why necromancer is one of the lowest DPS profession in the game

from the data of gw2raidar stat filter by each boss and by taking the most effective DPS build for each profession on every boss and rank them on scale 1 to 9 (1 top 9 bottom) if a profession have 2 DPS build i ll take the highest and it will be counted as 1

conclusion of the data is the global stat for all profession (highest possible score is 1 and lowest possible score is 9)1-THIEF__32-REVENANT__3.43753-ELEMENTALIST3.93754-ENGINEER____45-MESMER ____4.43756-GUARDIAN____5.56257-NECROMANCER 6.6258-WARRIOR____6.93759-RANGER____7.1875

the data for more details

NECROMANCER 6.625Encounter____rankprofession DPS / NO.1 DPSVale Guardian6__19.9/24.2Gorseval the Multifarious__5____18/21.3Sabetha the Saboteur____619.7/23.2Slothasor__817.5/23.8Matthias Gabrel5____19.6/25Keep Construct723.8/29.1Xera____615.3/18.7Cairn the Indomitable9__24.4/35.9Mursaat Overseer__9__25.7/33.2Samarog__6__14.2/16.3Deimos__8__16.7/26.8Soulless Horror____9__24.4/32.9Voice in the Void__4__13.9/16.4Conjured Amalgamate__6__35.1/46.5Twin Largos__5__17.7/25.2Qadim__7__13.9/18

ELEMENTALIST 3.9375Vale Guardian3__20.7/24.2Gorseval the Multifarious__1____21.3/21.3Sabetha the Saboteur____222.7/23.2Slothasor__123.8/23.8Matthias Gabrel9____14.6/25Keep Construct129.1/29.1Xera____217.4/18.7Cairn the Indomitable5__27.5/35.9Mursaat Overseer__3__32.6/33.2Samarog__3__15.6/16.3Deimos__4__20.8/26.8Soulless Horror____6__25.7/32.9Voice in the Void__8__13.3/16.4Conjured Amalgamate__2__43.2/46.5Twin Largos__9__NA/25.2Qadim__4__15.5/18

MESMER 4.4375Vale Guardian5__20.1/24.2Gorseval the Multifarious__7____17.6/21.3Sabetha the Saboteur____521.1/23.2Slothasor__520.4/23.8Matthias Gabrel2____22.5/25Keep Construct626.1/29Xera____416.1/18.7Cairn the Indomitable1__35.9/35.9Mursaat Overseer__7__29/33.2Samarog__5__15.4/16.3Deimos__5__20.5/26.8Soulless Horror____2__29.8/32.9Voice in the Void__2__14.4/16.4Conjured Amalgamate__9__33.1/46.5Twin Largos__1__25.2/25.2Qadim__5__14.7/18

THIEF 3Vale Guardian1__24.2/24.2Gorseval the Multifarious__2____20.9/21.3Sabetha the Saboteur____123.2/23.2Slothasor__420.6/23.8Matthias Gabrel6____19.2/25Keep Construct327.4/29Xera____118.7/18.7Cairn the Indomitable4__29.8/35.9Mursaat Overseer__2__33.1/33.2Samarog__1__16.3/16.3Deimos__1__26.8/26.8Soulless Horror____5__27.6/32.9Voice in the Void__6__13.7/16.4Conjured Amalgamate__1__46.5/46.5Twin Largos__8__17.2/25.2Qadim__2__17.4/18

ENGINEER 4Vale Guardian4__20.7/24.2Gorseval the Multifarious__4____19.3/21.3Sabetha the Saboteur____421.5/23.2Slothasor__619.8/23.8Matthias Gabrel3____20.3/25Keep Construct227.5/29Xera____515.5/18.7Cairn the Indomitable3__31.6/35.9Mursaat Overseer__5__30.2/33.2Samarog__7__13.7/16.3Deimos__3__22.7/26.8Soulless Horror____4__28.8/32.9Voice in the Void__3__14.3/16.4Conjured Amalgamate__8__33.8/46.5Twin Largos__2__20.2/25.2Qadim__1__18/18

RANGER 7.1875Vale Guardian8__18.2/24.2Gorseval the Multifarious__9____16.9/21.3Sabetha the Saboteur____918.5/23.2Slothasor__719.1/23.8Matthias Gabrel7____18.4/25Keep Construct526.3/29Xera____814.9/18.7Cairn the Indomitable8__25.7/35.9Mursaat Overseer__8__27.3/33.2Samarog__8__13.3/16.3Deimos__9__16.6/26.8Soulless Horror____8__25.2/32.9Voice in the Void__5__13.8/16.4Conjured Amalgamate__4__37.6/46.5Twin Largos__3__20/25.2Qadim__9__13.4/18

