thing to the community. Since this is a non sub game, it means it’s more casual then wow/ffxiv. So within that, it means more players don’t raid as much in gw2.

    Gw2 being a different end game system did a great thing. That end game doesn’t mean you (have) to raid to get end game drops. World bosses drop legendary precursors, ascended etc. so a lot more players have a choice. With Our endgame it’s a different meaning, you don’t (have) to raid to get what you need. People can buy raids who don’t know how to complete the raid. But that’s ok, it’s their gold, it’s supporting the elite raiders.

    And I raid almost everyday. So a person who just wants to buy a dhuum cm instance would be pretty sweet to see up front. I wouldn’t, but it won’t stop others from doing that. And I don’t think it’s hurting the community. If anything it’s giving gw2 a bigger raiding community.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 8, 2018

    @Buckeye.9846 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    I don't get how you associated raid selling with RMT ...
    Got no problem with people selling raid spots.

    People been selling AT tourn wins for real cash, of course some sellers accept real money for clears

    OK ... but RMT happens without raid selling so ... ?

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • @Shikigami.4013 said:
    It is not a double-edged sword. It is known for years that GMs will be "overly generous" with the time given to respond, and a GM will not try to interact with you and then when you do not reply within a minute immediately ban that account. People "getting banned" for not immediately replying is just fearmongering.

    Theoretical scenarios about people being banned because they don't reply immediately keep being brought up over and over no matter if the topic is afk-farming, "afking a meta", raid-selling or multiboxing in an instance (or anywhere else) like in this case. It goes from "what if the phone rings", "what if the doorbell rings", "what if I have to go to the toilet", "what if there is an emergency", "what if my kid cries" and here "what if I am just in a boss fight" :)

    Chris Cleary (Game security lead), May 19th 2016 on the topic on GM checks concerning people being unresponsive to GM interaction:
    GMs have been trained to identify and handle these situations, it’s one of the first things they learn. GMs are overly generous on the amount of time that players are given to respond.

    The whole very long thread (which is about afk-farming) is here in the archive

    That's nice, who said anything about immediate? The first time I saw it in this topic, you brought it up. So how about answering what I actually said, instead of what you wanted for me to have said?

  • @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:
    In raids, you have to do some damage to get credit. On the spectrum from 100% inactive to 100% active, that puts you across the arbitrary line that ANet has drawn.

    Why did they draw the line there rather than further along the spectrum? To a large extent, that's a moot question. We can reasonably presume that they have a better idea than we do about what's better for the game in the long run. If they don't see a problem, why are we trying to imagine one for them?

    For some it can be interesting to speculate regardless and some answers have been suggested:

    • The existing line is easier to enforce than a stricter one. (Fairly easy to explain & demonstrate.)
    • People who buy a raid run are actively involved in the game in other ways, otherwise they couldn't afford the cost and wouldn't be interested in the service. (Even easier to explain & demonstrate. I know people who chose to learn to raid, after having been carried in their first raid boss fight.)

    Im 99% sure you dont have to do any damage to receive credit in a raid. You just have to be in the instance when the boss is killed, even if you are dead at the start.

    Anyway on topic, I hate raid selling. But I fully admit it is very different to trading over lfg or multiboxing. The raid sellers are searching for a member to join a group and complete content, so it fits in anets definition. As long as they are sitting at the screen, they are considered 'active', even if they are lying dead for the fight.

    I personally feel that players should earn raid rewards since they are hard content. Buying the rewards removes all the purpose of the content itself. But anet and alot of players disagree so I will suck it up and just ignore raid selling groups.

  • preacher.9370preacher.9370 Member ✭✭✭

    i have bought a raid boss kill before. Why? because training runs had not provided me with a kill to max out masteries. the kill i bought was for gors, which i had done a training run on, so i knew the gist of the fight, was told up front, don't have to fight, can just stand there, but i joined in, knew the mechanics well enough from training run, survived and got the kill.

    to be honest, it had me wanting to do more raids. but how could I join a raid, since i don't have X amount of whatever it is people demand everyone has to even be considered to be taken on a raid?

