Any way to get out of gold if all I like to play is staff elementalist?? — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Any way to get out of gold if all I like to play is staff elementalist??

Swagg.9236Swagg.9236 Member ✭✭✭✭

wait nvm

  • Going sides out of the gate is meta, particularly against meta comps.
  • Staff ele has rollout possibilities unlike any other class in the game.
  • 18.5k HP means it can actually live while fighting things or while under pressure.
  • Arcane Wave is completely OP and should really be nerfed with a delay somehow.
  • Pretty sure that this was possible only because of the buff to Speed Runes.

Comments

  • reikken.4961reikken.4961 Member ✭✭✭

    rune of speed is pretty nice

  • Eddbopkins.2630Eddbopkins.2630 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Whats rollout. Never heard this term befor. Is it related to roller beatle some how?

  • OMG
    that 4:1 split on forest. I nearly spit my tea all over my monitor.
    BEST MUSIC EVA
    this vid made my day man. staff ele for life.

  • Ovark.2514Ovark.2514 Member ✭✭✭

    I love staff ele. Been playing glass tempest though lately cause it has stronger ability to survive while being just as bursty.

  • Swagg.9236Swagg.9236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Eddbopkins.2630 said:
    Whats rollout. Never heard this term befor. Is it related to roller beatle some how?

    I've put MMORPG-hours into Team Fortress 2. In the competitive 6v6 scene, a "rollout" refers to the techniques that a player uses to get to the mid fight as quickly and optimally as possible with regards to taking or contesting certain positions. I just use it out of habit because I've never heard anyone use a word for "getting to mid or home" in GW2.

  • Crinn.7864Crinn.7864 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Swagg.9236 said:

    @Eddbopkins.2630 said:
    Whats rollout. Never heard this term befor. Is it related to roller beatle some how?

    I've put MMORPG-hours into Team Fortress 2. In the competitive 6v6 scene, a "rollout" refers to the techniques that a player uses to get to the mid fight as quickly and optimally as possible with regards to taking or contesting certain positions. I just use it out of habit because I've never heard anyone use a word for "getting to mid or home" in GW2.

    Pretty sure everyone just calls it the "opening rotation"

    Sanity is for the weak minded
    YouTube

  • Swagg.9236Swagg.9236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ovark.2514 said:
    I love staff ele. Been playing glass tempest though lately cause it has stronger ability to survive while being just as bursty.

    That's kind of crazy to hear. It might just be a difference in how we try to play it since I can't imagine playing staff ele without fire-air-arcane due to all the traits which basically translate into extra survival via cooldown reduction, hard CC, movement boosts and damage threats.

    @Crinn.7864 said:

    @Swagg.9236 said:

    @Eddbopkins.2630 said:
    Whats rollout. Never heard this term befor. Is it related to roller beatle some how?

    I've put MMORPG-hours into Team Fortress 2. In the competitive 6v6 scene, a "rollout" refers to the techniques that a player uses to get to the mid fight as quickly and optimally as possible with regards to taking or contesting certain positions. I just use it out of habit because I've never heard anyone use a word for "getting to mid or home" in GW2.

    Pretty sure everyone just calls it the "opening rotation"

    I hope you can believe me when I honestly say that I've never before heard that term mentioned or used commonly. Might be due to how I don't really watch any pvpers or the fact that this video only really took like a week of footage to make.

  • Eddbopkins.2630Eddbopkins.2630 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Crinn.7864 said:

    @Swagg.9236 said:

    @Eddbopkins.2630 said:
    Whats rollout. Never heard this term befor. Is it related to roller beatle some how?

    I've put MMORPG-hours into Team Fortress 2. In the competitive 6v6 scene, a "rollout" refers to the techniques that a player uses to get to the mid fight as quickly and optimally as possible with regards to taking or contesting certain positions. I just use it out of habit because I've never heard anyone use a word for "getting to mid or home" in GW2.

    Pretty sure everyone just calls it the "opening rotation"

    Opening rotation is my choice of wording...ty

  • Swagg.9236Swagg.9236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    OMG
    that 4:1 split on forest. I nearly spit my tea all over my monitor.
    BEST MUSIC EVA
    this vid made my day man. staff ele for life.

