Full Counter damage below auto attacks.

I honestly never start a balance complaint thread, but after playing Spellbreaker post-patch, the changes to Full Counter are just completely out of touch with reality.

Lets begin by getting some things straight: Yes, the previous damage coefficient was high. This was, originally, because it counterbalances the loss of an adrenaline bar (2 instead of 3) and the damage that this third bar had on the original burst skills. In other words, spellbreaker burst skills do significantly less damage than core/berserker burst skills, thus full counter needs to hit hard. Could it have been shaved? Yeah, sure. Did it have to be neutered? Not at all.

That said: This nerf puts Full Counter, a Warrior burst skill and core mechanic of Spellbreaker, below the damage point of ALL Auto Attacks for every warrior weapon in the game. It's so low, in fact, that it can't even kill a mesmer clone on full zerk gear. What is the logic behind making a BURST skill that has a cooldown and the possibility of not being activated at all hit significantly lower than literally all the no cooldown, 100% activation skills in the game?

For god's sake even Dagger 3 has over twice its damage coefficient and has a 1/4s daze +1.5 stun. Hammer 4 is an AOE knockback that hits almost 4 times as hard. THERE ARE CONDI FOCUSED WEAPON SKILL AUTO ATTACKS WITH HIGHER BURST OUTPUT.

If you think the daze duration increase makes up for it, it just really really doesn't. There's stunbreaks everywhere, and the stability boonspam in the game is massive. Its like Anet never actually tested this stuff in an actual fight environment. In a 1v1 FC doesn't do enough damage to be worth losing the extra damage from a 3rd adrenaline bar, and in group fights the stability spam is so gross that the daze duration increase isn't even relevant.

At this point I'm just writing this out of frustration, because I know the possibility of it being reversed or even looked at is laughable. I just think its a shame Anet developed an interesting counter mechanic for an elite spec and now proceeds to just make it near useless in the game modes that it was (obviously) originally thought for. Frankly, its disappointing.

They are not done yet. Something inside tells me that they will nerf spellbreaker even more. They are just making whole elite spec less and less fun to play...

At this point there isn't much we can do about it. Anet obviously has different view on warrior class than we do, so even if there is proper feedback, ideas with common sense, it does not matter much.

They can just nerf e.g. condi berserker to the ground too, because why not? They don't have to/want to explain why they do that, they just can.Most recent warrior balance changes hardly justify 3 months of work... literally nothing changed, except spellbreaker being weakened quite a lot in PvP/WvW.Last good significant change warrior got was changing peak performance to provide 33% damage buff (together with axe buffs in the same patch), later nerfed to 20%. Even after nerf, it was something that shifted warrior meta especially in PvE. After that, I can't think of any change that would actually changed stuff as much as PP.No buggy skills fixes, no skill polishing.And it is taking too long.

The skill had a nerf coming for a long time.

I'm a warrior main and even I can say that. It's a harsh nerf for sure, but don't ignore what the skill is primarily used for and that is blocking damage and dealing some yourself. It still resets your F1, it still gives you stacks of Berserker's Power... But now we all get reminded that core warrior is and has been better for a long time now and more people might just start playing that again.

@"Blocki.4931" said:The skill had a nerf coming for a long time.

I'm a warrior main and even I can say that. It's a harsh nerf for sure, but don't ignore what the skill is primarily used for and that is blocking damage and dealing some yourself. It still resets your F1, it still gives you stacks of Berserker's Power... But now we all get reminded that core warrior is and has been better for a long time now and more people might just start playing that again.

You're like the abused house wife "I know he broke my jaw but I've just been reminded that handwriting is a better form of communication and has been for a long time"

Just no.

If a spec exists it needs to be viable and this unnecessary short sighted ham fisted nerf is way too heavy (I literally can't even kill mes clones and phantasms with it now, it's a fucking joke) and doesn't really address the problems with spellbreak.

Couldn't agree more. Warriors were finally a feasible WvW team class. SBR gave them zone control and aoe burst enough to be effective in scale warfare. Now the bubble nerf made some sense even if I disagree with how they handled it to start. Now this ham handed nerf to a mechanic that is relatively balanced and the only people that complain about it are the ones not smart enough to avoid hitting the guy in FC. Its bullshit.

@Blocki.4931 said:The skill had a nerf coming for a long time.

I'm a warrior main and even I can say that. It's a harsh nerf for sure, but don't ignore what the skill is primarily used for and that is blocking damage and dealing some yourself. It still resets your F1, it still gives you stacks of Berserker's Power... But now we all get reminded that core warrior is and has been better for a long time now and more people might just start playing that again.

