Condi mesmer still no nerf - Page 3 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Condi mesmer still no nerf

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  • Sampson.2403Sampson.2403 Member ✭✭✭

    Condi mirage is just okay now. Without portal or mainhand sword their mobility sucks. The sage condi mesmer is the popular build and its a 1v1 / small fight side node build which the boonbeast is better at. Plus boonbeast has way better mobility.

    When i see a axe/torch n staff condi mesmer on the other team i switch to a sword mainhand build and outplay them with mobility by decapping everything they cap and being quicker. Can't 1v1 them but i can dance around the map and plus one much better.

    Tldr - axe/torch + staff mesmer team impact got nerfed hard because of portal. They're slow as hell around the map, and a boonbeast can do everything that they can much better.

  • Solori.6025Solori.6025 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Burnfall.9573 said:
    Power Mesmer damages are outrageous at the moment. So in other word; > @DedalNort.3627 said:

    Still OP so let's wait for another patch and nerfs to power mirage.

    +1
    I was about to create a thread about this

    Build included in video

    Take this build into spvp and record your progress. I dare you

    Tingle my stingleberry

  • @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @will de grijze jager.6594 said:

    @Solori.6025 said:
    Make a boonbeast? Ranger has the best 1v1 specs in the game you shouldnt have an issue.

    Mate 1 of the best rangers that is streaming even have fought with a common condi mirage and he had no chance after the nerfs. Condi mesmer din't get nerfed almost. Don't forget nerf to an other class is also a buff for yours.

    Boonbeast hard counters condi mirage. Especially with boonbeast buffed to have access to double protection against both power and condition damage this patch, for some insane reason. If they're losing to condi mirage, they are not a good reanger.

    It needs multiple hard counters, not just 1. Put it this way, it needs the same treatment every other class has got over the last couple years. It needs to be hit so hard that when the player logs on and looks at their condition mesmer, they thinks to themselves "this build has been completely decimated, there is no point in playing condition mez anymore, I mine as well just delete this toon"

    That is what needs to happen to mesmer, at minimum.

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @DeadlySynz.3471 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @will de grijze jager.6594 said:

    @Solori.6025 said:
    Make a boonbeast? Ranger has the best 1v1 specs in the game you shouldnt have an issue.

    Mate 1 of the best rangers that is streaming even have fought with a common condi mirage and he had no chance after the nerfs. Condi mesmer din't get nerfed almost. Don't forget nerf to an other class is also a buff for yours.

    Boonbeast hard counters condi mirage. Especially with boonbeast buffed to have access to double protection against both power and condition damage this patch, for some insane reason. If they're losing to condi mirage, they are not a good reanger.

    It needs multiple hard counters, not just 1. Put it this way, it needs the same treatment every other class has got over the last couple years. It needs to be hit so hard that when the player logs on and looks at their condition mesmer, they thinks to themselves "this build has been completely decimated, there is no point in playing condition mez anymore, I mine as well just delete this toon"

    That is what needs to happen to mesmer, at minimum.

    The portal nerf alone has me thinking that.

    It has a few other counters besides Boonbeast as well. Don't just take my word for it.

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion

  • Ovark.2514Ovark.2514 Member ✭✭✭

    The reason we don't see the nerfs to mirage as sufficient is that mirage is NOT FUN TO PLAY AGAINST. Regardless of how strong it is, the fact that it's always stealthing and invuning and porting and blinding among others is reason enough for people to calmmor for nerfs. Of course what we really want is for Axe to not grant evade frames.

  • EpicTurtle.8571EpicTurtle.8571 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @DeadlySynz.3471 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @will de grijze jager.6594 said:

    @Solori.6025 said:
    Make a boonbeast? Ranger has the best 1v1 specs in the game you shouldnt have an issue.

    Mate 1 of the best rangers that is streaming even have fought with a common condi mirage and he had no chance after the nerfs. Condi mesmer din't get nerfed almost. Don't forget nerf to an other class is also a buff for yours.

    Boonbeast hard counters condi mirage. Especially with boonbeast buffed to have access to double protection against both power and condition damage this patch, for some insane reason. If they're losing to condi mirage, they are not a good reanger.

    It needs multiple hard counters, not just 1. Put it this way, it needs the same treatment every other class has got over the last couple years. It needs to be hit so hard that when the player logs on and looks at their condition mesmer, they thinks to themselves "this build has been completely decimated, there is no point in playing condition mez anymore, I mine as well just delete this toon"

    That is what needs to happen to mesmer, at minimum.

    That's a terrible balancing perspective.

  • Ovark.2514Ovark.2514 Member ✭✭✭

    @Vieux P.1238 said:

    @Ovark.2514 said:
    The reason we don't see the nerfs to mirage as sufficient is that mirage is NOT FUN TO PLAY AGAINST. Regardless of how strong it is, the fact that it's always stealthing and invuning and porting and blinding among others is reason enough for people to calmmor for nerfs. Of course what we really want is for Axe to not grant evade frames.

    & i said it this week. No matter how many nerfs you ask or get, the real reason players have issues with mesmers is that they don't like to deal with clones & targeting the right target. So keep nerfing, result will remain the same. Plebs will still be crying on how OP mesmer is no matter how many nerf's it gets.

    You know what, you're right. Before the phantasm rework I would have been only frustrated at Mirages. Now, thanks to the ridiculous Phantasm rework, all mesmers are a slog to fight. Clones are shattering ALL THE TIME even when the mesmer isn't using a shatter skill. Back in the day it took me quite a while to nail how to fight a mesmer. It's like arena net saw that good players who didn't main mesmer had learned well how to competently contest them. They looked at that and said "oh shoot, mesmers actually have to try now. . . well, I guess we need to make it even more difficult to tell what's going on."

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vieux P.1238 said:

    @Ovark.2514 said:
    The reason we don't see the nerfs to mirage as sufficient is that mirage is NOT FUN TO PLAY AGAINST. Regardless of how strong it is, the fact that it's always stealthing and invuning and porting and blinding among others is reason enough for people to calmmor for nerfs. Of course what we really want is for Axe to not grant evade frames.

