Thief Balancing

I will pinpoint this post as @Gaile Gray.6029 since i don't know who else i could turn to since pinpointing it as for someone from Balance team would be pointless they got they work and etc.I would like to ask if we = Thieves lets say in this thread could get some justification for the recent changes that have been applied to thief class.This is not meant as calling out or something. I just see almost everyone getting lets say ''uneasy'' with the changes that are coming with each patch. And i think it is because we don't fully understand the aim behind these changes. The description in Balance patch is very distanced from the players perspective and to be honest as i read the coments and threads I think ppl are not happy with the latest changes so if we could get at least a small feedback like = ''We changed Lead Attacks because ... '' it would be much appreciated because for now we simply don't get it.If it is possible and some dev from balance team or someone who can tell us more would share some inner perspective on how are we supposed to see this or in what terms it balances/helps our gameplay we would be most greatful.Thank you.

Thumbs up. But good luck. The balance team isn't known for explaining anything or talking with players.

My guess is they are seeing only numbers and spread sheets. They aren't treating it like a fighting game, where mistakes often happen and theoretical numbers are never hit. They aren't seeing what the community is actually doing with the professions in the current state, nor understand why certain strategies or common decisions are being made.

@Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 said:Thumbs up. But good luck. The balance team isn't known for explaining anything or talking with players.

My guess is they are seeing only numbers and spread sheets. They aren't treating it like a fighting game, where mistakes often happen and theoretical numbers are never hit. They aren't seeing what the community is actually doing with the professions in the current state, nor understand why certain strategies or common decisions are being made.

I know probably i wont get answer but if we wont ask directly the ppl who can answer or at least get answer for us we wont get answers.And yes i agree balance atm is rly unbalanced

The devs said during a Q&A (the PvP one a couple of months ago) that their balance decisions are mostly based on "the highest level of skillful play" e.g. the performance of top PvP players and general user feedback. Now this is for the most part obviously not (or at best only partly) true as most of their actions don't reflect the reality of things in the slightest. They also said that they generally look at the complaints and then try to "find" the underlying issue with unsurprisingly rather lackluster results. It's not even that they never hit the nail on the head but the collateral damage they cause along the way is often times even worse than the "problem" (as in it's usually quite unclear what they are trying to address) they want to fix.

The thing is, if they wanted to give us a proper answer to the topic (as this has been brought up in the past multiple times) they would have already done so.

@Tails.9372 said:

That is why we have to adress them directly so they are forced to communicate or it will drag on like this forever ppl will complain Devs will do what they do and so on. We need to ask them to talk to us. And more ppl will ask the more pressure it will make. So they will at the end have to talk to us as well.Complaining wont solve this as we already witnessed. So we need to start debate.

@"Jack Redline.5379" said:if we could get at least a small feedback like = ''We changed Lead Attacks because ... '' it would be much appreciated because for now we simply don't get it.

They already gave an explanation.

"ThiefWhen we changed malice to no longer generate over time in an earlier update, we also carried over the portion of Death's Judgment that could not be blocked. However, now that it takes a shorter time to build malice, we no longer feel like this benefit is necessary. Additionally, we've toned down the initial burst of damage that the thief can apply by removing the ability to stack Lead Attacks when outside of combat. We've also had the opportunity to update thief weapon traits to the new standard of having a baseline value in addition to the benefits while wielding that weapon."

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

You are helpful as always Vinie and as i said, which you would have known if you'd read it properly:And i think it is because we don't fully understand the aim behind these changes.What is described in the patch description is only effect of the changes they removed LA we wont be able to burst so much. But what is the aim behind this change. Why make thief unable to burst if it is mainly burst class.

and before you would love to use the fact Deadeye was dealing a lot of burst i will type in boldTHIEFokay?THIEFThat consideres Core and Daredevil which were harmed by this update a lotWe are not talking only about Deadeye we are talking about THIEF

@Jack Redline.5379 said:

@"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

The aim is clearly described, to "toned down the initial burst of damage". I don't see any other way they could have said that to make it even more clearer. Toning it down doesn't necessarily means that the Thief is "unable to burst", that's non sequitur. Thief can still burst during combat instead of on initial engagement and if we are to be honest with each other, we know fully well why.