GUARDIAN 5.5625Vale Guardian2__23.9/24.2Gorseval the Multifarious__6____17.7/21.3Sabetha the Saboteur____819.1/23.2Slothasor__222.4/23.8Matthias Gabrel8____17.9/25Keep Construct426.8/29Xera____913.6/18.7Cairn the Indomitable7__26.5/35.9Mursaat Overseer__4__30.5/33.2Samarog__2__15.8/16.3Deimos__2__23.1/26.8Soulless Horror____7__25.3/32.9Voice in the Void__8__12.4/16.4Conjured Amalgamate__7__34.9/46.5Twin Largos__7__17.5/25.2Qadim__6__14.3/18

REVENANT 3.4375Vale Guardian7__18.8/24.2Gorseval the Multifarious__3____19.6/21.3Sabetha the Saboteur____321.9/23.2Slothasor__321.6/23.8Matthias Gabrel1____25/25Keep Construct921.9/29Xera____316.2/18.7Cairn the Indomitable2__33.7/35.9Mursaat Overseer__1__33.2/33.2Samarog__4__15.6/16.3Deimos__6__19.3/26.8Soulless Horror____1__32.9/32.9Voice in the Void__1__16.4/16.4Conjured Amalgamate__4__36.5/46.5Twin Largos__4__19.6/25.2Qadim__3__17.3/18

WARRIOR 6.9375Vale Guardian9__17.3/24.2Gorseval the Multifarious__8____17.4/21.3Sabetha the Saboteur____719.3/23.2Slothasor__916.2/23.8Matthias Gabrel4____19.8/25Keep Construct822.2/29Xera____714.9/18.7Cairn the Indomitable6__27.5/35.9Mursaat Overseer__6__29.8/33.2Samarog__9__12/16.3Deimos__7__16.9/26.8Soulless Horror____3__29/32.9Voice in the Void__9__12.3/16.4Conjured Amalgamate__5__35.6/46.5Twin Largos__6__17.6/25.2Qadim__8__13.5/18

What does the numbers mean on the site?

Im looking at that site now and both dragonhunter and holo have lower numbers.

Some have like 26000 next and the number after that is 41000 for instance:

Daredevil

(28,897) 41,262

yawn this is just spamming now

I think you might be just nitpicking a little.

On vale guardian:

Necros are around flat in the middle, they are above a bunch of classes including core wars, tempests, spellbreaker,s and a few others.

On gorseval scourge is quite strong

https://www.gw2raidar.com/global_stats/area-15429

its the second strongest one.

Sabetha:

Scourge second strongest support and condi.

https://www.gw2raidar.com/global_stats/area-15429

On cairn:

https://www.gw2raidar.com/global_stats/area-17194

Power reaper is 8th. above guardians soulbeast core war and tempest

Support scourge is third strongest in carn the indominable.

on mursaat

https://www.gw2raidar.com/global_stats/area-17172

Reaper is 10th place as powerscourge is 9th in condiand second in buffs.

On samarog:

https://www.gw2raidar.com/global_stats/area-17188

reaper outperforms holosmith for instance and soulbeast and is in 8th place.

On samarog: scourge seems to be second consistently.

Seems to me support scourge still pretty strong.

why necromancer is one of the lowest DPS profession in the game?

• Necromancers specs mainly favor AoE.
• Necromancers condition builds have potential in condition damage tied to corruption.
• Necromancers have a way to mitigate damage that do not prevent them from dealing damage.

These 3 answers can all explain the "why".

• Fighting against a single boss don't and shouldn't allow aoe to shine.
• Boons have little meaning on boss which are already "overbuffed" by design and even if it had meaning there wouldn't be any meaning in them producing enough boons to make boon corruption perform on it's maximum potential.
• Being able to deal damage while mitigating damage allow the profession to have a stable dps output in comparison to other professions, those profession thus need more burst to compensate which open a gap in dps as soon as the mechanics of the encounters are mastered.

Solution to the issues (these are just examples):

• Add diversity in boss encounter, for example create encounters where the raid group encounter a group of boss with that support each others and fight all at the same time.
• Make boon corruption corrupt a part of break bar into fear (just like some traits that trigger on interrupt happen to trigger with an ICD on break bar)
• Introduce a "duelist" e-spec that can't use it's damage tools while mitigating/"nullifying" damages.

But its not the lowest, its dependent on that the boss is either a large boss small boss tons of add no adds etc.Depending on those circumstances you can have better or worse results.Look at samarog: Tempest and weavers have good large target attacks, so naturally they do good.

If anything:The stats I showed above show that reaper is viable, and scourge is also really viable as a healer.

More skilled players play Necro for the challenge, so while it's still optimal, you have to put in 4x the amount of work towards it without top tier results.