    I have enough leftover recordings that I'll probably end up making a map-by-map side-split/midfight video. Also, forest is by far the most fun map when it comes to pre-mid meme strats. In reality, the meta comp has become increasingly slow-moving and turtle-y since the last time I really tried anything in PvP, and there isn't typically a class in any given match which is willing to challenge a surprise crossover like that (and even if it does, I just get to mid faster while wasting their time). The only true meta build that could probably keep up with a rotating staff ele is probably soulbeast with a swooping bird pet. Everything else is just too slow to react or give chase if a meta team shows up to an empty mid only to realize that they've ceded two points without a real fight. After a team that I'm on gets both sides at a match's outset, it's just full speed from empty point to empty point, supporting team fights with damage and revives, or contesting 1v1s against good match-ups.

  • Swagg sits at 1514 with a 58/45 w/l ratio. So seems viable to get into plat 1 at least. I feel like in the upper divisions you'll pull your tricks maybe once then get focused immediately going forward. But prove me wrong please. :)

  • Chilli.2976Chilli.2976 Member ✭✭✭✭

    That depends, if OCX is your prime time like myself then no not really. As most players are in gold/silver and overtime you will be dragged down to them. You can't compensate for the -X and +X as -X will always be the higher due to the MMR.

  • Swagg.9236Swagg.9236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 13, 2018

    @SteepledHat.1345 said:
    Swagg sits at 1514 with a 58/45 w/l ratio. So seems viable to get into plat 1 at least. I feel like in the upper divisions you'll pull your tricks maybe once then get focused immediately going forward. But prove me wrong please. :)

    Ultimately, and the saddest part, is that this staff ele build is effectively team-centric. Despite its clean-up damage potential and its ability to quickly revive teammates if the user is paying attention to the field, staff ele is more or less the only "support damage" build that exists in GW2. Every other build in the game is incredibly selfish and mostly self-sustaining, allowing them to function independently of each other while still stalling for point time or inflicting lethal damage. Obviously, there are the synergistic beneficiaries like the iconic FB/necro combo, but any meta build can respectively conduct its own business without any real hindrance so long as it looks at the minimap every dozen seconds and picks its easy-win match-ups properly. And honestly, what build doesn't benefit from some random FB spamming every tome on a point? Point is, "good builds" don't necessarily need cooperative or remotely self-aware teammates in order to get in a decent match opener or individual rotation pattern, but unfortunately staff elementalist does indeed greatly benefit from a mildly cohesive "team": a concept which doesn't reeeaaally exist in GW2 ranked PvP; and that reality, if anything, what will most likely be its undoing as it progresses up the ladder.

    I guess I could keep plugging at it from time to time and post results, though. The only real reason I stopped at 1500-ish was because I went and made that video while also juggling work.

  • @SteepledHat.1345 said:
    Swagg sits at 1514 with a 58/45 w/l ratio. So seems viable to get into plat 1 at least. I feel like in the upper divisions you'll pull your tricks maybe once then get focused immediately going forward. But prove me wrong please. :)

    ele is so irrelevant these days that people just assume they dont do anything except to be some hard to kill evade spammer, so nobody ever focus them except maybe only the top 100 players that actually understands the basics and have a bit of awareness of their surroundings.
    I have been in so many games where there's a single tempest (including staff ones) on enemy team but no other supports like fb and i'd put targets on them but my teammates will repeatedly change my target to a necro because the meta's rule is to focus them necros 24/7 (even if there are multiple enemy necros or the necro we're trying to focus is playing some slippery blood + flesh wurm build) and i generally play around plat1 / low plat2.

    Nobody knows how to focus FA eles either for that matter, especially when there are mirages/thieves/revs on my team.

    It is also quite common to see a rifle deadeye that is not even on a ledge kneeled ~450 range off point freecasting, but everybody is trying to focus a necro that's being sustained by a fb.

  • Master Ketsu.4569Master Ketsu.4569 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 13, 2018
  • Have been playing a bunker staff ele that gets me to plat 1, sometimes plat 2.

  • MyPuppy.8970MyPuppy.8970 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 13, 2018

    One day people will forget how to play against ele and cry for lava font nerf.