The damage is supposed to be punishment for setting off the counter. That was part of the mechanic. its risk vs reward. But they just shat all over it because of bad players being big babies.

@Necodominus.6203 said:

@Blocki.4931 said:The skill had a nerf coming for a long time.

I'm a warrior main and even I can say that. It's a harsh nerf for sure, but don't ignore what the skill is primarily used for and that is blocking damage and dealing some yourself. It still resets your F1, it still gives you stacks of Berserker's Power... But now we all get reminded that core warrior is and has been better for a long time now and more people might just start playing that again.

... and the damage you get from blocking it still is punishment for setting off the counter. It still IS part of the mechanic. Interesting you raise the risk/reward because as it was in the past, the risk/reward profile of Full Counter was WAY off base. At BEST, there was some lost opportunity to make a better play. At least now, the opponent doesn't just wither under a blocked attack, even though they have to eat a longer duration daze. Seems like an advantageous trade off to me.

In short: at best, a blocked attack should probably be on the order of the damage you get from retaliation.

not really, you can break a stun or daze. Damage is damage. As far as the risk vs. reward, if you get the warrior to low hp and you are dumb enough to hit the full counter to try and push through. Bam! the fight should be in the FCs favor. If you are a smart player you wait it out and hope their heal does not come up. It does not matter how much damage it does if you avoid it like a smart person. Now the reasoning behind the nerf is most likely for WvW because you can pop FC just like mace 3 on guard walk in to a group and do damage. It adds high threat potential at an almost 100% chance of someone triggering it in a hectic fight. But this is at great risk to any warrior diving in and out of a large group to make it work (Still risk vs reward). So now they nerf it in to the ground because they don't see the nuances of the scale and sPvP and roamers are moaning because it hurts too bad. This "balance" was completely unnecessary, instead of just letting players adapt they tipped the scales.

I think the bottom line is that a block shouldn't do significant damage to a player unless it's a 'themed' build, like Guardian Retaliation a long way back. Whether a daze can be broken or not is neither here nor there. It does a low level of damage, it's not unreasonable to understand why. It could do NO damage and still be relevant to the concept of the skill and the class. The point and value of the counter attack is the interrupt, not the damage it makes; it makes some sense given that the damage is not the primary reason to use FC.

Its not a block its a counter. Its like the repost or empathy from gw1 or any of the other numerous skills that do the same thing in gw2. I just happens to be a burst skill and a core mechanic for the warrior. As it is the mechanic of the SPB spec it should do significant damage considering you can only get to adrenaline 1 level bursts. It at least should do equivalent damage.

@Necodominus.6203 said:Its not a block its a counter.

Sure, if you want to be pedantic. Doesn't change what I said. The value of the counter is the interrupt since FC is a skill used in anticipation of a strike ... or simply to delay one if your opponent doesn't want to eat a FC. If your opponent wants to eat a stun break just to hit you immediately after eating FC daze, that sounds just like the kind of counterplay Anet likes to include in the game and probably contributes to the reason they made this change.

FC is not a burst in the sense like core warrior or berserker bursts are for DPS, so no, it shouldn't have a burst-like DPS. It uses adrenaline; that's where the comparison ends. The bottomline is that the opponent should have options; the old version offered none. That's what counterplay is about and counterplay is one of the elements that separates great PVP players from rotation-burners.

Then why have a class built around the idea of being a powerful counter-force if its gets no advantage for doing so? a slightly longer daze is not even remotely comparable. You could get the same thing from a weapon or utility. Instead you give up two levels of adrenaline for a borderline useless utility.

@Obtena.7952 said:I think the bottom line is that a block shouldn't do significant damage to a player unless it's a 'themed' build, like Guardian Retaliation a long way back. Whether a daze can be broken or not is neither here nor there. It does a low level of damage, it's not unreasonable to understand why. It could do NO damage and still be relevant to the concept of the skill and the class. The point and value of the counter attack is the interrupt, not the damage it makes; it makes some sense given that it's a reactive skill, so the damage is not the primary reason to use FC.

I think you're vastly underestimating how badly spellbreaker has been gutted, almost everything we used to run to provide damage and remove buffs has been nerfed into non use. Break Enchantments does so little damage and is overall so useless in the face of boon application it's not really run in any build. Breaching Strike does under 50% of what it originally did and only removes 2 boons, Winds of Disenchantment is nice but no longer necessary and that's about all we've got, or had.