And as usual, I disagree with your narrow definition of the Thief as a "burst class" because the profession isn't a burst class. Thief can specialize in burst, yes, but the profession can do many other specialization that you simply do not want to explore.

Back when they changed Lead Attacks, they said this, "We'll continue to monitor the effectiveness of Lead Attacks and adjust it accordingly as needed." The time for adjustment has simply come.

If you really believe that you are "unable to burst" perhaps you need to provide details on why you believe that to be true. Also, include details on why you believe that Core and Daredevil are "harmed" by this update.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

I am literally laughing my butt off.Again you pulled out part of what i said and you put it to me as if i said it wrong. Well yes it would be true if i'd say it xDOkay

1st yes they said they want to tone down the initial burst of dmg. My question since we are using this as an example would be. ''Why do we want to tone down the initial burst of dmg? Was it too much? Was it good change considering other classes initial burst of dmg?'' etc...

2nd I didnt say thief is ''unable to burst'' I said Thief will be ''Unable to burst so much'' = The burst will be smaller/Not as big as before/Not as efficient

3rd Yes you are right thief can still burst but it is not as much as it was before.

4th Thief is a burst class because the damage output it deals comes in a burst. As far as the ideologies of Thief not being only dps class i am unwilling to discuss that in this thread. I made it so Anet can debate with us not to explain to you the very basics of the class we talk about here. Play it in whatever manner you want. I and dont care.

5th Yes they said they will monitor it and then change it. They did it now. So my question would be : ''What were the results saying lets say in comparison to other classes.'' etc...

6th Again i didn't say i am unable to burst. And you can just as well check other threads in the Thief forum. Ppl are complaining about the changes and yes it is harming Thief because the Lead attacks you would gain lets say while sb 5-ing to a point were helpful you did spend the ini didnt you so where is the price for it? If they want us not to gain lead attacks out of combat we also shouldnt be spending ini out of combat since ini is the source of our burst and dmg and if we are not fighting it shouldnt be spent no matter if we use our attacks if we wont get the benefits it is supposed to grant

I hope I answered all your concerns now please leave this thread for ppl who it was meant for = Anet devs who would be willing to disscuss and debate on the recent changes to Thief class

Thank you

@Jack Redline.5379 said:

@"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

They've been toning down initial burst as far as I can remember and they've said time and time again that it is not a healthy game play. The power creep that they recently did was a mistake and everybody knows that, if they will be honest with themselves. Yes, honestly, the initial burst needed to be toned down. No other specialization should be able to burst other than the Deadeye.

2nd I didnt say thief is ''unable to burst'' I said Thief will be ''Unable to burst so much'' = The burst will be smaller/Not as big as before/Not as efficient

It is fairly obvious that they are removing the burst capability away from Core and DD. So far, all updates gave all bursting capability to DE (e.g. Malicious Attacks). If you still do not see this, there will be no amount of explanation that will satisfy you.

3rd Yes you are right thief can still burst but it is not as much as it was before.

As it should be. DE is the burst specialization now.

4th Thief is a burst class because the damage output it deals comes in a burst. As far as the ideologies of Thief not being only dps class i am unwilling to discuss that in this thread. I made it so Anet can debate with us not to explain to you the very basics of the class we talk about here. Play it in whatever manner you want. I and dont care.

Yeah obviously ArenaNet disagree with your narrow definition too. Thief was never a burst class, it was always been a hybrid. Daredevil specializes in evasions and Deadeye specializes in burst damage. If you want burst, use Deadeye. This is the aim of ArenaNet all along.

5th Yes they said they will monitor it and then change it. They did it now. So my question would be : ''What were the results saying lets say in comparison to other classes.'' etc...

They don't compare Thief's changes to other classes. They have never done that nor they ever will. The data they've gathered has always been "Internal Use Only" and they never feel that they owe it to the players to give an explanation. Every changes they make always to achieve an unknown goal. Players believe it's balance, but ArenaNet's changes shows contrary to that.

For instance, the change of Feline Grace has nothing to do with game play balance, instead it was changed because of Daredevil. This has always been the pattern so far and it continues to do so. Core and Daredevil will get nerf in favor of the Deadeye by removing all burst capability from them and giving it all to Deadeye, just as Core's survivability was nerfed in favor of the Daredevil.

