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The imbalance of balance changes


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Hi, over the last 6 months or so, I have been trying to cultivate a raid group consisting of players somewhat new to high end content. It is extremely enjoyable to learn the ins and outs of raid fights together with players who are very willing to learn and improve every week. I have been trying to motivate players to nail down their rotations, get the best gear possible, and learn all they can about their classes. But it feels like once a month we have to completely start over again. It puts a burden on me as the commander because I have to think of new build compositions, but more significantly, I have to continue to motivate people to try hard despite their ever growing fear that the class and role they play will no longer be "viable". I had a player just start getting good with chrono and she was completely in love (which is a raid commander's dream come true). Yesterday, she was devastated by the balance patches and wanted to quit the game. What can I do to help motivate these players to keep trying despite getting set back and demoralized constantly? I can try to help them with their gear and learning new rotations, but its putting a huge toll on all of us in the group. I get why regularly shaking up the meta is good for veteran raiders, but it doesn't seem to do any good for my group. No one in my group cares about what profession can play what roles, they just want to learn some profession and some role so they can reliably experience the content for the first time. If you have any advice on motivating other players to keep going after a new balance patch, or any info you have on how you like to form new team compositions right after a balance patch, please let me know!

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@"Burnhard Riemann.8650" said:What can I do to help motivate these players to keep trying despite getting set back and demoralized constantly?You really can't. I mean, you can try to, but this situation is going to repeat over and over again. If someone is discouraged now (which, by the way, is completely understandable, it's quite discouraging for me as well), they wil continue to be more and more discouraged in the future. Basically, at the moment only one class role (dps necro) can be considered to be safe, and only because it has already been nerfed to the point people playing it can't really have any hope left.

I get why regularly shaking up the meta is good for veteran raidersIs it? I mean, the only "good" thing from it would be eliminating new-ish players and making raids even more exclusive than they already are. And i'm not so sure it's really all that good.

but it doesn't seem to do any good for my group.It's not good for anyone. The "dynamic balance" idea Anet came up with long ago has always been of questionable value. And it will continue to keep many players out of the endgame content now and in the future, unless it is abandoned.

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Wish I knew what to tell you, it's like if you want to play support you need to have all of the classes because of Anet's ridiculous attitudes towards balancing. Seriously, the person that pushed for this latest balance patch should be fired. A lot of people are discouraged right now. Might still be room in the meta for chronos, think people are still figuring it out. Otherwise - might not be the game for her.

Arenanet is not going to get any better about destroying builds through their ridiculous balancing. I'm personally shelving my chrono and gonna mess around on my fb. probably play some other games.

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@"Burnhard Riemann.8650" said:Hi, over the last 6 months or so, I have been trying to cultivate a raid group consisting of players somewhat new to high end content. It is extremely enjoyable to learn the ins and outs of raid fights together with players who are very willing to learn and improve every week. I have been trying to motivate players to nail down their rotations, get the best gear possible, and learn all they can about their classes. But it feels like once a month we have to completely start over again. It puts a burden on me as the commander because I have to think of new build compositions, but more significantly, I have to continue to motivate people to try hard despite their ever growing fear that the class and role they play will no longer be "viable". I had a player just start getting good with chrono and she was completely in love (which is a raid commander's dream come true). Yesterday, she was devastated by the balance patches and wanted to quit the game. What can I do to help motivate these players to keep trying despite getting set back and demoralized constantly? I can try to help them with their gear and learning new rotations, but its putting a huge toll on all of us in the group. I get why regularly shaking up the meta is good for veteran raiders, but it doesn't seem to do any good for my group. No one in my group cares about what profession can play what roles, they just want to learn some profession and some role so they can reliably experience the content for the first time. If you have any advice on motivating other players to keep going after a new balance patch, or any info you have on how you like to form new team compositions right after a balance patch, please let me know!

There hasn't been any major shake up in the meta for the past couple years. The biggest thing would be that it is now optimal to take one druid instead of two. That's it. Chrono is still mandatory everywhere because the alternative is simply not there. The view that the meta is shaken up regularly is simply not true. Look at all the past notes, dps has been rotating in and out but every profession has a viable build. Druid and chrono has been getting nerfed every patch with good reason but they are still mandatory in literally every single raid comp imaginable.

