So I asked this question

A long time ago.What happens when you nerf chrono, what will end up taking it's place. Will the meta be better, or will raiding ( and fractals) end up in a worse spot?Now Chrono got the proverbial Axe execution style.Does this make raiding more diverse.Will this make casual T4 CM better?Does the meta comp become more inclusive?Discuss!!

Nothing will change. Mistakes will just be more noticeable, and probably in some CM cases, more unforgiving. No more chronos carrying the group. Everybody must now pull their own weight.

You can problably use Firebrand and Renegade instead of Chrono and Druid

The Meta will be quieter with less purple, and less pink explosions. I’ve wanted this for so long.

@Solori.6025 said:A long time ago.What happens when you nerf chrono, what will end up taking it's place. Will the meta be better, or will raiding ( and fractals) end up in a worse spot?Comparing with?Now Chrono got the proverbial Axe execution style.Chrono? Or Mirage?Does this make raiding more diverse.Will this make casual T4 CM better?Any specifics? Its kinda a choice?Does the meta comp become more inclusive?Discuss!!Too early to tell, but depends on group's setup and how heavily reliant on chrono for boon upkeep.

What caught my attention atm is the change on Signet of Inspiration. Its impact on Aegis and is the duration effected by concentration(Rip?).

@Eramonster.2718 said:

@Solori.6025 said:A long time ago.What happens when you nerf chrono, what will end up taking it's place. Will the meta be better, or will raiding ( and fractals) end up in a worse spot?Comparing with?Meta then vs nowNow Chrono got the proverbial Axe execution style.Chrono? Or Mirage?Chrono...I said this.....Does this make raiding more diverse.Will this make casual T4 CM better?Any specifics? Its kinda a choice?Meta comps that required a Chrono support......As was asked in the OP.Does the meta comp become more inclusive?Discuss!!Too early to tell, but depends on group's setup and how heavily reliant on chrono for boon upkeep.

As far inclusiveness, the answer is very likely: no.

Reason being simple:The harder it is to setup your raid with the minimum support s required, the less inclusive the raid will be.

How the meta changes will depend heavily on 2 things:

1.) can dual chrono still keep up permanent alacrity and quickness?

2.) can any other 2 class setup keep up quickness and alacrity better?

Which ever is more efficient will take the spot as meta setup.

I think the biggest issue with the last patch was how no one was expecting something like this so close to Christmas.

Final note:Most changes made to chrono this time seem focused around PvE. As a result the WvW chrono is basically hit hard (basically deleted) from the gamemode.

Not concerned myself to much. Not happy but as I always say: raiders will find a new meta and adapt. It might get a bit disruptive over the next few days though.

As far inclusiveness, the answer is very likely: no.

Reason being simple:The harder it is to setup your raid with the minimum support s required, the less inclusive the raid will be.

How the meta changes will depend heavily on 2 things:

1.) can dual chrono still keep up permanent alacrity and quickness?

2.) can any other 2 class setup keep up quickness and alacrity better?

Which ever is more efficient will take the spot as meta setup.

I think the biggest issue with the last patch was how no one was expecting something like this so close to Christmas.

Final note:Most changes made to chrono this time seem focused around PvE. As a result the WvW chrono is basically hit hard (basically deleted) from the gamemode.

Not concerned myself to much. Not happy but as I always say: raiders will find a new meta and adapt. It might get a bit disruptive over the next few days though.

@Cyninja.2954 said:As far inclusiveness, the answer is very likely: no.

Reason being simple:The harder it is to setup your raid with the minimum support s required, the less inclusive the raid will be.

How the meta changes will depend heavily on 2 things:

1.) can dual chrono still keep up permanent alacrity and quickness?

2.) can any other 2 class setup keep up quickness and alacrity better?

Which ever is more efficient will take the spot as meta setup.

I think the biggest issue with the last patch was how no one was expecting something like this so close to Christmas.

Final note:Most changes made to chrono this time seem focused around PvE. As a result the WvW chrono is basically hit hard (basically deleted) from the gamemode.