6th Again i didn't say i am unable to burst. And you can just as well check other threads in the Thief forum. Ppl are complaining about the changes and yes it is harming Thief because the Lead attacks you would gain lets say while sb 5-ing to a point were helpful you did spend the ini didnt you so where is the price for it? If they want us not to gain lead attacks out of combat we also shouldnt be spending ini out of combat since ini is the source of our burst and dmg and if we are not fighting it shouldnt be spent no matter if we use our attacks if we wont get the benefits it is supposed to grant

Lead Attacks, per its definition, is to lead an attack, meaning you have to be in combat. If ArenaNet choose to be faithful to the name of the trait, then that's it for that.

I hope I answered all your concerns now please leave this thread for ppl who it was meant for = Anet devs who would be willing to disscuss and debate on the recent changes to Thief class

Discuss and debate? Don't hold your breath.

vault got nerfed, and unnecesery nerf to lead attack, but swindler equilibrium got buffed, so there is no reason to cry. Mirages got nerfed harder + boon beasts. im just not sure why blood necro still exists in this game. oh and fb got a nerf (also not sure why signet of mercy still extist)

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

For instance, the change of Feline Grace has nothing to do with game play balance, instead it was changed because of Daredevil. This has always been the pattern so far and it continues to do so. Core and Daredevil will get nerf in favor of the Deadeye by removing all burst capability from them and giving it all to Deadeye, just as Core's survivability was nerfed in favor of the Daredevil.

But what is Core and DD getting in return?Nerf like this is not just some inter-class thing, it's going to make all of Core and DD weaker in the face of other professions.

If it's to make DE the burst spec of Thief then move it to something DE uses and make something else for Core and DD.It really doesn't make sense.This way Core and DD are going to lose both some of the already little burst they had and sustained dmg.

Balance should be balancing, they didn't give anything, they just took, DE already was THE burst spec. If Anets intention was to make DE the burst class as you say, then this was already a pointless change.

@Alatar.7364 said:

Bro dont deal with him it is pointless he argues with everyone having no real background for his theories you see what he wrote as a response to all i wrote. He lives in his own little world and if he tries to emerge we shouldnt try to interfere so he wont drag us down that rabbit hole of his.I wont respond to him either he will just spam kitten here dont mind him.this is just a good advice you may ignore it but you will see for yourself.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

Lead Attacks

i will just put a small qoute from Dictionary for you so the mistake you made is clear to you

Lead: Pb a chemical element that is a very heavy, soft, dark grey, poisonous metal, used especially in the past on roofs and for pipes and also for protection against radiationyes lead can be verb as for leadbut as far as the efect it is giving which is increase dmg and condi dmg (pointint to poisonous metal) it is highly probable we are talking about The Lead not about Leading

I just wanna see if a dev even responds to this thread, I'm all for seeing what their main goal with thief is. </3

@Alatar.7364 said:

@"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

For instance, the change of Feline Grace has nothing to do with game play balance, instead it was changed because of Daredevil. This has always been the pattern so far and it continues to do so. Core and Daredevil will get nerf in favor of the Deadeye by removing all burst capability from them and giving it all to Deadeye, just as Core's survivability was nerfed in favor of the Daredevil.

But what is Core and DD getting in return?Nerf like this is not just some inter-class thing, it's going to make all of Core and DD weaker in the face of other professions.

This is what had happen when they added the Daredevil. All the Core builds became useless. This boneheaded moves by the ArenaNet balance team is nothing new. They nerfed a lot of Core builds because Daredevil is "so good" instead of focusing the nerf on Daredevil. No difference now.

Players may have been accustomed to what Acrobatics and S/D is now, but they nerfed these and still have not fixed it or at least compensate the Thief profession with something else. S/P is still the most expensive weapon set and still no fix about that. Player do not want them to get fixed anymore because they've gotten used to them. ArenaNet is doing the exact same thing here: ignoring the players because they will get used to it eventually.

Balance should be balancing, they didn't give anything, they just took, DE already was THE burst spec. If Anets intention was to make DE the burst class as you say, then this was already a pointless change.

Just as they took from Acro and never gave anything. All you need is to follow the direction they are taking.

Am I wrong to say that they are making DE exclusively the burst spec? All evidence points to that fact. DE is now your only burst spec.