  • Delweyn.1309Delweyn.1309 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 13, 2018

    @Swagg.9236 said:
    wait nvm

    • Going sides out of the gate is meta, particularly against meta comps.
    • Staff ele has rollout possibilities unlike any other class in the game.
    • 18.5k HP means it can actually live while fighting things or while under pressure.
    • Arcane Wave is completely OP and should really be nerfed with a delay somehow.
    • Pretty sure that this was possible only because of the buff to Speed Runes.

    Big GG to people like you.

    You're going both against those stupid metas and Anet's will to not change / give some love to underperforming spe since years.

    Even if you will never reach the top, nice to see guys like you doing quite well and having fun. Need more.

    Even if Anet don't want to give some boost to those spe, player who love it and play it even with hard time will always do something great. You're the one who are right.

  • Mathias.9657Mathias.9657 Member ✭✭✭

    That video was amazing though, really refreshing lol

    MESMER MAIN SPOTTED

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Swagg.9236 said:
    wait nvm

    • Going sides out of the gate is meta, particularly against meta comps.
    • Staff ele has rollout possibilities unlike any other class in the game.
    • 18.5k HP means it can actually live while fighting things or while under pressure.
    • Arcane Wave is completely OP and should really be nerfed with a delay somehow.
    • Pretty sure that this was possible only because of the buff to Speed Runes.

    The thumbnail is on point.

    Best Dressed Memser NA.

  • Fortus.6175Fortus.6175 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 15, 2018

    I have been playing almost exclusively staff tempest since beta, with sprinkles of D/D and guard, it is my favorite build ever, specially tempest, which is an upgrade to my playstyle. Every meta I try to make staff ele work, some metas have been rougher than others, but almost always I have made it high in the rankings with it one way or another. I often get the unsavory comments on running staff, and specially since the powercreep that PoF brought to the game, where eles got the butt end of the deal.

    IMO staff ele is the staple of balance, it should be the basis that Anet should use for balancing other classes; clear strengths and weakness, windows of power and vulnerability, builds that commit you to certain roles while still doing some minor roles (unlike the one man army do it all; tank/damage/cc/wtfbbq it all holos or soulbeasts).

    Personally what I love about the specc is that it feels like you have a tool for almost any situation, it is versatile and often you have to plan in advanced how you think the fight will go so that you can properly set up your combos and attunement choices. It really does feel like a one man army even if it doesnt play that way in reality; access to healing, CC, damage and general utility which has an ebb and flow to it. It is the only weapon combo that I dont mind losing games with since even then I'm still having fun.

    Still, sw/d thieves, or thieves in general are, have always been and will always be our worst enemy....

  • sephiroth.4217sephiroth.4217 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fortus.6175 said:
    I have been playing almost exclusively staff tempest since beta, with sprinkles of D/D and guard, it is my favorite build ever, specially tempest, which is an upgrade to my playstyle. Every meta I try to make staff ele work, some metas have been rougher than others, but almost always I have made it high in the rankings with it one way or another. I often get the unsavory comments on running staff, and specially since the powercreep that PoF brought to the game, where eles got the butt end of the deal.

    IMO staff ele is the staple of balance, it should be the basis that Anet should use for balancing other classes; clear strengths and weakness, windows of power and vulnerability, builds that commit you to certain roles while still doing some minor roles (unlike the one man army do it all; tank/damage/cc/wtfbbq it all holos or soulbeasts).

    Personally what I love about the specc is that it feels like you have a tool for almost any situation, it is versatile and often you have to plan in advanced how you think the fight will go so that you can properly set up your combos and attunement choices. It really does feel like a one man army even if it doesnt play that way in reality; access to healing, CC, damage and general utility which has an ebb and flow to it. It is the only weapon combo that I dont mind losing games with since even then I'm still having fun.

    Still, sw/d thieves, or thieves in general are, have always been and will always be our worst enemy....

    Air trait line or static auras will help with thieves who run melee set ups.

    I love all elementalist players who stuck with the class through thick and thin and prove that its not as bad as most claim to be, staff and DD tempest is by far my favourite and fire/air celestial build being my new fav set up as it utilizes a lot of the tool kit well.