Not concerned myself to much. Not happy but as I always say: raiders will find a new meta and adapt. It might get a bit disruptive over the next few days though.

Fb and rev is better now than chrono

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:Fb and rev is better now than chrono

Its not. The Patch was really good. Good groups can basically run 0 Boon Duration and keep up boons. Once you have them you are never going to lose them. bad groups can go with boon duration and probably get away 2 TW.On CC heavy fights you might take domination for a little bit of extra cc.

A really good patch to be stuck in Chrono Jail.

Dps chrono and fb :tongue:

These changes may lead to more diverse groups at the lower end of the spectrum, who knows. Those who already struggled with Chrono/Chrono/Druid(/Druid) before will really be in the shit now. And Firebrand/Firebrand/Renegade has certainly been the more forgiving option for quite a while now as you are even free to add a Druid if you were going to have four supports anyways. There might even be something like Firebrand/Renegade/Druid/Chrono.

That said, everyone else will continue to run Chronomancers and simply adjust to the changes, as mentioned by RaidsAreEasyAF. It will remain the superior option if you intend to min-max times and efficiency. PuG raids are going to be interesting, however, once the popular websites do not consider Firebrand/Renegade the superior option as many players seem to hope. We might see a lot of players pushing Chronomancers on the squad without understanding what needs to be done to adjust to the changes.

@RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:Fb and rev is better now than chrono

If we revert to a more support restricted meta (as in more than 4 slots go to supports), this might happen.

The SoI change was for lack of a better word retarded. Sure, it doesn't benefit from boon duration now, but at the same time: it does not NEED bood duration now.

If any additional raid slots go to more support roles which provide boons, chrono can now keep those boons up without sacrificing gear and just bringing SoI.

Overall though we might see a more restricted meta develop where as in the past, more slots go to designated support builds leaving less room for dps and putting pressure on which dps get taken along since dps performance becomes more important again.

@Cyninja.2954 said:we revert to a more support restricted meta (as in more than 4 slots go to supports), this might happen.

The SoI change was for lack of a better word kitten. Sure, it doesn't benefit from boon duration now, but at the same time: it does not NEED bood duration now.

If any additional raid slots go to more support roles which provide boons, chrono can now keep those boons up without sacrificing gear and just bringing SoI.

Overall though we might see a more restricted meta develop where as in the past, more slots go to designated support builds leaving less room for dps and putting >pressure on which dps get taken along since dps performance becomes more important again.

I dont think so tbh. The only class thats really in need of a lot of boons is Deadeye and the UC build of Dragonhunter. (Its 1% each for every boon) UC isnt used that often to begin with and Deadeye can be replaced by swordweaver, which was basically on par with Deadeye pre patch. Now that Deadeyes might not get all the boons sword weaver might be better on the bosses where you used deadeye before.

DPS performance will be way more important, yeah. If you dont run TW and miss the quickness well you are basically fucked. Bad DPS players will have bad DPS. I dont see anything wrong with this.

@RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:we revert to a more support restricted meta (as in more than 4 slots go to supports), this might happen.

The SoI change was for lack of a better word kitten. Sure, it doesn't benefit from boon duration now, but at the same time: it does not NEED bood duration now.

If any additional raid slots go to more support roles which provide boons, chrono can now keep those boons up without sacrificing gear and just bringing SoI.

Overall though we might see a more restricted meta develop where as in the past, more slots go to designated support builds leaving less room for dps and putting >pressure on which dps get taken along since dps performance becomes more important again.

True.

It will be interesting to see how big static raid group performance deviates from PUG groups now.

There was already very powerful support builds and easy dps builds available which were not meta (and thus not run in PUG groups where these builds would have performed very well and made runs safer) in the past. Let's see how this plays out now.

Agreed on the bad players part.

The main issue with this patch I think is, it came shortly after a different patch which forced people to change gear 2 weeks back (for most support roles). I can somewhat understand people being tired of having to reinvest gold every few weeks. Not everyone has the luxury of multiple sets of legendary armor.