    & i said it this week. No matter how many nerfs you ask or get, the real reason players have issues with mesmers is that they don't like to deal with clones & targeting the right target. So keep nerfing, result will remain the same. Plebs will still be crying on how OP mesmer is no matter how many nerf's it gets.

    "Pleb" would stop crying if at least we would get an OP hardcounter to condi mirage...just one to curb their number...

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • Vieux P.1238Vieux P.1238 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 17, 2018

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Vieux P.1238 said:

    @Ovark.2514 said:
    The reason we don't see the nerfs to mirage as sufficient is that mirage is NOT FUN TO PLAY AGAINST. Regardless of how strong it is, the fact that it's always stealthing and invuning and porting and blinding among others is reason enough for people to calmmor for nerfs. Of course what we really want is for Axe to not grant evade frames.

    & i said it this week. No matter how many nerfs you ask or get, the real reason players have issues with mesmers is that they don't like to deal with clones & targeting the right target. So keep nerfing, result will remain the same. Plebs will still be crying on how OP mesmer is no matter how many nerf's it gets.

    "Pleb" would stop crying if at least we would get an OP hardcounter to condi mirage...just one to curb their number...

    There is a hard counter to condi mirage. It's call traiting for or use condi clears. Try it.. see how it goes instead of zerking your build with out it. In fact you'l see it work's well vs more then just condi mirages.

    Winter Nerf is coming!

  • XECOR.2814XECOR.2814 Member ✭✭✭

    Mirage mains have arrived to flood the post with git gud and secure their broken spec.

  • Vieux P.1238Vieux P.1238 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @XECOR.2814 said:
    Mirage mains have arrived to flood the post with git gud and secure their broken spec.

    Says the necro main.

    Winter Nerf is coming!

  • @Vieux P.1238 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    "Pleb" would stop crying if at least we would get an OP hardcounter to condi mirage...just one to curb their number...

    There is a hard counter to condi mirage. It's call traiting for or use condi clears. Try it.. see how it goes instead of zerking your build with out it. In fact you'l see it work's well vs more then just condi mirages.

    Methinks you do not know what hard counter means. He means a class/spec that eats condi mirages for breakfast just like condi mirages eat Power Revs for breakfast.

  • Master Ketsu.4569Master Ketsu.4569 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 17, 2018

    @FyzE.3472 said:
    Agreed. Still not enough of a nerf.

    Actually it sort of was. Portal nerf was pretty big.

    Problem is, they broke the class again with their new BS get out of jail free passive. Mirage might not have portal in its kit anymore, but it can now invuln for over 20 seconds straight on a 60 second cooldown. It's pretty freaking unreal.

    Balance team refuses to nerf this spec without buffing it in some annoying way.

  • I feel bad for the mesmer mains that didn't lean hard into the one spec that is causing all the issues. All the power oriented mirage specs got their usability nerfed, and the condition builds got left alone.

    @Vieux P.1238 said:
    & i said it this week. No matter how many nerfs you ask or get, the real reason players have issues with mesmers is that they don't like to deal with clones & targeting the right target. So keep nerfing, result will remain the same. Plebs will still be crying on how OP mesmer is no matter how many nerf's it gets.

    That's not even the point that many of us are trying to make, though. There's a difference between being too incompetent to look at your target bar and realize that one mesmer has buffs on them the others do not have or is moving differently, and being competent enough to do that and land attacks, only to have the setup for those attacks nullified without needing to burn utilities because "kitten you".

    There are multiple groups of people upset at the design of the spec. Singling out the least capable of them does not automatically invalidate the people who understand the mechanics and targeting and take issue for other reasons.

    [Charr Noises]
    [Plays every class]
    [JUST GIT EVEN GUDDER ITS FINE]

  • everyman.4375everyman.4375 Member ✭✭✭

    By the way (talking to the OP), i checked and Helseth did indeed play recently (a bit) so you're at least right on something, HOWEVER he said that mesmer received the biggest nerf in history.
    There's also the fact that he doesn't play anymore so his view on the meta doesn't realy mean much.

  • Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Master Ketsu.4569 said:
    Mirage might not have portal in its kit anymore, but it can now invuln for over 20 seconds straight on a 60 second cooldown. It's pretty freaking unreal.

    Yawn

  • @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Master Ketsu.4569 said:
    Mirage might not have portal in its kit anymore, but it can now invuln for over 20 seconds straight on a 60 second cooldown. It's pretty freaking unreal.

    Yawn

    He have a point , he said that even.

    t's pretty freaking unreal.

    Thats is unreal to do ,relax ,just a troll

  • Solori.6025Solori.6025 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Master Ketsu.4569 said:

    @FyzE.3472 said:
    Agreed. Still not enough of a nerf.

    Actually it sort of was. Portal nerf was pretty big.

    Problem is, they broke the class again with their new BS get out of jail free passive. Mirage might not have portal in its kit anymore, but it can now invuln for over 20 seconds straight on a 60 second cooldown. It's pretty freaking unreal.

    Link the Spvp build that does this, then climb the ladder with it
    Tired of people looking at traits without actually making and playing the build.
    It's like if I said "Reaper has permanent damage buff its unreal"
    Without actually linking a viable build.
    And not even trying it out.

    Tingle my stingleberry

  • Solori.6025Solori.6025 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 17, 2018

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:
    I feel bad for the mesmer mains that didn't lean hard into the one spec that is causing all the issues. All the power oriented mirage specs got their usability nerfed, and the condition builds got left alone.

    FINALLY
    Someone who understands. T_T

    Edit: I wont say condition builds have been totally left alone, they have had a couple of nerfs here and there, but power mirage has been essentially cut out of existence.
    And that still angers me -_-

    Tingle my stingleberry

  • babazhook.6805babazhook.6805 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 18, 2018

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:
    I feel bad for the mesmer mains that didn't lean hard into the one spec that is causing all the issues. All the power oriented mirage specs got their usability nerfed, and the condition builds got left alone.

