Is anet slowly moving necros away from shroud as a 2nd HP bar?

First we had Scourge where we can't 'camp in shroud' as the shroud Mechanic is gated behind a high CD and grants a much lower barrier amount compared to death/Reaper shroud.

To make up for the loss of shroud as its main form of Defence, Scourge gained many active skills that grants barrier upon use and is stackable.

Then we come to Reapers. Reaper shroud decay was nerfed and degens now at 5% per second.

In return for the drop in effectiveness of the Reaper shroud, we got more power damage. However defense and mobility wise we were not compensated.

This affects different game modes in different ways. Some are happy and some not. Some feel more defense and mobility tools need to be given in return for moving the necro away from its reliance on shroud as a 2nd HP bar.

What are your thoughts? This shift away from shroud as a 2nd HP bar, are we properly compensated defense wise?

It depends how you see it. Clearly you see the shift away as the cause of changes we see. You could also look at the shift away as the result of Anet making better differentiation between the different elites. Personally, I think the comparison between Scourge vs. non-Scourge shroud isn't really sensible; the application of LF to fuel a F skill on Scourge is a completely different concept than LF being used as a second HP bar.

As for compensation, I think Scourge needs little compensation; what was happening before was ... silly. Reaper with more compensation? That's a hard call in my book. I'm still of the opinion that non-Scourge shroud is just a poorly supported 2nd build. It's appeal depends on the uniqueness of the skills or effects from using it; I think for reaper that's done well enough.

The current state of reaper and the creation of scourge as a whole is the community getting things it asked for.

"In return for the drop in effectiveness of the Reaper shroud, we got more power damage. However defense and mobility wise we were not compensated."

I think killing anything unfortunate enough to be 300 range of you in a matter of seconds is compensation enough for reaper, that and the shear insane amount of chill and cripple it throws out means without a readily available cleanse you're easily reaped! What is dead may never d...kill you

You can still use RS to absorb hits and DS functions the same. I was a bit perplexed by the barrier change though as it seems more like they are reducing your ability to tank with shroud not removing it but you also get to spread it in some ways to allies which helps.

I think they are in some ways reducing DS tanking but it is deliberate and regardless of whether you think the implementation is correct they do give you something in return.

Anyone who knows reaper knows that when they go shroud you gtfo or you hit that block and probably still look to gtfo.

@EremiteAngel.9765 said:First we had Scourge where we can't 'camp in shroud' as the shroud Mechanic is gated behind a high CD and grants a much lower barrier amount compared to death/Reaper shroud.That's just 1 of 3 specs and I hope the next spec will have a shroud. Scourge is not a true necro spec to me. I hate its mechanic.

To make up for the loss of shroud as its main form of Defence, Scourge gained many active skills that grants barrier upon use and is stackable.That's part of the spec design as a support spec. They could also have gone full mobility for scourge, but then it would have had to be even more selflish than core and reaper.

Then we come to Reapers. Reaper shroud decay was nerfed and degens now at 5% per second.Mainly because it should smash the 30k DPS wall.

In return for the drop in effectiveness of the Reaper shroud, we got more power damage. However defense and mobility wise we were not compensated.Wrong. Spectral skills got massive baseline buffs. Walk and armor are our critical sustain skills now. And because spectral is so important now, spectral mastery outshines the former superior vital persistence. Reduced shroud skill cooldown is useless because in an onslaught build autoattacking is very reliable, destroys targets anyway, reduces shroud cooldowns too and generates life force.

What are your thoughts? This shift away from shroud as a 2nd HP bar, are we properly compensated defense wise?I vote for a mobile shroud spec in the next expansion.

@KrHome.1920 said:Scourge is not a true necro spec to me.let be real, none of the current necro specs are true necro anything. minions might as well not exist

necro in gw2 is more akin to a warlock, cancer mage or death knight than a necromancer

Only core can truly claim to be utalizing shroud as a second HP bar given it's ranged advantage and slower decay.

Reaper while it does provide in concept a second life bar just decays way too fast even when traited for maximum life force and quicker cooldowns it's just not sustainable for that long.But that's the point.. Reaper trade's shroud sustain for relentless assault potentialWhile core shroud is primarily defensive.. reaper shroud is primarily offensive.. this is a good imo and I really like them both for their usefulness.

Scourge on the other hand does away with shroud entirely which is not a change some of us particularly like in all honesty.I'm not a fan of it myself and much prefer Core and Reaper over Scourge because of shroud.

I don't think this means that every Necro elite spec from this point on is going to do away with shroud.. I think that would end up annoying a lot of players in the long run.There's plenty of potential for both in the future i'd say and i'm happy to keep swapping between shroud/no shroud specs with each release, even if I personally won't use specs without the shroud.

