I still dislike Renengade — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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I still dislike Renengade

Kuulpb.5412Kuulpb.5412 Member ✭✭✭

Lorewise, It makes no sense, especially in the story, The Renegade would fit SIDING with Balthazar instead of fighting him, he is a renegade after all.

Kalla Scorchrazor's Statue has a Greatsword,
Turai Ossa was known for having a large sword, which can be a greatsword now ( Fellblade in gw1 is now a GS, Turai's sword could easily be a GS)
We went to Elona., Which is more about Turai Ossa and Palawa Joko.
Kalla Scorchrazor wasn't even the leader of the warband/group she was in, She gets orders from higher up and her Elite is Summon her Legionnaire.

Basically I am extremely Salty that I feel Anet has ignored Lore and given us a random charr for no other reason than ignorance.

Please someone prove me wrong and tell me the good reasons Revs lorewise get a Charr Renegade with a Shortbow, to fight a Renegade God, With a greatsword.

(Again, Renegade God, Greatsword, Seriously... greatsword would have made 1000000000000% more sense than Shortbow, Heck they could have made it stay kalla with a Greatsword and made it a 1200 range Greatsword that you swing to apply bleed to an enemy with ghostly claws)

Comments

  • ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 29, 2017

    The revenant only uses powers of "entities" of the mists, does not embrace its "principles".

    about greatsword, it seems that designers hate it, most classes with greatswords are in awful situation.

    main pvp: Khel the Undead(power reaper).

  • BobbyT.7192BobbyT.7192 Member ✭✭✭

    I was kinda hoping for Pyre fierceshot, He would make sense with the shortbow.

  • Kuulpb.5412Kuulpb.5412 Member ✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    So just because Kalla was a renegade of charr society at the time, and Balthazar is a rogue god, they should work together?

    Completely ignoring the fact that Kalla thrived and pushed for the motto her grandsire, Pyre, came up with: There are no gods for the charr.

    That would make more lore sense to you? Just because they're renegades they work together?

    Does that mean that revenant renegades should work with the renegade faction, that strives for war against all humans?

    I don't think you read my post correctly.

  • Kuulpb.5412Kuulpb.5412 Member ✭✭✭

    @castlemanic.3198 said:
    Right, I went over this on the gw2 reddit but might as well insert it into this convo because you're literally asking for an explanation.

    Here's the facts:

    Charr society, as a whole, is distrustful of magic.

    Rytlock, a charr, is the first revenant.

    Rytlock, during season 3, gets pulled away from the commander and is stripped of his title as tribune and, lets put it lightly, convinced to go back to the Black Citadel.

    At the beginning of Path of Fire, Rytlock returns, explicitly saying he talked to the brass about how he became a revenant. "Who am I to deny them a great tale?"

    The very first non-rytlock revenant we see is a charr who explicitly mentions Rytlock's name. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Gorea_Halfcut

    The logical conclusions:

    Rytlock convinced the top brass that revenant magic is useful and should be taught to any willing charr. He goes on to teach a few charr about revenant magic, of which Gorea Halfcut is one of them (though it's possible that Gorea is a student of Rytlock's student), because Rytlock is the only living person lore-wise with any knowledge of revenant magic.

    The conjecture:

    Rytlock more than likely first taught charr like Gorea Halfcut, who as a society are distrustful of magic, someone that they can rely on, someone that they can fully trust to 'ride shotgun' in the back of their mind without ruffling their feathers too much. That person, who happens to be one of the largest legends in Charr history, would be the renegade Kalla Scorchrazor. Also, what spellwork would charr be better accustomed to than calling upon other warband members to perform specific actions in combat. Combine that with the military leader feel of the renegade (bombardment, orders from above and heroic command) and you have the absolute most solid founding of teaching distrustful charr a new type of magic and making them feel comfortable with using it. (EDIT: also worth mentioning is how unsettling it would be for anyone to channel mallyx and shiro, so getting them comfortable with Kalla and having them realise they won't be possessed even by something as evil as mallyx would make expanding their teachings that much easier)

    At no point whatsoever, lore-wise, does a charr loyal to the legions, teaching other charr about revenant magic, have the incentive to teach them to channel some random human with a sword before teaching them to channel one of their own. Sure, thematically, tapping into the power of Turai Ossa would make sense since we're going into the desert, but lorewise (and you did ask in the lore forums), it breaks every facet of established lore and thus, a charr legend would be the only lore possibility for an elite spec at this point in time.

    As Konig also mentioned, the name 'renegade' means absolutely nothing in terms of having renegade align themselves to Balthazar or having renegades using greatswords. The reality of renegades using a shortbow more than likely falls upon design issues of too few classes and no elite specs use shortbows, and the fact that revenants have no ranged condi weapons, but lorewise charr are trained with a variety of weapons anyway, so despite her statue having a greatsword, it's not impossible or even unlikely that she used a shortbow (besides, with Gorea's dialogue it's basically canon that she preferred a shortbow).

    I have to admit, even though I dislike kalla scorchrazor being sort of "Shoved in" in my perspective, base don those facts I am less.... against it...

  • castlemanic.3198castlemanic.3198 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kuulpb.5412 said:
    I have to admit, even though I dislike kalla scorchrazor being sort of "Shoved in" in my perspective, base don those facts I am less.... against it...

    I would like to ask what further issues you have with the whole renegade/charr thing and see if I (or anyone, really) can answer those dissatisfactions.

    There is a point to consider, however, the legend being charr is a requirement, it cannot be changed by lore considerations or any conjectures, however the specific legend of Kalla Scorchrazor, I have no answer for and that rests in the hands of the designers of the class.

    Based on a bunch of feedback i've seen, the biggest issues have been 'why kalla and not pyre?' which there isn't a lore basis to answer, so i figured I may as well tackle that head on before any responses happen.

    Whataboutism is disingenuous at best. If you join a debate and provide little to no proof when the other side provides lots of evidence, you can't then declare yourself the winner of that debate. I won't engage with bad faith arguments.

  • Kuulpb.5412Kuulpb.5412 Member ✭✭✭

    @castlemanic.3198 said:

    @Kuulpb.5412 said:
    I have to admit, even though I dislike kalla scorchrazor being sort of "Shoved in" in my perspective, base don those facts I am less.... against it...

    I would like to ask what further issues you have with the whole renegade/charr thing and see if I (or anyone, really) can answer those dissatisfactions.

    There is a point to consider, however, the legend being charr is a requirement, it cannot be changed by lore considerations or any conjectures, however the specific legend of Kalla Scorchrazor, I have no answer for and that rests in the hands of the designers of the class.

    Based on a bunch of feedback i've seen, the biggest issues have been 'why kalla and not pyre?' which there isn't a lore basis to answer, so i figured I may as well tackle that head on before any responses happen.

    Well, I have no issues with charr, or a charr legend, however, In my opinion, kalla Scorchrazor would be one of the charrs who you just don't think of. You'd think of Pyre Fierceshot as previously mentioned, You'd even think of vatlaaw Doomtooth, which would obviously require more control, but both of these are Rangers, With Bows, and bows as their PRIORITY. mentioning the kalla Summoning NPC Gorea after the expansion could be argued that they added her to add a "tidbit" that said kalla preferred shortbow, so that is still an irrelevant thing, the charr rev npc is imo irrelevant to the lore as she was added AFTER kalla + shortbow was set on.