I think if trained right all specs of necro have good dps, it’s the fact that it’s mobility and defensive capabilities are way behind most other specs in today’s version of the game,shroud was a decent defensive skill back in the day with a 7 sec CD and it’s damage was balanced with that in mind it seems but today with the invul,blocks and mobility handed out frequently to other professions shroud doesn’t serve as a good defensive tool as it once did, especially with the damage being thrown around these days

But yeah backline aoe spam is definitely effective in zergs if fb beside u and that’s fun for ya

@Dadnir.5038 said:why necromancer is one of the lowest DPS profession in the game?

• Necromancers specs mainly favor AoE.
• Necromancers condition builds have potential in condition damage tied to corruption.
• Necromancers have a way to mitigate damage that do not prevent them from dealing damage.

I would agree if we didnt see other professions that

• Also favor aoe but deal considerably potential higher damage while not being punished for fighting single targets as well.
• Have condition builds that ramp much faster without being tied to corruption and outshine a necros potential with perfect corruption rng
• Have ways to completely avoid damage that dont prevent them from doing damage.

So to be fair its still a question of why some parts of necro are so under tooled.

I know this is common knowledge but would like to add that much of Necromancer's core tool set is "soft CC."

Before the break-bar, which specifically includes soft CC with control effects, a large part of Necro's offensive debuff and sustain, still good in PvP, was rendered useless by the introduction of Defiance in late 2012.

• Blind
• Chill
• Cripple
• Fear
• Immobilize
• Poison (reduced healing effectiveness)
• Weakness

These conditions, whether AoE or not, are crucial to Necro viability in PvP, WvW, and on PvE mobs without Defiance.

Necromancer has lower dps because these debuffs are supposed to lower the opponent's dps below Necro's if they are not cleared.

Debuffs are almost uselesss nowadays with easy boon reapplication via boon spam,share and clears,sounds good out loud and on paper sure. Scourge aoe and barrier are only good in group setting, gets dismantled solo and that’s fine it’s good Zerg spec but for core relying on debuffs which suck and reaper melee focused spec it’s shredded by all but noobs through kiting and the crazy other melee specs with higher sustain,invulnerabilites,block and mobility

Man I just schooled that holo or Boonbeast by debuffing the crap outa him, said no one lol

What.Condiscourge is great in any encounter with adds.Reaper is probably the #1 easiest powerprofession to do well with, and due to that will outdps alot of harder professions until we starting to look for pronumbers.(probably even easier than deadeye rifle due to naturally bulky, AoE and doesnt lock the reaper down in comparison (looking at you, Kneel))

@"Psycoprophet.8107" said:Debuffs are almost uselesss nowadays with easy boon reapplication via boon spam,share and clears,sounds good out loud and on paper sure. Scourge aoe and barrier are only good in group setting, gets dismantled solo and that’s fine it’s good Zerg spec but for core relying on debuffs which suck and reaper melee focused spec it’s shredded by all but noobs through kiting and the crazy other melee specs with higher sustain,invulnerabilites,block and mobility

Pretty sure the thread is about PvE and not WvW/PvP.

Debuffs are very potent in both PvP and WvW and the necromancer always shine in WvW (maybe not "roaming" but still WvW).

The real issue of the necromancer have always been PvE, or rather "end game PvE" and, there, debuff tend to be lacklusters. Like Anchoku said, debuffs used to be even more useless in this part of the game, now at least they have some effects on the breakbar. I'd say, on the debuff part, that the reason that they aren't valued is that they both are easy to apply whatever the profession and have a less "visible" impact on the fight than boons. Swiftness let you move faster while cripple don't affect the boss mobility, quickness let you hit faster while slow don't reduce boss attack rates, alacrity reduce your cool down while chill don't reduce boss CD... etc. All those debuff do is damaging the breakbar which is up, what, maybe 20 seconds on a 5 minute boss fight (yeah I'm generous).

DeceiverX would say that the problem of the necromancer in PvE is that mobs aren't players and that ANet should not buff the necromancer but instead make a PvE environment closer to what PvP is. He is right in a lot of way and GW1 PvE was just like that, however, in the GW2's context my personnal opinion is that it's not achievable especially due to the "dodge" that players have and mobs don't.

Necros are very strong pve and debuffs are good as well if and when npc’s have boons,a lot don’t. I disagree with debuffs being useful in any pvp these days, they were yrs ago though. Necro not great end game pve especially core or reaper. Their weird in that the shine hard untill late game. I do apologize though if this was pve only I didn’t mean to derail anything

Necro deff doesn’t need pve buffs lol maybe buff in mobility but that’s it

The way I hear it is because Necromancer is the most naturally tanky class thanks to it's high health and death shroud mechanic.Even when playing glass stats it's survivability is much higher than most others.Likewise it is very easy to build the Necro into something that is able to tank a ton of damage while also still being able to put out a respectable level of damage.