Yes it doesn't make sense to take burst away from Core and Daredevil unless they are making it exclusive to Deadeye, then it makes sense.

@Jack Redline.5379 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

Lead Attacks

As usual you're wrong. Lead Attacks is from GW1 Assassins' mechanic. It has nothing to do with your nonsense.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Alatar.7364 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

For instance, the change of Feline Grace has nothing to do with game play balance, instead it was changed because of Daredevil. This has always been the pattern so far and it continues to do so. Core and Daredevil will get nerf in favor of the Deadeye by removing all burst capability from them and giving it all to Deadeye, just as Core's survivability was nerfed in favor of the Daredevil.

But what is Core and DD getting in return?Nerf like this is not just some inter-class thing, it's going to make all of Core and DD weaker in the face of other professions.

Balance should be balancing, they didn't give anything, they just took, DE already

was

THE burst spec. If Anets intention was to make DE the burst class as you say, then this was already a pointless change.

I am a bit confused by this post of yours in comparasion to its very last sentence.

So we do agree that those changes were just nerfs that required balancing/compensating in return or not?Becase my point is that LA change was just a nerf to Thief/DD that will harm it vs all other profession because of DE, instead of just moving burst to DE and compensating Core and DD with something else. Even though to be honest I don't agree with any dmg reduction to Core and DD at this point.

@Alatar.7364 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Alatar.7364 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

For instance, the change of Feline Grace has nothing to do with game play balance, instead it was changed because of Daredevil. This has always been the pattern so far and it continues to do so. Core and Daredevil will get nerf in favor of the Deadeye by removing all burst capability from them and giving it all to Deadeye, just as Core's survivability was nerfed in favor of the Daredevil.

But what is Core and DD getting in return?Nerf like this is not just some inter-class thing, it's going to make all of Core and DD weaker in the face of other professions.

Balance should be balancing, they didn't give anything, they just took, DE already

was

THE burst spec. If Anets intention was to make DE the burst class as you say, then this was already a pointless change.

Whether they are nerfs or not is highly subjective.

Becase my point is that LA change was just a nerf to Thief/DD that will harm it vs all other profession because of DE, instead of just moving burst to DE and compensating Core and DD with something else. Even though to be honest I don't agree with any dmg reduction to Core and DD at this point.

Lead Attacks changes, for example, has no game breaking difference. If you are in combat, it plays the same as it always has been. The only real difference is if you are using DE since it now prevents a burst on initial engagement. This has been their goal recently with the changes they've made to the functionality of Malice. No out of combat power building.

Then they gave a power creep Malicious Backstab to DE, which IMO should belong to Core as a compensation for the nerfs in the past, which shows that they are aiming to give burst damage exclusive to DE. There is nothing left in Core to suggest that their intention is to balance the Thief profession. Even condition build is better with either Daredevil or Deadeye.

As I have said before, Core should be the more powerful Spec, not the Elite Specialization because Core is the foundation of the profession. Right now, that foundation is crumbling and the Thief even lose Steal, the skill that makes it a Thief, in the DE spec.

When was the last time a Dev came here to discuss about the Thief? Yeah, I can't remember either. It's been that long.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

Obviously.

Can we talk about the fact they continue to nerf all other specs in lame attempts to nerf deadeye burst because they're still trying to sell an expansion and don't wont to remove stealth on dodge which fixes every problem I currently have with deadeye? Let them keep the burst. Just give me a chance to actually punish them when they fail it for running glass. Speaking pvp/wvw that is. On another note. I don't understand the change to swindler's. Why was it nerfed when core s/d was already quite average in performance on top of being much more difficult to play in comparison to everything except for weaver. Never ran into deadeye's running it so it's not that.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Alatar.7364 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Alatar.7364 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

For instance, the change of Feline Grace has nothing to do with game play balance, instead it was changed because of Daredevil. This has always been the pattern so far and it continues to do so. Core and Daredevil will get nerf in favor of the Deadeye by removing all burst capability from them and giving it all to Deadeye, just as Core's survivability was nerfed in favor of the Daredevil.

But what is Core and DD getting in return?Nerf like this is not just some inter-class thing, it's going to make all of Core and DD weaker in the face of other professions.

Balance should be balancing, they didn't give anything, they just took, DE already

was

THE burst spec. If Anets intention was to make DE the burst class as you say, then this was already a pointless change.