Tell your group this, if the quote "No one in my group cares about what profession can play what roles" is really true. Then don't worry about the balance changes at all. It does not affect you if you don't care as long as you are not going for high min max comp which it does not sound like what is happening. There has been very very few patch in the game that just flat out delete something in the meta. It is very much senseless worry. Most of the nerfs are to bring other classes into the role as the existence of druid and chrono has been suffocating out other choices for years. We are finally at a state where classes like heal revs or heal scourge can go in certain comps. It doesn't mean druid is literally useless now, it just means you now have variety so it isn't just druid or bust. Same thing is basically happening with chrono but it is a much more difficult issue to solve as it involves introducing alternatives in addition to nerfs. The idea isn't to just nerf classes but rather introducing more options.

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@Warscythes.9307 said:There hasn't been any major shake up in the meta for the past couple years. The biggest thing would be that it is now optimal to take one druid instead of two. That's it.Depends on what you call a major meta shakeup. In the overall group composition, you're right. So far we've managed to free two slots (one warrior, and one druid) for other options, and dps slots are a bit more open now than they were before, but that's it. that's on group level only, however.

On individual level it is a bit different. There hadn't been a class that didn't get through at least small gear changes. Some classes were dropping in and out of the meta. Some classes went through some major changes, associated with need of costly regearing. Some had to go through it more than once. And support classes (the ones that the least number of people are already willing to play) are getting hit the most. Basically, as a support you have to assume that the next balance change (and sometimes even a sudden unexpected patch between those) can make you change the gear you use and the way you play. For many players that's extremely disheartening. It's like having someone burn your new house down every time right at the moment you finally managed to get used to it.

Chrono is still mandatory everywhere because the alternative is simply not there.Exactly. And Anet is not willing to create such an alternative. Yet they will still keep nerfing chrono down until it's so bad noone will want to take it. And it also seems they are eyeing druid and warrior too.Not that other support classes (or dps classes for that matter) can feel safe. Only necros can feel safe in knowing they will always be on the bottom and their any forays into the meta are purely accidental.

Basically, if you don't have several classes and few gear sets for them, and aren't willing to change builds/rotations on them every now and then, high end content is likely not for you. Because Anet is going to mess with your beloved class at some point, making it into something you won't recognize anymore.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Warscythes.9307 said:There hasn't been any major shake up in the meta for the past couple years. The biggest thing would be that it is now optimal to take one druid instead of two. That's it.Depends on what you call a major meta shakeup. In the overall group composition, you're right. So far we've managed to free two slots (one warrior, and one druid) for other options, and dps slots are a bit more open now than they were before, but that's it. that's on group level only, however.

On individual level it is a bit different. There hadn't been a class that didn't get through at least small gear changes. Some classes were dropping in and out of the meta. Some classes went through some major changes, associated with need of costly regearing. Some had to go through it more than once. And support classes (the ones that the least number of people are already willing to play) are getting hit the most. Basically, as a support you have to assume that the next balance change (and sometimes even a sudden unexpected patch between those) can make you change the gear you use and the way you play. For many players that's extremely disheartening. It's like having someone burn your new house down every time right at the moment you finally managed to get used to it.

Exactly, the meta has changed multiple times ever since raids were introduced with HoT. Last year, 1 druid and 1 warrior spot were removed in favor of dps (with the first changes to have certain skills affect 10 players).

This year alone, Chrono has seen 2 major reworks which while in the end not changing the meta up did see players who are playing this class forced to regear and readapt their play styles. Factor in the 2 more reworks of Runes/Sigils which also required regearing of Chronos (and druids to some extent), the 2 main carry professions for raids:

  • which are the most expensive to gear
  • were usually tasked/burdened with the most effort and mechanics in raids and fractals
  • are in constant lack because of the effort and gold required to gear them

Were forced to change play style and gear 4 times. This could have been solved better (and given how Arenanet put out this statement: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/769015#Comment_769015 They seem to have noticed the minor fubar.)

I'm all for balance, but keep it some what manageable for people who are not full legendary geared (I am, but many others are not).