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @preacher.9370 said:
    i have bought a raid boss kill before. Why? because training runs had not provided me with a kill to max out masteries. the kill i bought was for gors, which i had done a training run on, so i knew the gist of the fight, was told up front, don't have to fight, can just stand there, but i joined in, knew the mechanics well enough from training run, survived and got the kill.

    to be honest, it had me wanting to do more raids. but how could I join a raid, since i don't have X amount of whatever it is people demand everyone has to even be considered to be taken on a raid?

    You find a static group with similar experince as yourself and slowly build up your li + decos from each boss.
    Or you continue to join training groups and abysmaly slowly build up li and dec from some bosses.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Buckeye.9846

    You should always check the forum first for the official rules...

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/352/policy-third-party-programs-multi-boxing-macros

    “Dual- or Multi-Boxing

    • You may use more than one account at the same time.
    • You may use more than one computer at the same time.
    • You must be actively playing on each account.
    • As stated above, you may not program your keyboard to perform functions on more than one account at a time. For example, if you press W on your keyboard to move forward, a single character on a single account should move forward. The keystroke or mouse click should not perform functions on more than one account.”

    We have been given official word on raid selling. This issue you have is with multi-boxing, and the quote should clear things up.

    GL

  • sephiroth.4217sephiroth.4217 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @HnRkLnXqZ.1870 said:
    By offering those clears, you give the players out there an alternative to never bother with the content at all, but gaining every advantage anyway. So they forcefully reduce the player-base, prevent a good portion of people from even trying the thing for real, and transform the content into a dull repetitive routine for themselves. That is not forbidden, but imho counter-productive if you really enjoy the content and believe more people should give it a try.

    It belongs to the long list of player-created-problems. So it would be our task to find a proper solution to this. Reasoning with the sellers is pointless.

    Discussing the topic in public sooner or later leads to the ultimate argument. I have not managed a way to counter that, yet. You can justify almost everything with that line:

    It is a free world, everyone can decide for themselves whether they want to do this or not.

    Actually the sold spots are the only way for some of us to get into a raid...

    How long have raids been out? Ive been posting as a first timer since then and repeatedly kicked from groups because of it, literally no one wants a first timer in thier raids...

    Not to brag, but I put together a puzzle in 4 days and the box said 2-4 years.
    Please allow team queue with rewards again at our own discretion

  • Ayakaru.6583Ayakaru.6583 Member ✭✭✭✭

    To put it shortly:
    I’m not a plumber. So i work actuvely to acquire a tradeable good i can give to a plumber in exchange for plumbing works.
    I’m also not a professional raider, just okayish. I’ve done most stuff except kill Dhuum and the last raid.
    So i play actively to acquire a tradeable good like mystic coins which i can trade for a Dhuum kill.

    As for what anet says on active playing; you can sell spots and an active raiding group.
    But not on a group that doesnt plan to raid once the group has amassed numbers. For example “buy a spot for monday’s clear”. That shouldn’t be allowed. Since you’re not joining an ‘active’ group

    To defeat the dragons, see the good in them.
    Zhaitan reunites lost ones, primordus creates fertile land, mordremoth spreads the green, and jormag..
    ..jormag? Who's that?

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @sephiroth.4217 said:

    @HnRkLnXqZ.1870 said:
    By offering those clears, you give the players out there an alternative to never bother with the content at all, but gaining every advantage anyway. So they forcefully reduce the player-base, prevent a good portion of people from even trying the thing for real, and transform the content into a dull repetitive routine for themselves. That is not forbidden, but imho counter-productive if you really enjoy the content and believe more people should give it a try.

    It belongs to the long list of player-created-problems. So it would be our task to find a proper solution to this. Reasoning with the sellers is pointless.

    Discussing the topic in public sooner or later leads to the ultimate argument. I have not managed a way to counter that, yet. You can justify almost everything with that line:

    It is a free world, everyone can decide for themselves whether they want to do this or not.