    Not to brag, but I put together a puzzle in 4 days and the box said 2-4 years.
    Please allow team queue with rewards again at our own discretion.
    06210311 251521 121512

  • Fortus.6175Fortus.6175 Member ✭✭✭

    @sephiroth.4217 said:

    @Fortus.6175 said:
    I have been playing almost exclusively staff tempest since beta, with sprinkles of D/D and guard, it is my favorite build ever, specially tempest, which is an upgrade to my playstyle. Every meta I try to make staff ele work, some metas have been rougher than others, but almost always I have made it high in the rankings with it one way or another. I often get the unsavory comments on running staff, and specially since the powercreep that PoF brought to the game, where eles got the butt end of the deal.

    IMO staff ele is the staple of balance, it should be the basis that Anet should use for balancing other classes; clear strengths and weakness, windows of power and vulnerability, builds that commit you to certain roles while still doing some minor roles (unlike the one man army do it all; tank/damage/cc/wtfbbq it all holos or soulbeasts).

    Personally what I love about the specc is that it feels like you have a tool for almost any situation, it is versatile and often you have to plan in advanced how you think the fight will go so that you can properly set up your combos and attunement choices. It really does feel like a one man army even if it doesnt play that way in reality; access to healing, CC, damage and general utility which has an ebb and flow to it. It is the only weapon combo that I dont mind losing games with since even then I'm still having fun.

    Still, sw/d thieves, or thieves in general are, have always been and will always be our worst enemy....

    Air trait line or static auras will help with thieves who run melee set ups.

    I love all elementalist players who stuck with the class through thick and thin and prove that its not as bad as most claim to be, staff and DD tempest is by far my favourite and fire/air celestial build being my new fav set up as it utilizes a lot of the tool kit well.

    I mean, it IS as bad as it seems, but still doesnt mean that the class isnt intrinsically fun, just that it would be NICE if the class was brought up to par to the rest of the game. I used to run that aura until it was removed recently. I was doing fire/air/tempest, sometimes air/water or air/arcane, now i had to drop air and running fire/water or water/arcane, thieves give me trouble nonetheless but thats because they are built for it; sword 2 into 3, which is unblockable and steals 2 boons, steal which is also unblockable AND steals 2 boons, and since stealing/corrupting prioritizes stability first( which we got very little access to, mostly earth armor, which is stolen), and unblockable skills goes through shields like arcane shield, there is jack-kitten you can do other than brute-force heal through it all and hope you dont get bursted to death.

  • sephiroth.4217sephiroth.4217 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 16, 2018

    @Fortus.6175 said:

    @sephiroth.4217 said:

    @Fortus.6175 said:
    I have been playing almost exclusively staff tempest since beta, with sprinkles of D/D and guard, it is my favorite build ever, specially tempest, which is an upgrade to my playstyle. Every meta I try to make staff ele work, some metas have been rougher than others, but almost always I have made it high in the rankings with it one way or another. I often get the unsavory comments on running staff, and specially since the powercreep that PoF brought to the game, where eles got the butt end of the deal.

    IMO staff ele is the staple of balance, it should be the basis that Anet should use for balancing other classes; clear strengths and weakness, windows of power and vulnerability, builds that commit you to certain roles while still doing some minor roles (unlike the one man army do it all; tank/damage/cc/wtfbbq it all holos or soulbeasts).

    Personally what I love about the specc is that it feels like you have a tool for almost any situation, it is versatile and often you have to plan in advanced how you think the fight will go so that you can properly set up your combos and attunement choices. It really does feel like a one man army even if it doesnt play that way in reality; access to healing, CC, damage and general utility which has an ebb and flow to it. It is the only weapon combo that I dont mind losing games with since even then I'm still having fun.

    Still, sw/d thieves, or thieves in general are, have always been and will always be our worst enemy....

    Air trait line or static auras will help with thieves who run melee set ups.

    I love all elementalist players who stuck with the class through thick and thin and prove that its not as bad as most claim to be, staff and DD tempest is by far my favourite and fire/air celestial build being my new fav set up as it utilizes a lot of the tool kit well.