I find the notion hilarious that people pretend as though they can't play they favorite support class. In general, and this is valid across ALL MMOs, support roles are always massively underrepresented. Most people just want to play a damage dealer and not care about anything else (especially here where support roles come with extra tasks and burdens).

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Warscythes.9307 said:Chrono is still mandatory everywhere because the alternative is simply not there.Exactly. And Anet is not willing to create such an alternative. Yet they will still keep nerfing chrono down until it's so bad noone will want to take it. And it also seems they are eyeing druid and warrior too.Not that other support classes (or dps classes for that matter) can feel safe. Only necros can feel safe in knowing they will always be on the bottom and their any forays into the meta are purely accidental.

Basically, if you don't have several classes and few gear sets for them, and aren't willing to change builds/rotations on them every now and then, high end content is likely not for you. Because Anet
is
going to mess with your beloved class at some point, making it into something you won't recognize anymore.

Exactly.

The assumption that by nerfing chrono everything will get better is in the very premise flawed. None of the other support classes remotely comes close to what chrono can/could do. Bringing chrono down to other support class level (many of which are not pure support builds by the way but rather hybrid builds, which has been pointed out multiple times by now) while keeping other support builds weak (or sticking to hybrid builds) only makes the meta more difficult. It would have been better to bring other support up or close to chronos level.

That's ONLY from a PvE perspective. How were Firebrand and Scourge fairing in WvW until now? Total dominance you say? I wonder how they will fare after this patch? Absolute, complete total dominance you say? Cool balance.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Warscythes.9307 said:There hasn't been any major shake up in the meta for the past couple years. The biggest thing would be that it is now optimal to take one druid instead of two. That's it.Depends on what you call a major meta shakeup. In the overall group composition, you're right. So far we've managed to free two slots (one warrior, and one druid) for other options, and dps slots are a bit more open now than they were before, but that's it. that's on group level only, however.

On individual level it is a bit different. There hadn't been a class that didn't get through at least small gear changes. Some classes were dropping in and out of the meta. Some classes went through some major changes, associated with need of costly regearing. Some had to go through it more than once. And support classes (the ones that the least number of people are already willing to play) are getting hit the most. Basically, as a support you have to assume that the next balance change (and sometimes even a sudden unexpected patch between those) can make you change the gear you use and the way you play. For many players that's extremely disheartening. It's like having someone burn your new house down every time right at the moment you finally managed to get used to it.

Chrono is still mandatory everywhere because the alternative is simply not there.Exactly. And Anet is not willing to create such an alternative. Yet they will still keep nerfing chrono down until it's so bad noone will want to take it. And it also seems they are eyeing druid and warrior too.Not that other support classes (or dps classes for that matter) can feel safe. Only necros can feel safe in knowing they will always be on the bottom and their any forays into the meta are purely accidental.

Basically, if you don't have several classes and few gear sets for them, and aren't willing to change builds/rotations on them every now and then, high end content is likely not for you. Because Anet
is
going to mess with your beloved class at some point, making it into something you won't recognize anymore.

Its to make other classes apealing too

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I cannot fathom why they would ship this patch, tell us to expect further balance updates in the foreseeable future (ep 5?) but also advise that we might consider biding our time rather than change our builds (yet again).

At this point one or two more months of "chrono-god" and a full balance update that also addresses the shortcomings of the other support builds and the endgame in general. (lack of boon generation, clunkyness - Renegade legends and Firebrand tomes among others - of use, substitutes for spirits/banners, the power of boons, etc.)*Note: I do not share all of these sentiments, i.E. slashing boon uptime accross the board as some users on reddit proposed.