    Actually the sold spots are the only way for some of us to get into a raid...

    How long have raids been out? Ive been posting as a first timer since then and repeatedly kicked from groups because of it, literally no one wants a first timer in thier raids...

    I'm sorry but no, if you had actually any real interest in raids you would have found ways to raid by now.

    Simply putting up a Looking for Group and hoping people will flock to you and add you to their raid is about as fruitful as watching grass grow (and as productive).

    There are proper ways which have proven successful for people to get into raiding. They include but are not limited to:

    • joining a guild which raids and does training runs
    • joining general training runs
    • joining a discord server and finding a training raid there (there are discord servers with 1,000+ players on them running multiple training raids at a time

    I'm not opposed to people selling raid and boss kills (though I am not thrilled by this either) but this constant nonsense about raids being hard to get into ist just that: nonsense.

    There are elegible reasons for someone not being able to raid:

    • time commitment
    • age and or disabilities (and even here there is tons of players who manage)
    • social anxiety
    • etc.

    Most everything else are poor excuses.

  • Blocki.4931Blocki.4931 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The answer is: It doesn't hurt anybody, that's why it's allowed to exist.

    Smugly chuckling forever.
    My sentence doesn't make sense? Well, I probably forgot to write half of it before posting.

  • sephiroth.4217sephiroth.4217 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 9, 2018

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @sephiroth.4217 said:

    @HnRkLnXqZ.1870 said:
    By offering those clears, you give the players out there an alternative to never bother with the content at all, but gaining every advantage anyway. So they forcefully reduce the player-base, prevent a good portion of people from even trying the thing for real, and transform the content into a dull repetitive routine for themselves. That is not forbidden, but imho counter-productive if you really enjoy the content and believe more people should give it a try.

    It belongs to the long list of player-created-problems. So it would be our task to find a proper solution to this. Reasoning with the sellers is pointless.

    Discussing the topic in public sooner or later leads to the ultimate argument. I have not managed a way to counter that, yet. You can justify almost everything with that line:

    It is a free world, everyone can decide for themselves whether they want to do this or not.

    Actually the sold spots are the only way for some of us to get into a raid...

    How long have raids been out? Ive been posting as a first timer since then and repeatedly kicked from groups because of it, literally no one wants a first timer in thier raids...

    I'm sorry but no, if you had actually any real interest in raids you would have found ways to raid by now.

    Simply putting up a Looking for Group and hoping people will flock to you and add you to their raid is about as fruitful as watching grass grow (and as productive).

    There are proper ways which have proven successful for people to get into raiding. They include but are not limited to:

    • joining a guild which raids and does training runs
    • joining general training runs
    • joining a discord server and finding a training raid there (there are discord servers with 1,000+ players on them running multiple training raids at a time

    I'm not opposed to people selling raid and boss kills (though I am not thrilled by this either) but this constant nonsense about raids being hard to get into ist just that: nonsense.

    There are elegible reasons for someone not being able to raid:

    • time commitment
    • age and or disabilities (and even here there is tons of players who manage)
    • social anxiety
    • etc.

    Most everything else are poor excuses.

    Not all of us sit there posting every single day, some of us have families and work to attend too so when I get a spare 2 or 3 hours to game I post and I still havent managed to get in on one yet, Ive made a few threads on the forums here asking to be invited and yet Im still to raid.

    Raiders are elitists, its as simple as that. Not in a bad way either, its about effeciency.
    (I totally get it too now after playing cod 4 zombie mode, im level 52 and dont start a round with anything less than level 5 or micless because I want to go more than 10 to 15 rounds)

    Those sellers really help players like me and if Im putting money into the game to convert to gold to buy raids then inadvertently they help Anet too, so with that said, I hope nothing drastic changes on the matter.