This is only from a PVE raid perspective. Mesmer/Chrono/Mirage were hit hard in spvp and wvw too (in some occasions unjustly one might add).

@Cyninja.2954 said:The main issue with this patch I think is, it came shortly after a different patch which forced people to change gear 2 weeks back (for most support roles). I can somewhat understand people being tired of having to reinvest gold every few weeks. Not everyone has the luxury of multiple sets of legendary armor.

Understandable. I got legendary everything on my chrono due to that exact reason.And having weapons and trinkets from P Chrono helps. I basically run 35% BD. 25 from Leadership + 10% from my boon set with concentration. Might be able to drop leadership too. Gonna test this today.

The only change i really dont like is the Moa change. Its less CC than basilisk venom on a 3min cd.

This is only from a PVE raid perspective. Mesmer/Chrono/Mirage were hit hard in spvp and wvw too (in some occasions unjustly one might add).

I dont do PvP and WvW anyway. So everything ill ever say will only concern PvE.

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:Fb and rev is better now than chrono

As all other classes can't fart out different boons with releveant uptime as chrono could before the patch, People will just get used to less boons and nothing really changes.The only really relevant boons are might, fury, quickness, alacrity, to a lesser extent protection, those are still easy to come by. The rest was mainly a bonus for classes with increased damage with boons, except retaliation for guardians.

DPS players just need to play correctly now instead of getting carried by their chronomancers.

@Miellyn.6847 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:Fb and rev is better now than chrono

And maybe hopefully soldier gear and toughness dpa gear will.be meta :)

@Miellyn.6847 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:Fb and rev is better now than chrono

Oh absolutely, but chronos quickness and alacrity up-time was hit too. It's likely back to double wells (which is inherently harder to share with in say PUG groups), no mimic and a very un-intuitive SoI (which does not scale with bd). The fact that you have no overview of which boons you extend on a raid group is just simply bad design from an information and overview standpoint. The lacking boon overview (because tracking 8-10 boons is fun when they are all small tiny icons on your bar) basically taken to the next level. Should have removed the signet or reworked it as a whole.

My main gripe is mostly with the incoherent changes:

• SoI not affected by boon duration (I'm not a fan of exclusions of mechanics, in this case a stat not affecting a skill)
• SoI affecting boons on other players, which you have no real overview for in a raid scenario
• Mimic not affected by CS

Those 3 alone just scream:We had to come up with something, can't really manage to balance our game so we are going to start uniquely excluding effects on skills. A rework of those skills would have been better than this imo.

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Miellyn.6847 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:Fb and rev is better now than chrono

• SoI not affected by boon duration (I'm not a fan of exclusions of mechanics, in this case a stat not affecting a skill)
• SoI affecting boons on other players, which you have no real overview for in a raid scenario
• Mimic not affected by CS

Mimic works really good. Got to 40 seconds of quickness with 1 well and double chrono. Both running mimic. That was 50% BD so it will be slightly lower now. Basically one you get the boons, you will never lose them.

@RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Miellyn.6847 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:Fb and rev is better now than chrono

• SoI not affected by boon duration (I'm not a fan of exclusions of mechanics, in this case a stat not affecting a skill)
• SoI affecting boons on other players, which you have no real overview for in a raid scenario
• Mimic not affected by CS

Wells still only affect 5 players, as such double chrono unless running SoI makes not a big difference.

Single chrono:0s - CS+WoA+Mimic + WoA+ Mimiced WoA = 10 +10 +10 = 30s of quickness (at 100 bd)20s - WoA rdy = +10s quick40s - Woa rdy = +10s quick50s - quickness runs out52s - Mimic ready60s - WoA ready

That is without SoI (which you can't slot if you are running WoA+WoR+Mimic). Double chrono is only interesting for SoI and ToT since wells are still 5 player only. At 100% alacrity on chrono. Also this requires all people to get your wells every single time, which is a huge mobility issue.