But instead we are now left in a limbo where Chronomancer has - yet again - been nerfed but not made obsolete and made more annoying to play while drastically increasing its DPS for certain builds as SoI is a flat boon increase unaffected by concentration. Signet of Humiliation has been completely neutered considering Gravity Well does just as much breakbar damage to five targets and with a lower cooldown. Renegade has been slightly buffed and Firebrand might actually look at a net nerf with the drastic increase in CD of tomes. In the end you are still ending up with a more specialized comp with less room for off meta dps.Two Chronos, Druid, BS + 6 DPSvs2 Firebrand, Renegade, BS, Ranger, Dps Chrono + 4 DPS (SoI is just too good to pass)

Meanwhile, those changes crippled Chrono even worse in fractals but no worry, you might as well use-

Firebrand, Renegade, BS, Soulbeast, DPS Chrono (if you fancy pulls, skips, portals)

Looks incredible restrictive, does it? Thankfully we are not required to play like that as T4 fractals are easy enough but increasing the time spend per fractal just because while still leaving us with some of the worst instabilities conceived is a punch in the face.

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@Grogba.6204 said:Firebrand, Renegade, BS, Soulbeast, DPS Chrono (if you fancy pulls, skips, portals)

Looks incredible restrictive, does it? Thankfully we are not required to play like that as T4 fractals are easy enough but increasing the time spend per fractal just because >while still leaving us with some of the worst instabilities conceived is a punch in the face.

We can go even further.Go 4 DPS Chrono with TW + Core Warrior.

but also advise that we might consider biding our time rather than change our builds (yet again).

Yeah, thats probably the most anet thing ive heard this month.

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@Laila Lightness.8742 said:Its to make other classes apealing tooYou make other classes appealing by making them appealing. You don't do that by making everything equally unappealing. Because all that would mean is that everything would be kitten.

I still remember how in the first year of the game Anet finally reacted to voices of the ranger community telling them longbow was (then) extremely bad and that anyone wanting range option could only take shortbow, because LB was simply not an option. Anet's reaction? They nerfed SB. And they nerfed it hard. Funny thing, LB ended up as useless as it was before SB nerf, and it took long years (and multiple buffs) to make both usable again.

Hint: asking for more chrono nerfs won't make your class (whichever it may be) more useful.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:Its to make other classes apealing tooYou make other classes appealing
by making them appealing
. You don't do that by making everything equally unappealing. Because all that would mean is that everything would be kitten.

I still remember how in the first year of the game Anet finally reacted to voices of the ranger community telling them longbow was (then) extremely bad and that anyone wanting range option could only take shortbow, because LB was simply not an option. Anet's reaction? They nerfed SB. And they nerfed it
hard
. Funny thing, LB ended up as useless as it was before SB nerf, and it took long years (and multiple buffs) to make both usable again.

Just trying to se posetive side chrono was overpowered. And nothing can be done

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

I still remember how in the first year of the game Anet finally reacted to voices of the ranger community telling them longbow was (then) extremely bad and that anyone wanting range option could only take shortbow, because LB was simply not an option. Anet's reaction? They nerfed SB. And they nerfed it hard. Funny thing, LB ended up as useless as it was before SB nerf, and it took long years (and multiple buffs) to make both usable again.

Anet also had the splendid idea to add an instability that stole boons from players while also making it virtually impossible for guardian players to enter high level fractals thanks to dishing out either retaliation or protection at a time boon removal/corrupt was even more limited than it is nowadays. The Dev team might have created a fun MMO but the balance side has been a shitshow forever.

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@Laila Lightness.8742 said:

@"Astralporing.1957" said:"nothing can be done" is a really pessimistic view. it signifies you've already given up on Anet being able to balance the game well.

For they made classes if they want it to do that then its supposed to do that and done is doneSo, if they messed up we're supposed to accept that they meant to mess up, and done is done so we should be ignoring the problem which will thus never get fixed?

Like i said, a very pessimistic view.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Warscythes.9307 said:There hasn't been any major shake up in the meta for the past couple years. The biggest thing would be that it is now optimal to take one druid instead of two. That's it.Depends on what you call a major meta shakeup. In the overall group composition, you're right. So far we've managed to free two slots (one warrior, and one druid) for other options, and dps slots are a bit more open now than they were before, but that's it. that's on group level only, however.

On individual level it is a bit different. There hadn't been a class that didn't get through at least small gear changes. Some classes were dropping in and out of the meta. Some classes went through some major changes, associated with need of costly regearing. Some had to go through it more than once. And support classes (the ones that the least number of people are already willing to play) are getting hit the most. Basically, as a support you have to assume that the next balance change (and sometimes even a sudden unexpected patch between those) can make you change the gear you use and the way you play. For many players that's extremely disheartening. It's like having someone burn your new house down every time right at the moment you finally managed to get used to it.