    Not to brag, but I put together a puzzle in 4 days and the box said 2-4 years.
    Please allow team queue with rewards again at our own discretion

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @sephiroth.4217 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @sephiroth.4217 said:

    @HnRkLnXqZ.1870 said:
    By offering those clears, you give the players out there an alternative to never bother with the content at all, but gaining every advantage anyway. So they forcefully reduce the player-base, prevent a good portion of people from even trying the thing for real, and transform the content into a dull repetitive routine for themselves. That is not forbidden, but imho counter-productive if you really enjoy the content and believe more people should give it a try.

    It belongs to the long list of player-created-problems. So it would be our task to find a proper solution to this. Reasoning with the sellers is pointless.

    Discussing the topic in public sooner or later leads to the ultimate argument. I have not managed a way to counter that, yet. You can justify almost everything with that line:

    It is a free world, everyone can decide for themselves whether they want to do this or not.

    Actually the sold spots are the only way for some of us to get into a raid...

    How long have raids been out? Ive been posting as a first timer since then and repeatedly kicked from groups because of it, literally no one wants a first timer in thier raids...

    I'm sorry but no, if you had actually any real interest in raids you would have found ways to raid by now.

    Simply putting up a Looking for Group and hoping people will flock to you and add you to their raid is about as fruitful as watching grass grow (and as productive).

    There are proper ways which have proven successful for people to get into raiding. They include but are not limited to:

    • joining a guild which raids and does training runs
    • joining general training runs
    • joining a discord server and finding a training raid there (there are discord servers with 1,000+ players on them running multiple training raids at a time

    I'm not opposed to people selling raid and boss kills (though I am not thrilled by this either) but this constant nonsense about raids being hard to get into ist just that: nonsense.

    There are elegible reasons for someone not being able to raid:

    • time commitment
    • age and or disabilities (and even here there is tons of players who manage)
    • social anxiety
    • etc.

    Most everything else are poor excuses.

    Not all of us sit there posting every single day, some of us have families and work to attend too so when I get a spare 2 or 3 hours to game I post and I still havent managed to get in on one yet, Ive made a few threads on the forums here asking to be invited and yet Im still to raid.

    Raiders are elitists, its as simple as that. Not in a bad way either, its about effeciency.
    (I totally get it too now after playing cod 4 zombie mode, im level 52 and dont start a round with anything less than level 5 or micless because I want to go more than 10 to 15 rounds)

    Those sellers really help players like me and if Im putting money into the game to convert to gold to buy raids then inadvertently they help Anet too, so with that said, I hope nothing drastic changes on the matter.

    I fully understand your situation. Please realize though that your approach to raid is akin to entering an empty room day in day out and then complaining that you never meet someone. The LFG is very special in what gets searched for and how it gets used.

    Posting in the LFG is simply not the way to get into raiding. It isn't even for experienced raiders (unless they are playing a highly demanded role like chrono and even then it will take way longer than joining directly). Less so as inexperienced raider performing lesser roles. It will NEVER happen that way.

    If you want to raid and are limited time wise (which I mentioned as a limiting criteria) then join a raid training discord server and check in there when you have time. Or join a guild which have flexible raid trainings and try to get an evening off. I'm currently helping out in 2 guilds with raid training and many people in those raids have families and full time jobs (and as such are also very precise on ending on time for example).

  • Warlord.9082Warlord.9082 Member ✭✭✭

    @Buckeye.9846 said:
    Getting killed at teq and not respawning is not good either, you are not actively participating in the meta and you get reward for others work. Not good example to bring up a raid fight, there is no way for the dead to respawn when the rest of team is fighting. If someone is not pulling their weight in raids that person gets kicked, You cant kick players from world metas, you can and should however report them for botting.

    Not pulling your weight in the world meta equates to botting... Right... I hope they ban you for abusing the report function...

  • gebrechen.5643gebrechen.5643 Member ✭✭✭

    These types of selling are killing games in the long run. It hurts the games economy, it hurts the player base looking for people that want to raid and work for it and it takes people out of the pool, because of the "have seen all of it" issue.
    I really don't understand why developers don't care about that. Yes, it would take time and effort to prevent sell runs, but for the health of the game it's necessary.