Basically what I'm getting at is the ONE thing spellbreakers had left from their original concept was full counter was supplemented the damage we lose from only having 2 adrenaline bars and allowed us to punish people who would try and burst us down. Now without that we basically have no place, my full counters were doing 1-1.5k damage, that's like tickling other players. It comes down to the fact that we need to have damage on SOMETHING in our class in order to make us viable and right now Anet is apparently so terrified that we can be defensive and offensive they've made sure all we are is a sponge. Why this is a problem for warriors all of a sudden when no one was really complaining about us in the face of condi mirages is beyond me.

@"Necodominus.6203" said:The why have a class built around the idea of being a powerful counter-force if its gets no advantage for doing so? a slightly longer daze is not even remotely comparable. You could get the same thing from a weapon or utility. Instead you give up two levels of adrenaline for a borderline useless utility.

That's just a sensational, untrue statement. you DON"T get the same thing from a weapon or utility though ... you get it HERE. It's part of the theme of the class to interrupt players. If you haven't figured out how theme of a class affects changes Anet makes to classes in the game, go ahead and check the link in my sig. The fact is that more daze duration IS inline with the concept of Spellbreaker. If you think you give up too much to be a SB, you got other choices.

@Atticus.7194 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:I think the bottom line is that a block shouldn't do significant damage to a player unless it's a 'themed' build, like Guardian Retaliation a long way back. Whether a daze can be broken or not is neither here nor there. It does a low level of damage, it's not unreasonable to understand why. It could do NO damage and still be relevant to the concept of the skill and the class. The point and value of the counter attack is the interrupt, not the damage it makes; it makes some sense given that it's a reactive skill, so the damage is not the primary reason to use FC.

So what do you think prompts Anet to make these changes? Something to do with making sure SB maintains it's current rank in PVP? I don't think so. If you want a hint, check my sig.

spell-BREAKER not spell interrupter. Your supposed to kill mages not gently tickle them with interrupts. I get what you are saying, I really do. But as atticus said you are severely underestimating how much warriors dmg have just been kicked in the teeth across the board. I understand from the sPvP side of things where counterplay is more important. But in WvW those things matter less. SPB was built to be a raid class for WvW as much as a dueling class for sPvP. And what ANet has done is taken the class, chosen a side, and managed to piss off half the warrior player base who were happy to have a viable warrior WvW raid spec. They gave no consideration to that point. So now this directly following the bubble nerf feels like my favorite class just got crapped on.

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Atticus.7194 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:I think the bottom line is that a block shouldn't do significant damage to a player unless it's a 'themed' build, like Guardian Retaliation a long way back. Whether a daze can be broken or not is neither here nor there. It does a low level of damage, it's not unreasonable to understand why. It could do NO damage and still be relevant to the concept of the skill and the class. The point and value of the counter attack is the interrupt, not the damage it makes; it makes some sense given that it's a reactive skill, so the damage is not the primary reason to use FC.

Who knows why Anet does anything ever. Half the time they nerf classes that in no way need it and ignore the classes and specs 99% of people agree are hilariously overpowered. Also I don't know what rank in PvP you are but you do not see spellbreakers much higher than gold. We are literally a sponge, that's it, spellbreakers have no follow through damage to actually kill anyone so I'm not surprised by any of this.

Also why do you keep talking about the dumb link in your profile, yes I saw it's an Anet post referencing the end of a pvp season and some herald changes, neato.

This is the fourth nerf to Full Counter:

1. December 11, 2018The damage applied by this skill in competitive modes has been reduced from 75% of PvE to 25% of PvE. Its daze duration in competitive game modes has been increased to 1.5 seconds.
2. March 27, 2018Reduced damage by 14% in PvP and WvW.
3. November 07, 2017
   Increased recharge from 8 seconds to 12 seconds in PvP and WvW only.
4. October 17, 2017
   Fixed a bug in which this ability gained the damage bonus from Revenge Counter twice.The base damage of this ability has been reduced by 12.5% in PvP and WvW only.

Even more if we include the Full Counter traits:

5. November 07, 2017
   Reduced the number of conditions transferred from 5 to 3 in PvP and WvW only.

Reminds me a bit of what happened to Berserker. Might be an indication that an expansion is around the corner to make room for something new and even more broken. On a serious note, probably one of the most nerfed skills since Steal. Pretty much what happens when you design a spec around the use of a single mechanic when half of the people just can't deal with it.

i'll be honest and say FC hit too hard for everything ELSE the skill does. I mean come on if traited (and most builds will use those traits) it gives....