Exactly, the meta has changed multiple times ever since raids were introduced with HoT. Last year, 1 druid and 1 warrior spot were removed in favor of dps (with the first changes to have certain skills affect 10 players).

This year alone, Chrono has seen 2 major reworks which while in the end not changing the meta up did see players who are playing this class forced to regear and readapt their play styles. Factor in the 2 more reworks of Runes/Sigils which also required regearing of Chronos (and druids to some extent), the 2 main carry professions for raids:
  • which are the most expensive to gear
  • were usually tasked/burdened with the most effort and mechanics in raids and fractals
  • are in constant lack because of the effort and gold required to gear them

Were forced to change play style and gear 4 times. This could have been solved better (and given how Arenanet put out this statement:
They seem to have noticed the minor fubar.)

I'm all for balance, but keep it some what manageable for people who are not full legendary geared (I am, but many others are not).

I find the notion hilarious that people pretend as though they can't play they favorite support class. In general, and this is valid across ALL MMOs, support roles are always massively underrepresented. Most people just want to play a damage dealer and not care about anything else (especially here where support roles come with extra tasks and burdens).

@Warscythes.9307 said:Chrono is still mandatory everywhere because the alternative is simply not there.Exactly. And Anet is not willing to create such an alternative. Yet they will still keep nerfing chrono down until it's so bad noone will want to take it. And it also seems they are eyeing druid and warrior too.Not that other support classes (or dps classes for that matter) can feel safe. Only necros can feel safe in knowing they will always be on the bottom and their any forays into the meta are purely accidental.

Basically, if you don't have several classes and few gear sets for them, and aren't willing to change builds/rotations on them every now and then, high end content is likely not for you. Because Anet
is
going to mess with your beloved class at some point, making it into something you won't recognize anymore.

Exactly.

The assumption that by nerfing chrono everything will get better is in the very premise flawed. None of the other support classes remotely comes close to what chrono can/could do. Bringing chrono down to other support class level (many of which are not pure support builds by the way but rather hybrid builds, which has been pointed out multiple times by now) while keeping other support builds weak (or sticking to hybrid builds) only makes the meta more difficult. It would have been better to bring other support up or close to chronos level.

That's ONLY from a PvE perspective. How were Firebrand and Scourge fairing in WvW until now? Total dominance you say? I wonder how they will fare after this patch? Absolute, complete total dominance you say? Cool balance.

On my lunch break so I will keep this relatively short.

Yes one druid spot and one warrior spot stopped be mandatory. However you are still welcome to run them in every single team comp. It is just no longer the single optimal build and that is good. The fact remains that meta changes very very slowly over the past couple years that the notion your build and class will suddenly be unplayable is unfounded.

As for gearing, I always find this weird. I don't deny boon gear is very out of line in terms of cost and it is expensive to regear. However in terms of the poster's concern, you could just have a full set of full ministrel or commander with leadership runes and be set forever right from the start. The goal is to hit 100% and then minmax the rest for damage but that is mostly a concern for veteran players instead of new raiders. Is mostly the veterans who care about hitting 10k chrono dps while tanking and swapping to minmax damage when balance happen. If you just want to support, take full boon duration and you are set.

I agree that nerfing chrono without introducing alternatives will not solve the issue. But last patch it was definitely overpowered where it provided every single boon by itself. It was going to be nerfed and you will find little people disagree. I think they are hesitant to bring other support up to chrono's level simply because chrono has been overpowered for so long that they cannot draw a line. Is it really healthy for one class to provide quickness and alacrity? The arguably two most important boons in the game? As of last patch it seems to be yes, so now they can finally push others towards that line.

As for scourge/fb comment? They have been nerfed pretty much every single patch due to wvw as well just like chrono. If something is an issue then is an issue, you don't see others say bring druid or tempest to fb level as that would be ridiculous. A basis has to be established and I think they just determined what the line should be.

Anyway I think we are a bit off topic now for the OP's question. The answer is basically no, it is unlikely any one meta class will be literally unplayable so your guildies don't have to worry about it. It is much more likely there will be alternatives.