Good enough for fractals still, raids it will work but be a lot more annoying without boons from outside.

I've no idea how it will effect raids and fractals but I'm glad the change was made based on how I understand it..

One class able to basically outperform every other at the same time in boons is just ridiculously overpowered.

I like Anet's idea of each class being more specialized in a specific kind of boon although I expect it will take a fair few patches before it's fine tuned enough that people stop complaining about it.Though I am curious about how it will hurt the Necro since they don't have much in the way of boon sharing.. corrupting boons into conditions and vice versa isn't going to stand up to lacking a specialized boon.

@Teratus.2859 said:I've no idea how it will effect raids and fractals but I'm glad the change was made based on how I understand it..

One class able to basically outperform every other at the same time in boons is just ridiculously overpowered.

I like Anet's idea of each class being more specialized in a specific kind of boon although I expect it will take a fair few patches before it's fine tuned enough that people stop complaining about it.

Not sure what you are talking about.

All steps taken so far in almost any patch was to open up all boons to more classes, not the other way around.

The basic idea of specialized boons is retarded. Imagine if you had to bring a specific class for a specific boon. That would be the most restrictive meta ever. Now add to that that certain boons are less required/essential compared to others and you are basically forcing specific classes out of a meta setup due to boon discrimination.

The easiest and best way would be to make boons as much of a non-issue as possible so that as many raid and fractal slots are available based on pure damage, something which is easiest to balance around.

The issue with chrono was that it was providing ALL the boons and people were up-set that they could not bring their support character of choice. Meanwhile the last 6 months were the least restricted raid meta ever with 6-7 dps slots open for damage dealers.

@Teratus.2859 said:Though I am curious about how it will hurt the Necro since they don't have much in the way of boon sharing.. corrupting boons into conditions and vice versa isn't going to stand up to lacking a specialized boon.

Simple, if you thought getting into a raid as a sub tier dps was hard now, wait until the amount of dps slots decreases to see what real discrimination looks like.

Necro excells as support scrouge though, unless the recent patch destroyed that build, I haven't checked.

@Cyninja.2954 said:Wells still only affect 5 players, as such double chrono unless running SoI makes not a big difference.

Single chrono:0s - CS+WoA+Mimic + WoA+ Mimiced WoA = 10 +10 +10 = 30s of quickness (at 100 bd)20s - WoA rdy = +10s quick40s - Woa rdy = +10s quick50s - quickness runs out52s - Mimic ready60s - WoA ready

That is without SoI (which you can't slot if you are running WoA+WoR+Mimic). Double chrono is only interesting for SoI and ToT since wells are still 5 player only. At 100% alacrity on chrono. Also this requires all people to get your wells every single time, which is a huge mobility issue.

Good enough for fractals still, raids it will work but be a lot more annoying without boons from outside.

Sorry, meant SoI + Mimic. You dont mimic the well.You can also run 2 DPS Chrono (1 with shield or a renegade) on bosses where you played duel illu before. probably even stuff like VG since the phases are short.

@RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:Wells still only affect 5 players, as such double chrono unless running SoI makes not a big difference.

Single chrono:0s - CS+WoA+Mimic + WoA+ Mimiced WoA = 10 +10 +10 = 30s of quickness (at 100 bd)20s - WoA rdy = +10s quick40s - Woa rdy = +10s quick50s - quickness runs out52s - Mimic ready60s - WoA ready

That is without SoI (which you can't slot if you are running WoA+WoR+Mimic). Double chrono is only interesting for SoI and ToT since wells are still 5 player only. At 100% alacrity on chrono. Also this requires all people to get your wells every single time, which is a huge mobility issue.

Good enough for fractals still, raids it will work but be a lot more annoying without boons from outside.

Ah that makes more sense. Yeah I thought as much. It might even be interesting to compliment 1 dps slot now for another mesmer who brings SoI since that signet needs no bd to make boons even easier to keep up.