    I mean, it IS as bad as it seems, but still doesnt mean that the class isnt intrinsically fun, just that it would be NICE if the class was brought up to par to the rest of the game. I used to run that aura until it was removed recently. I was doing fire/air/tempest, sometimes air/water or air/arcane, now i had to drop air and running fire/water or water/arcane, thieves give me trouble nonetheless but thats because they are built for it; sword 2 into 3, which is unblockable and steals 2 boons, steal which is also unblockable AND steals 2 boons, and since stealing/corrupting prioritizes stability first( which we got very little access to, mostly earth armor, which is stolen), and unblockable skills goes through shields like arcane shield, there is jack-kitten you can do other than brute-force heal through it all and hope you dont get bursted to death.

    Yea they can be troublesome, especially good ones...

    I dont think we need to be brought up to par, Im more on the other side where I would like to see some qol tweaks and some specs toned down a little..

    I mean buffs would be nice and all but I fear the class may end up in the "only won because class carried" tier and wind up with a bunch of bandwagon players..

    Not to brag, but I put together a puzzle in 4 days and the box said 2-4 years.
    Please allow team queue with rewards again at our own discretion.
    06210311 251521 121512

  • Fortus.6175Fortus.6175 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 16, 2018

    @sephiroth.4217 said:

    @Fortus.6175 said:

    @sephiroth.4217 said:

    @Fortus.6175 said:
    I have been playing almost exclusively staff tempest since beta, with sprinkles of D/D and guard, it is my favorite build ever, specially tempest, which is an upgrade to my playstyle. Every meta I try to make staff ele work, some metas have been rougher than others, but almost always I have made it high in the rankings with it one way or another. I often get the unsavory comments on running staff, and specially since the powercreep that PoF brought to the game, where eles got the butt end of the deal.

    IMO staff ele is the staple of balance, it should be the basis that Anet should use for balancing other classes; clear strengths and weakness, windows of power and vulnerability, builds that commit you to certain roles while still doing some minor roles (unlike the one man army do it all; tank/damage/cc/wtfbbq it all holos or soulbeasts).

    Personally what I love about the specc is that it feels like you have a tool for almost any situation, it is versatile and often you have to plan in advanced how you think the fight will go so that you can properly set up your combos and attunement choices. It really does feel like a one man army even if it doesnt play that way in reality; access to healing, CC, damage and general utility which has an ebb and flow to it. It is the only weapon combo that I dont mind losing games with since even then I'm still having fun.

    Still, sw/d thieves, or thieves in general are, have always been and will always be our worst enemy....

    Air trait line or static auras will help with thieves who run melee set ups.

    I love all elementalist players who stuck with the class through thick and thin and prove that its not as bad as most claim to be, staff and DD tempest is by far my favourite and fire/air celestial build being my new fav set up as it utilizes a lot of the tool kit well.

    I mean, it IS as bad as it seems, but still doesnt mean that the class isnt intrinsically fun, just that it would be NICE if the class was brought up to par to the rest of the game. I used to run that aura until it was removed recently. I was doing fire/air/tempest, sometimes air/water or air/arcane, now i had to drop air and running fire/water or water/arcane, thieves give me trouble nonetheless but thats because they are built for it; sword 2 into 3, which is unblockable and steals 2 boons, steal which is also unblockable AND steals 2 boons, and since stealing/corrupting prioritizes stability first( which we got very little access to, mostly earth armor, which is stolen), and unblockable skills goes through shields like arcane shield, there is jack-kitten you can do other than brute-force heal through it all and hope you dont get bursted to death.

    Yea they can be troublesome, especially good ones...

    I dont think we need to be brought up to par, Im more on the other side where I would like to see some qol tweaks and some specs toned down a little..

    I mean buffs would be nice and all but I fear the class may end up in the "only won because class carried" tier and wind up with a bunch of bandwagon players..

    I think it is easier to bring one class up than 8 down, otherwise you have a very pissed fan base that feels they got wronged and "brought down" to "trash" levels. The amount of people that would be unhappy would be greater than happy. Granted, it would not solve the issue of too much powercreep in HoT, but at the very least ele's would be functional in a build other than troll self-sustain far decap staller. The class fantasy is suffering, we aren't a high damage low defense class.... we are a low damage low defense high sustain via all traits/utilities class. Even FA got nerfed with the changes to baseline of lighting(granted, everyone with a similar trait got a hit, but FA relied heavily on it for damage), as well as taking tempest defense away from us.