I'm curious as to what the next one will be.. perhaps a more healing focused spec to significantly buff Necros support/healing utility, that might be cool.Medicmancer :D

@Aktium.9506 said:

@KrHome.1920 said:Scourge is not a true necro spec to me.let be real, none of the current necro specs are true necro anything. minions might as well not exist

Necromancy does not equate to minions. Necromancy comes from the latin necromantia, which roughly means divination by means of the dead. Necromancy was a real world practice to communicate with the dead that was practiced up through the middle ages before falling out of practice after becoming irrevocably associated with demon summoning and Satanism, although modern Spiritualism is essentially a continuation of necromancy but with a rebranded image.

The only reason necromancers are associated with undead minions is because minions where the class mechanic in GW1, there isn't any other connection.

@Crinn.7864 said:The only reason necromancers are associated with undead minions is because minions where the class mechanic in GW1, there isn't any other connection.don't be stupid and post wikipedia stuff. its not relevant in the least

necromancers in video games are based on their pen and paper counterparts, which have always been mechanically based around fiddling with spooky scary skeletons

10/10 next elite spec will also be flavourless with bad animations. Anet do not have creative ideas for this class.

@"EremiteAngel.9765" said:What are your thoughts? This shift away from shroud as a 2nd HP bar, are we properly compensated defense wise?

There's nothing to compensate necro for, "2nd healthbar" is/was such a useless defense mechanism that losing the defensive part of it is a net gain/loss of 0 (very slightly exaggerated). It is by far the worst defensive mechanic in the game. I mean shroud isn't even necro's primary defense mechanic, necro's primary defense mechanic is having a support player babysit you.

Personally I would like to see the second health bar removed completely from at least RS (pref DS too) and instead of absorbing damage while in shroud convert lifeforce into health (at some sane ratio) or in some way prevent damage.

While we're on the topic being locked out from your utility skills just cause you're in your class mechanic is not okay.Not being able to receive healing from allies just because you're in your class "defense mechanic" is also not okay, imagine the uproar if warriors couldn't heal while blocking/invulnerable or mirages while evading/stealthing.

I fully expect the next elite specialization to follow Scourge's example; perhaps not with five function keys but shroud will use LF on demand rather than having functions locked behind a transform.

Having to transform to access key profession mechanics and then balance around both states was very difficult for Arenanet and the players. Remember how long it took? Plague Form was a transform, too.

As far as adding mobility and dps at a cost of sustain goes, I am not sure if that will happen. Much of Necro is designed around, and entangled with, shroud as a defense mechanism. Soft CC is also a core design principle. I expect it will be a chalange to integrate the core traits with any new elite without using typical Necro mechanics.

@Aktium.9506 said:

@Crinn.7864 said:The only reason necromancers are associated with undead minions is because minions where the class mechanic in GW1, there isn't any other connection.don't be stupid and post wikipedia stuff. its not relevant in the least

That's a very narrow definition of RPG necromancers. In most tabletop rpgs Necromancers were a specialization of the Wizard class which in turn meant that messing around with skeletons was a fraction of what they did if ever depending on the makeup of the party. The spells for Necromancer were more varied than spooky scary skeletons and had many of the same spells that Necromancer in this game has, such as curses, causing fear, making people sicker, etc etc etc. Reaper 100% would fit right in with a standard D&D campaign and no one would blink an eye and think it wasn't a Necromancer.

The idea that GW2's Necromancer doesn't fit the pen and paper counterparts is absurd considering the life of the genre and the many many books released to allow players to play one, especially in a group of mostly good PCs where summoning skeletons would likely have been frowned upon. The pen and paper concept of Necromancer is broad enough to encompass the concept of Necromancer in this game and only fails to do so when it is really narrowly defined to just one spell.

@lodjur.1284 said:

@"EremiteAngel.9765" said:What are your thoughts? This shift away from shroud as a 2nd HP bar, are we properly compensated defense wise?

So much this ^People that don’t play necro always rally against necro buffs using shroud as a reason as if it’s some amazing defensive ability when I’m reality offers reaper barely any, it’s also probably a large reason necro has zero mobility, people that play necro know this, it’s a cool mechanic but not worth how much it will hold necro back during balance discussions much like stealth does thief, but that’s another discussion

And before anyone assumes bias I’m a ranger main but I do like necro flavor

@Sigmoid.7082 said:The current state of reaper and the creation of scourge as a whole is the community getting things it asked for.

i most certainly never asked for a hard cut of spectral armor which was already by far some one of the weaker break stuns in the game granted it didn't grant damage immunity nor did it grant resistance to conditions or give evade frames or stability for that matter. In fact this is one of the worst changes they have done in a long time. Spectral armor got no love after the passive one was removed and the trait was removed implying that anet does not want us to use it because in some way or another it was far too strong.