Absorbs attackDazes enemyGives ProtectionRemoves 1 boon per interrupted enemyGives adrenaline per boon removed and does additional damage per boon removedGives you a stack of attackers insightand then if you take revenge counter will give resistance copies condis and does extra damageOR magebane, 10% extra damage, might stacking, pulsing reveal and a pull.

Thats a heck of a lot of stuff for one skill on a ~10 sec cd.

Did they over nerf the damage?.....Agreed. Is it the end of the world? No.

its pants now. prefer my adrenaline block, you are better off with a dodgeeven if it is 'elite' be nice to be able to toggle or build around it via the traits

@Spartacus.3192 said:i'll be honest and say FC hit too hard for everything ELSE the skill does. I mean come on if traited (and most builds will use those traits) it gives....

Absorbs attackDazes enemyGives ProtectionRemoves 1 boon per interrupted enemyGives adrenaline per boon removed and does additional damage per boon removedGives you a stack of attackers insightand then if you take revenge counter will give resistance copies condis and does extra damageOR magebane, 10% extra damage, might stacking, pulsing reveal and a pull.

Thats a heck of a lot of stuff for one skill on a ~10 sec cd.

Did they over nerf the damage?.....Agreed. Is it the end of the world? No.

Wow! It's almost as if the skill was designed to punish players for triggering it, go figure!

It only absorbs one attack if the skill is triggered, only dazes (used to be a .5 second daze, now is 1.5 seconds) if the hit lands, only removes boons if the hit lands, only gives adrenaline per boon if it lands IF traited, only copies three conditions (not transfer, mind you) with only 2 whopping seconds of resistance, and magebane only triggers if the hit lands.

@Atticus.7194 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Atticus.7194 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:I think the bottom line is that a block shouldn't do significant damage to a player unless it's a 'themed' build, like Guardian Retaliation a long way back. Whether a daze can be broken or not is neither here nor there. It does a low level of damage, it's not unreasonable to understand why. It could do NO damage and still be relevant to the concept of the skill and the class. The point and value of the counter attack is the interrupt, not the damage it makes; it makes some sense given that it's a reactive skill, so the damage is not the primary reason to use FC.

... and then ...

Also why do you keep talking about the dumb link in your profile, yes I saw it's an Anet post referencing the end of a pvp season and some herald changes, neato.

Oh my goodness. Yeah we never have ANY idea why Anet does anything ... except the many times when they tell us I guess ><

@spartan.9421 said:

@Spartacus.3192 said:i'll be honest and say FC hit too hard for everything ELSE the skill does. I mean come on if traited (and most builds will use those traits) it gives....

Absorbs attackDazes enemyGives ProtectionRemoves 1 boon per interrupted enemyGives adrenaline per boon removed and does additional damage per boon removedGives you a stack of attackers insightand then if you take revenge counter will give resistance copies condis and does extra damageOR magebane, 10% extra damage, might stacking, pulsing reveal and a pull.

Thats a heck of a lot of stuff for one skill on a ~10 sec cd.

Did they over nerf the damage?.....Agreed. Is it the end of the world? No.

Full counter is unblockable so if the enemy is in the radius and doesn't dodge they will get hit. And you will still get most of the boons (and adrenal health) even if enemy is not in the radius because Full counter is procced by projectiles and aoe.

I play spellbreaker its one of my fav classes to play alongside holo. You mentioned that its supposed to punish players that trigger it. I agree BUT its AOE which means the smart player that stowed his weapon in time will still get hit by FC if there is another player mindlessly spamming his skills. Now if ANET made it so that it so that FC had a much larger radius BUT only punished the player that triggered it then it would be more true to its nature and we could have the damage back.

at this point,remove damage,remove daze,make it 5 sec cd. you again destroyed warrior anet,it was garbage 1v1 for half year,i guess some necro standing on point spaming random skills is still owned by skill with 1 sec casting time and 180 range = better nerf that bad boy and remove shield 5,war op. pls nerf.

In WvW and I would be ok with this nerf if the utility in FC was viable, you rarely are affected by the daze there's just too much stability and boon uptime, most fights you only see Immune popping up even spamming Break Enchantments and before you would at least know you've done some damage. The viability of a melee CC class in WvW at the moment it bad when you have others classes that can AoE CC from range.