    We are one of the most played class already (after guardian and ranger) so its understandable that people would try us in PvP when that happens, and thats ok, I dont want to be "unique", I want to be competitive. People will complain about OPs and what not, but let me ask you, when was the last time you saw an honest "Eles are OP in PvP" thread? The last and probably only time we have ever been in spotlight was D/D cele and tempest bunker in the same era as chrono and guard bunker, so it wasn't even an ele issue.

  • Swagg.9236Swagg.9236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fortus.6175 said:

    @sephiroth.4217 said:

    @Fortus.6175 said:
    I have been playing almost exclusively staff tempest since beta, with sprinkles of D/D and guard, it is my favorite build ever, specially tempest, which is an upgrade to my playstyle. Every meta I try to make staff ele work, some metas have been rougher than others, but almost always I have made it high in the rankings with it one way or another. I often get the unsavory comments on running staff, and specially since the powercreep that PoF brought to the game, where eles got the butt end of the deal.

    IMO staff ele is the staple of balance, it should be the basis that Anet should use for balancing other classes; clear strengths and weakness, windows of power and vulnerability, builds that commit you to certain roles while still doing some minor roles (unlike the one man army do it all; tank/damage/cc/wtfbbq it all holos or soulbeasts).

    Personally what I love about the specc is that it feels like you have a tool for almost any situation, it is versatile and often you have to plan in advanced how you think the fight will go so that you can properly set up your combos and attunement choices. It really does feel like a one man army even if it doesnt play that way in reality; access to healing, CC, damage and general utility which has an ebb and flow to it. It is the only weapon combo that I dont mind losing games with since even then I'm still having fun.

    Still, sw/d thieves, or thieves in general are, have always been and will always be our worst enemy....

    Air trait line or static auras will help with thieves who run melee set ups.

    I love all elementalist players who stuck with the class through thick and thin and prove that its not as bad as most claim to be, staff and DD tempest is by far my favourite and fire/air celestial build being my new fav set up as it utilizes a lot of the tool kit well.

    I mean, it IS as bad as it seems, but still doesnt mean that the class isnt intrinsically fun, just that it would be NICE if the class was brought up to par to the rest of the game. I used to run that aura until it was removed recently. I was doing fire/air/tempest, sometimes air/water or air/arcane, now i had to drop air and running fire/water or water/arcane, thieves give me trouble nonetheless but thats because they are built for it; sword 2 into 3, which is unblockable and steals 2 boons, steal which is also unblockable AND steals 2 boons, and since stealing/corrupting prioritizes stability first( which we got very little access to, mostly earth armor, which is stolen), and unblockable skills goes through shields like arcane shield, there is jack-kitten you can do other than brute-force heal through it all and hope you dont get bursted to death.

    Yeah, thieves have always been the absolute hard-counter to staff ele since launch. Considering that every consistent form of damage or CC available to staff ele comes with 1-second strike intervals and/or cast-times above 0.5s, the only real defense for the build is positioning; and since positioning is instantly compromised in GW2 by individual button presses, it makes staff ele worthless in a lot of situations unless a team can pick up some slack. If anything, playing staff ele off and on for this long has sort of enlightened me to how fundamentally flawed a lot of GW2 combat is at its core. Regardless, running maurader amulet and speed runes makes staff ele surprisingly resilient in the current meta, even against big meme spikers (so long as you bait out the meta's brainless openers and stick to cover).

    All that said, I feel like it's possible to buff staff ele (and even maybe D/D) in an interesting manner without relying too much on Chemical Anet to carry it in the same way that the meta carries itself. Basically, it just revolves around keeping offensive potential to 1-second cycles, providing some self-defense measures, some anti-meta measures and then keeping these things respectively segregated. The current "good builds" in GW2 PvP always throw damage, CC, free movement and self-preservation all into the same mixing bowl without really thinking about the consequences, turning PvP more into PvE rotation wars than any sort of thoughtful combat paradigm. It's stuff like how Burning Retreat will never be a viable offensive option or how Frozen Ground is nothing more than a potentially powerful, area-control hazard which makes either of them remotely balanced in their own respective ways. Basically, it's just a matter of increasing these flexible threats and survival elements without adding unfair elements like protracted invulnerability coupled with outgoing damage.