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Have fun with 100CM now. Gonna stack guardians and druid spirit because without stability and aegis chains its just one festival of knockdowns/knockbacks.

With the nerf to chrono's capacity to protect the group you simply removed eles as DPS and replaced them even harder with guardian.

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@Warscythes.9307 said:

@Warscythes.9307 said:There hasn't been any major shake up in the meta for the past couple years. The biggest thing would be that it is now optimal to take one druid instead of two. That's it.Depends on what you call a major meta shakeup. In the overall group composition, you're right. So far we've managed to free two slots (one warrior, and one druid) for other options, and dps slots are a bit more open now than they were before, but that's it. that's on group level only, however.

On individual level it is a bit different. There hadn't been a class that didn't get through at least small gear changes. Some classes were dropping in and out of the meta. Some classes went through some major changes, associated with need of costly regearing. Some had to go through it more than once. And support classes (the ones that the least number of people are already willing to play) are getting hit the most. Basically, as a support you have to assume that the next balance change (and sometimes even a sudden unexpected patch between those) can make you change the gear you use and the way you play. For many players that's extremely disheartening. It's like having someone burn your new house down every time right at the moment you finally managed to get used to it.

Exactly, the meta has changed multiple times ever since raids were introduced with HoT. Last year, 1 druid and 1 warrior spot were removed in favor of dps (with the first changes to have certain skills affect 10 players).

This year alone, Chrono has seen 2 major reworks which while in the end not changing the meta up did see players who are playing this class forced to regear and readapt their play styles. Factor in the 2 more reworks of Runes/Sigils which also required regearing of Chronos (and druids to some extent), the 2 main carry professions for raids:
  • which are the most expensive to gear
  • were usually tasked/burdened with the most effort and mechanics in raids and fractals
  • are in constant lack because of the effort and gold required to gear them

Were forced to change play style and gear 4 times. This could have been solved better (and given how Arenanet put out this statement:
They seem to have noticed the minor fubar.)

I'm all for balance, but keep it some what manageable for people who are not full legendary geared (I am, but many others are not).

I find the notion hilarious that people pretend as though they can't play they favorite support class. In general, and this is valid across ALL MMOs, support roles are always massively underrepresented. Most people just want to play a damage dealer and not care about anything else (especially here where support roles come with extra tasks and burdens).

@Warscythes.9307 said:Chrono is still mandatory everywhere because the alternative is simply not there.Exactly. And Anet is not willing to create such an alternative. Yet they will still keep nerfing chrono down until it's so bad noone will want to take it. And it also seems they are eyeing druid and warrior too.Not that other support classes (or dps classes for that matter) can feel safe. Only necros can feel safe in knowing they will always be on the bottom and their any forays into the meta are purely accidental.

Basically, if you don't have several classes and few gear sets for them, and aren't willing to change builds/rotations on them every now and then, high end content is likely not for you. Because Anet
is
going to mess with your beloved class at some point, making it into something you won't recognize anymore.

Exactly.

The assumption that by nerfing chrono everything will get better is in the very premise flawed. None of the other support classes remotely comes close to what chrono can/could do. Bringing chrono down to other support class level (many of which are not pure support builds by the way but rather hybrid builds, which has been pointed out multiple times by now) while keeping other support builds weak (or sticking to hybrid builds) only makes the meta more difficult. It would have been better to bring other support up or close to chronos level.

That's ONLY from a PvE perspective. How were Firebrand and Scourge fairing in WvW until now? Total dominance you say? I wonder how they will fare after this patch? Absolute, complete total dominance you say? Cool balance.

On my lunch break so I will keep this relatively short.

Yes one druid spot and one warrior spot stopped be mandatory. However you are still welcome to run them in every single team comp. It is just no longer the single optimal build and that is good. The fact remains that meta changes very very slowly over the past couple years that the notion your build and class will suddenly be unplayable is unfounded.