    @Vieux P.1238 said:
    & i said it this week. No matter how many nerfs you ask or get, the real reason players have issues with mesmers is that they don't like to deal with clones & targeting the right target. So keep nerfing, result will remain the same. Plebs will still be crying on how OP mesmer is no matter how many nerf's it gets.

    That's not even the point that many of us are trying to make, though. There's a difference between being too incompetent to look at your target bar and realize that one mesmer has buffs on them the others do not have or is moving differently, and being competent enough to do that and land attacks, only to have the setup for those attacks nullified without needing to burn utilities because "kitten you".

    There are multiple groups of people upset at the design of the spec. Singling out the least capable of them does not automatically invalidate the people who understand the mechanics and targeting and take issue for other reasons.

    While I do not PvP , reading the threads suggests the only Condition builds one really sees in PVP are mesmer and Necro variants. Generally this leads to people traiting less Cleanses and or not paying as much attention to their UI so as to determine what they can and can not do.

    Torment and Confusion are conditions that require a person to pay attention to something other then Cooldowns and when one should heal.

    There also a dichotomy between the "it faceroll easy to play a condition build mesmer" while calling for changes to make it easier to face one because a person does not want to pay attention to his UI. The impression I get is people will not be happy until everyone plays power. I just can not reconcile the demand for more nerfs to the remaining condition builds when the much greater percentage of builds out there across all specs are power.

    Now I do not play mesmer. I leveled one up to 80 via scrolls to tinker with it but could never get into the spec. I just think build diversity needs to be maintained and everyone playing power is not build diversity. Given how a Condition build can be nuetralized with cleanses, cleanses that are just as easy to use if not easier to use than the application of said condition, I feel if the few that remain are nerfed yet more they will disappear entirely.

  • The problem isn't condi mirage. It's mirages in general.
    Even as a necro you're greatly inferior to the condition application and condition "cleanse" compared to condi mirages. And they don't trade anything for this kind of gameplay. They are mobile, they are quite tanky and they even have the option to burst. As condi necro you are mostly a sitting duck, that has to facetank damage or kite while you get your conditions (or only source of damage) cleansed away.

    Disciples of the monkey god [Apes]

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vieux P.1238 said:

    @XECOR.2814 said:
    Mirage mains have arrived to flood the post with git gud and secure their broken spec.

    Says the necro main.

    Hey im a necro main who defended condi mirage against nerf, so no stereotypes please.

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • Solori.6025Solori.6025 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 18, 2018

    @gebrechen.5643 said:
    The problem isn't condi mirage. It's mirages in general.
    Even as a necro you're greatly inferior to the condition application and condition "cleanse" compared to condi mirages.

    I'm not so sure about application. The number of corrupts as well as skills that apply conditions is greater on necro iirc. And cleanses is also something I would contest as necro can either convert,transfer, or cleanse. Mirage or at least the current meta build does not have that luxury and has to avoid conditions other wise it can be loaded and killed

    And they don't trade anything for this kind of gameplay. They are mobile, they are quite tanky and they even have the option to burst.

    Correct only on the topic of condition burst. But then corrupting on necro yields a similar effect.
    They are not tanky unless built to tank. Otherwise it's a matter of utilizing clones properly. And any good players know how to deny that mechanic.
    They are not that mobile unless they use sword and lol that's a power weapon.
    And power mesmer is essentially dead thanks to people complaining.

    I would highly suggest to play the class vs competent players. Their is a reason mirage is absent from leaderboard representation

    As condi necro you are mostly a sitting duck, that has to facetank damage or kite while you get your conditions (or only source of damage) cleansed away.

    If the only thing you can do on necro is sit and get your conditions cleansed might I suggest playing a power spec on something else. The necros I have seen are able to point control, add sustain in team fights, provide cover for allies, deal with boon spam. Corrupt boons on a focus target.

    You know...the team fight things necro excels at

    Edit: revisiting the necro pvp build you have more boon corrupt than any class in the game. How are you struggling?
    Like it is THE best teamfighter

    Tingle my stingleberry

  • Arioch.4810Arioch.4810 Member ✭✭✭

    Mesmer, what is best in life?
    -To ambush your enemies
    See them tormented before you
    And to hear their lamentations on the forums

    :p

  • @Arioch.4810 said:
    Mesmer, what is best in life?
    -To ambush your enemies
    See them tormented before you
    And to hear their lamentations on the forums

    :p

    Sad truth :disappointed:

  • Azure The Heartless.3261Azure The Heartless.3261 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 18, 2018

    @babazhook.6805 said:
    While I do not PvP , reading the threads suggests the only Condition builds one really sees in PVP are mesmer and Necro variants. Generally this leads to people traiting less Cleanses and or not paying as much attention to their UI so as to determine what they can and can not do.

    Torment and Confusion are conditions that require a person to pay attention to something other then Cooldowns and when one should heal.

    There also a dichotomy between the "it faceroll easy to play a condition build mesmer" while calling for changes to make it easier to face one because a person does not want to pay attention to his UI. The impression I get is people will not be happy until everyone plays power. I just can not reconcile the demand for more nerfs to the remaining condition builds when the much greater percentage of builds out there across all specs are power.

    While I understand how you arrived at that conclusion, I would venture it is more complex than "Condis hurt."

    Digressing, the nature of Mirage's condition application compounds its effectiveness; not because people just ignore their condi bar but because the conditons applied themselves have no counterplay in tandem apart from "cleanse it.". If you get a condi burst on you from a thief or ranger, for instance, counterplay is evident if you look at your bar. Since their major lynchpin in their condi builds is poison, you need to cleanse poison before you heal, and you can still use skills to keep pressure on the thief or ranger. Mirage though, you get torment and confusion. Heavy stacks of both, with other jamming conditions to make cleanses harder. And to address those you either have a cleanse or...

    ...don't move, and do not use skills, while the mesmer hits you?

    If you're going to build a condition spec around punishing people for moving and using skills, it should not also be mandatory for them to do so in order to survive your rotation while those conditions melt off or cleanse comes back up. But that's another arguing point entirely.

    None of that is the issue.

    The issue is that, once you target the mesmer, they have absolutely no need to react to your initial pressure outside of "press dodge". They do not need to use utility skills or interrupt their channels because of damage pressure, because mirage cloak allows them to continue performing whatever skills they were performing if their cloak is used to evade a move that would interrupt them.

    On top of that, if they DO manage to get stunned they also do not need to use utilities or consider any kind of defensive maneuver, because dodging can be used while stunned, even if they do not take the Elusive Mind Grandmaster trait. So they can, at any point, as long as they have endurance, avoid any burst damage or pressure that would disrupt their rotation At baseline. Then they can take additional defensive measures via utilities if they so choose, and several of their class workings grant vigor.

    So, again, just to be clear.

    Clones are not the issue.
    Ambushes are not the issue.
    Huge mega dps is not he issue
    Condis are not the issue.

    The problem is, as far as I'm concerned, that mesmers have no reason to think about anything except their burst rotation. If it goes wrong, dodge. if they get interrupted, dodge. If they start getting cleaved, dodge. The channels will continue.

    This problem is less prevalent for the power oriented mesmers, as they are usually glass because power comes at a cost to vitality in most cases, and even cleaving strikes will make them panic. For Carrion Mirages, though.... nah. they don't care.

    If they had to do something defensive against stuns more substantial than pressing dodge again, and had to weigh that consideration when building their kit, it might make things a bit better.

    But rambling. Obviously there's people going ToO MaNy CloNEs aNd CoNdIs but I don't think that's the root of the issue.

    [Charr Noises]
    [Plays every class]
    [JUST GIT EVEN GUDDER ITS FINE]

  • @Solori.6025 said:

    I'm not so sure about application. The number of corrupts as well as skills that apply conditions is greater on necro iirc. And cleanses is also something I would contest as necro can either convert,transfer, or cleanse. Mirage or at least the current meta build does not have that luxury and has to avoid conditions other wise it can be loaded and killed

    You ran out of corrupt faster than a condi mirage can put them on you. Tranfering conditions is in most cases a thing that can be dodged. That makes the mesmer far more viable in the condition spec.

    They are not tanky unless built to tank. Otherwise it's a matter of utilizing clones properly. And any good players know how to deny that mechanic.
    They are not that mobile unless they use sword and lol that's a power weapon.
    And power mesmer is essentially dead thanks to people complaining.

    I compare Mesmer and Necro here. Necro has to be build for being tanky too, but with no or lesser access to invulnerabilty, stealth or mobility.
    For being dead I see a lot more power mirages than power necros or reapers in the matchups.

    If the only thing you can do on necro is sit and get your conditions cleansed might I suggest playing a power spec on something else. The necros I have seen are able to point control, add sustain in team fights, provide cover for allies, deal with boon spam. Corrupt boons on a focus target.

    That was always the case. You need to a babysitter on the necro, which you don't on a mesmer. But that wasn't the point. The point is that condi mirage is by far superior to Necro in their "class identity" and that's condition pressure.

    Like it is THE best teamfighter

    Make a thread if you have a problem with that. I don't see anyone complaining about necro being good when having a team that supports them - while Mirage and Mesmer was overtuned in most of the pvp seasons since the beginning and it still it.

    Disciples of the monkey god [Apes]

  • Solori.6025Solori.6025 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said:
    While I do not PvP , reading the threads suggests the only Condition builds one really sees in PVP are mesmer and Necro variants. Generally this leads to people traiting less Cleanses and or not paying as much attention to their UI so as to determine what they can and can not do.

    Torment and Confusion are conditions that require a person to pay attention to something other then Cooldowns and when one should heal.

    There also a dichotomy between the "it faceroll easy to play a condition build mesmer" while calling for changes to make it easier to face one because a person does not want to pay attention to his UI. The impression I get is people will not be happy until everyone plays power. I just can not reconcile the demand for more nerfs to the remaining condition builds when the much greater percentage of builds out there across all specs are power.

    While I understand how you arrived at that conclusion, I would venture it is more complex than "Condis hurt."

    Digressing, the nature of Mirage's condition application compounds its effectiveness; not because people just ignore their condi bar but because the conditons applied themselves have no counterplay in tandem apart from "cleanse it.". If you get a condi burst on you from a thief or ranger, for instance, counterplay is evident if you look at your bar. Since their major lynchpin in their condi builds is poison, you need to cleanse poison before you heal, and you can still use skills to keep pressure on the thief or ranger. Mirage though, you get torment and confusion. Heavy stacks of both, with other jamming conditions to make cleanses harder. And to address those you either have a cleanse or...

    ...don't move, and do not use skills, while the mesmer hits you?

    If you're going to build a condition spec around punishing people for moving and using skills, it should not also be mandatory for them to do so in order to survive your rotation while those conditions melt off or cleanse comes back up. But that's another arguing point entirely.

    None of that is the issue.

    The issue is that, once you target the mesmer, they have absolutely no need to react to your initial pressure outside of "press dodge". They do not need to use utility skills or interrupt their channels because of damage pressure, because mirage cloak allows them to continue performing whatever skills they were performing if their cloak is used to evade a move that would interrupt them.

    On top of that, if they DO manage to get stunned they also do not need to use utilities or consider any kind of defensive maneuver, because dodging can be used while stunned, even if they do not take the Elusive Mind Grandmaster trait. So they can, at any point, as long as they have endurance, avoid any burst damage or pressure that would disrupt their rotation At baseline. Then they can take additional defensive measures via utilities if they so choose, and several of their class workings grant vigor.

    So, again, just to be clear.

    Clones are not the issue.
    Ambushes are not the issue.
    Huge mega dps is not he issue
    Condis are not the issue.

    The problem is, as far as I'm concerned, that mesmers have no reason to think about anything except their burst rotation. If it goes wrong, dodge. if they get interrupted, dodge. If they start getting cleaved, dodge. The channels will continue.

    This problem is less prevalent for the power oriented mesmers, as they are usually glass because power comes at a cost to vitality in most cases, and even cleaving strikes will make them panic. For Carrion Mirages, though.... nah. they don't care.

    If they had to do something defensive against stuns more substantial than pressing dodge again, and had to weigh that consideration when building their kit, it might make things a bit better.

    But rambling. Obviously there's people going ToO MaNy CloNEs aNd CoNdIs but I don't think that's the root of the issue.

    Question:

    What do you think the burst combo comprises of?
    Like, From what I have seen you need to ambush to apply high stacks of torment.
    The combo I usually am able to pull off leads to 15-18 stacks of confusion and about 20 or so stacks of torment. Assuming everything lands.
    What combo are you referring to that is able to do that AND ALSO save dodges?

    Tingle my stingleberry

  • Solori.6025Solori.6025 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @gebrechen.5643 said:

    @Solori.6025 said:

    I'm not so sure about application. The number of corrupts as well as skills that apply conditions is greater on necro iirc. And cleanses is also something I would contest as necro can either convert,transfer, or cleanse. Mirage or at least the current meta build does not have that luxury and has to avoid conditions other wise it can be loaded and killed

    You ran out of corrupt faster than a condi mirage can put them on you. Tranfering conditions is in most cases a thing that can be dodged. That makes the mesmer far more viable in the condition spec.

    How do you run out of corrupts?
    Are we looking at the same build?
    Or do you mean cleanses?

    They are not tanky unless built to tank. Otherwise it's a matter of utilizing clones properly. And any good players know how to deny that mechanic.
    They are not that mobile unless they use sword and lol that's a power weapon.
    And power mesmer is essentially dead thanks to people complaining.

    I compare Mesmer and Necro here. Necro has to be build for being tanky too, but with no or lesser access to invulnerabilty, stealth or mobility.
    For being dead I see a lot more power mirages than power necros or reapers in the matchups.

    Me and you must be seeing completely different match ups, what tier are you in?
    You are correct while you don't have access to stealth or invulnerability you do have access to increased health pool, barrier ( or in reapers case another health bar), and abundance of boon corruption, and large area denial. Everything that you need in a TEAM based game.
    It's why scourge specifically is so common.

    If the only thing you can do on necro is sit and get your conditions cleansed might I suggest playing a power spec on something else. The necros I have seen are able to point control, add sustain in team fights, provide cover for allies, deal with boon spam. Corrupt boons on a focus target.

    That was always the case. You need to a babysitter on the necro, which you don't on a mesmer. But that wasn't the point. The point is that condi mirage is by far superior to Necro in their "class identity" and that's condition pressure.

    Again- I disagree.
    In terms of mirage v scourge - scourge has superior sustained condition application. But it would help if I knew what build you are talking about. As I am referring to this one
    https://www.godsofpvp.net/builds/necromancer/

    If your issue is that you can't 1v1 on a necro as well as mirage can then..again..you need to get on a new class.
    Necro has never had a straight up high profile side noder or 1v1 build to my knowledge. ( not like mesmer, rev, thief, ranger,engi, or war)
    But corruption and area denial. I don't think ANY class can take that identity from scourge. Hasn't been touched since day 1.

    Like it is THE best teamfighter

    Make a thread if you have a problem with that. I don't see anyone complaining about necro being good when having a team that supports them - while Mirage and Mesmer was overtuned in most of the pvp seasons since the beginning and it still it.

    Mirage was overtuned.

    Specific condition builds are all overtuned. That is a discussion for later however

    Tingle my stingleberry

  • Zero.3871Zero.3871 Member ✭✭✭

    plz guys, stop opening those threads! everything that anet reads in this thread is:

    Player wrote: Mirage is op, plz fix anet!

    Anet reads: necro OP, plz fix anet !
    anet Response: no Problem, nerf Incoming B)

  • Solori.6025Solori.6025 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zero.3871 said:
    plz guys, stop opening those threads! everything that anet reads in this thread is:

    Player wrote: Mirage is op, plz fix anet!

    Anet reads: necro OP, plz fix anet !
    anet Response: no Problem, nerf Incoming B)

    You forgot the part where the patch comes and they nerf ele..

    Tingle my stingleberry

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 18, 2018

    How about instead of nerfing mesmers condi they first nerf condi cleanses instead of having to wreck another condi spec?

    Seriously, no more breaking specs.

    Anet should rather listen to people who know how the spec performs at max level, so before anymore nerfs happen, I want some information on the performance on all Mesmer specs such as chronomancer core and mirage.

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • coro.3176coro.3176 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 18, 2018

    @Axl.8924 said:
    How about instead of nerfing mesmers condi they first nerf condi cleanses instead of having to wreck another condi spec?

    Seriously, no more breaking specs.

    Anet should rather listen to people who know how the spec performs at max level, so before anymore nerfs happen, I want some information on the performance on all Mesmer specs such as chronomancer core and mirage.

    This should be obvious to them. How many people are playing condi on other classes...

    • engi? approximately zero
    • revenant? approximately zero
    • ranger? approximately zero
    • warrior? approximately zero
    • thief? approximately zero
    • guardian? approximately zero
    • necro? eh, some
    • mesmer? almost all

    Maybe .. just MAYBE it's because condi mirage and to a lesser extent scourge are the only viable condi builds right now.

    Why is this? They're the only ones that can overwhelm the amount of cleanse in the game.

    Solution? Nerf the amount of cleanse in the game until the other builds are playable, then nerf the only 2 overperforming builds down to match the rest.

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 18, 2018

    @coro.3176 said:

    @Axl.8924 said:
    How about instead of nerfing mesmers condi they first nerf condi cleanses instead of having to wreck another condi spec?

