Condi mesmer still no nerf - Page 4 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Condi mesmer still no nerf

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  • Burnfall.9573Burnfall.9573 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 19, 2018

    Here is a 5 page thread in a Mesmer subforum discussing if Mesmer are Op. Quite interesting discussions with facts by mostly mesmer players

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/57501/mirage-mesmer-is-op/p5

    By the way, here is a video by pvp enthusiast who main mesmer-shorts. In some of his videos, he also states that mesmer damages are Op. Here is video of the strongest condition build he plays. In the intro, he states that he doesn't see too many nerfs coming for it in the future.

  • Boonbeast is way worse right now, and can counter condi mirage pretty easily in any 1vs1, and for now I don't think it has a direct counter, while mirage suffers quite a bit against good holos and boonbeasts and good thieves 100-0 a mirage no problem. Not to mention core guards are rising up and counter condi mirage too.

  • Azure The Heartless.3261Azure The Heartless.3261 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 19, 2018

    @Solori.6025 said:
    Everyone hates Mirage Cloak, so give mesmers The dash dodge, let it function like a normal dodge ( cant dodge while stunned) I would take that compromise.
    EM shouldn't exist. Mesmer mains said this in beta- Dodge stunbreak is a gimmick design and it can only ever be insanely good, or insanely terrible.

    I'm fine with that.

    @Solori.6025 said:
    Give me the combo-
    What are the stacks you are seeing?
    What are you considering burst?
    This is all relevant to the timing of dodges and counting. I am curious.

    The standard meta build puts on the stacks you are claiming, but at the end of the burst vigor has refilled endurance completely.
    Not to mention that if that goes wrong I can cloak - > false oasis for more vigor at any point, cloak -> blink, or move to staff for additional endurance for energy and... what passes for kiting. It ain't kiting but still.

    EX: https://imgur.com/a/Gw3swR0

    Again, this isn't even my argument. I don't know why I'm humoring it. I think the endurance gen is fine, and I think the condi damage is fine. What my concern is, is that if I am interrupted or set up for burst at any point there, I can avoid the burst at any time without touching my utility bar. Theres no need for me to commit any defensive option there "in case I get stunned" that would shift my rotation. THAT is what makes the torment and confusion nature of the condis a kick in the teeth to me.

    [Charr Noises]
    [Plays every class]
    [Balance is not going to happen Play whatever is easiest.]

  • Azure The Heartless.3261Azure The Heartless.3261 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 19, 2018

    @Burnfall.9573 said:
    It is not his job to learn

    Gonna stop you there.
    You need to learn so you know what is broken, or at least have an idea of how to try to deal with it.

    [Charr Noises]
    [Plays every class]
    [Balance is not going to happen Play whatever is easiest.]

  • Solori.6025Solori.6025 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 19, 2018

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    @Solori.6025 said:
    Everyone hates Mirage Cloak, so give mesmers The dash dodge, let it function like a normal dodge ( cant dodge while stunned) I would take that compromise.
    EM shouldn't exist. Mesmer mains said this in beta- Dodge stunbreak is a gimmick design and it can only ever be insanely good, or insanely terrible.

    I'm fine with that.

    I think everyone would be..
    BUUUUUTTTT
    knowing Anet.
    They will either
    A) leave it alone and further nerf vigor access across the board. Thus further destroying build diversity for multiple already non-meta type builds
    B.) Nerf MC by making it a .75 evasion, lower the superspeed or make it swiftness, and put exhaustion on the dodge

    @Solori.6025 said:
    Give me the combo-
    What are the stacks you are seeing?
    What are you considering burst?
    This is all relevant to the timing of dodges and counting. I am curious.

    The standard meta build puts on the stacks you are claiming, but at the end of the burst vigor has refilled endurance completely.
    Not to mention that if that goes wrong I can cloak - > false oasis for more vigor at any point, cloak -> blink, or move to staff for additional endurance for energy and... what passes for kiting. It ain't kiting but still.

    EX: https://imgur.com/a/Gw3swR0

    Again, this isn't even my argument. I don't know why I'm humoring it. I think the endurance gen is fine, and I think the condi damage is fine. What my concern is, is that if I am interrupted or set up for burst at any point there, I can avoid the burst at any time without touching my utility bar. Theres no need for me to commit any defensive option there "in case I get stunned" that would shift my rotation. THAT is what makes the torment and confusion nature of the condis a kick in the teeth to me.

    Ahh Ok, That makes sense.
    I would say " delay your burst" but in some cases though depending on who you're playing against they could mind game you :P
    My thing has been that if I am able to counter pressure then the mirage has to leave the point and kite- or just straight up run.
    I think condi application across the board is too high, no profession should be able to stack conditions in a matter of a few seconds repeatedly every 8-12 seconds. Shouldn't happen.
    But anyway
    I am all for a new dodge mechanic like I mentioned above. Gives mesmer a bit of mobility back, keeps it thematic with the superspeed access at the end of the dodge and functions like every dodge in the game.
    Chances of Anet actually doing their job and making mechanical changes that would be beneficial and not completely destroy a class based on an elite spec

    Zer0

    Tingle my stingleberry

  • Mesmer is my second most played profession. I know exactly how they work. I played condi for a long time. I don't need to learn anything I admitted they were op when I was playing as it as I'm an honest person.

    I was referring to axe damage where they nerfed the power value on it? I mean kitten?

    All of you defending mesmer are clearly mesmer mains in denial desperately trying to avoid nerfs who like playing god mode.

    I felt guilty playing as mes going far and meeting a warrior and killing him by rolling my face over the keyboard.

    All well known good mesmers admit condi mes is simple to play and op as kitten.

    Pink shorts hates having to play condi but whenever he sees a tough opponent on the other team he switches over to it because it's op.

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @gebrechen.5643 said:

    @Solori.6025 said:

    I'm not so sure about application. The number of corrupts as well as skills that apply conditions is greater on necro iirc. And cleanses is also something I would contest as necro can either convert,transfer, or cleanse. Mirage or at least the current meta build does not have that luxury and has to avoid conditions other wise it can be loaded and killed

    You ran out of corrupt faster than a condi mirage can put them on you. Tranfering conditions is in most cases a thing that can be dodged. That makes the mesmer far more viable in the condition spec.

    They are not tanky unless built to tank. Otherwise it's a matter of utilizing clones properly. And any good players know how to deny that mechanic.
    They are not that mobile unless they use sword and lol that's a power weapon.
    And power mesmer is essentially dead thanks to people complaining.

    I compare Mesmer and Necro here. Necro has to be build for being tanky too, but with no or lesser access to invulnerabilty, stealth or mobility.
    For being dead I see a lot more power mirages than power necros or reapers in the matchups.

    If the only thing you can do on necro is sit and get your conditions cleansed might I suggest playing a power spec on something else. The necros I have seen are able to point control, add sustain in team fights, provide cover for allies, deal with boon spam. Corrupt boons on a focus target.

    That was always the case. You need to a babysitter on the necro, which you don't on a mesmer. But that wasn't the point. The point is that condi mirage is by far superior to Necro in their "class identity" and that's condition pressure.

    Like it is THE best teamfighter

    Make a thread if you have a problem with that. I don't see anyone complaining about necro being good when having a team that supports them - while Mirage and Mesmer was overtuned in most of the pvp seasons since the beginning and it still it.

    Necromancer recently got buffed in boon corrupt.If you go look at the notes , you will see that wand is actually stronger in boon corrupt now.

    Boon corrupt isn't even the issue, the issue is necros have trouble landing enough condis to kill someone while surviving, because survival is difficult, and with the amount of cleanses, even more so, but the reason why necros are so strong, is that they can corrupt things like resist invigorate etc, while most classes are stuck with if they see resist and other stuff, they can at most strip buffs.

    In fact necros are the strongest anti boon class in game ATM.

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • If mesmer is so op, why do we have so few mesmers in top 100?

  • Master Ketsu.4569Master Ketsu.4569 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The real problem is that anet refuses to nerf cheesy scrub-pandering game mechanics.

    It doesn't matter if being able to invlun for longer than 10 seconds is balanced out by other things. It's bad for the game.

  • Burnfall.9573Burnfall.9573 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 19, 2018

    @XECOR.2814 said:
    Mirage mains have arrived to flood the post with git gud and secure their broken spec.

    This video by shorts was released after latest patch. He explains how the build works and yes, he was able to one shot in few kills

  • phokus.8934phokus.8934 Member ✭✭✭

    @Lucentfir.7430 said:
    -Elusive Mind- Exhaustion nerf revert to 2.5s from 6s.
    -Critical Infusion- Revert the nerf back to 5s of vigor from 3s.
    -Dune Cloak- In addition to its current effects make, make clones shattered cast this before they die.
    -Nomad's Endurance- Make it grant 150 Power as well.
    -Mirage Advance- Reduce Cast time to 0.25s from 0.75s
    -MC should not be usable while CC'd without EM.
    -Mirage Cloak- 0.75s dodge frame
    -Illusionary Ambush- increase the CD to 40s.
    -Sharper images- Reduce the chance to bleed to 50%. chance on critical hit for Illusions and yourself.
    -Jaunt- revert back to 3 charges, nerf the recharge to 45s.
    -Axe of Symmetry- remove the evade and increase the CD to 20s /or remove the target break.
    -Infinite Horizon- Add a Cooldown of 5s to the clone version but all clones still generate MC.

    Hopefully those are reasonable changes?

    Mirage Cloak was utterly useless with its original dodge duration. That will not change but some of these changes are fine.

  • @Burnfall.9573 said:

    @XECOR.2814 said:
    Mirage mains have arrived to flood the post with git gud and secure their broken spec.

    This video by shorts was released after latest patch. He explains how the build works and yes, he was able to one shot in few kills

    The video has preparch footage, as he says at 12:00, although it wouldn‘t have changed much (his words).

  • phokus.8934phokus.8934 Member ✭✭✭

    @Burnfall.9573 said:

    @everyman.4375 said:

    @Burnfall.9573 said:

    @Kilar.4791 said:

    @everyman.4375 said:
    There's already another post saying the exact same thing and 2000 saying relatively the same thing so why do you feel the need to create another post ?
    I think you should just ask a mesmer player to help you understand the class and do some duels, after less than an hour of playing you'll understand that mesmer is not just applying conditions over and over.

    He made this post to cry, not to learn.

    It is not his job to learn. Once again; It is Anet job to finally take a stand that this ongoing epidemic has negatively impacted any remaining fun-factor in the game competitive scenery.

    Mesmer must hit rock bottom again. Except this time, in the right way

    "Once you hit rock bottom, that's where you perfectly stand; That's your chance of restarting, but restarting the right way"

    It's not his job to learn but if he doesn't he has no right to complain.

    He including everyone else including myself in Guild Wars 2 6 years run, has the right to complain about Mesmer toxicity and its bad design

    Here is a 5 years old video of a duel between an elementalist vs a condi mesmer. You be the judge

    You’re complaining about Revenant damage from hammer and wanting it nerfed.

    You’re clearly a subpar player who needs to look at his own game play mechanics and flat out, get better.

    Stop complaining in life and actually take the time to figure things out instead of having others do it for you.

  • Burnfall.9573Burnfall.9573 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 19, 2018

    @Derenaya.3479 said:

    @Burnfall.9573 said:

    @XECOR.2814 said:
    Mirage mains have arrived to flood the post with git gud and secure their broken spec.

    This video by shorts was released after latest patch. He explains how the build works and yes, he was able to one shot in few kills

    The video has preparch footage, as he says at 12:00, although it wouldn‘t have changed much (his words).

    He also states that it would benefit me>mesmer

  • Burnfall.9573Burnfall.9573 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 19, 2018

    @phokus.8934 said:

    @Burnfall.9573 said:

    @everyman.4375 said:

    @Burnfall.9573 said:

    @Kilar.4791 said:

    @everyman.4375 said:
    There's already another post saying the exact same thing and 2000 saying relatively the same thing so why do you feel the need to create another post ?
    I think you should just ask a mesmer player to help you understand the class and do some duels, after less than an hour of playing you'll understand that mesmer is not just applying conditions over and over.

    He made this post to cry, not to learn.

    It is not his job to learn. Once again; It is Anet job to finally take a stand that this ongoing epidemic has negatively impacted any remaining fun-factor in the game competitive scenery.

    Mesmer must hit rock bottom again. Except this time, in the right way

    "Once you hit rock bottom, that's where you perfectly stand; That's your chance of restarting, but restarting the right way"

    It's not his job to learn but if he doesn't he has no right to complain.

    He including everyone else including myself in Guild Wars 2 6 years run, has the right to complain about Mesmer toxicity and its bad design

    Here is a 5 years old video of a duel between an elementalist vs a condi mesmer. You be the judge

    You’re complaining about Revenant damage from hammer and wanting it nerfed.

    You’re clearly a subpar player who needs to look at his own game play mechanics and flat out, get better.

    Stop complaining in life and actually take the time to figure things out instead of having others do it for you.

    "Customer complaints are important"

    "And there’s no better way to collect direct feedback from your customers and improve your product or service.

    However, the way you handle a complaint is the difference between keeping a customer or losing one. So, the next time you receive a customer complaint, listen to what the customer has to say, apologize (!), find a solution and follow up to see if he or she is happy with the way you are handling it.

    In doing so, you are on your way to creating more loyal customers, improving your product and delivering a better quality of customer service."


    "When a customer makes a complaint, he or she is voicing a concern in relation to your product or service. However, not all complaints are to be treated equally and there are several questions to ask yourself before you take action, including":

    Has this happened before?
    Have the complaints been recorded?
    How often does the same compliant arise?
    Is there a pattern to this complaint in how it was received?
    Has the same customer reported this previously?
    By answering these questions, you can take the necessary steps required to prevent them from happening again.

  • phokus.8934phokus.8934 Member ✭✭✭

    You sound very entitled and think the customer is always right.

    With regards to GW2, you’re even more overtly entitled based on your comments about how bad you play and how other classes are able to kill you.

    It’s a really good thing they don’t listen to people who post on the forums who make irrational emotional posts. So again, stop looking for others to fix your problems and really understand something instead of running to someone else.

  • Burnfall.9573Burnfall.9573 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 19, 2018

    @phokus.8934 said:
    You sound very entitled and think the customer is always right.

    With regards to GW2, you’re even more overtly entitled based on your comments about how bad you play and how other classes are able to kill you.

    It’s a really good thing they don’t listen to people who post on the forums who make irrational emotional posts. So again, stop looking for others to fix your problems and really understand something instead of running to someone else.

    I'm not entitled or to any special treatment. In fact, i'm quite the opposite. I encourage to resolve potential problems.

    "Every company greatest assets are its customers, because without customers there is no company"

  • Solori.6025Solori.6025 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Burnfall.9573 said:

    @XECOR.2814 said:
    Mirage mains have arrived to flood the post with git gud and secure their broken spec.

    This video by shorts was released after latest patch. He explains how the build works and yes, he was able to one shot in few kills

    Power mes doesn't work the same in spvp....Do you even play this game?!?

    Tingle my stingleberry

  • Burnfall.9573Burnfall.9573 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 19, 2018

    @Solori.6025 said:

    @Burnfall.9573 said:

    @XECOR.2814 said:
    Mirage mains have arrived to flood the post with git gud and secure their broken spec.

    This video by shorts was released after latest patch. He explains how the build works and yes, he was able to one shot in few kills

    Power mes doesn't work the same in spvp....Do you even play this game?!?

    (I was pointing out power mesmer, i did not make any claims that it worked in pvp)
    Advice to you: before you start raging or being aggressive , look for it or even ask shorts for the builds he uses. He will gladly answer any questions that you may have, calmly :) Thank You!!
    Pvp version

  • @will de grijze jager.6594 said:

    @Pooty Tang.8104 said:
    Did you not read the patch notes?

    Portal nerf ah not that bad. a bit less mobility noting more you guys are fine you have still the damage that you can apply without trying. I even can win on mesmer in plat+ and i have only played 4 hour with mesmer. That is how brain dead the condi mirage build is. I stopt with playing it becuase i was os borring.

    Pretty much every area of condi mirage has been nerfed already. Durations, damage, count charges, Elusive Mind is a joke trait now. Damage has been nerfed to the point where no condi mirage takes sword anymore so they also have mediocre mobility now. They also have virtually no clears. If you're (ppl in general, not YOU specifically) STILL having trouble imo it's a lern2play issue. The reason newbie mesmers can hang in plat is because there's a lot of non-plat players in those games who are still easily bamboozled by mesmer mechanics. Actual plat players have been fighting it long enough, they know how to deal with the condi mirage one trick pwny. I stopped playing it because my power build is far more effective in most game situations.

  • @Axl.8924 said:
    How about instead of nerfing mesmers condi they first nerf condi cleanses instead of having to wreck another condi spec?

    Seriously, no more breaking specs.

    Anet should rather listen to people who know how the spec performs at max level, so before anymore nerfs happen, I want some information on the performance on all Mesmer specs such as chronomancer core and mirage.

    Well condi mes takes no clears atm other than Jaunt, which was just nerfed, so congrats Anet has granted your wish

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 19, 2018

    @kodesh.2851 said:

    @Axl.8924 said:
    How about instead of nerfing mesmers condi they first nerf condi cleanses instead of having to wreck another condi spec?

    Seriously, no more breaking specs.

    Anet should rather listen to people who know how the spec performs at max level, so before anymore nerfs happen, I want some information on the performance on all Mesmer specs such as chronomancer core and mirage.

    Well condi mes takes no clears atm other than Jaunt, which was just nerfed, so congrats Anet has granted your wish

    While I did complain earlier this year about mesmers and mirage especially, I do not wish the class to be destroyed.

    I don't want condi mirage to disappear because of some sort of anger towards it. I am concerned that any other possible nerfs could destroy mesmers completely.

    I also have a alt Mesmer who play as chronomancer for support who is now completely shaved and im concerned about the viability, since I heard now I have to use wells and tell people to stand in them, which can frankly be sometimes pretty hard.

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • Vicariuz.1605Vicariuz.1605 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 19, 2018

    @losingcontrol.1084 said:
    Boonbeast is way worse right now, and can counter condi mirage pretty easily in any 1vs1, and for now I don't think it has a direct counter, while mirage suffers quite a bit against good holos and boonbeasts and good thieves 100-0 a mirage no problem. Not to mention core guards are rising up and counter condi mirage too.

    all of the classes u just mentioned lose 1v1 to a condi mirage.

    there is this interesting thing where people who do not actually understand match ups regurgitate the narrative they are told without actually testing it.

    boonbeast, conversion holo, s/d thief and core guard all lose 1v1 to condi mirage.

    one of the MAJOR reasons why flandre's team won last month was because boyce (boonbeast) was completely checked by condi mirage forcing him to teamfight on a build that is not suited for the role.

    as far as short's video, that is not the strongest condi build for mirage, torch offhand is the reason why it isnt, there is a better option that puts out FAR more pressure.

  • zoopop.5630zoopop.5630 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vicariuz.1605 said:

    @losingcontrol.1084 said:
    Boonbeast is way worse right now, and can counter condi mirage pretty easily in any 1vs1, and for now I don't think it has a direct counter, while mirage suffers quite a bit against good holos and boonbeasts and good thieves 100-0 a mirage no problem. Not to mention core guards are rising up and counter condi mirage too.

    all of the classes u just mentioned lose 1v1 to a condi mirage.

    there is this interesting thing where people who do not actually understand match ups regurgitate the narrative they are told without actually testing it.

    boonbeast, conversion holo, s/d thief and core guard all lose 1v1 to condi mirage.

    one of the MAJOR reasons why flandre's team won last month was because boyce (boonbeast) was completely checked by condi mirage forcing him to team-fight on a build that is not suited for the role.

    as far as short's video, that is not the strongest condi build for mirage, torch offhand is the reason why it isnt, there is a better option that puts out FAR more pressure.

    sword / shield conversion holo loses to condi mirage ? Last I remember It didn't lose to holo AT all, WAY to much condi cleanses/sustain for sword/shield conversion holo to lose that fight.

    Everything else you are right though, Boonbeast loses the match up depending on the skill level of said players on said classes. However I agree, Condi Mirage is pretty aids in this game at the moment with almost 0 skills needed to play the class and land an actual burst unlike power mirage. I just Don't Understand the lack of understanding on how to properly nerf the class without making it so.....weak.

    Anyway this isn't something new I saw this coming after reading the portal nerf, they pretty much gave mesmer a utility to use now for duels making them stronger.

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @UfoCoffee.2084 said:
    Mesmer is my second most played profession. I know exactly how they work. I played condi for a long time. I don't need to learn anything I admitted they were op when I was playing as it as I'm an honest person.

    I was referring to axe damage where they nerfed the power value on it? I mean kitten?

    All of you defending mesmer are clearly mesmer mains in denial desperately trying to avoid nerfs who like playing god mode.

    I felt guilty playing as mes going far and meeting a warrior and killing him by rolling my face over the keyboard.

    All well known good mesmers admit condi mes is simple to play and op as kitten.

    Pink shorts hates having to play condi but whenever he sees a tough opponent on the other team he switches over to it because it's op.

    The problem isn't that mesmer players won't admit it's OP, many say frequently the condition output is too much.

    The problem is ANet keeps nerfing everything BUT the condition output which makes non meta, hard to play builds even worse.

    Here's a great example of changes based on "the community" which have lead to nerfs, sure EM was justified but many weren't really and the builds affected were considered weak in the meta at the time.

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
    Naah, more likely:
    Community: Mesmer needs less dodges, less mobility, less sustain damage, less burst, less sustain, less clones, less hp.
    Mesmer mains: Mesmer needs either less burst or less sustain damage and for mirage cloak not to activate while stunned.

    @Spartacus.3192 said:
    So when people say mesmer is ANET's favorite class, they're not kidding.

    I would say ANet's favorite class profession is non of the 9, it's the forums' baddies.
    "Elusive Mind is op" (which all mesmers warned before PoF released)
    ANet deleted EM from game

    "Look at how much evade uptime mirage has!"
    ANet - Vigor nerfed to oblivion, rune of adventurer/sigil of energy nerfed

    "Portal needs to go, it's so op"
    ANet - Portal deleted

    "Gosh BF needs to be tonedown!"
    ANet - BF nerfed

    "Are you blind ANet? Power mesmer is so op, 100-0 in one sec!"
    Power block, Mental Anguish and Confunding Suggestions nerfed.

    This are all true and you can look for the complains just before the nerf arrived on forums.

    And there are many more examples, feel free to ask for them.

  • Vicariuz.1605Vicariuz.1605 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 19, 2018

    @zoopop.5630 said:

    @Vicariuz.1605 said:

    @losingcontrol.1084 said:
    Boonbeast is way worse right now, and can counter condi mirage pretty easily in any 1vs1, and for now I don't think it has a direct counter, while mirage suffers quite a bit against good holos and boonbeasts and good thieves 100-0 a mirage no problem. Not to mention core guards are rising up and counter condi mirage too.

    all of the classes u just mentioned lose 1v1 to a condi mirage.

    there is this interesting thing where people who do not actually understand match ups regurgitate the narrative they are told without actually testing it.

    boonbeast, conversion holo, s/d thief and core guard all lose 1v1 to condi mirage.

    one of the MAJOR reasons why flandre's team won last month was because boyce (boonbeast) was completely checked by condi mirage forcing him to team-fight on a build that is not suited for the role.

    as far as short's video, that is not the strongest condi build for mirage, torch offhand is the reason why it isnt, there is a better option that puts out FAR more pressure.

    sword / shield conversion holo loses to condi mirage ? Last I remember It didn't lose to holo AT all, WAY to much condi cleanses/sustain for sword/shield conversion holo to lose that fight.

    Everything else you are right though, Boonbeast loses the match up depending on the skill level of said players on said classes. However I agree, Condi Mirage is pretty aids in this game at the moment with almost 0 skills needed to play the class and land an actual burst unlike power mirage. I just Don't Understand the lack of understanding on how to properly nerf the class without making it so.....weak.

    Anyway this isn't something new I saw this coming after reading the portal nerf, they pretty much gave mesmer a utility to use now for duels making them stronger.

    if you would like to 1v1 conversion holo against condi mirage id be more than willing if u r on NA. of all the side noders conversion definitely has the best match up against condi mirage, but its still a win for the mirage.

    as far as power versus condi required input, id argue they are about the same level, there is minimal set up required for either to burst, the free utility slot has definitely opened the class up to filling interesting roles now which is appreciated.

  • @apharma.3741 said:

    @UfoCoffee.2084 said:
    Mesmer is my second most played profession. I know exactly how they work. I played condi for a long time. I don't need to learn anything I admitted they were op when I was playing as it as I'm an honest person.

    I was referring to axe damage where they nerfed the power value on it? I mean kitten?

    All of you defending mesmer are clearly mesmer mains in denial desperately trying to avoid nerfs who like playing god mode.

    I felt guilty playing as mes going far and meeting a warrior and killing him by rolling my face over the keyboard.

    All well known good mesmers admit condi mes is simple to play and op as kitten.

    Pink shorts hates having to play condi but whenever he sees a tough opponent on the other team he switches over to it because it's op.

    The problem isn't that mesmer players won't admit it's OP, many say frequently the condition output is too much.

    The problem is ANet keeps nerfing everything BUT the condition output which makes non meta, hard to play builds even worse.

    Here's a great example of changes based on "the community" which have lead to nerfs, sure EM was justified but many weren't really and the builds affected were considered weak in the meta at the time.

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
    Naah, more likely:
    Community: Mesmer needs less dodges, less mobility, less sustain damage, less burst, less sustain, less clones, less hp.
    Mesmer mains: Mesmer needs either less burst or less sustain damage and for mirage cloak not to activate while stunned.

    @Spartacus.3192 said:
    So when people say mesmer is ANET's favorite class, they're not kidding.

    I would say ANet's favorite class profession is non of the 9, it's the forums' baddies.
    "Elusive Mind is op" (which all mesmers warned before PoF released)
    ANet deleted EM from game

    "Look at how much evade uptime mirage has!"
    ANet - Vigor nerfed to oblivion, rune of adventurer/sigil of energy nerfed

    "Portal needs to go, it's so op"
    ANet - Portal deleted

    "Gosh BF needs to be tonedown!"
    ANet - BF nerfed

    "Are you blind ANet? Power mesmer is so op, 100-0 in one sec!"
    Power block, Mental Anguish and Confunding Suggestions nerfed.

    This are all true and you can look for the complains just before the nerf arrived on forums.

    And there are many more examples, feel free to ask for them.

    Mmm. Accurate. In hindsight it does seem like the direction with mesmer balance -has- actually followed the forum whining, which is why it hasn't fixed the problem.
    I need to look at this again. I don't think it's the condition application frequency 100% yet, but I'll revisit in case there's something I missed.

    [Charr Noises]
    [Plays every class]
    [Balance is not going to happen Play whatever is easiest.]

  • Solori.6025Solori.6025 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Burnfall.9573 said:

    @Solori.6025 said:

    @Burnfall.9573 said:

    @XECOR.2814 said:
    Mirage mains have arrived to flood the post with git gud and secure their broken spec.

    This video by shorts was released after latest patch. He explains how the build works and yes, he was able to one shot in few kills

    Power mes doesn't work the same in spvp....Do you even play this game?!?

    (I was pointing out power mesmer, i did not make any claims that it worked in pvp)
    Advice to you: before you start raging or being aggressive , look for it or even ask shorts for the builds he uses. He will gladly answer any questions that you may have, calmly :) Thank You!!
    Pvp version

    This is an spvp subforum
    I assume you may not know what that means as you linked a WvW video which has nothing to do with spvp.
    Your claim that power mes one shots. In spvp that is untrue. If you bothered to watch the video you linked he even says. You can't one shot with the build. And goes on to explain why the build is great at team fights and how that build folds under pressure.
    I'm not raging at you. Just pointing out your clear and biased ignorance against an entire profession. This isn't the first time you have done this either.
    Also. Parts of that build. Like the domination grandmaster were nerfed. Putting some of its damage further behind.
    For a team fighting build you could do more on other classes than that power mirage.

    Tingle my stingleberry

  • Solori.6025Solori.6025 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Axl.8924 said:

    @kodesh.2851 said:

    @Axl.8924 said:
    How about instead of nerfing mesmers condi they first nerf condi cleanses instead of having to wreck another condi spec?

    Seriously, no more breaking specs.

    Anet should rather listen to people who know how the spec performs at max level, so before anymore nerfs happen, I want some information on the performance on all Mesmer specs such as chronomancer core and mirage.

    Well condi mes takes no clears atm other than Jaunt, which was just nerfed, so congrats Anet has granted your wish

    While I did complain earlier this year about mesmers and mirage especially, I do not wish the class to be destroyed.

    I don't want condi mirage to disappear because of some sort of anger towards it. I am concerned that any other possible nerfs could destroy mesmers completely.

    I also have a alt Mesmer who play as chronomancer for support who is now completely shaved and im concerned about the viability, since I heard now I have to use wells and tell people to stand in them, which can frankly be sometimes pretty hard.

    Yea that is an issue. Anet seems to take the advice of people who have very little clue about the profession and nerf things around the actual issue with out ever touching the thing that is overperforming.

    Remember when the spvp community complained that Torch was the problem?
    Instead of listening to the people that played the class and basically laid out what the real issue was. Anet nerfed torch. Unsurprisingly. It didn't fix condi mes.

    Tingle my stingleberry

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @UfoCoffee.2084 said:
    Mesmer is my second most played profession. I know exactly how they work. I played condi for a long time. I don't need to learn anything I admitted they were op when I was playing as it as I'm an honest person.

    I was referring to axe damage where they nerfed the power value on it? I mean kitten?

    All of you defending mesmer are clearly mesmer mains in denial desperately trying to avoid nerfs who like playing god mode.

    I felt guilty playing as mes going far and meeting a warrior and killing him by rolling my face over the keyboard.

    All well known good mesmers admit condi mes is simple to play and op as kitten.

    Pink shorts hates having to play condi but whenever he sees a tough opponent on the other team he switches over to it because it's op.

    The problem isn't that mesmer players won't admit it's OP, many say frequently the condition output is too much.

    The problem is ANet keeps nerfing everything BUT the condition output which makes non meta, hard to play builds even worse.

    Here's a great example of changes based on "the community" which have lead to nerfs, sure EM was justified but many weren't really and the builds affected were considered weak in the meta at the time.

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
    Naah, more likely:
    Community: Mesmer needs less dodges, less mobility, less sustain damage, less burst, less sustain, less clones, less hp.
    Mesmer mains: Mesmer needs either less burst or less sustain damage and for mirage cloak not to activate while stunned.

    @Spartacus.3192 said:
    So when people say mesmer is ANET's favorite class, they're not kidding.

    I would say ANet's favorite class profession is non of the 9, it's the forums' baddies.
    "Elusive Mind is op" (which all mesmers warned before PoF released)
    ANet deleted EM from game

    "Look at how much evade uptime mirage has!"
    ANet - Vigor nerfed to oblivion, rune of adventurer/sigil of energy nerfed

    "Portal needs to go, it's so op"
    ANet - Portal deleted

    "Gosh BF needs to be tonedown!"
    ANet - BF nerfed

    "Are you blind ANet? Power mesmer is so op, 100-0 in one sec!"
    Power block, Mental Anguish and Confunding Suggestions nerfed.

    This are all true and you can look for the complains just before the nerf arrived on forums.

    And there are many more examples, feel free to ask for them.

    Mmm. Accurate. In hindsight it does seem like the direction with mesmer balance -has- actually followed the forum whining, which is why it hasn't fixed the problem.
    I need to look at this again. I don't think it's the condition application frequency 100% yet, but I'll revisit in case there's something I missed.

    There's a number of factors to be honest.

    Confusion AND torment as the main conditions creates an incredibly oppressive experience due to movement being so emphasised and high confusion shuts down skill use. - This is probably the biggest concern and one of the reasons why condi chrono was strong.

    It can burst the conditions onto you very quickly when properly set up. - The other biggest issue.

    Evade while CC'd probably shouldn't be in the game, likewise there shouldn't be builds that can effectively perma CC you with long durations till you run out of stunbreaks.

    Has objectively a lot of evades through weapon skills and extra on illusionary ambush though it's on par with active defences across meta classes.

    Scepter is FAR TOO STRONG. It's clunky yes but the block when traited is too low CD and too strong. Power damage on confusing images is too high too.

    From: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/62841/mesmer-changes-out-of-touch-with-player-base

    @apharma.3741 said:
    "We want mirages to excel in longer combat engagements, but their burst damage was just too high." - yet they nerfed most of a mirages defences over the last year while bringing them over to nerfing core traits and skills so even chrono and core is affected.

    If you want mirage to be less bursty remove everything from jaunt and leave it as a 20s CD condi cleanse and teleport (purity of purpose).
    Stop nerfing vigor and instead nerf the damage they do from ambush skills so they stack conditions slowly.
    How's about giving them weak stacking conditions like bleed/poison instead of blooming torment and confusion?

    It's not just a bit out of touch with the playerbase it's the right hand not knowing what the left is doing.

    From the devs I've spoken to they seem fairly nice people and really passionate about the game so believe me I don't like having to say this but it's very inconsistent what they say and then what they do.

  • @Vicariuz.1605 said:

    @losingcontrol.1084 said:
    Boonbeast is way worse right now, and can counter condi mirage pretty easily in any 1vs1, and for now I don't think it has a direct counter, while mirage suffers quite a bit against good holos and boonbeasts and good thieves 100-0 a mirage no problem. Not to mention core guards are rising up and counter condi mirage too.

    all of the classes u just mentioned lose 1v1 to a condi mirage.

    there is this interesting thing where people who do not actually understand match ups regurgitate the narrative they are told without actually testing it.

    boonbeast, conversion holo, s/d thief and core guard all lose 1v1 to condi mirage.

    one of the MAJOR reasons why flandre's team won last month was because boyce (boonbeast) was completely checked by condi mirage forcing him to teamfight on a build that is not suited for the role.

    as far as short's video, that is not the strongest condi build for mirage, torch offhand is the reason why it isnt, there is a better option that puts out FAR more pressure.

    Wth are you saying?
    Boonbeast even before patch was able to win against condi mirage.

    Now with the recent patch even more.
    If a boonbeast loses to a condi mirage it's a completely handless man, seriously what game are you playing?

    And notice im not a mirage main and i am.not defending it, but trust me boonbeast right now has no hard counter in any 1vs1.

    All the specs i mentioned lose against condi mirage? Yeah now tell that even core thief is hard countered by condi mirage and win a prize xD

    Equal skill level boonbeast should never lose against mirage, even if the boonbeast is lower skill level the chances to win are high.

  • Vicariuz.1605Vicariuz.1605 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 19, 2018

    @losingcontrol.1084 said:

    @Vicariuz.1605 said:

    @losingcontrol.1084 said:
    Boonbeast is way worse right now, and can counter condi mirage pretty easily in any 1vs1, and for now I don't think it has a direct counter, while mirage suffers quite a bit against good holos and boonbeasts and good thieves 100-0 a mirage no problem. Not to mention core guards are rising up and counter condi mirage too.

    all of the classes u just mentioned lose 1v1 to a condi mirage.

    there is this interesting thing where people who do not actually understand match ups regurgitate the narrative they are told without actually testing it.

    boonbeast, conversion holo, s/d thief and core guard all lose 1v1 to condi mirage.

    one of the MAJOR reasons why flandre's team won last month was because boyce (boonbeast) was completely checked by condi mirage forcing him to teamfight on a build that is not suited for the role.

    as far as short's video, that is not the strongest condi build for mirage, torch offhand is the reason why it isnt, there is a better option that puts out FAR more pressure.

    Wth are you saying?
    Boonbeast even before patch was able to win against condi mirage.

    Now with the recent patch even more.
    If a boonbeast loses to a condi mirage it's a completely handless man, seriously what game are you playing?

    And notice im not a mirage main and i am.not defending it, but trust me boonbeast right now has no hard counter in any 1vs1.

    All the specs i mentioned lose against condi mirage? Yeah now tell that even core thief is hard countered by condi mirage and win a prize xD

    Equal skill level boonbeast should never lose against mirage, even if the boonbeast is lower skill level the chances to win are high.

    if you would like to see what im talking about feel free to watch the vod of the last monthly and pay attention to the flandre v boyce match up.
    are you implying that boyce is just bad for losing 1v1 to condi mirage as boonbeast? its very obvious you arent a mirage main, you have no idea what the match ups for the 1v1 are.
    if you would like i will 1v1 you on condi mirage against all of those classes to show you. im on NA feel free to whisper me in game.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @coro.3176 said:

    @Axl.8924 said:
    How about instead of nerfing mesmers condi they first nerf condi cleanses instead of having to wreck another condi spec?

    Seriously, no more breaking specs.

    Anet should rather listen to people who know how the spec performs at max level, so before anymore nerfs happen, I want some information on the performance on all Mesmer specs such as chronomancer core and mirage.

    This should be obvious to them. How many people are playing condi on other classes...

    • engi? approximately zero
    • revenant? approximately zero
    • ranger? approximately zero
    • warrior? approximately zero
    • thief? approximately zero
    • guardian? approximately zero
    • necro? eh, some
    • mesmer? almost all

    Maybe .. just MAYBE it's because condi mirage and to a lesser extent scourge are the only viable condi builds right now.

    Why is this? They're the only ones that can overwhelm the amount of cleanse in the game.

    Solution? Nerf the amount of cleanse in the game until the other builds are playable, then nerf the only 2 overperforming builds down to match the rest.

    Part of the issue is that Anet did really understand the remfications of the blanket nerf to condi damage with increasing duration and lowering stacks across all classes, done a year ago. There were so many related issues, like condi cleanse, requirement for some builds to be in melee without mirage ability to avoid damage. Reliance on 1-2 condis for damage. Anet did not address any of this. They did not even to subsequently try remedy any of these issues, and thus we barely have viable condi builds in PvP. What is even funnier, at the time of the patch, only mirage and scourge as condi builds were meta (plus the occasional thief) and remained so after the nerf. So why did we need the overall condi nerf? I dunno, and there does not seem to be any logical explanations.

    This undoubtedly was the worst decision ever made by Anet balance team. And the balance team has been sucking hard as of late. Ya, they do nerf outperforming stuff most of the time. But it seems unusable skills never get touched. Even worse, some of the nerfs, due to lack of in-depth understanding and/or testing, tend to nerf non-meta builds. This is destroying the already limited diversity the game has.

    As for mirage, I do think that nerfing portal was years overdue. But some of the other nerfs are baffling, like Jaunt nerf or signet of Midnight nerf. And for some reason, mirage in PvE, which was not even meta, was nerfed. I really do not understand why.

  • InsaneQR.7412InsaneQR.7412 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Solori.6025 said:
    Make a boonbeast? Ranger has the best 1v1 specs in the game you shouldnt have an issue.

    Ranger will get the nerfbat next, have fun playing until then.

  • losingcontrol.1084losingcontrol.1084 Member ✭✭
    edited December 20, 2018

    @Vicariuz.1605 said:

    @losingcontrol.1084 said:

    @Vicariuz.1605 said:

    @losingcontrol.1084 said:
    Boonbeast is way worse right now, and can counter condi mirage pretty easily in any 1vs1, and for now I don't think it has a direct counter, while mirage suffers quite a bit against good holos and boonbeasts and good thieves 100-0 a mirage no problem. Not to mention core guards are rising up and counter condi mirage too.

    all of the classes u just mentioned lose 1v1 to a condi mirage.

    there is this interesting thing where people who do not actually understand match ups regurgitate the narrative they are told without actually testing it.

    boonbeast, conversion holo, s/d thief and core guard all lose 1v1 to condi mirage.

    one of the MAJOR reasons why flandre's team won last month was because boyce (boonbeast) was completely checked by condi mirage forcing him to teamfight on a build that is not suited for the role.

    as far as short's video, that is not the strongest condi build for mirage, torch offhand is the reason why it isnt, there is a better option that puts out FAR more pressure.

    Wth are you saying?
    Boonbeast even before patch was able to win against condi mirage.

    Now with the recent patch even more.
    If a boonbeast loses to a condi mirage it's a completely handless man, seriously what game are you playing?

    And notice im not a mirage main and i am.not defending it, but trust me boonbeast right now has no hard counter in any 1vs1.

    All the specs i mentioned lose against condi mirage? Yeah now tell that even core thief is hard countered by condi mirage and win a prize xD

    Equal skill level boonbeast should never lose against mirage, even if the boonbeast is lower skill level the chances to win are high.

    if you would like to see what im talking about feel free to watch the vod of the last monthly and pay attention to the flandre v boyce match up.
    are you implying that boyce is just bad for losing 1v1 to condi mirage as boonbeast? its very obvious you arent a mirage main, you have no idea what the match ups for the 1v1 are.
    if you would like i will 1v1 you on condi mirage against all of those classes to show you. im on NA feel free to whisper me in game.

    Man, tramadex was even able to win as tramawarrior against an holosmith (thysken i guess sorry bad spelling of his name) when actually holo was supposed to be an hard counter to tramawar(tetherwarrior). So that doesn't mean anything.

    At that high level of gameplay things like that happens.

    With the recent buffs to dolyak no way a good boonbeast loses against a condi mirage.
    I don't know what rank you are but have clearly no idea, and a single match where boyce loses to a condi mirage doesn't mean anything at all.

    Sorry im on eu.

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @otto.5684 said:

    @coro.3176 said:

    @Axl.8924 said:
    How about instead of nerfing mesmers condi they first nerf condi cleanses instead of having to wreck another condi spec?

    Seriously, no more breaking specs.

    Anet should rather listen to people who know how the spec performs at max level, so before anymore nerfs happen, I want some information on the performance on all Mesmer specs such as chronomancer core and mirage.

    This should be obvious to them. How many people are playing condi on other classes...

    • engi? approximately zero
    • revenant? approximately zero
    • ranger? approximately zero
    • warrior? approximately zero
    • thief? approximately zero
    • guardian? approximately zero
    • necro? eh, some
    • mesmer? almost all

    Maybe .. just MAYBE it's because condi mirage and to a lesser extent scourge are the only viable condi builds right now.

    Why is this? They're the only ones that can overwhelm the amount of cleanse in the game.

    Solution? Nerf the amount of cleanse in the game until the other builds are playable, then nerf the only 2 overperforming builds down to match the rest.

    Part of the issue is that Anet did really understand the remfications of the blanket nerf to condi damage with increasing duration and lowering stacks across all classes, done a year ago. There were so many related issues, like condi cleanse, requirement for some builds to be in melee without mirage ability to avoid damage. Reliance on 1-2 condis for damage. Anet did not address any of this. They did not even to subsequently try remedy any of these issues, and thus we barely have viable condi builds in PvP. What is even funnier, at the time of the patch, only mirage and scourge as condi builds were meta (plus the occasional thief) and remained so after the nerf. So why did we need the overall condi nerf? I dunno, and there does not seem to be any logical explanations.

    This undoubtedly was the worst decision ever made by Anet balance team. And the balance team has been sucking hard as of late. Ya, they do nerf outperforming stuff most of the time. But it seems unusable skills never get touched. Even worse, some of the nerfs, due to lack of in-depth understanding and/or testing, tend to nerf non-meta builds. This is destroying the already limited diversity the game has.

    As for mirage, I do think that nerfing portal was years overdue. But some of the other nerfs are baffling, like Jaunt nerf or signet of Midnight nerf. And for some reason, mirage in PvE, which was not even meta, was nerfed. I really do not understand why.

    It's unclear whether it's that condition builds are so bad after the nerfs or whether it's a case that the power builds are so much better in every way.

    It's obvious that the 2 strongest condition builds would be considered overpowered when looking at only condition builds vs condition builds. If you were comparing condition builds that aren't condi mirage or scourge they might be slightly under performing after progressive buffs to SOME clears on SOME classes over time since HoT and PoF due to the creep in condition application and then subsequent nerfs to application.

    It's very difficult to really get a handle on the state of condition builds while power options are so much better. Even then not every class/build is equal in condition management for the playstyle/build they need. Example, thieves and mesmer's roles suffer considerably for taking more condition cleansing as they need to trait for damage. By comparison a guardian gets greater condition management while enabling an offensive style through double smite condition and monks focus with Virtues line offering management while giving excellent utility in general to all playstyles.

  • Vicariuz.1605Vicariuz.1605 Member ✭✭✭

    @losingcontrol.1084 said:

    @Vicariuz.1605 said:

    @losingcontrol.1084 said:

    @Vicariuz.1605 said:

    @losingcontrol.1084 said:
    Boonbeast is way worse right now, and can counter condi mirage pretty easily in any 1vs1, and for now I don't think it has a direct counter, while mirage suffers quite a bit against good holos and boonbeasts and good thieves 100-0 a mirage no problem. Not to mention core guards are rising up and counter condi mirage too.

    all of the classes u just mentioned lose 1v1 to a condi mirage.

    there is this interesting thing where people who do not actually understand match ups regurgitate the narrative they are told without actually testing it.

    boonbeast, conversion holo, s/d thief and core guard all lose 1v1 to condi mirage.

    one of the MAJOR reasons why flandre's team won last month was because boyce (boonbeast) was completely checked by condi mirage forcing him to teamfight on a build that is not suited for the role.

    as far as short's video, that is not the strongest condi build for mirage, torch offhand is the reason why it isnt, there is a better option that puts out FAR more pressure.

    Wth are you saying?
    Boonbeast even before patch was able to win against condi mirage.

    Now with the recent patch even more.
    If a boonbeast loses to a condi mirage it's a completely handless man, seriously what game are you playing?

    And notice im not a mirage main and i am.not defending it, but trust me boonbeast right now has no hard counter in any 1vs1.

    All the specs i mentioned lose against condi mirage? Yeah now tell that even core thief is hard countered by condi mirage and win a prize xD

    Equal skill level boonbeast should never lose against mirage, even if the boonbeast is lower skill level the chances to win are high.

    if you would like to see what im talking about feel free to watch the vod of the last monthly and pay attention to the flandre v boyce match up.
    are you implying that boyce is just bad for losing 1v1 to condi mirage as boonbeast? its very obvious you arent a mirage main, you have no idea what the match ups for the 1v1 are.
    if you would like i will 1v1 you on condi mirage against all of those classes to show you. im on NA feel free to whisper me in game.

    Man, tramadex was even able to win as tramawarrior against an holosmith (thysken i guess sorry bad spelling of his name) when actually holo was supposed to be an hard counter to tramawar(tetherwarrior). So that doesn't mean anything.

    At that high level of gameplay things like that happens.

    With the recent buffs to dolyak no way a good boonbeast loses against a condi mirage.
    I don't know what rank you are but have clearly no idea, and a single match where boyce loses to a condi mirage doesn't mean anything at all.

    Sorry im on eu.

    im top 50 on eu right now and regularly legend/plat 3 on NA (have top 25/200/250 titles for na)

    my eu acct is core only otherwise i would show you there.

    since u wont take my word for it, ask flandre to show u.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @otto.5684 said:

    @coro.3176 said:

    @Axl.8924 said:
    How about instead of nerfing mesmers condi they first nerf condi cleanses instead of having to wreck another condi spec?

    Seriously, no more breaking specs.

    Anet should rather listen to people who know how the spec performs at max level, so before anymore nerfs happen, I want some information on the performance on all Mesmer specs such as chronomancer core and mirage.

    This should be obvious to them. How many people are playing condi on other classes...

    • engi? approximately zero
    • revenant? approximately zero
    • ranger? approximately zero
    • warrior? approximately zero
    • thief? approximately zero
    • guardian? approximately zero
    • necro? eh, some
    • mesmer? almost all

    Maybe .. just MAYBE it's because condi mirage and to a lesser extent scourge are the only viable condi builds right now.

    Why is this? They're the only ones that can overwhelm the amount of cleanse in the game.

    Solution? Nerf the amount of cleanse in the game until the other builds are playable, then nerf the only 2 overperforming builds down to match the rest.

    Part of the issue is that Anet did really understand the remfications of the blanket nerf to condi damage with increasing duration and lowering stacks across all classes, done a year ago. There were so many related issues, like condi cleanse, requirement for some builds to be in melee without mirage ability to avoid damage. Reliance on 1-2 condis for damage. Anet did not address any of this. They did not even to subsequently try remedy any of these issues, and thus we barely have viable condi builds in PvP. What is even funnier, at the time of the patch, only mirage and scourge as condi builds were meta (plus the occasional thief) and remained so after the nerf. So why did we need the overall condi nerf? I dunno, and there does not seem to be any logical explanations.

    This undoubtedly was the worst decision ever made by Anet balance team. And the balance team has been sucking hard as of late. Ya, they do nerf outperforming stuff most of the time. But it seems unusable skills never get touched. Even worse, some of the nerfs, due to lack of in-depth understanding and/or testing, tend to nerf non-meta builds. This is destroying the already limited diversity the game has.

    As for mirage, I do think that nerfing portal was years overdue. But some of the other nerfs are baffling, like Jaunt nerf or signet of Midnight nerf. And for some reason, mirage in PvE, which was not even meta, was nerfed. I really do not understand why.

    It's unclear whether it's that condition builds are so bad after the nerfs or whether it's a case that the power builds are so much better in every way.

    It's obvious that the 2 strongest condition builds would be considered overpowered when looking at only condition builds vs condition builds. If you were comparing condition builds that aren't condi mirage or scourge they might be slightly under performing after progressive buffs to SOME clears on SOME classes over time since HoT and PoF due to the creep in condition application and then subsequent nerfs to application.

    It's very difficult to really get a handle on the state of condition builds while power options are so much better. Even then not every class/build is equal in condition management for the playstyle/build they need. Example, thieves and mesmer's roles suffer considerably for taking more condition cleansing as they need to trait for damage. By comparison a guardian gets greater condition management while enabling an offensive style through double smite condition and monks focus with Virtues line offering management while giving excellent utility in general to all playstyles.

    While there has been an increase in overall damage since PoF, the primary reason that power options are so much better now, is that most condi builds take way too much time to kill anything. They can still somewhat work in isolation (1v1 or small encounter). In team fights, they do not pose enough pressure. Even if we nerf most power builds tomorrow, I cannot think of any condi build that can do well in a team fights except scourge or mirage (more so in team fights).

    Contrary to the believe, condi builds need to be bursty to pose a threat. The concept of damage over time does not work when most classes can nullify most of the incoming damage for prolonged periods.

    The game has fundamental issues with condi damage, HP pools, boon application and boon RIP. The massaging patches Anet have been doing lately do not fix kitten. This is why the meta has been extremely stagnant.

  • @apharma.3741 said:
    I'm glad they took care of all these power mesmers going around trying to one shot people but not being able to because it's just not good outside of stealth gank. This was easily the change needed for mesmer. 10/10 best patch ever, see you in AoC.

    I still do it XD with power mirage

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 20, 2018

    @otto.5684 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @otto.5684 said:

    @coro.3176 said:

    @Axl.8924 said:
    How about instead of nerfing mesmers condi they first nerf condi cleanses instead of having to wreck another condi spec?

    Seriously, no more breaking specs.

    Anet should rather listen to people who know how the spec performs at max level, so before anymore nerfs happen, I want some information on the performance on all Mesmer specs such as chronomancer core and mirage.

    This should be obvious to them. How many people are playing condi on other classes...

    • engi? approximately zero
    • revenant? approximately zero
    • ranger? approximately zero
    • warrior? approximately zero
    • thief? approximately zero
    • guardian? approximately zero
    • necro? eh, some
    • mesmer? almost all

    Maybe .. just MAYBE it's because condi mirage and to a lesser extent scourge are the only viable condi builds right now.

    Why is this? They're the only ones that can overwhelm the amount of cleanse in the game.

    Solution? Nerf the amount of cleanse in the game until the other builds are playable, then nerf the only 2 overperforming builds down to match the rest.

    Part of the issue is that Anet did really understand the remfications of the blanket nerf to condi damage with increasing duration and lowering stacks across all classes, done a year ago. There were so many related issues, like condi cleanse, requirement for some builds to be in melee without mirage ability to avoid damage. Reliance on 1-2 condis for damage. Anet did not address any of this. They did not even to subsequently try remedy any of these issues, and thus we barely have viable condi builds in PvP. What is even funnier, at the time of the patch, only mirage and scourge as condi builds were meta (plus the occasional thief) and remained so after the nerf. So why did we need the overall condi nerf? I dunno, and there does not seem to be any logical explanations.

    This undoubtedly was the worst decision ever made by Anet balance team. And the balance team has been sucking hard as of late. Ya, they do nerf outperforming stuff most of the time. But it seems unusable skills never get touched. Even worse, some of the nerfs, due to lack of in-depth understanding and/or testing, tend to nerf non-meta builds. This is destroying the already limited diversity the game has.

    As for mirage, I do think that nerfing portal was years overdue. But some of the other nerfs are baffling, like Jaunt nerf or signet of Midnight nerf. And for some reason, mirage in PvE, which was not even meta, was nerfed. I really do not understand why.

    It's unclear whether it's that condition builds are so bad after the nerfs or whether it's a case that the power builds are so much better in every way.

    It's obvious that the 2 strongest condition builds would be considered overpowered when looking at only condition builds vs condition builds. If you were comparing condition builds that aren't condi mirage or scourge they might be slightly under performing after progressive buffs to SOME clears on SOME classes over time since HoT and PoF due to the creep in condition application and then subsequent nerfs to application.

    It's very difficult to really get a handle on the state of condition builds while power options are so much better. Even then not every class/build is equal in condition management for the playstyle/build they need. Example, thieves and mesmer's roles suffer considerably for taking more condition cleansing as they need to trait for damage. By comparison a guardian gets greater condition management while enabling an offensive style through double smite condition and monks focus with Virtues line offering management while giving excellent utility in general to all playstyles.

    While there has been an increase in overall damage since PoF, the primary reason that power options are so much better now, is that most condi builds take way too much time to kill anything. They can still somewhat work in isolation (1v1 or small encounter). In team fights, they do not pose enough pressure. Even if we nerf most power builds tomorrow, I cannot think of any condi build that can do well in a team fights except scourge or mirage (more so in team fights).

    Contrary to the believe, condi builds need to be bursty to pose a threat. The concept of damage over time does not work when most classes can nullify most of the incoming damage for prolonged periods.

    The game has fundamental issues with condi damage, HP pools, boon application and boon RIP. The massaging patches Anet have been doing lately do not fix kitten. This is why the meta has been extremely stagnant.

    Which is why I said one you have to get rid of most condi cleanses, and two: You need long duration condies that are hard to clear but last long enough that if forgotten about or not paid attention to, will kill you, somewhat like in wow.

    its kinda hard to pull off though, since every class has a different kind of condi, and some do more damage than others.

    Bleeds being the least ones
    Burns and torments being the most.

    Every other type is just some sort of offensive thing known as a debuff in other games, or some thing that only works in very specific situations, like:Poison lowering healing, and what did confuse do again? it makes you hurt yourself if you attack?

    I feel some specs are going to need some condis either to be more standardized, or the ability to place large amount of 1 kind of condi to actually harm. 3 or 4 bleeds wont kill anyone, but 20 might.

    At the same time, I also think its a bad idea for condi specs to insta burs, because we will be back to the mess we had previously. Anet did right in nerfing condis, but they should have also nerfed cleanses. Nerf the cleanses, we will be better, since we wont have condis that insta burst making the game no fun, and we wont have cleanses instantly nullifying all condition based builds.

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • gateless gate.8406gateless gate.8406 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 20, 2018

    Mirage remains a fundamentally toxic class design (in PVP): Stealth, blink, clones, evasion, damage over time.

    In virtually all serious competitive games, those elements are designed VERY carefully lest a class get out of control. Even if their numbers are tuned low, they can make PVP fundamentally obnoxious, frustrating, and unfun. In GW2, those elements have instead all been piled into one class. Very, very bad decision and it will continue to drag down PVP participation.

  • coro.3176coro.3176 Member ✭✭✭

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @otto.5684 said:

    @coro.3176 said:

    @Axl.8924 said:
    How about instead of nerfing mesmers condi they first nerf condi cleanses instead of having to wreck another condi spec?

    Seriously, no more breaking specs.

    Anet should rather listen to people who know how the spec performs at max level, so before anymore nerfs happen, I want some information on the performance on all Mesmer specs such as chronomancer core and mirage.

    This should be obvious to them. How many people are playing condi on other classes...

    • engi? approximately zero
    • revenant? approximately zero
    • ranger? approximately zero
    • warrior? approximately zero
    • thief? approximately zero
    • guardian? approximately zero
    • necro? eh, some
    • mesmer? almost all

    Maybe .. just MAYBE it's because condi mirage and to a lesser extent scourge are the only viable condi builds right now.

    Why is this? They're the only ones that can overwhelm the amount of cleanse in the game.

    Solution? Nerf the amount of cleanse in the game until the other builds are playable, then nerf the only 2 overperforming builds down to match the rest.

    Part of the issue is that Anet did really understand the remfications of the blanket nerf to condi damage with increasing duration and lowering stacks across all classes, done a year ago. There were so many related issues, like condi cleanse, requirement for some builds to be in melee without mirage ability to avoid damage. Reliance on 1-2 condis for damage. Anet did not address any of this. They did not even to subsequently try remedy any of these issues, and thus we barely have viable condi builds in PvP. What is even funnier, at the time of the patch, only mirage and scourge as condi builds were meta (plus the occasional thief) and remained so after the nerf. So why did we need the overall condi nerf? I dunno, and there does not seem to be any logical explanations.

    This undoubtedly was the worst decision ever made by Anet balance team. And the balance team has been sucking hard as of late. Ya, they do nerf outperforming stuff most of the time. But it seems unusable skills never get touched. Even worse, some of the nerfs, due to lack of in-depth understanding and/or testing, tend to nerf non-meta builds. This is destroying the already limited diversity the game has.

    As for mirage, I do think that nerfing portal was years overdue. But some of the other nerfs are baffling, like Jaunt nerf or signet of Midnight nerf. And for some reason, mirage in PvE, which was not even meta, was nerfed. I really do not understand why.

    It's unclear whether it's that condition builds are so bad after the nerfs or whether it's a case that the power builds are so much better in every way.

    It's obvious that the 2 strongest condition builds would be considered overpowered when looking at only condition builds vs condition builds. If you were comparing condition builds that aren't condi mirage or scourge they might be slightly under performing after progressive buffs to SOME clears on SOME classes over time since HoT and PoF due to the creep in condition application and then subsequent nerfs to application.

    It's very difficult to really get a handle on the state of condition builds while power options are so much better. Even then not every class/build is equal in condition management for the playstyle/build they need. Example, thieves and mesmer's roles suffer considerably for taking more condition cleansing as they need to trait for damage. By comparison a guardian gets greater condition management while enabling an offensive style through double smite condition and monks focus with Virtues line offering management while giving excellent utility in general to all playstyles.

    You raise a good point. If all the power burst disappeared tomorrow (say, back to ~2015 levels), it'd be tough to say if condi could find a foothold.

    .. but I think the answer is still no.

    The existence of certain cleansing traits make it all but impossible for any condi build that isn't mirage (because of the constant reapplication + burst) or scourge (because of the corrupt) to make a dent in them - especially the ones that cleanse from allies as well because that just multiplies the amount of cleanse in a teamfight. It shouldn't be the case that 1-2 supports in a teamfight can effectively nullify ALL condi damage by cleansing allies. If we want to have supports cleansing allies, that's fine, but then we also need to reduce some of the personal cleanse that dps specs have.

    There are things like the Rune of Evasion + Woven Stride + Cleansing Water synergy which is just constant cleanse. There's Wilderness Knowledge on a Survival Skill build. There's Anticorrosion Plating combined with all the protection Holo has access to. There's Shake It Off in addition to Cleansing Ire and Berserker's Stance. The amount of cleanse available to classes is truly insane. Right now, people only run maybe a third of what they could. Non-mirage, non-scourge condi builds can never be popular while that kind of cleanse exists in the game. .. They would need so much more cover condi, it'd be ridiculous. Every condi build autoattack would have to apply like 3 conditions.. That's not healthy gameplay. I would much prefer long conditions and low cleanse.

    On my engi build, I get by with a single cleansing skill every 20s that cleanses 2 conditions - healing turret. Everything else, I survive by avoiding or blocking the condi attacks themselves. IMO that's how it should be. You shouldn't eat the condi attacks all day and cleanse on repeat. You should have to avoid them like you do with power.

  • @Burnfall.9573 said:

    @phokus.8934 said:

    @Burnfall.9573 said:

    @everyman.4375 said:

    @Burnfall.9573 said:

    @Kilar.4791 said:

    @everyman.4375 said:
    There's already another post saying the exact same thing and 2000 saying relatively the same thing so why do you feel the need to create another post ?
    I think you should just ask a mesmer player to help you understand the class and do some duels, after less than an hour of playing you'll understand that mesmer is not just applying conditions over and over.