  • castlemanic.3198castlemanic.3198 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 1, 2017

    @Kuulpb.5412 said:
    Well, I have no issues with charr, or a charr legend, however, In my opinion, kalla Scorchrazor would be one of the charrs who you just don't think of. You'd think of Pyre Fierceshot as previously mentioned, You'd even think of vatlaaw Doomtooth, which would obviously require more control, but both of these are Rangers, With Bows, and bows as their PRIORITY. mentioning the kalla Summoning NPC Gorea after the expansion could be argued that they added her to add a "tidbit" that said kalla preferred shortbow, so that is still an irrelevant thing, the charr rev npc is imo irrelevant to the lore as she was added AFTER kalla + shortbow was set on.

    Except that's from a players perspective, and specifically a Guild Wars player. In GW2 we have a statue of Kalla Scorchrazor who, back in 2012, at the release of the game, was large enough as a character to have her own legend and be so great as to be forever remembered as an inspiration to all of the united legions of the charr. To consider her, lorewise, as someone "who you just don't think of" is ignoring lore that's been established for years. It's a really good thing that the devs don't only consider pulling from GW1 characters and they SHOULD pull from any character in guild wars history, because there's more to the story now than just what was established in the previous game.

    I do admit that Gorea's dialogue was more than likely a justification of giving renegade a shortbow rather than something of any established lore, but again it's not impossible nor unlikely that Kalla could have used a bow considering how the charr are raised. On top of that, Pyre Firceshot IS her grandfather, making it at least a possibility she turned to her lineage for combat training. The statue is, ultimately, a statue, and just as we learn throughout all of Elona, artwork doesn't necessarily depict the whole truth. On top of that, there is another person Kalla could have turned to for learning how to wield a bow:

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Statue_of_Violo_Raptorgaze

    Meet Violo Raptorgaze, who also has a statue in the same area as Kalla Scorchrazor. Unlike Kalla's statue (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Statue_of_Kalla_Scorchrazor), Violo's statue specifically states she was good with a longbow, whereas Kalla's statue bears no information of what weapon she wielded in writing. Yes, her statue wields a greatsword, but just like imperfect statues are erected, some are made with the idea of what looks cooler. On top of that, as noted in the statue's description, Kalla recruited Violo, meaning she had every opportunity to learn how to wield a bow from two expert marksman. Most of that is conjecture, but it's not even vaguely unlikely that she had training with a bow. (EDIT: Also worth noting is that Violo is not the only statue to specify which weapon a charr was good at using. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Statue_of_Ofela_Soulcleave mentions axes, single and dual wielded, https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Statue_of_Boles_Deathrain mentioned a bow as well)

    What's more, a lore reason why Kalla could have been chosen over Pyre, Vatlaaw (though WHY would any charr call upon a charr loyal to the flame legion?) or any other gw1 charr is that she pulled off a feat rarely accomplished: she united three legions into one singular purpose. While she was blood legion, her loyalty was to charr, not to any one legion, and even went so far as to accept the surrender of the flame legion. She was unbiased in her goal to lead female charr to freedom, which helps make her a 'politically correct' choice in terms of what charr legend could be used.

    It's unfortunate that the choice of Kalla isn't further explored in game and that we have to go through all this conjecture to validate the choice, but there are legitimate lore reasons as to why Kalla can and should be chosen, if one chooses to look in the right places.

    Whataboutism is disingenuous at best. If you join a debate and provide little to no proof when the other side provides lots of evidence, you can't then declare yourself the winner of that debate. I won't engage with bad faith arguments.

  • Kuulpb.5412Kuulpb.5412 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 1, 2017

    I do have two... strange... questions...

    ONE - During the PoF story, when disguised in beasts of War [SPOILER] - Rytlock hands you Sohothin, and He then Holds a Greatsword, and not a shortbow, why? It really annoys me, Kalla's statue - GS, Rytlock in PoF - GS, Balthazar - GS, Renegade - Shortbow. (Seriously, the ONLY mention is by an NPC put in AFTER They thought of shortbow, yes You can talk about statues, but don't forget there were 5 bows types in GW1, and we don't know when it shifted to 2, meaning mentioning " a bow" on statues could be... a Flatbow, for all we know, to "snipe" people.

    TWO - (A Question that has basically nothing to do with the topic)

    How does one "Teach" someone to be a revenant?
    Warriors I get - you hit things,
    Engineers I get - you shoot things.
    the rest have to have ( I think) Some magical aptitude, even a minute amount that can be grown, yet there is no "mist magic" people are born with.

    GW1 Wiki page states there are 4 schools of magic - Preservation, Destruction, Aggression, Denial.

    You can say Rangers and Guardians specialise in preservation - (Nature preservation and Ally Preservation)
    Necromancers, Warriors, and Engineers would focus on Aggression, (Pressure of Conditions or Minions, Brute Force/ Leading an Army, or An Army of Turrets)
    Mesmers would be Denial
    Thieves would be Destruction,
    With Elementalists taking from a different school every attunement.

    the GW2 wiki page states magic is like energy, with there being light energy, dark energy and chaos energy, with Taimi's tests with spencer showing that magic is a spectrum, most likely the Death, Ice, Fire, Mind, Air and .... whatever Steve is. (until it's confirmed this is speculation), but I would assume that the Magics are the 4 elementalist attributes, Death and Life, none of which are connected to the mists directly. Unless Rytlock is somehow able to teach people to interact with the mists, without being in the mists, then it's a bit of a strange thing, as he states Glint taught him the ways of the revenant, but they were inside the mists, so it would be very "Easy" for him to learn to use the mists all around him.

    Edit; before you mention anything about Revenants and Ritualists being similar and similar magic - Wiki states - Canthan ritualists were able to channel power from the spirits of their ancestors, which resembled true magic but was not the same thing. Ritualist tradition eventually became associated with Grenth and, after the Exodus, acquired magical components. - this resembled true magic but was not the same thing, which to me (correct me if I'm wrong), says that Ritualist "Magic" is not "Magic" but some other form of power, Now we could argue that Rytlock's "Magic" is not Magic but this other form of power, however can only state what we "know" which is Rytlock calls it magic, and that technically Glint never met a Ritualist if we go by the fact we go to glint's lair by ascending, which wa sin prophecies which I think story wise is after prophecies, meaning there would be no reason for a Ritualist to go to visit glint, the likely hood of that, since in Cantha they already have Weh No Su, is really low.

  • castlemanic.3198castlemanic.3198 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kuulpb.5412 said:
    I do have two... strange... questions...

    ONE - During the PoF story, when disguised in beasts of War [SPOILER] - Rytlock hands you Sohothin, and He then Holds a Greatsword, and not a shortbow, why? It really annoys me, Kalla's statue - GS, Rytlock in PoF - GS, Balthazar - GS, Renegade - Shortbow. (Seriously, the ONLY mention is by an NPC put in AFTER They thought of shortbow, yes You can talk about statues, but don't forget there were 5 bows types in GW1, and we don't know when it shifted to 2, meaning mentioning " a bow" on statues could be... a Flatbow, for all we know, to "snipe" people.