    Seriously, no more breaking specs.

    Anet should rather listen to people who know how the spec performs at max level, so before anymore nerfs happen, I want some information on the performance on all Mesmer specs such as chronomancer core and mirage.

    This should be obvious to them. How many people are playing condi on other classes...

    • engi? approximately zero
    • revenant? approximately zero
    • ranger? approximately zero
    • warrior? approximately zero
    • thief? approximately zero
    • guardian? approximately zero
    • necro? eh, some
    • mesmer? almost all

    Maybe .. just MAYBE it's because condi mirage and to a lesser extent scourge are the only viable condi builds right now.

    Why is this? They're the only ones that can overwhelm the amount of cleanse in the game.

    Solution? Nerf the amount of cleanse in the game until the other builds are playable, then nerf the only 2 overperforming builds down to match the rest.

    Condi scourge isn't even as strong anymore, its mostly the boon corrupt that helps kill them but the amount of condi corrupt isn't even that strong.

    But generally speaking yes you are correct.

    I think the strongest is still mesmers but worse yet, people who cry want things nerfed so they can win regardless of fun factor for other side.

    Nerf warriors endure pain? I don't know.Warriors might need it to survive, so I am unsure. I heard berserker is dead.

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • It seems every patch recently they nerf condi mes in the most ridiculous way that doesn't affect their damage. 2 ports instead of 3? Who cares?

    If you dodge their upfront burst from stealth they can still apply stupid amounts of conditions afterwards.

    So you dodge the torch phantom and the shatter. They can create clones immediately after which can put 25 stack of torment on you. You clear this and try to fight back but they can move whilst dodging and apply more condi to you. It's just stupid design.

    So good game design is if this class hits you or ports onto you with their blink from stealth and you have stacks of confusion and torment on you you're not meant to cast or move or you'll die? So I'll just unplug my keyboard when they attack. Great counter play......

  • Azure The Heartless.3261Azure The Heartless.3261 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 18, 2018

    @Solori.6025 said:
    The combo I usually am able to pull off leads to 15-18 stacks of confusion and about 20 or so stacks of torment. Assuming everything lands.
    What combo are you referring to that is able to do that AND ALSO save dodges?

    I can go get numbers about how many dodges apart from the original two you can reclaim by running travelers, and energy sigils with False Oasis, but that is not the point I am trying to make. No sane mirage is going to burn all of their endurance for a burst, and even if they did that endurance drought would not last very long. My issue is specifically with combat flow for mirages not giving a rat's behind about any kind of CC.

    [Charr Noises]
    [Plays every class]
    [JUST GIT EVEN GUDDER ITS FINE]

  • EpicTurtle.8571EpicTurtle.8571 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 18, 2018

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    @Solori.6025 said:
    The combo I usually am able to pull off leads to 15-18 stacks of confusion and about 20 or so stacks of torment. Assuming everything lands.
    What combo are you referring to that is able to do that AND ALSO save dodges?

    But... I'm not referring to the combo being too heavy in damage. My issue is with the nature of mirage cloak itself.
    I can go get numbers about how many dodges apart from the original two you can reclaim by running travelers and energy sigils, but that is not the point I am trying to make. My issue, again, is with combat flow for mirages not giving a rat's behind about any kind of CC paired with the nature of their damage.

    Cool, give Mirage a super fun new mechanic to replace it aside from proposing your only able to use Ambushes and oGCD skills while Mirage Cloaked solution.

  • Solori.6025Solori.6025 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 18, 2018

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    @Solori.6025 said:
    The combo I usually am able to pull off leads to 15-18 stacks of confusion and about 20 or so stacks of torment. Assuming everything lands.
    What combo are you referring to that is able to do that AND ALSO save dodges?

    I can go get numbers about how many dodges apart from the original two you can reclaim by running travelers, and energy sigils with False Oasis, but that is not the point I am trying to make. No sane mirage is going to burn all of their endurance for a burst, and even if they did that endurance drought would not last very long. My issue is specifically with combat flow for mirages not giving a rat's behind about any kind of CC.

    With all the nerfs to vigor up time I would love to see the new thread with all of that considered. I would also still really
    really want to know the combo you are referring to
    How it is done, what time frame it is being done.
    How often is the burst being applied that a mirage can even after that shrug off CC
    Give me a realistic scenario so we can have a discussion about it. Because being a broken record is kinda eh, especially as has been mentioned, mirage is not well represented in the top. For good reason.
    Give me the combo-
    What are the stacks you are seeing?
    What are you considering burst?
    This is all relevant to the timing of dodges and counting. I am curious

    Tingle my stingleberry

  • -Elusive Mind- Exhaustion nerf revert to 2.5s from 6s.
    -Critical Infusion- Revert the nerf back to 5s of vigor from 3s.
    -Dune Cloak- In addition to its current effects make, make clones shattered cast this before they die.
    -Nomad's Endurance- Make it grant 150 Power as well.
    -Mirage Advance- Reduce Cast time to 0.25s from 0.75s
    -MC should not be usable while CC'd without EM.
    -Mirage Cloak- 0.75s dodge frame
    -Illusionary Ambush- increase the CD to 40s.
    -Sharper images- Reduce the chance to bleed to 50%. chance on critical hit for Illusions and yourself.
    -Jaunt- revert back to 3 charges, nerf the recharge to 45s.
    -Axe of Symmetry- remove the evade and increase the CD to 20s /or remove the target break.
    -Infinite Horizon- Add a Cooldown of 5s to the clone version but all clones still generate MC.

    Hopefully those are reasonable changes?

  • EpicTurtle.8571EpicTurtle.8571 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 19, 2018

    @Lucentfir.7430 said:
    -Elusive Mind- Exhaustion nerf revert to 2.5s from 6s.
    -Critical Infusion- Revert the nerf back to 5s of vigor from 3s.
    -Dune Cloak- In addition to its current effects make, make clones shattered cast this before they die.
    -Nomad's Endurance- Make it grant 150 Power as well.
    -Mirage Advance- Reduce Cast time to 0.25s from 0.75s
    -MC should not be usable while CC'd without EM.
    -Mirage Cloak- 0.75s dodge frame
    -Illusionary Ambush- increase the CD to 40s.
    -Sharper images- Reduce the chance to bleed to 50%. chance on critical hit for Illusions and yourself.
    -Jaunt- revert back to 3 charges, nerf the recharge to 45s.
    -Axe of Symmetry- remove the evade and increase the CD to 20s /or remove the target break.
    -Infinite Horizon- Add a Cooldown of 5s to the clone version but all clones still generate MC.

    Hopefully those are reasonable changes?

    Would prefer just a flat rework, but that'd be okay I guess.
    Looks fine
    Might make it actually usable, but could be a little too much condi pressure
    I don't see why not.
    /shrug Not really sure how to make that skill better
    Meh, don't really see it as a problem if people just delayed their bursts, Mirages still only have 2 dodges.
    No.
    Super no.
    Reduce the bleed duration instead, it's longer than Duelists Discipline which doesn't make sense as DD you choose and SI you get anyway
    That recharge nerf is kind of super heavy handed.
    Maybe remove the evade, but a 2.5x cooldown increase? No. Target Break isn't that hard to deal with.
    No.

  • Burnfall.9573Burnfall.9573 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 19, 2018

    @Kilar.4791 said:

    @everyman.4375 said:
    There's already another post saying the exact same thing and 2000 saying relatively the same thing so why do you feel the need to create another post ?
    I think you should just ask a mesmer player to help you understand the class and do some duels, after less than an hour of playing you'll understand that mesmer is not just applying conditions over and over.

    He made this post to cry, not to learn.

    It is not his job to learn. Once again; It is Anet job to finally take a stand that this ongoing epidemic has negatively impacted any remaining fun-factor in the game competitive scenery.

    Mesmer must hit rock bottom again. Except this time, in the right way

    "Once you hit rock bottom, that's where you perfectly stand; That's your chance of restarting, but restarting the right way"

  • everyman.4375everyman.4375 Member ✭✭✭

    @Burnfall.9573 said:

    @Kilar.4791 said:

    @everyman.4375 said:
    There's already another post saying the exact same thing and 2000 saying relatively the same thing so why do you feel the need to create another post ?
    I think you should just ask a mesmer player to help you understand the class and do some duels, after less than an hour of playing you'll understand that mesmer is not just applying conditions over and over.

    He made this post to cry, not to learn.

    It is not his job to learn. Once again; It is Anet job to finally take a stand that this ongoing epidemic has negatively impacted any remaining fun-factor in the game competitive scenery.

    Mesmer must hit rock bottom again. Except this time, in the right way

    "Once you hit rock bottom, that's where you perfectly stand; That's your chance of restarting, but restarting the right way"

    It's not his job to learn but if he doesn't he has no right to complain.

  • Burnfall.9573Burnfall.9573 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 19, 2018

    @everyman.4375 said:

    @Burnfall.9573 said:

    @Kilar.4791 said:

    @everyman.4375 said:
    There's already another post saying the exact same thing and 2000 saying relatively the same thing so why do you feel the need to create another post ?
    I think you should just ask a mesmer player to help you understand the class and do some duels, after less than an hour of playing you'll understand that mesmer is not just applying conditions over and over.

    He made this post to cry, not to learn.

    It is not his job to learn. Once again; It is Anet job to finally take a stand that this ongoing epidemic has negatively impacted any remaining fun-factor in the game competitive scenery.

    Mesmer must hit rock bottom again. Except this time, in the right way

    "Once you hit rock bottom, that's where you perfectly stand; That's your chance of restarting, but restarting the right way"

    It's not his job to learn but if he doesn't he has no right to complain.

    He including everyone else including myself in Guild Wars 2 6 years run, has the right to complain about Mesmer toxicity and its bad design

    Here is a 5 years old video of a duel between an elementalist vs a condi mesmer. You be the judge

  • @EpicTurtle.8571 said:

    @Lucentfir.7430 said:
    -Elusive Mind- Exhaustion nerf revert to 2.5s from 6s.
    -Critical Infusion- Revert the nerf back to 5s of vigor from 3s.
    -Dune Cloak- In addition to its current effects make, make clones shattered cast this before they die.
    -Nomad's Endurance- Make it grant 150 Power as well.
    -Mirage Advance- Reduce Cast time to 0.25s from 0.75s
    -MC should not be usable while CC'd without EM.
    -Mirage Cloak- 0.75s dodge frame
    -Illusionary Ambush- increase the CD to 40s.
    -Sharper images- Reduce the chance to bleed to 50%. chance on critical hit for Illusions and yourself.
    -Jaunt- revert back to 3 charges, nerf the recharge to 45s.
    -Axe of Symmetry- remove the evade and increase the CD to 20s /or remove the target break.
    -Infinite Horizon- Add a Cooldown of 5s to the clone version but all clones still generate MC.

    Hopefully those are reasonable changes?

    Would prefer just a flat rework, but that'd be okay I guess.
    Looks fine
    Might make it actually usable, but could be a little too much condi pressure
    I don't see why not.
    /shrug Not really sure how to make that skill better
    Meh, don't really see it as a problem if people just delayed their bursts, Mirages still only have 2 dodges.
    No.
    Super no.
    Reduce the bleed duration instead, it's longer than Duelists Discipline which doesn't make sense as DD you choose and SI you get anyway
    That recharge nerf is kind of super heavy handed.
    Maybe remove the evade, but a 2.5x cooldown increase? No. Target Break isn't that hard to deal with.
    No.