Becase my point is that LA change was just a nerf to Thief/DD that will harm it vs all other profession because of DE, instead of just moving burst to DE and compensating Core and DD with something else. Even though to be honest I don't agree with any dmg reduction to Core and DD at this point.

I disagree. D/P will now lose a rather visible part of it's dmg opening burst. We can say that DE is the burst spec, but what is Backstab supposed to be if not a small burst? With this change a Thief preparing for Backstab will not get its percentage bonus, instead after he attacks it will no longer even benefit from LA, because: A) Backstab doesn't generate any LA and B ) D/P has absolutely no staying power, by the time it would gain and keep its LAs it is either dead, running away or barely alive and doing serious mistake by staying, since the new duration is 10sec per 15Ini points. This will affect +1s too.

@"Duckota.4769" said:Can we talk about the fact they continue to nerf all other specs in lame attempts to nerf deadeye burst because they're still trying to sell an expansion and don't wont to remove stealth on dodge which fixes every problem I currently have with deadeye? Let them keep the burst. Just give me a chance to actually punish them when they fail it for running glass. Speaking pvp/wvw that is. On another note. I don't understand the change to swindler's. Why was it nerfed when core s/d was already quite average in performance on top of being much more difficult to play in comparison to everything except for weaver. Never ran into deadeye's running it so it's not that.

SE got statistically speaking only buffed.However, it gets trickier. In WvW the +240 power is a nerf, in sPvP +240 power is a buff due to standardized Stats.

Regarding the Steal reduction part, that one got also "buffed not buffed", the 25% per 10sec is simply going to be a Buff in some scenarios and nerf in other scenarios as compared to 50% per 30sec. While, just mathematicaly speaking, the new SE gives 25% more recharge than the old SE.

Speaking for myself I think it will play out as a buff for S/D Thief in sPvP.

@Alatar.7364 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Alatar.7364 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Alatar.7364 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

For instance, the change of Feline Grace has nothing to do with game play balance, instead it was changed because of Daredevil. This has always been the pattern so far and it continues to do so. Core and Daredevil will get nerf in favor of the Deadeye by removing all burst capability from them and giving it all to Deadeye, just as Core's survivability was nerfed in favor of the Daredevil.

But what is Core and DD getting in return?Nerf like this is not just some inter-class thing, it's going to make all of Core and DD weaker in the face of other professions.

Balance should be balancing, they didn't give anything, they just took, DE already

was

THE burst spec. If Anets intention was to make DE the burst class as you say, then this was already a pointless change.

Becase my point is that LA change was just a nerf to Thief/DD that will harm it vs all other profession because of DE, instead of just moving burst to DE and compensating Core and DD with something else. Even though to be honest I don't agree with any dmg reduction to Core and DD at this point.

Yes Core Backstab is sad this is why I said that the power creep given to DE through Malicious Backstab should have been given to Core Thieves instead. Backstab should be the Core's specialization's go to skill. The original Lead Attacks boosts Backstab and ArenaNet didn't like that. They change Lead Attacks to what it is now to nerf D/P.

As for D/P's staying power, that was nerfed long time ago when they changed Black powder and Dagger skill's overall damage. And as long as the Thief cannot cap while in stealth, D/P will never have staying power. Why do you think Thief's role is +1 and decapping? Because they have zero staying power.

D/P and S/D will always get nerfed and as always with little or no compensation. This update they expect you to use Dagger Training and Ankle Shot as compensations to the damage loss. I'm not even surprise anymore.

@Duckota.4769 said:Can we talk about the fact they continue to nerf all other specs in lame attempts to nerf deadeye burst because they're still trying to sell an expansion and don't wont to remove stealth on dodge which fixes every problem I currently have with deadeye? Let them keep the burst. Just give me a chance to actually punish them when they fail it for running glass. Speaking pvp/wvw that is. On another note. I don't understand the change to swindler's. Why was it nerfed when core s/d was already quite average in performance on top of being much more difficult to play in comparison to everything except for weaver. Never ran into deadeye's running it so it's not that.

That fact is undeniable. They sure are trying to make Deadeye look good by nerfing everything else. This is nothing new, in fact, it is expected. Many players will never forget that they ruined Acrobatics in favor of Daredevil...Acro should have always had 3 dodges.