    Rytlock's weapon was the ENTIRE REASON he became a revenant. Sohothin, a human sword, was Rytlocks weapon of choice since 2012. It's his primary weapon, so why would he change that? Rytlock also wields the sword as a one handed sword, not a greatsword (in 2012 rytlock always carried around a pistol in his offhand, which you can see in any dungeon that you play with rytlock in, as well as relevant personal story missions, thus proving he's always wielded it one handed, not just since heart of thorns). Also, Sohothin is Prince Rurik's sword which, in GW1, he used as a one handed sword with a shield in the other hand. (here's a link to an image found on google: http://images.mmorpg.com/images/galleries/formatted/092011/ccb8a995-1d0b-41e5-8fe9-705f30ae68b1.jpg)

    AKA, the fact that we wield Sohothin as a two handed sword has no significance on anything to do with renegade. We also don't see what weapon Rytlock uses because he immediately leaves after giving you Sohothin.

    Also worthy of noting is that guns did not exist in GW1, and spears were one handed thrown weapons on land, they're 2 handed weapons underwater in GW2 (though technically they're harpoons, many are still called spears). Things change, and I see absolutely 0 reason why you'd bring up there were 5 types of bows in Guild Wars. It has no impact on your argument, no merit in this discussion and adds nothing to the table. I'm curious what you were trying to prove there.

    TWO - (A Question that has basically nothing to do with the topic)

    How does one "Teach" someone to be a revenant?
    Warriors I get - you hit things,
    Engineers I get - you shoot things.
    the rest have to have ( I think) Some magical aptitude, even a minute amount that can be grown, yet there is no "mist magic" people are born with.

    GW1 Wiki page states there are 4 schools of magic - Preservation, Destruction, Aggression, Denial.

    You can say Rangers and Guardians specialise in preservation - (Nature preservation and Ally Preservation)
    Necromancers, Warriors, and Engineers would focus on Aggression, (Pressure of Conditions or Minions, Brute Force/ Leading an Army, or An Army of Turrets)
    Mesmers would be Denial
    Thieves would be Destruction,
    With Elementalists taking from a different school every attunement.

    the GW2 wiki page states magic is like energy, with there being light energy, dark energy and chaos energy, with Taimi's tests with spencer showing that magic is a spectrum, most likely the Death, Ice, Fire, Mind, Air and .... whatever Steve is. (until it's confirmed this is speculation), but I would assume that the Magics are the 4 elementalist attributes, Death and Life, none of which are connected to the mists directly. Unless Rytlock is somehow able to teach people to interact with the mists, without being in the mists, then it's a bit of a strange thing, as he states Glint taught him the ways of the revenant, but they were inside the mists, so it would be very "Easy" for him to learn to use the mists all around him.

    Edit; before you mention anything about Revenants and Ritualists being similar and similar magic - Wiki states - Canthan ritualists were able to channel power from the spirits of their ancestors, which resembled true magic but was not the same thing. Ritualist tradition eventually became associated with Grenth and, after the Exodus, acquired magical components. - this resembled true magic but was not the same thing, which to me (correct me if I'm wrong), says that Ritualist "Magic" is not "Magic" but some other form of power, Now we could argue that Rytlock's "Magic" is not Magic but this other form of power, however can only state what we "know" which is Rytlock calls it magic, and that technically Glint never met a Ritualist if we go by the fact we go to glint's lair by ascending, which wa sin prophecies which I think story wise is after prophecies, meaning there would be no reason for a Ritualist to go to visit glint, the likely hood of that, since in Cantha they already have Weh No Su, is really low.

    You've apparently missed a ton of lore that has to do with magic, that was actually IN THE ARTICLE YOU QUOTED FROM. I'm surprised, but let me highlight everything that you seemed to miss:

    "Almost every being in Tyria has access to magic in some way or another, and there are countless ways of utilising that magic. For example, some learn magic from teachers or mentors, and others, like the Zephyrites, also utilize artifacts to channel their powers. Some even go it alone, developing their own style and relationship with magic. Most creatures are able to use magic from a very young age - humans and norn will cast their first spells in the home, under the supervision of their parents, and most charr will hone their ability in the fahrar, and magic can first manifest as a survival mechanism of even a toddler. Greater magical talent must be honed in early age because uncontrolled magic of even a novice can cause terrible destruction.[1]

    An individual's innate magical ability seems to be determined, in part at least, by their location in relation to the ley lines that channel magic around the world.[1] In the Orrian History Scrolls, an unknown Ascalonian author expresses shock at the casual way with which magic was viewed by the citizens of Orr, which is now known to be a place of extremely high magic concentration. Magical aptitude can also be inherited from a child's parents.

    Historically, magic was separated into four distinct "schools": Preservation, Aggression, Destruction, and Denial, and most magic users fell squarely into one of these. Over time, these schools came to be seen as limiting and unfashionable, and only the most ancient magic users still adhere to them. Still, it is very difficult to master more than one form of magic, and most users tend to aim to become highly specialized rather than only moderately proficient in many of the schools and the risk of magic becoming uncontrollable becomes greater the more one practices different forms of magic together.[2] Long before the arrival of humans on the northern continent, Canthan ritualists were able to channel power from the spirits of their ancestors, which resembled true magic but was not the same thing. Ritualist tradition eventually became associated with Grenth and, after the Exodus, acquired magical components.

    Unsurprisingly, it is possible to infuse objects with magical energy, and in fact much of asura society depends upon this principle. Signets are special tablets, first developed by powerful Orrian wizards, that are able to hold magical spells for use by individuals otherwise unskilled in the use of magic. "

    It's unfortunate for you, since you seemingly also quoted some of this article to make your point, while ignoring the rest of it that answered your questions. As for the ritualists part, well:

    " Through their spirits, the Ritualists were able to practice magic, or something close to it. When magic was granted by the gods, many of the original abilities were strengthened and merged into their modern form."

    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Ritualist

    AKA their power became infused with magic, so it's entirely accurate to portray revenant abilities as 'magic', and as such, can be taught. But there's another flaw in your argument in that for ritualists to have existed for so long and so many generations, they had to have taught someone else ritualist traditions, meaning it can be passed down. What's more, Glint was in the mists after her death when Rytlock met her, aka she has not only every opportunity to meet a ritualist and teach Rytlock stuff based off of it, but also Glint has direct access to the mists, giving her a better understanding of it than any living being. as Glint was not in the domain of the lost, we can assume she was in another part of the mists unassociated with the underworld, and being a benevolent dragon of great power (though not as great as an elder dragon) means she presumably has the means of understanding the mists and bestowing that knowledge onto another.

    You also have a huge flaw in your argument that no magic is 'connected to the mists' since according to the gw2 wiki: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Mists

    "The Mists is the oldest thing in existence, the proto-reality that exists between the worlds, constituting the fabric of time and space that connects the multiverse together. Within the Mists are worlds (of which Tyria is just one), each with their own realities and histories, floating as islands in the ether."

    AKA everything is technically connected to the mists.

    And if you're not convinced by the GW2 wiki, then I present to you the GW1 wiki: https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/The_Mists

    "Before there were humans or dwarves, before there were even worlds or the stars that light the night sky, there was but one thing in the universe—the Mists. The Mists touch all things. They are what binds the universe together, past, present, and future. They are the source of all good and evil, of all matter and knowledge. It is said that all forms of life, no matter how simple or complex, can trace their origins back to this one place."

    AKA everything is technically connected to the mists.

    Whataboutism is disingenuous at best. If you join a debate and provide little to no proof when the other side provides lots of evidence, you can't then declare yourself the winner of that debate. I won't engage with bad faith arguments.

  • Kuulpb.5412Kuulpb.5412 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 1, 2017

    @castlemanic.3198 said:

    @Kuulpb.5412 said:
    I do have two... strange... questions...

    ONE - During the PoF story, when disguised in beasts of War [SPOILER] - Rytlock hands you Sohothin, and He then Holds a Greatsword, and not a shortbow, why? It really annoys me, Kalla's statue - GS, Rytlock in PoF - GS, Balthazar - GS, Renegade - Shortbow. (Seriously, the ONLY mention is by an NPC put in AFTER They thought of shortbow, yes You can talk about statues, but don't forget there were 5 bows types in GW1, and we don't know when it shifted to 2, meaning mentioning " a bow" on statues could be... a Flatbow, for all we know, to "snipe" people.

    Rytlock's weapon was the ENTIRE REASON he became a revenant. Sohothin, a human sword, was Rytlocks weapon of choice since 2012. It's his primary weapon, so why would he change that? Rytlock also wields the sword as a one handed sword, not a greatsword >

    • No I said - AFTER YOU GET SOHOTHIN - Rytlock Holds a greatsword.

    Edit: No he does not "Immediately leave" you learly see him with an Adamant Guard Greatsword as he enters kasmeer's portal, replay the story and look at him.

    https://imgur.com/a/lzYIY

    I can't figure out how pictures work on this forum.

  • Kuulpb.5412Kuulpb.5412 Member ✭✭✭

    ALSO -
    Yes I read the page entirely, however just being connected does not mean you can access it - EVERYONE is connected to Leylines, EVERYONE is connected to magic, yet where is our ley line magic? Plus again - the mists existing and interacting with everything doesn't mean you can harness it. So My argument stands that Rytlock while in the mists had a MUCH easier time than everyone outside it.

    2 - the "Innate magic" yes I was wrong... slightly, it does mention innate magic on that page, In places such as orr you would see more mages than Warriors, which enforces the idea that Warriors use less magic than Mages, which in turn would help prove that just existing wouldn't mean you can become a revenant. orr is a very magical place, so had very magical people - mages, while Ascalon had les smagic, so had more warriors, such as Duke barradin, King Adelbern and prince Rurik.

  • castlemanic.3198castlemanic.3198 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kuulpb.5412 said:

    @castlemanic.3198 said:

    @Kuulpb.5412 said:
    I do have two... strange... questions...

    ONE - During the PoF story, when disguised in beasts of War [SPOILER] - Rytlock hands you Sohothin, and He then Holds a Greatsword, and not a shortbow, why? It really annoys me, Kalla's statue - GS, Rytlock in PoF - GS, Balthazar - GS, Renegade - Shortbow. (Seriously, the ONLY mention is by an NPC put in AFTER They thought of shortbow, yes You can talk about statues, but don't forget there were 5 bows types in GW1, and we don't know when it shifted to 2, meaning mentioning " a bow" on statues could be... a Flatbow, for all we know, to "snipe" people.

    Rytlock's weapon was the ENTIRE REASON he became a revenant. Sohothin, a human sword, was Rytlocks weapon of choice since 2012. It's his primary weapon, so why would he change that? Rytlock also wields the sword as a one handed sword, not a greatsword >

    • No I said - AFTER YOU GET SOHOTHIN - Rytlock Holds a greatsword.

    Edit: No he does not "Immediately leave" you learly see him with an Adamant Guard Greatsword as he enters kasmeer's portal, replay the story and look at him.


    at around 3:50 you can see Rytlock wielding that weapon in two hands, so yeah, in that single instance I was wrong. The point still stands however in that Rytlock has always used Sohothin as a one handed sword. Rytlock should also not be confined to the elite spec of 'renegade' as we are forced to choose between one or the other. In actuality, Rytlock is more than likely both at the same time, a feat we cannot accomplish because gameplay in this case comes before lore. On top of that, Rytlock since 2012 has always used Sohothin as a sword, a one handed sword, there is only a single scenario where Rytlock would trade his sword for another weapon, and that is the moment he gave you the sword to finish off Balthazar, which btw he gets back after you kill Balthazar, making the point stand: Rytlock has and will forever use Sohothin as a one handed sword, why would he give up that magical blade that he's been using for literally years for a bow? It makes no sense, especially a weapon as powerful and as ancient as Sohothin, just because he taught some charr how to be renegades?

    Whataboutism is disingenuous at best. If you join a debate and provide little to no proof when the other side provides lots of evidence, you can't then declare yourself the winner of that debate. I won't engage with bad faith arguments.

  • Kuulpb.5412Kuulpb.5412 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 1, 2017

    I'm arguing that Rytlock as a Revenant should not be wielding a Greatsword, As he is not channeling Any legend we cannot determine who or what (if anything) he is channeling. Sohothin is irrelevant in this case, as Sohothin is a one handed sword yes, but again - it's irrelevant, I never EVER stated Sohothin was wielded in two hands.

  • @castlemanic.3198 said:
    What's more, a lore reason why Kalla could have been chosen over Pyre, Vatlaaw (though WHY would any charr call upon a charr loyal to the flame legion?) or any other gw1 charr is that she pulled off a feat rarely accomplished: she united three legions into one singular purpose. While she was blood legion, her loyalty was to charr, not to any one legion, and even went so far as to accept the surrender of the flame legion. She was unbiased in her goal to lead female charr to freedom, which helps make her a 'politically correct' choice in terms of what charr legend could be used.

    This just makes me think that if Kalla had lived, she could have been declared Khan-Ur easily just from this feat. This is of course assuming she was part of the bloodline of the Khan-Ur anyway, it's never specified whether she was or not. Or if the high legions were willing to throw the bloodline requirement out the window for their greatest hero.

  • Aaron Ansari.1604Aaron Ansari.1604 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 1, 2017

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/hidden-arcana-role-playing-the-revenant/

    "[Rytlock] brought the knowledge of how to obtain that power to the world of Tyria, making it somewhat common knowledge... a brand-new revenant starting on their journey will not have had to visit the Mists or undergo any more of an advanced process to access revenant powers than they would for the other core professions. All that’s necessary to begin training as a revenant is knowledge of the profession, the faith and will to reach into the Mists, and an open mind." Emphasis mine, but you get the point. Word of Dev is that if you know how, drawing magic from the Mists isn't any more difficult than drawing magic from Tyria. Sure, being able to start training isn't the same as having the natural aptitude to accomplish great things with it, but that's just as true for non-magical pursuits as well.

    R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

  • Kuulpb.5412Kuulpb.5412 Member ✭✭✭

    @Aaron Ansari.1604 said:
    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/hidden-arcana-role-playing-the-revenant/

    "[Rytlock] brought the knowledge of how to obtain that power to the world of Tyria, making it somewhat common knowledge... a brand-new revenant starting on their journey will not have had to visit the Mists or undergo any more of an advanced process to access revenant powers than they would for the other core professions. All that’s necessary to begin training as a revenant is knowledge of the profession, the faith and will to reach into the Mists, and an open mind." Emphasis mine, but you get the point. Word of Dev is that if you know how, drawing magic from the Mists isn't any more difficult than drawing magic from Tyria. Sure, being able to start training isn't the same as having the natural aptitude to accomplish great things with it, but that's just as true for non-magical pursuits as well.

    Sigh.. I suppose... However, if being a Revenant is Common knowledge, why are so few charr NPCs revenants? Thieves have magic and many charr are thieves still.

  • castlemanic.3198castlemanic.3198 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kuulpb.5412 said:
    ALSO -
    Yes I read the page entirely, however just being connected does not mean you can access it - EVERYONE is connected to Leylines, EVERYONE is connected to magic, yet where is our ley line magic? Plus again - the mists existing and interacting with everything doesn't mean you can harness it. So My argument stands that Rytlock while in the mists had a MUCH easier time than everyone outside it.

    2 - the "Innate magic" yes I was wrong... slightly, it does mention innate magic on that page, In places such as orr you would see more mages than Warriors, which enforces the idea that Warriors use less magic than Mages, which in turn would help prove that just existing wouldn't mean you can become a revenant. orr is a very magical place, so had very magical people - mages, while Ascalon had les smagic, so had more warriors, such as Duke barradin, King Adelbern and prince Rurik.

    1. Then you seemingly misunderstand what was written. Everyone is NOT connected to ley lines because ley lines don't make up the entire reality like the mists do, there's no equivalence between the very foundation of reality itself and magical currents which are only a portion of reality, there's no argument or discussion to be had about this. You also, at NO point, have EVER mentioned 'ease of access'. All you've done is talk about accessing revenant magic, not the ease of access. Besides, this was addressed before heart of thorns even launched:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/hidden-arcana-role-playing-the-revenant/

    "There’s no profession-specific story content planned for the expansion, but a brand-new revenant starting on their journey will not have had to visit the Mists or undergo any more of an advanced process to access revenant powers than they would for the other core professions. All that’s necessary to begin training as a revenant is knowledge of the profession, the faith and will to reach into the Mists, and an open mind."

    1. Except there's warriors and spellcasters in every corner of the world. Just as the roleplaying the revenant article officially published by arenanet devs btw says it's no more difficult to access than any other profession. Why that is, we have no answer to as of yet, but let's also consider the fact that even before humans had magic, ritualists existed, meaning it's not that difficult to use the mists. None of your points stand.

    @Kuulpb.5412 said:
    I'm arguing that Rytlock as a Revenant should not be wielding a Greatsword, As he is not channeling Any legend we cannot determine who or what (if anything) he is channeling. Sohothin is irrelevant in this case, as Sohothin is a one handed sword yes, but again - it's irrelevant, I never EVER stated Sohothin was wielded in two hands.

    Warriors can't wield pistols, yet Rytlock has been wielding a pistol in his offhand since 2012 as a warrior until he became a revenant. We've also seen ghosts in ascalon dual wielding scepters, mesmer like illusions wielding bows and bandits wielding a pistol in one hand and a torch in the offhand, which no class is capable off. At no point in time has Arenanet confined npcs to wielding weapons in a fashion that only player characters can wield, thus your point is moot. But also, lets consider the point you started off with:

    @Kuulpb.5412 said:

    I do have two... strange... questions...
    ONE - During the PoF story, when disguised in beasts of War [SPOILER] - Rytlock hands you Sohothin, and He then Holds a Greatsword, and not a shortbow, why? It really annoys me, Kalla's statue - GS, Rytlock in PoF - GS, Balthazar - GS, Renegade - Shortbow. (Seriously, the ONLY mention is by an NPC put in AFTER They thought of shortbow, yes You can talk about statues, but don't forget there were 5 bows types in GW1, and we don't know when it shifted to 2, meaning mentioning " a bow" on statues could be... a Flatbow, for all we know, to "snipe" people.

    Your point, originally, as quoted, was about why Rytlock used a greatsword INSTEAD of a shortbow. It's right there, undeniably so, and I addressed that by stating that Rytlock has been using a sword for all these years, why would he switch to a shortbow now? I don't have an answer for why he's wielding a greatsword instead of a one handed sword because that seems more like a dev mistake than anything else, but your original point was entirely about why greatsword and not shortbow, and I've already shown you how Kalla could have learned how to use a bow effectively.

    Whataboutism is disingenuous at best. If you join a debate and provide little to no proof when the other side provides lots of evidence, you can't then declare yourself the winner of that debate. I won't engage with bad faith arguments.

  • castlemanic.3198castlemanic.3198 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kuulpb.5412 said:

    @Aaron Ansari.1604 said:
    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/hidden-arcana-role-playing-the-revenant/

    "[Rytlock] brought the knowledge of how to obtain that power to the world of Tyria, making it somewhat common knowledge... a brand-new revenant starting on their journey will not have had to visit the Mists or undergo any more of an advanced process to access revenant powers than they would for the other core professions. All that’s necessary to begin training as a revenant is knowledge of the profession, the faith and will to reach into the Mists, and an open mind." Emphasis mine, but you get the point. Word of Dev is that if you know how, drawing magic from the Mists isn't any more difficult than drawing magic from Tyria. Sure, being able to start training isn't the same as having the natural aptitude to accomplish great things with it, but that's just as true for non-magical pursuits as well.

    Sigh.. I suppose... However, if being a Revenant is Common knowledge, why are so few charr NPCs revenants? Thieves have magic and many charr are thieves still.

    This is where the devs screwed themselves over lore-wise. Throughout Heart of Thorns, Rytlock, the first revenant, has had no time to teach anyone revenant magic. In season 3, he gets pulled away to discuss revenant magic and by the time path of fire arrives, he's done teaching and comes back. Thus, as far as in game lore happens, there are only very few charr revenants because Rytlock has taught most or all of them (as far as conjecture goes). The devs messed up here, and this inconsistency will linger, but it seems like he's only now teaching charr about revenant magic, as timeline wise this is the only point in time he's been able to do so and that's what the devs are aiming for.

    Whataboutism is disingenuous at best. If you join a debate and provide little to no proof when the other side provides lots of evidence, you can't then declare yourself the winner of that debate. I won't engage with bad faith arguments.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @castlemanic.3198 said:
    I do admit that Gorea's dialogue was more than likely a justification of giving renegade a shortbow rather than something of any established lore, but again it's not impossible nor unlikely that Kalla could have used a bow considering how the charr are raised. On top of that, Pyre Firceshot IS her grandfather, making it at least a possibility she turned to her lineage for combat training. The statue is, ultimately, a statue, and just as we learn throughout all of Elona, artwork doesn't necessarily depict the whole truth. On top of that, there is another person Kalla could have turned to for learning how to wield a bow:

    Characters can also have multiple favoured weapons. Kalla might have preferred the shortbow for ranged combat and the greatsword for melee. This would fit if she's a ranger, or just on the general principle that NPCs are not limited to the weapons choices of PCs.

    @Kuulpb.5412 said:
    GW1 Wiki page states there are 4 schools of magic - Preservation, Destruction, Aggression, Denial.

    You can say Rangers and Guardians specialise in preservation - (Nature preservation and Ally Preservation)
    Necromancers, Warriors, and Engineers would focus on Aggression, (Pressure of Conditions or Minions, Brute Force/ Leading an Army, or An Army of Turrets)
    Mesmers would be Denial
    Thieves would be Destruction,
    With Elementalists taking from a different school every attunement.

    We were actually told in one of the pre-release versions of the elementalist page that Elementalists were Destruction.

    The concept of the four schools was used in the original Guild Wars to explain why magic was divided into four professions - Monks, Necromancers, Mesmers and Elementalists. The generally accepted distribution is that monks were Preservation (and guardians after them), necromancers Aggression, mesmers Denial, and elementalists Destruction.

    With respect to Guild Wars 2 professions, thief magic appears to be closest to mesmers and rangers to elementalists (elite specialisations notwithstanding), making them likely to be Denial and Destruction respectively, if they fit within the schools at all. (It's worth noting that the schools no longer restrict magic the way they once did).

    Revenants come from outside the schools entirely - their power comes from the Mists, not Tyrian magic.

    How they learn to access it... is a good question. I'd imagine there's a bit of training of how to learn to safely tap into a legend and maintain control, and then the legend itself teaches the revenant how to use its powers.

    @Kuulpb.5412 said:
    I'm arguing that Rytlock as a Revenant should not be wielding a Greatsword, As he is not channeling Any legend we cannot determine who or what (if anything) he is channeling. Sohothin is irrelevant in this case, as Sohothin is a one handed sword yes, but again - it's irrelevant, I never EVER stated Sohothin was wielded in two hands.

    Rytlock may simply be falling back on his warrior training. As noted above, NPCs aren't restricted to the same weapon choices PCs are. As a warrior, Rytlock used a pistol in his off hand...

    Or he may have access to a legend we don't yet!

    @castlemanic.3198 said:

    @Kuulpb.5412 said:

    @Aaron Ansari.1604 said:
    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/hidden-arcana-role-playing-the-revenant/

    "[Rytlock] brought the knowledge of how to obtain that power to the world of Tyria, making it somewhat common knowledge... a brand-new revenant starting on their journey will not have had to visit the Mists or undergo any more of an advanced process to access revenant powers than they would for the other core professions. All that’s necessary to begin training as a revenant is knowledge of the profession, the faith and will to reach into the Mists, and an open mind." Emphasis mine, but you get the point. Word of Dev is that if you know how, drawing magic from the Mists isn't any more difficult than drawing magic from Tyria. Sure, being able to start training isn't the same as having the natural aptitude to accomplish great things with it, but that's just as true for non-magical pursuits as well.

    Sigh.. I suppose... However, if being a Revenant is Common knowledge, why are so few charr NPCs revenants? Thieves have magic and many charr are thieves still.

    This is where the devs screwed themselves over lore-wise. Throughout Heart of Thorns, Rytlock, the first revenant, has had no time to teach anyone revenant magic. In season 3, he gets pulled away to discuss revenant magic and by the time path of fire arrives, he's done teaching and comes back. Thus, as far as in game lore happens, there are only very few charr revenants because Rytlock has taught most or all of them (as far as conjecture goes). The devs messed up here, and this inconsistency will linger, but it seems like he's only now teaching charr about revenant magic, as timeline wise this is the only point in time he's been able to do so and that's what the devs are aiming for.

    As an additional note:

    There may be few revenants still period. We're told that it doesn't take a lot to begin learning the revenant profession, but it's only been around for a couple of years and knowledge is probably not actually spreading that quickly. It wouldn't surprise me if, at this point in time, it's not widely known outside the Pact and the charr that Rytlock has apparently taught.

    (It's worth noting, incidentally, that it may well be canon that several months passed between HoT and the start of Season 3, allowing Rytlock to have taken on a few trainees in the Pact before the Black Citadel caught up with him.)

  • castlemanic.3198castlemanic.3198 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    As an additional note:

    There may be few revenants still period. We're told that it doesn't take a lot to begin learning the revenant profession, but it's only been around for a couple of years and knowledge is probably not actually spreading that quickly. It wouldn't surprise me if, at this point in time, it's not widely known outside the Pact and the charr that Rytlock has apparently taught.

    (It's worth noting, incidentally, that it may well be canon that several months passed between HoT and the start of Season 3, allowing Rytlock to have taken on a few trainees in the Pact before the Black Citadel caught up with him.)

    That time period could be long enough for the commander to canonically be a revenant, which I'd love for the commander to be recognised as a revenant in game by npc, and i think it wouldn't contradict Rytlock holding out on the details of his journey into the mists, since we now know that

    Rytlock met Glint in the mists, who taught him how to channel it's power, and that Rytlock freed Balthazar as repayment for reigniting sohothin.

    which has nothing to do with teaching how to use the mists.

    Season 3 did a good job of recognising necromancers, engineers, rangers, thieves and mesmers (all in the same episode funnily enough, though the latter two in one dialogue and the former three game mechanics wise), so it seems that it's at least on some of their minds, and i'd hope to see more of that in the future.

    (Also, yes, I agree on the point that a character can have multiple favourite weapons, I myself have multiple favourite weapons and weaponsets within the game too).

    Whataboutism is disingenuous at best. If you join a debate and provide little to no proof when the other side provides lots of evidence, you can't then declare yourself the winner of that debate. I won't engage with bad faith arguments.

  • Kuulpb.5412Kuulpb.5412 Member ✭✭✭

    @Kuulpb.5412 said:

    I do have two... strange... questions...
    ONE - During the PoF story, when disguised in beasts of War [SPOILER] - Rytlock hands you Sohothin, and He then Holds a Greatsword, and not a shortbow, why? It really annoys me, Kalla's statue - GS, Rytlock in PoF - GS, Balthazar - GS, Renegade - Shortbow. (Seriously, the ONLY mention is by an NPC put in AFTER They thought of shortbow, yes You can talk about statues, but don't forget there were 5 bows types in GW1, and we don't know when it shifted to 2, meaning mentioning " a bow" on statues could be... a Flatbow, for all we know, to "snipe" people.

    Your point, originally, as quoted, was about why Rytlock used a greatsword INSTEAD of a shortbow. It's right there, undeniably so, and I addressed that by stating that Rytlock has been using a sword for all these years, why would he switch to a shortbow now? I don't have an answer for why he's wielding a greatsword instead of a one handed sword because that seems more like a dev mistake than anything else, but your original point was entirely about why greatsword and not shortbow, and I've already shown you how Kalla could have learned how to use a bow effectively.

    What I was getting at was - If renegade was such a big deal in that the charr renegade gorea channels Kalla, why wouldn't rytlock, who taught them use a shortbow too? since he would have had to teach them to access kalla, meaning he had a choice of basically Any revenant weapon, or shortbow. And he chose Greatsword. Yes NPCs are not limited like we are, but that doesn't mean every npc can wield every weapon Rytlock as a warrior never wielded a greatsword, as mentioned it was sword/pistol, (which could be argued it was the charr hidden pistol racial, just out forever), So Him wielding a Pistol I would have understood, but greatsword just seems to out there.

  • Rognik.2579Rognik.2579 Member ✭✭✭

    Why Kalla as the spirit? It's because she was the first charr fighter in ages to rise up, helped teach other charr females to fight, and became a bigger name in history than Pyre was. She is the one credited with ousting the Flame Legion, not Pyre. That's the long and short of it.

    Why doesn't Rytlock ever use a short bow? Because he doesn't care to channel Kalla. Nothing against her or anything, but he has enough voices in his head as it is. He doesn't need another. Gorea's comment is that he knows the revenant ways best, and would probably be better suited to channeling the spirit.

  • castlemanic.3198castlemanic.3198 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kuulpb.5412 said:
    What I was getting at was - If renegade was such a big deal in that the charr renegade gorea channels Kalla, why wouldn't rytlock, who taught them use a shortbow too? since he would have had to teach them to access kalla, meaning he had a choice of basically Any revenant weapon, or shortbow. And he chose Greatsword. Yes NPCs are not limited like we are, but that doesn't mean every npc can wield every weapon Rytlock as a warrior never wielded a greatsword, as mentioned it was sword/pistol, (which could be argued it was the charr hidden pistol racial, just out forever), So Him wielding a Pistol I would have understood, but greatsword just seems to out there.

    Throughout Heart of Thorns, Rytlock has expressly been a herald, but despite his channeling Glint, he never picked up a shield, which is the herald weapon. Considering Rytlock had a personal relationship with glint, by your logic, Rytlock should have been using a shield throughout heart of thorns. He has a second arm to use, a space for an offhand that wouldn't even clash with wielding Sohothin, but Rytlock instead wielded only Sohothin, only a one handed sword and not an off-hand weapon which he has the space to use.

    So let me ask you the reverse, considering the above, why would Rytlock use a shortbow if he didn't even pick up a shield as a herald?

    One more piece of lore to tie into what someone suggested above:
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Legendary_Dwarf_Stance
    " Jalis Ironhammer: Impressive. You fight like a natural born dwarf.
    : I learned from the best."

    Gorea more than likely learned how to use a bow from Kalla herself, rather than from Rytlock. As I mentioned before, Rytlock taught some charr how to channel the mists as a revenant and likely started with Kalla as a reliable legend that all charr can trust, so that teaching them other legends like Shiro and Mallyx wouldn't immediately start a riot, and so learning the bow specifically from Kalla isn't unreasonable. As the devs have mentioned in that blogpost:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/hidden-arcana-role-playing-the-revenant/

    "A revenant’s legends are not merely echoes of the past but are fully sentient, with opinions and personalities of their own."

    Meaning they are entirely capable of communicating and learning from the legends themselves.

    Like Drax said, as Rytlock was a warrior before he was a revenant, it's entirely possible that he fell back on his warrior training.

    Whataboutism is disingenuous at best. If you join a debate and provide little to no proof when the other side provides lots of evidence, you can't then declare yourself the winner of that debate. I won't engage with bad faith arguments.

  • Kuulpb.5412Kuulpb.5412 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 1, 2017

    I would argue that - He would need a weapon - End - Sohothin was a weapon, a one handed sword, so he could fight, He then could have picked shortbow as that is an attacking weapon, and poF related, but instead he had a greatsword.

    Edit - yes it is possible he fell back onto warrior training, if Anet said this was the case it'd solve everything, However Only kalla and Possibly ventari would teach their weapons, Shiro would most likely be angry at being bound and mallyx would be a gorilla.

  • castlemanic.3198castlemanic.3198 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kuulpb.5412 said:
    I would argue that - He would need a weapon - End - Sohothin was a weapon, a one handed sword, so he could fight, He then could have picked shortbow as that is an attacking weapon, and poF related, but instead he had a greatsword.

    Edit - yes it is possible he fell back onto warrior training, if Anet said this was the case it'd solve everything, However Only kalla and Possibly ventari would teach their weapons, Shiro would most likely be angry at being bound and mallyx would be a gorilla.

    So basically, you just wanted it to be thematically consistent with the expansion. That's your gripe with the situation, it doesn't relate back to the revenant PoF elite spec but instead he chose a greatsword for what is, ultimately, an inconsequential scene in the game, one that will probably never be repeated in the game.

    We've answered this time and time again, NPCs aren't beholden to the restrictions of the player classes, there has been several examples, one of which is Rytlock himself. There's no NEED to explain that he fell back on his warrior training because it's the most likely lore conclusion. There are several parts of the GW2 story that we can figure out what happened in the gaps because of logical deduction, and that's for important story details like why the sylvari are free from mordremoths control, this one moment where Rytlock wields a greatsword cause he gave the commander Sohothin is really being blown out of proportion for it's importance to a cohesive narrative, especially considering how Rytlock was initially a warrior, and as such knows how to use a greatsword.

    As for Shiro and Mallyx, well:

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Legendary_Assassin_Stance

    Shiro's dialogue indicates a curiosity in the player, a desire for freedom but also a willingness to aid the commander.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Legendary_Demon_Stance

    The fact that Mallyx talks suggests he's much much more than just a gorilla.

    Whataboutism is disingenuous at best. If you join a debate and provide little to no proof when the other side provides lots of evidence, you can't then declare yourself the winner of that debate. I won't engage with bad faith arguments.

  • Kuulpb.5412Kuulpb.5412 Member ✭✭✭

    You argued earlier that kalla would know to use a shortbow as charr learn to use many weapons etc. ( something along those lines, forgive me for not quoting exactly), So of all the weapons he chose greatsword, of the weapons, - Sword, axe, mace, shortbow, longbow, staff(as seen in a trailer), greatsword, hammer, dagger. he chose Greatsword. - it just irks me - In HoT trailer he uses a Melee Staff, showing he is capable, he uses a sword, Kalla uses Shortbow, Rytlock then decides on GS instead of melee staff. it may be perfectly sensible lorewise, but it just feels inconsistent. that he's used Sword/Pistol, Staff and Greatsword. Which you've already mentioned isn't locked for npcs, (I know, pistol/torch bandits) but he's never seen using a GS Prior to this.

  • castlemanic.3198castlemanic.3198 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kuulpb.5412 said:
    You argued earlier that kalla would know to use a shortbow as charr learn to use many weapons etc. ( something along those lines, forgive me for not quoting exactly), So of all the weapons he chose greatsword, of the weapons, - Sword, axe, mace, shortbow, longbow, staff(as seen in a trailer), greatsword, hammer, dagger. he chose Greatsword. - it just irks me - In HoT trailer he uses a Melee Staff, showing he is capable, he uses a sword, Kalla uses Shortbow, Rytlock then decides on GS instead of melee staff. it may be perfectly sensible lorewise, but it just feels inconsistent. that he's used Sword/Pistol, Staff and Greatsword. Which you've already mentioned isn't locked for npcs, (I know, pistol/torch bandits) but he's never seen using a GS Prior to this.

    Yes, but knowing how to wield something doesn't mean you enjoy using it or have a preference for using it over another weapon. And the leap from sword to greatsword is extremely tiny compared to the leap from sword to shortbow.

    Also, the trailer should not be taken as Rytlock canonically/lore-wise using a staff, that specific trailer was more than likely showing off how revenants can use a staff, this cool shiny new class that uses weapons in unique ways, just like the Heart of Thorns launch trailer where Rytlock takes down a wyvern in a single strike can't be taken as official lore or canon. If you recall, the Path of Fire trailers shows Kasmeer riding a skimmer, but in game she rides a raptor at every mountable opportunity (that i've seen at least). That's the fault with trailers, flair over substance. They're hype material and should not be taken as anything beyond that, especially not as lore. Canonically speaking, we've only seen Rytlock use a one handed sword and a pistol, and then only a one handed sword, so any variation on that could be seen as inconsistent, including Rytlock wielding a shortbow.

    Whataboutism is disingenuous at best. If you join a debate and provide little to no proof when the other side provides lots of evidence, you can't then declare yourself the winner of that debate. I won't engage with bad faith arguments.

  • Kuulpb.5412Kuulpb.5412 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 2, 2017

    ON a somewhat related, but different, note. Regarding Turai Ossa being a legend, We've gone to the desert, but we encountered Turai WAY before then in the durmand priory library, even before HoT. So yes If charr were the ones to learn from rytlock kalla makes sense, but COULD Turai have made sense if literally ANY of them were in the durmand priory?

  • Aaron Ansari.1604Aaron Ansari.1604 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 2, 2017

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    (It's worth noting, incidentally, that it may well be canon that several months passed between HoT and the start of Season 3, allowing Rytlock to have taken on a few trainees in the Pact before the Black Citadel caught up with him.)

    I would say that it's confirmed canon. While it did contain... oddities that are most likely mistakes, the Conspiracy of Dunces achievement is the only set of dates we have to work with, and it establishes ~10 months between the end of HoT and the start of S3.

    On the larger discussion- a lot of this seems to hinge on the basis of Rytlock being a renegade, but is there any evidence of that? Gorea only mentions Rytlock's knowledge of revenant powers in general. Combine that with the fact that she's choosing to learn to evoke Kalla in the depths of the Crystal Desert, with no other revenants in evidence nearby and a self-professed desire for solitude, and I was under the impression that she's figuring it out for herself.

    R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

  • castlemanic.3198castlemanic.3198 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 2, 2017

    @Kuulpb.5412 said:
    ON a somewhat related, but different, note. Regarding Turai Ossa being a legend, We've gone to the desert, but we encountered Turai WAY before then in the durmand priory library, even before HoT. So yes If charr were the ones to learn from rytlock kalla makes sense, but COULD Turai have made sense if literally ANY of them were in the durmand priory?

    The commander and jory were the only ones who encountered Turai Ossa's echo, the ritual could only happen once and as such nobody else could have ever met Turai Ossa before heart of thorns, so there's no scenario where Rytlock would teach charr in the black citedal revenant magic and that charr then goes on to channel Turai Ossa because the two met.

    However, if a revenant charr, after learning revenant magic from Rytlock, were to then travel to Elona and meet Turai Ossa for themselves, THEN it would make sense.

    @Aaron Ansari.1604 said:
    On the larger discussion- a lot of this seems to hinge on the basis of Rytlock being a renegade, but is there any evidence of that? Gorea only mentions Rytlock's knowledge of revenant powers in general. Combine that with the fact that she's choosing to learn to evoke Kalla in the depths of the Crystal Desert, with no other revenants in evidence nearby and a self-professed desire for solitude, and I was under the impression that she's figuring it out for herself.

    This is where I believe mechanics and lore are in conflict. The way revenant seems to work is the ability to channel legends. We now have two examples of elite specs based solely on a legend and magic related to that legend. It makes no sense that a revenant of any degree would only be able to stick with one legend or another, nor does it make any sense to limit (lore-wise) which legend can be learned or taught first. The denomination of 'revenant', 'herald' and 'renegade' makes much more sense mechanics and gameplay wise than it does lore-wise, as a way of distinguishing one elite spec from another, because lore-wise it's still all revenant magic with the base not really changing.

    It's my belief that the differences lore-wise between the base classes and their elite specs are minimal as a whole, since mesmers are still mesmers whether they're chronomancers or mirages, but they have new tricks up their sleeves as it were, but the difference is basically non-existent between revenants and their elite specs, it's just an extra legend in their armory in a class that's entirely about channeling legends (lore-wise).

    Whataboutism is disingenuous at best. If you join a debate and provide little to no proof when the other side provides lots of evidence, you can't then declare yourself the winner of that debate. I won't engage with bad faith arguments.

  • Aaron Ansari.1604Aaron Ansari.1604 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 2, 2017

    But it still doesn't follow that every revenant will necessarily access every legend, especially as the roster continues to expand. Kalla's example seems to have a deep personal resonance for Gorea, so it makes sense that she'd seek to harness her, but Rytlock's in a different boat. Maybe he doesn't identify so strongly with Kalla, maybe he figures he already has enough voices in his head... or maybe he does harness Kalla and we just don't know about it, but at this point we can't take that as a given.

    R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

  • castlemanic.3198castlemanic.3198 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Aaron Ansari.1604 said:
    But it still doesn't follow that every revenant will necessarily access every legend, especially as the roster continues to expand. Kalla's example seems to have a deep personal resonance for Gorea, so it makes sense that she'd seek to harness her, but Rytlock's in a different boat. Maybe he doesn't identify so strongly with Kalla, maybe he figures he already has enough voices in his head... or maybe he does harness Kalla and we just don't know about it, but at this point we can't take that as a given.

    But we're not talking about every revenant. We're talking about a select few charr who are revenants. We have the first non-rytlock revenant who channels Kalla, a fellow charr. My initial conjecture still stands, that Rytlock taught the first few charr revenants Kalla first as a way of easing in new charr, who are distrustful of magic as a whole, a legend they could understand, that they could connect with on a deeper level and thus make accessing revenant magic easier. Obviously Rytlock wouldn't start with Mallyx or Shiro, and the remaining three, while interesting for charr associated with the priory, wouldn't have enough of a connection to charr society to make that bridge to learning revenant magic super easy. We know through the article linked early that it's the same difficulty as a whole to become a revenant as any other profession, but there's the aspect of unfamiliarity that would, at least initially, make it more difficult to get accustomed to, so having not only a charr legend, but warband based magic to work with, would ease the gap of unfamiliarity that would help those first charr grasp the knowledge. More than likely the same thing happened when Rytlock was first learning revenant magic, that Glint taught him how to channel her and her draconic magic, showed him how safe it is in that he won't be possessed by those he channels, and then he saw the practicality (or came across) Shiro and Mallyx and uses them as well (though it's entirely possible that Rytlock channels Glint and a bunch of legends players have no access to at this point in time instead of the four core revenant legends that we have access to).

    It is still conjecture, and I could be horribly wrong about Rytlock's initial teaching style, with Gorea taking inspiration from Kalla herself without any suggestion from Rytlock to do so, but I think it's not unreasonable that Rytlock could expand his knowledge to at least showcase, if not constantly channel, Kalla for the first revenant students, and this being a one time thing won't mean Rytlock will forever channel all future elite spec legends as well.

    Whataboutism is disingenuous at best. If you join a debate and provide little to no proof when the other side provides lots of evidence, you can't then declare yourself the winner of that debate. I won't engage with bad faith arguments.