It'll never be and probably should never be capable of being top tier in DPS because of that.Suits me fine though.. I love the class the way it is and don't care about outperforming others in DPS anyway.I'll take that survivability bonus any day over higher dps. ^^

if Pve yeah shroud adds good sustain, pvp it’s one of the weakest options in game and gets bursted down in sec but poster above has one of the best mindsets to approach these games lol it is a fun class

The OP is spending a lot of time collating stats which ultimately don't matter.

• Mathematically, some profession is going to be lower than others.
• Some professions will dominate in multi-target scenarios, some in single target scenarios.
• Regardless, the more important thing ends up being how well can the person run their chosen build.

In the heyday of Weavers completely dominating optimal DPS benchmarks, when my fractal static took on a PUG weaver, they were usually lowest DPS. During the same period, Necros were in worse shape than today and they were typically above average.

There's useful information to be gleaned from scouring Raidar; we just aren't seeing it here.

@"Psycoprophet.8107" said:Necros are very strong pve and debuffs are good as well if and when npc’s have boons,a lot don’t. I disagree with debuffs being useful in any pvp these days, they were yrs ago though. Necro not great end game pve especially core or reaper. Their weird in that the shine hard untill late game. I do apologize though if this was pve only I didn’t mean to derail anything

Seriously? What game are you playing?PvE: defiance/breakbar make most debuff almost useless. Mobs don't have CD on their skills so chill debuff is useless. Mobs don't heal themself so poison lose half of it's efficacity. Mobs don't dodge so weakness work at half it's potential. Slow could have no effect on mobs that you wouldn't see the difference with what it does. NPC seldom have boons.

And you think debuff are weak in WvW/PvP? Nothing make a power build player whine more than weakness. Ask a thief if he like to be slowed down. Ask players if being crippled non stop by a scourge is enjoyable. Ask reapers why their chill uptime is so low despite chill being "their" condition... etc. Maybe condi builds (as in damaging condition build) are seen as less effective in the current meta but "soft" condition (or debuffs) absolutely aren't, if anything they hurt more in a power meta than in a condi meta.

The thread show a list of PvE boss and the top dps necromancer's build performance on them compared to other professions. The thread can't be anything else than PvE.

That said, I agree with you, the necromancers don't "need" buff in PvE, they need end game PvE to be more "friendly" toward them. That's why I suggested raid's encounter to feature more than a single target at the same time. That's why I suggested that those target should buff each other instead of being naturally "overbuffed". That's why I suggested boon corruption to affect the breakbar like it would affect someone that have stability on them. And that's why I suggested that the next e-spec shouldn't have it's tools focused toward countering a god forsaken WvW meta but oriented toward a role in which the necromancer don't really shine: duellist.

I said debuffs are ok on npc in pve if they have boons which isn’t often so definitely wasn’t implying they were great and u are throwing the 2 classes at me that have shit boon spam lol one of them the class were this thread is asking for buff? debuffing any spec of mesmer, ranger,guardian,hola and even yes scourge and they will pop boons as fast as u rip them and u will lose out hard, sry but I sdisagree

I’m wrong on shit often and maybe I’m wrong on how effective debuffs are but in my own experience and from how they effect me when I’m on ranger or guard I find them a nuisance at most

OK let's go with this line of thinking.

People want high performance, so I set the filter on 99% and 90%.For fun, I pick warrior because I think warrior is a desirable class. I set filter for all raids.

Warrior is #1 for power, #4 for condi and #5 for support.As another check, I verify if warrior ranks for individual bosses are reported correctly by the OP ... and they are. NICE!

So here we are, with a class that on average does #1 in power and #4 condi DPS and has respectable #5 rank in support (whatever that is) ... yet is SECOND LAST when you look over all raid bosses in the 90% and 99% range. If I change my filters to 50% and 60%, warrior takes a MASSIVE DPS downgrade, more inline with the 8th place ranking. In fact, if you look at the top three power DPS classes, they are the last 3 classes on the ranking list provided by the OP ... so what's going on here?

Maybe (and it makes sense) that the average numbers are heavily skewed to low performances. Maybe DPS isn't the deciding factor for high performance players? That last one is speculation.

So now I look at Necro in the same way. I set my filter to 50% and 60% ... necro is about the middle power, low condi and mid support.I do the same for the filter @ 90% and 99%. It's top in power, middle in condi and middle in support.

PS ... site is annoying because it won't sort from highest to lowest.

SO the question for me is: How did the OP conclude Necro was one of the lowest DPS classes? That's not what the data says.

You know what I DO see? I DO see that Necro doesn't bring very many team buffs. Here is my hypothesis:

It's difficult for necros to get PUGs because they don't have team buffs, not because they don't have DPS.

I would prefer not giving up my survive-ability for a slight increase in DPS. I don't mind being a little behind in DPS if i can easily stand and tank most PvE content regardless of the fact it takes longer to kill it than most.