    Disciples of the monkey god [Apes]

  • If item selling is not allowed in lfg, and it is thriving on the 3rd party site, then raid selling should be the same. Keep lfg clear. While we are at it, allow us to reopen bosses were previously killed for the week. Keep lfg for actual lfgs.

  • Dante.1763Dante.1763 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @gebrechen.5643 said:
    These types of selling are killing games in the long run. It hurts the games economy, it hurts the player base looking for people that want to raid and work for it and it takes people out of the pool, because of the "have seen all of it" issue.
    I really don't understand why developers don't care about that. Yes, it would take time and effort to prevent sell runs, but for the health of the game it's necessary.

    Errrr...I disagree, there is a super large portion of this games playerbase that will never attempt to touch raids due to the difficulty of them(the toxicity that happens doesnt help much either). Sellers allow some of those players who still want the loot from them to get the loot they otherwise wouldnt have. If i wasnt so much of a "I want to do it myself" kinda person i woulda bought raids to get the armor myself, raids are a painful, unfun experience, and this is coming from someones whos group gets clears consistently.

    Ember Wandertooth(SB), Lucina Fallenflame(Weaver), Kianda Redpaw(Guardian), Kingslayer, Light in the Dark.
    Why Guild Wars is called Guild Wars

  • gebrechen.5643gebrechen.5643 Member ✭✭✭

    How is "getting loot" by buying it a positive thing? Everyone has the option to get some friends together and start raiding. Yes, you have to invest time for that. And the toxicity doesn't change a bit without "paid raids".
    If you want something, you work for it. If you want raid loot, you should improve your build, your gameplay and get a team together. That's why you play a mmorpg.

    Disciples of the monkey god [Apes]

  • Dante.1763Dante.1763 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 9, 2018

    @gebrechen.5643 said:
    How is "getting loot" by buying it a positive thing? Everyone has the option to get some friends together and start raiding. Yes, you have to invest time for that. And the toxicity doesn't change a bit without "paid raids".
    If you want something, you work for it. If you want raid loot, you should improve your build, your gameplay and get a team together. That's why you play a mmorpg.

    Because people who can afford to buy it obviously enjoy getting their gold from other places in the game, and spreading that wealth around with others isnt a bad thing. On top of that, i have a grand total of two friends who plays this game, outside of my family. Not everyone has large groups of friends who are interested in trying raids. Sure i have guilds, but im not "friends" with the people in them. I run in a static group one of those friends has put together, and if it wasnt for him i wouldnt ever have set foot in raids.

    Not everyone plays MMORPGS for the same reasons as you. I personally enjoy running around by myself(and i have in any MMO ive played) far more fun than i do grouped up, and the "RP" aspect of MMORPG is one of those that i enjoy the most. Raids are stressful, and frustrating, theres no fun involved(obviously my opinion) because the smallest mistake can cause a wipe when it comes to mechanics, and honestly if i had the gold id buy the runs myself to avoid all of that completely.

    @Shadowmoon.7986 said:
    If item selling is not allowed in lfg, and it is thriving on the 3rd party site, then raid selling should be the same. Keep lfg clear. While we are at it, allow us to reopen bosses were previously killed for the week. Keep lfg for actual lfgs.

    Buying an item from a third party website can get your account banned, ecspecially if its for real money, and ANET provides an ingame place to sell items to other players, its called the trading post, outside of that you assume a risk in dealing with other players and ANET wont assist you if you get scammed out of your item or gold. If Raid selling had a separate tab in the LFG tool this would be a non issue as players wouldn't see what they didn't want to.

    Ember Wandertooth(SB), Lucina Fallenflame(Weaver), Kianda Redpaw(Guardian), Kingslayer, Light in the Dark.
    Why Guild Wars is called Guild Wars

©2010–2018 ArenaNet, LLC. All rights reserved. Guild Wars, Guild Wars 2, Heart of Thorns, Guild Wars 2: Path of Fire, ArenaNet, NCSOFT, the Interlocking NC Logo, and all associated logos and designs are trademarks or registered trademarks of NCSOFT Corporation. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners.