So, who's playing the new Dagger Training?

Nobody. Or at least nobody should be. It's worse than it was before lol.

Well it's not something I'd consider, but I will try it out of curiosity anyway. I think it's just going to be an avg 'filler' utility. I'll give it a shot anyhow.

The skill is at best marginal.

If they made it 80+(80+80) for a maximum of 240 with two equippd daggers or increased the duration of poison to 4 seconds it might be usable but as is I can not envision using it.

I'm using it with rifle/dp.

@babazhook.6805 said:The skill is at best marginal.

If they made it 80+(80+80) for a maximum of 240 with two equippd daggers or increased the duration of poison to 4 seconds it might be usable but as is I can not envision using it.

The max power you can get is always 160. I have tried D/D and I get 160, not 240. Is +80 (base) and +80 if you equip a dagger: if you equip two daggers is always +80 (base) and +80 for the dagger.

@SehferViega.8725 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:The skill is at best marginal.

If they made it 80+(80+80) for a maximum of 240 with two equippd daggers or increased the duration of poison to 4 seconds it might be usable but as is I can not envision using it.

Sorry to calrify, I am saying it SHOULD get the extra 80 out of the second dagger. D/D is a hard set to use and they should have added this as well.

It's not too shabby when using S/D and taking both Dagger Training (+160 power) and Swindler (+240 power).

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:It's not too shabby when using S/D and taking both Dagger Training (+160 power) and Swindler (+240 power).

i do that. 400 more power

@babazhook.6805 said:

@SehferViega.8725 said:

My fault, my fault: I've read wrong ;D

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:It's not too shabby when using S/D and taking both Dagger Training (+160 power) and Swindler (+240 power).

This and or using the s/p Combo might help the hybrid build types out in relative terms.

It interesting that in order to leverage maximum power out of an s/p combo one would go CS and out of s/d one would go DA along with the acro.

On raid Rifle Deadeye, its the best in slot trait for damage and brings it to the literal highest single target damage bench in the game, regardless of hit box size.

So ... I'm using it, to say the least :)

Is it worth to use in a S/D setup? Since you loose the damage + heal form steal?

@Derenaya.3479 said:Is it worth to use in a S/D setup? Since you loose the damage + heal form steal?

In terms of DPS, Mug only deals damage every Steal (approx. every 20s) while Dagger Training deal damage every skill use. Think about it. As for the heal, it's the trade-off.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Derenaya.3479 said:Is it worth to use in a S/D setup? Since you loose the damage + heal form steal?

In terms of DPS, the old trait was substantially better.

160 power doesn't mean anything when you have over 4k and a ton of external damage modifiers.

@DeceiverX.8361 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@"Derenaya.3479" said:Is it worth to use in a S/D setup? Since you loose the damage + heal form steal?

The question was, "was DT worth trading for Mug?", the answer is yes.

Now you are comparing between old and new DT, which is pointless since old DT is gone forever. They will never bring it back.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@DeceiverX.8361 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@"Derenaya.3479" said:Is it worth to use in a S/D setup? Since you loose the damage + heal form steal?

The question was if it was worth using on S/D over Mug specifically. Nothing said about DPS being the goal. That depends on the previous person to clarify their intentions.I'm going to make a pretty reasonable assumption here and say that I doubt many people are optimizing for DPS on S/D, considering the huge damage loss it has in relation to MH dagger and in relation to S/P.

Simply, Mug is always better in the PvP modes for all builds because its burst gains are astronomically higher than anything DT offers especially for S/D with Steal resets from SwEq; even when looking at damage and damage alone it's comparable; Mug out-damages DT this way in a lot of fairly realistic scenarios (approx. +2s delayed use of steal each reset to use as an interrupt, heal, reposition, etc.) where the thief is dealing less than 3.5-6k damage per second (depending on stats, enemy stats, and game mode), which thanks to evasion frames, immunity/damage negation effects, protection, and so on, is reasonable to be the case.

Quite literally, the only use case for DT now is raids/sustained DPS using MH dagger. Even if it provided +240 power it'd pretty consistently be a net loss when compared to Mug's burst damage as well.

Dagger training It literally got worse, and not like anyone was really using it.

There is no point of skipping mug in pvp, in pve yeah it works

@DeceiverX.8361 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@DeceiverX.8361 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@"Derenaya.3479" said:Is it worth to use in a S/D setup? Since you loose the damage + heal form steal?

Well, I did say that "in terms of DPS", so...

I'm going to make a pretty reasonable assumption here and say that I doubt many people are optimizing for DPS on S/D, considering the huge damage loss it has in relation to MH dagger and in relation to S/P.

If you're not optimizing for DPS using S/D, then what are you building it for? Why even use it?