    This guys its why forum worth reading , lots of giggles. More fun than playing the game xD

  • Solori.6025Solori.6025 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 19, 2018

    @Lucentfir.7430 said:
    -Elusive Mind- Exhaustion nerf revert to 2.5s from 6s.
    -Critical Infusion- Revert the nerf back to 5s of vigor from 3s.
    -Dune Cloak- In addition to its current effects make, make clones shattered cast this before they die.
    -Nomad's Endurance- Make it grant 150 Power as well.
    -Mirage Advance- Reduce Cast time to 0.25s from 0.75s
    -MC should not be usable while CC'd without EM.
    -Mirage Cloak- 0.75s dodge frame
    -Illusionary Ambush- increase the CD to 40s.
    -Sharper images- Reduce the chance to bleed to 50%. chance on critical hit for Illusions and yourself.
    -Jaunt- revert back to 3 charges, nerf the recharge to 45s.
    -Axe of Symmetry- remove the evade and increase the CD to 20s /or remove the target break.
    -Infinite Horizon- Add a Cooldown of 5s to the clone version but all clones still generate MC.

    Hopefully those are reasonable changes?

    Some are and some are not
    Elusive Mind - Remove stunbreak on dodge- Now cleanses 2 damaging conditions and grants increased duration of superspeed- Superspeed removes movement impairing conditions but gives 2.5s exhaustion
    Critical infusion- good revert
    Dunce..i mean...Dune Cloak- Lower the Cooldown on deception skills by 20%- Clones leave a trail of glass that cause bleeding and cripple when shattered.
    3s bleed and cripple that stacks the longer you stay in the trail- 180 radius . Trails persist for 4s
    Nomads Endurance- Fine as is currently ( if they want to add power- it needs to be in the power line aka domination)
    Mirage cloak- "Your dodge ability is replaced by a long-range dash that grants Superspeed" See unhindered combatant- make the dash leave purple butterflies
    Infinite Horizen- Clones copy the mesmer doing a lesser ambushes
    ((Lesser Ambush has
    ((Lowered Condition duration
    ((ICD on daze from clones
    Illusionary Ambush- Increase CD to 25s
    Sharper Images - ( now besides the fact this only works on illusions.) Leave as is- 3s ICD
    Jaunt- Remove confusion- revert power damage nerfs- revert charges back to 3
    Axe of Symemetry- Reduce confusion duration to 4.5s, reduce confusion applied from 3 to 2
    Blinding Dissipation- 5s ICD
    Sand through Glass- increase CD to 30s- Create a glass storm around the Mirage- absorbing projectiles and giving the mirage 1s of stability 5s duration

    A lot of the changes you listed look like you just want the things that make mirage removed.
    Axes of symmetry is a non issue especially, because the target break puts YOU and clones into melee range.
    How many AoE's does it take to kill clones hand delivered to you?
    Sharper Images doesn't work on the mesmer itself. It even reads as such in the description and any other interaction would be a bug.
    Everyone hates Mirage Cloak, so give mesmers The dash dodge, let it function like a normal dodge ( cant dodge while stunned) I would take that compromise.
    EM shouldn't exist. Mesmer mains said this in beta- Dodge stunbreak is a gimmick design and it can only ever be insanely good, or insanely terrible.

    Tingle my stingleberry

  • Solori.6025Solori.6025 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Burnfall.9573 said:

    @everyman.4375 said:

    @Burnfall.9573 said:

    @Kilar.4791 said:

    @everyman.4375 said:
    There's already another post saying the exact same thing and 2000 saying relatively the same thing so why do you feel the need to create another post ?
    I think you should just ask a mesmer player to help you understand the class and do some duels, after less than an hour of playing you'll understand that mesmer is not just applying conditions over and over.

    He made this post to cry, not to learn.

    It is not his job to learn. Once again; It is Anet job to finally take a stand that this ongoing epidemic has negatively impacted any remaining fun-factor in the game competitive scenery.

    Mesmer must hit rock bottom again. Except this time, in the right way

    "Once you hit rock bottom, that's where you perfectly stand; That's your chance of restarting, but restarting the right way"

    It's not his job to learn but if he doesn't he has no right to complain.

    He including everyone else including myself in Guild Wars 2 6 years run, has the right to complain about Mesmer toxicity and its bad design

    Here is a 5 years old video of a duel between an elementalist vs a condi mesmer. You be the judge

    Why would you link a 5yr old video when they have a new video of an weaver v mirage which would be much more relevant.
    What are you drinking?

    @Burnfall.9573 said:

    @Kilar.4791 said:

    @everyman.4375 said:
    There's already another post saying the exact same thing and 2000 saying relatively the same thing so why do you feel the need to create another post ?
    I think you should just ask a mesmer player to help you understand the class and do some duels, after less than an hour of playing you'll understand that mesmer is not just applying conditions over and over.

    He made this post to cry, not to learn.

    It is not his job to learn.

    Then he can't complain.
    It's like crying you don't have money but you don't work.

    Tingle my stingleberry

  • Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Burnfall.9573 said:

    @everyman.4375 said:

    @Burnfall.9573 said:

    @Kilar.4791 said:

    @everyman.4375 said:
    There's already another post saying the exact same thing and 2000 saying relatively the same thing so why do you feel the need to create another post ?
    I think you should just ask a mesmer player to help you understand the class and do some duels, after less than an hour of playing you'll understand that mesmer is not just applying conditions over and over.

    He made this post to cry, not to learn.

    It is not his job to learn. Once again; It is Anet job to finally take a stand that this ongoing epidemic has negatively impacted any remaining fun-factor in the game competitive scenery.

    Mesmer must hit rock bottom again. Except this time, in the right way

    "Once you hit rock bottom, that's where you perfectly stand; That's your chance of restarting, but restarting the right way"

    It's not his job to learn but if he doesn't he has no right to complain.

    He including everyone else including myself in Guild Wars 2 6 years run, has the right to complain about Mesmer toxicity and its bad design

    Here is a 5 years old video of a duel between an elementalist vs a condi mesmer. You be the judge

    PU was a build in which you could just walk while the mesmer was attacking you because unless you attacked the mesmer, the damage was non-existent.

13
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