The only spectral skills i recall being asked for was a buff to spectral wall and that was done almost directly from player community as many people suggested that it be made into a ring or a moving wall. I cant and will never understand the change and removal of the spectral mastery trait and culling spectral armors effectiveness with not compensation. Even spectral walk was some what of a nerf too because we really didnt need condition removal on that skill either. Considering its a skill you can end early you might not even get the full benefit of the condition removal and now you dont get the lf from getting hit either.

That said some of the traits are understandable and justified but the spectral mastery and the majoiry of the spectral changes no one effing asked for.

Necro is op and needs toned down more, it’s damage is moderate, has zero mobility,no good block and or invul skills,one good engage skill in reaper shroud 2 and no disengage skills, u are able to aoe spam with scourge and or be a free bag of loot.i mean cmon u guys have shroud so quit complaining:)

Sry not helping

I’ll see myself out!

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Sigmoid.7082 said:The current state of reaper and the creation of scourge as a whole is the community getting things it asked for.

Maybe you should lash out about the changes in an appropriate thread...

@Aktium.9506 said:

@Crinn.7864 said:The only reason necromancers are associated with undead minions is because minions where the class mechanic in GW1, there isn't any other connection.don't be stupid and post wikipedia stuff. its not relevant in the leastI actually knew that off the top of my head.necromancers in video games are based on their pen and paper counterparts, which have always been mechanically based around fiddling with spooky scary skeletons

Saying that GW2 design should be limited to tabletop tropes is a terrible way to approach design. Doing so is artificially constraining the game's design space. Moreover many tabletop tropes do not translate well action games. Tabletop themes do not come out so well when they are balanced by player reflex rather than dice rolls.

GW2 would do well to distance itself from tabletops, not try and emulate them.

@Teratus.2859 said:Only core can truly claim to be utalizing shroud as a second HP bar given it's ranged advantage and slower decay.

Reaper while it does provide in concept a second life bar just decays way too fast even when traited for maximum life force and quicker cooldowns it's just not sustainable for that long.But that's the point.. Reaper trade's shroud sustain for relentless assault potentialWhile core shroud is primarily defensive.. reaper shroud is primarily offensive.. this is a good imo and I really like them both for their usefulness.

Scourge on the other hand does away with shroud entirely which is not a change some of us particularly like in all honesty.I'm not a fan of it myself and much prefer Core and Reaper over Scourge because of shroud.

I don't think this means that every Necro elite spec from this point on is going to do away with shroud.. I think that would end up annoying a lot of players in the long run.There's plenty of potential for both in the future i'd say and i'm happy to keep swapping between shroud/no shroud specs with each release, even if I personally won't use specs without the shroud.

I'm curious as to what the next one will be.. perhaps a more healing focused spec to significantly buff Necros support/healing utility, that might be cool.Medicmancer :D

Isnt scourge that? I mean vampiric presence is really taken a lot in raids for healing, and scourge has a fairly strong presence in raid in support.

I would personally love if core necro was made the official condi necro that corrupts over scourge.The fact it has shroud and can be used as a defensive to stay alive means that it could perform well.

The idea of a condi spec working without a ton of sustain is just impossible, but core can range attack with shroud, and put out a few stuff, or they could make a mobile condi spec I guess that is agile, but im afraid that might be a rip off of mirage since mirage is a mobile power and condi spec that uses dodges.

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Sigmoid.7082 said:The current state of reaper and the creation of scourge as a whole is the community getting things it asked for.

I would say that @Sigmoid.7082 broader point is true, that Reaper and Scourge are responses to Necromancer players desires. One can go through any given change made to the profession and figure out which were asked for and which were not but the broader themes of these two Elites are a response to the players.

And what a response it has been lmao

@Dace.8173 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Sigmoid.7082 said:The current state of reaper and the creation of scourge as a whole is the community getting things it asked for.

That is also generally true for any class. I think it will become more clear that as more balance patches continue to be released, Anet will continue to focus effects in traitlines in this way to reinforce the intended purpose of those lines. It's not just happening in necro either. We have seen specific work overs for a handful of specs. THIS is the significant kind of changes we need to see if we are to be truly convinced that Anet is dedicated to making changes to the classes that achieve their vision of the game.

If I could sum up this patch with a word, it would be CHOICE. I now have choice to take Vital Persistence or Soul Barbs. Both are good, but both do something much different. The key is that I no longer have to feel like I'm just taking a trait because it's the best one. I can start to take traits because they are aligned with what I want to do for a build or allow me to flip them as the situation requires.