Simply, Mug is always better in the PvP modes for all builds because its burst gains are astronomically higher than anything DT offers especially for S/D with Steal resets from SwEq; even when looking at damage and damage alone it's comparable; Mug out-damages DT this way in a lot of fairly realistic scenarios (approx. +2s delayed use of steal each reset to use as an interrupt, heal, reposition, etc.) where the thief is dealing less than 3.5-6k damage per second (depending on stats, enemy stats, and game mode), which thanks to evasion frames, immunity/damage negation effects, protection, and so on, is reasonable to be the case.

I'm not so sure about "Mug out damaging DT" since Mug doesn't contribute to any of your weapon skills. DT improves the damage of FS/LS and that alone proves that it's better in terms of DPS. Every single weapon skill's damage is improved by DT. Mug's appeal is the free heal, that's why it's a trade off.

Quite literally, the only use case for DT now is raids/sustained DPS using MH dagger. Even if it provided +240 power it'd pretty consistently be a net loss when compared to Mug's burst damage as well.

I would agree if Mug can crit.

For D/P builds I think Mug is better as it's often included in your opening spike when you +1 a fight. For S/D I'd argue that DT is better since it doesn't rely on the damage spike from Mug as much. Because it can reasonably avoid damage better as well, the heal from Mug is comparatively less valuable too.Comparing it to how it was before is pointless btw, the modifier is not coming back. It would be equally valid to compare it to the version of DT that only had Poison.

I've been trying DT over Mug with S/D, it's quite nice but it's difficult for me to spot whether it actually made a difference in a fight over Mug. As in was this fight won/lost because I took DT over Mug?

What is however quite annoying is, that without Mug I can sometimes have hard time spotting whether I did land steal or not, in the usual clutter I either don't notice the Interrupt if it happened or not, sometimes when attacking the same profession I just fought I can't tell if I got the Stolen item and can now use it twice or not (if more than 20sec passed).

So I guess sometimes the simplicity and "utility" of Mug is better, but I still believe that the need to take Mug is just a Mindset burnt in to brain over the long years of unchanged meta.

@"Alatar.7364" said:So I guess sometimes the simplicity and "utility" of Mug is better, but I still believe that the need to take Mug is just a Mindset burnt in to brain over the long years of unchanged meta.

Mug is really good for its heal and it is quite a trade off if you choose to get more damage.

Swindler and Mug used to work well together, but the fact that Swindler only refreshes Steal now at 50% instead of 100% really is a big nerf to Mug's damage output.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@"Alatar.7364" said:So I guess sometimes the simplicity and "utility" of Mug is better, but I still believe that the

need

to take Mug is just a Mindset burnt in to brain over the long years of unchanged meta.

In sPvP it's been 50% for quite a while now, though. Now it's 25% every 10secs (when they fix the icd bug).

@Alatar.7364 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Alatar.7364 said:So I guess sometimes the simplicity and "utility" of Mug is better, but I still believe that the

need

to take Mug is just a Mindset burnt in to brain over the long years of unchanged meta.

Yeah, in PvP it would be a buff if you can evade every 10s (when they fix the icd bug, of course) since that reduces your waiting time by 10s.

i actually disagree with most people on this thread,

I play D/P SB daredevilIf my math was right when i was making adjustments to my build (which it might not be lol), DT offered a substantial boost in dmg over mug when the added power gets capitalized on by your precision and ferocity and the healing from mug was nice to have but rarely changed the game. if i needed it to stay alive, i was usually not playing well enough and shouldnt have been in that situation to begin with. the added poison application helped an unexpected amount against warriors/spell breakers and when combined with revealed training you can have some truly explosive damage, continued enemy healing mitigation almost passively, and your sacrificing situational traights for something that serves the classes role more appropriately.

mug usually only hits for 1-2k damage, and on a single burst i usually get about 7 hits in using BP+HS+PI(from steal)+BS+one full autoattack combo(3 hits).if 160 power only adds 160dmg per hit (which i believe it adds a bit more with crits included) your looking at 1120 dmg. so you pretty much got your dmg back out of mug but get added poison at the loss of the 2k heal every 20 seconds. now that wouldnt be the best trade but when you factor all the hits in a fight lets say that lasts one minute you usually end up trading that 2k heal for another 4k damage +consistant poison application. then if you run revealed training on top of it your damage actually gets quite good. almost pre-auto nerf good. revealed training is something that i take if no DE are on the enemy team. for DE you kinda need panic strike to pin them down. but when fighting things that reveal you like rangers and holos they are only making you stronger.

just my 2c on why im running it. for perspective my rating currently is high gold, although i always seem to finish a season plat 1-2 but outside the top 250.