    He made this post to cry, not to learn.

    It is not his job to learn. Once again; It is Anet job to finally take a stand that this ongoing epidemic has negatively impacted any remaining fun-factor in the game competitive scenery.

    Mesmer must hit rock bottom again. Except this time, in the right way

    "Once you hit rock bottom, that's where you perfectly stand; That's your chance of restarting, but restarting the right way"

    It's not his job to learn but if he doesn't he has no right to complain.

    He including everyone else including myself in Guild Wars 2 6 years run, has the right to complain about Mesmer toxicity and its bad design

    Here is a 5 years old video of a duel between an elementalist vs a condi mesmer. You be the judge

    You’re complaining about Revenant damage from hammer and wanting it nerfed.

    You’re clearly a subpar player who needs to look at his own game play mechanics and flat out, get better.

    Stop complaining in life and actually take the time to figure things out instead of having others do it for you.

    "Customer complaints are important"

    "And there’s no better way to collect direct feedback from your customers and improve your product or service.

    However, the way you handle a complaint is the difference between keeping a customer or losing one. So, the next time you receive a customer complaint, listen to what the customer has to say, apologize (!), find a solution and follow up to see if he or she is happy with the way you are handling it.

    In doing so, you are on your way to creating more loyal customers, improving your product and delivering a better quality of customer service."


    "When a customer makes a complaint, he or she is voicing a concern in relation to your product or service. However, not all complaints are to be treated equally and there are several questions to ask yourself before you take action, including":

    Has this happened before?
    Have the complaints been recorded?
    How often does the same compliant arise?
    Is there a pattern to this complaint in how it was received?
    Has the same customer reported this previously?
    By answering these questions, you can take the necessary steps required to prevent them from happening again.

    "Nobody cares about complaints when they already have your money"

    Critical Kit, Deadeye.

  • @Vicariuz.1605 said:

    @losingcontrol.1084 said:

    @Vicariuz.1605 said:

    @losingcontrol.1084 said:
    Boonbeast is way worse right now, and can counter condi mirage pretty easily in any 1vs1, and for now I don't think it has a direct counter, while mirage suffers quite a bit against good holos and boonbeasts and good thieves 100-0 a mirage no problem. Not to mention core guards are rising up and counter condi mirage too.

    all of the classes u just mentioned lose 1v1 to a condi mirage.

    there is this interesting thing where people who do not actually understand match ups regurgitate the narrative they are told without actually testing it.

    boonbeast, conversion holo, s/d thief and core guard all lose 1v1 to condi mirage.

    one of the MAJOR reasons why flandre's team won last month was because boyce (boonbeast) was completely checked by condi mirage forcing him to teamfight on a build that is not suited for the role.

    as far as short's video, that is not the strongest condi build for mirage, torch offhand is the reason why it isnt, there is a better option that puts out FAR more pressure.

    Wth are you saying?
    Boonbeast even before patch was able to win against condi mirage.

    Now with the recent patch even more.
    If a boonbeast loses to a condi mirage it's a completely handless man, seriously what game are you playing?

    And notice im not a mirage main and i am.not defending it, but trust me boonbeast right now has no hard counter in any 1vs1.

    All the specs i mentioned lose against condi mirage? Yeah now tell that even core thief is hard countered by condi mirage and win a prize xD

    Equal skill level boonbeast should never lose against mirage, even if the boonbeast is lower skill level the chances to win are high.

    if you would like to see what im talking about feel free to watch the vod of the last monthly and pay attention to the flandre v boyce match up.
    are you implying that boyce is just bad for losing 1v1 to condi mirage as boonbeast? its very obvious you arent a mirage main, you have no idea what the match ups for the 1v1 are.
    if you would like i will 1v1 you on condi mirage against all of those classes to show you. im on NA feel free to whisper me in game.

    Yo, i just checked the monthly vod, can you actually link us the exact timestamp where the boonbeast lost 1v1 to a mes ? Because i failed to spot that.

  • @Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

    @Burnfall.9573 said:

    @phokus.8934 said:

    @Burnfall.9573 said:

    @everyman.4375 said:

    @Burnfall.9573 said:

    @Kilar.4791 said:

    @everyman.4375 said:
    There's already another post saying the exact same thing and 2000 saying relatively the same thing so why do you feel the need to create another post ?
    I think you should just ask a mesmer player to help you understand the class and do some duels, after less than an hour of playing you'll understand that mesmer is not just applying conditions over and over.

    He made this post to cry, not to learn.

    It is not his job to learn. Once again; It is Anet job to finally take a stand that this ongoing epidemic has negatively impacted any remaining fun-factor in the game competitive scenery.

    Mesmer must hit rock bottom again. Except this time, in the right way

    "Once you hit rock bottom, that's where you perfectly stand; That's your chance of restarting, but restarting the right way"

    It's not his job to learn but if he doesn't he has no right to complain.

    He including everyone else including myself in Guild Wars 2 6 years run, has the right to complain about Mesmer toxicity and its bad design

    Here is a 5 years old video of a duel between an elementalist vs a condi mesmer. You be the judge

    You’re complaining about Revenant damage from hammer and wanting it nerfed.

    You’re clearly a subpar player who needs to look at his own game play mechanics and flat out, get better.

    Stop complaining in life and actually take the time to figure things out instead of having others do it for you.

    "Customer complaints are important"

    "And there’s no better way to collect direct feedback from your customers and improve your product or service.

    However, the way you handle a complaint is the difference between keeping a customer or losing one. So, the next time you receive a customer complaint, listen to what the customer has to say, apologize (!), find a solution and follow up to see if he or she is happy with the way you are handling it.

    In doing so, you are on your way to creating more loyal customers, improving your product and delivering a better quality of customer service."


    "When a customer makes a complaint, he or she is voicing a concern in relation to your product or service. However, not all complaints are to be treated equally and there are several questions to ask yourself before you take action, including":

    Has this happened before?
    Have the complaints been recorded?
    How often does the same compliant arise?
    Is there a pattern to this complaint in how it was received?
    Has the same customer reported this previously?
    By answering these questions, you can take the necessary steps required to prevent them from happening again.

    "Nobody cares about complaints when they already have your money"

    "Nobody cares about your complaints when you're playing their game for free."

  • @Eddy Law.2874 said:

    @Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

    @Burnfall.9573 said:

    @phokus.8934 said:

    @Burnfall.9573 said:

    @everyman.4375 said:

    @Burnfall.9573 said:

    @Kilar.4791 said:

    @everyman.4375 said:
    There's already another post saying the exact same thing and 2000 saying relatively the same thing so why do you feel the need to create another post ?
    I think you should just ask a mesmer player to help you understand the class and do some duels, after less than an hour of playing you'll understand that mesmer is not just applying conditions over and over.

    He made this post to cry, not to learn.

    It is not his job to learn. Once again; It is Anet job to finally take a stand that this ongoing epidemic has negatively impacted any remaining fun-factor in the game competitive scenery.

    Mesmer must hit rock bottom again. Except this time, in the right way

    "Once you hit rock bottom, that's where you perfectly stand; That's your chance of restarting, but restarting the right way"

    It's not his job to learn but if he doesn't he has no right to complain.

    He including everyone else including myself in Guild Wars 2 6 years run, has the right to complain about Mesmer toxicity and its bad design

    Here is a 5 years old video of a duel between an elementalist vs a condi mesmer. You be the judge

    You’re complaining about Revenant damage from hammer and wanting it nerfed.

    You’re clearly a subpar player who needs to look at his own game play mechanics and flat out, get better.

    Stop complaining in life and actually take the time to figure things out instead of having others do it for you.

    "Customer complaints are important"

    "And there’s no better way to collect direct feedback from your customers and improve your product or service.

    However, the way you handle a complaint is the difference between keeping a customer or losing one. So, the next time you receive a customer complaint, listen to what the customer has to say, apologize (!), find a solution and follow up to see if he or she is happy with the way you are handling it.

    In doing so, you are on your way to creating more loyal customers, improving your product and delivering a better quality of customer service."


    "When a customer makes a complaint, he or she is voicing a concern in relation to your product or service. However, not all complaints are to be treated equally and there are several questions to ask yourself before you take action, including":

    Has this happened before?
    Have the complaints been recorded?
    How often does the same compliant arise?
    Is there a pattern to this complaint in how it was received?
    Has the same customer reported this previously?
    By answering these questions, you can take the necessary steps required to prevent them from happening again.

    "Nobody cares about complaints when they already have your money"

    "Nobody cares about your complaints when you're playing their game for free."

    I was more commenting on Burnfall's use of quotation marks. Quite honestly, while people are right to complain about condi mirage being too strong, they're complaining about the wrong thing still, so mirage mains are right to mock it.

    Critical Kit, Deadeye.

  • Scar.1793Scar.1793 Member ✭✭✭

    The pvp/wvw in this game itself is braindead tbh. Dunno why people waste their time here.

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