As for gearing, I always find this weird. I don't deny boon gear is very out of line in terms of cost and it is expensive to regear. However in terms of the poster's concern, you could just have a full set of full ministrel or commander with leadership runes and be set forever right from the start. The goal is to hit 100% and then minmax the rest for damage but that is mostly a concern for veteran players instead of new raiders. Is mostly the veterans who care about hitting 10k chrono dps while tanking and swapping to minmax damage when balance happen. If you just want to support, take full boon duration and you are set.

What kind of argument is that?

So you are saying, the incompetent pleb who went full minstrel and did not optimize his gear is to be congratulated for his laziness while the player who invested time and money to optimize his gear and build was wrong? A great argument.

I'm sure many players would have geared differently if they had future knowledge. The fact that one could gear full minstrel or commander (and thus lose out on a ton of efficiency and optimization) is no argument that players were incorrect to properly gear.

@Warscythes.9307 said:

I agree that nerfing chrono without introducing alternatives will not solve the issue. But last patch it was definitely overpowered where it provided every single boon by itself. It was going to be nerfed and you will find little people disagree. I think they are hesitant to bring other support up to chrono's level simply because chrono has been overpowered for so long that they cannot draw a line. Is it really healthy for one class to provide quickness and alacrity? The arguably two most important boons in the game? As of last patch it seems to be yes, so now they can finally push others towards that line.

I'm not going to rehash the entire argument about how chrono was the only pure boon support build in the game. You have an opinion, I have one and every other person has one too. Let's keep it at: I agree that nerfing chrono without introducing alternatives will not solve the issue.

@Warscythes.9307 said:

As for scourge/fb comment? They have been nerfed pretty much every single patch due to wvw as well just like chrono. If something is an issue then is an issue, you don't see others say bring druid or tempest to fb level as that would be ridiculous. A basis has to be established and I think they just determined what the line should be.

Considering FB and scourge have been meta and go-to builds for WvW ever since PoF, they have not been nerfed hard enough if we are to apply the same logic people apply to chrono.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Warscythes.9307 said:There hasn't been any major shake up in the meta for the past couple years. The biggest thing would be that it is now optimal to take one druid instead of two. That's it.Depends on what you call a major meta shakeup. In the overall group composition, you're right. So far we've managed to free two slots (one warrior, and one druid) for other options, and dps slots are a bit more open now than they were before, but that's it. that's on group level only, however.

On individual level it is a bit different. There hadn't been a class that didn't get through at least small gear changes. Some classes were dropping in and out of the meta. Some classes went through some major changes, associated with need of costly regearing. Some had to go through it more than once. And support classes (the ones that the least number of people are already willing to play) are getting hit the most. Basically, as a support you have to assume that the next balance change (and sometimes even a sudden unexpected patch between those) can make you change the gear you use and the way you play. For many players that's extremely disheartening. It's like having someone burn your new house down every time right at the moment you finally managed to get used to it.

Exactly, the meta has changed multiple times ever since raids were introduced with HoT. Last year, 1 druid and 1 warrior spot were removed in favor of dps (with the first changes to have certain skills affect 10 players).

This year alone, Chrono has seen 2 major reworks which while in the end not changing the meta up did see players who are playing this class forced to regear and readapt their play styles. Factor in the 2 more reworks of Runes/Sigils which also required regearing of Chronos (and druids to some extent), the 2 main carry professions for raids:
  • which are the most expensive to gear
  • were usually tasked/burdened with the most effort and mechanics in raids and fractals
  • are in constant lack because of the effort and gold required to gear them

Were forced to change play style and gear 4 times. This could have been solved better (and given how Arenanet put out this statement:
They seem to have noticed the minor fubar.)

I'm all for balance, but keep it some what manageable for people who are not full legendary geared (I am, but many others are not).

I find the notion hilarious that people pretend as though they can't play they favorite support class. In general, and this is valid across ALL MMOs, support roles are always massively underrepresented. Most people just want to play a damage dealer and not care about anything else (especially here where support roles come with extra tasks and burdens).

@Warscythes.9307 said:Chrono is still mandatory everywhere because the alternative is simply not there.Exactly. And Anet is not willing to create such an alternative. Yet they will still keep nerfing chrono down until it's so bad noone will want to take it. And it also seems they are eyeing druid and warrior too.Not that other support classes (or dps classes for that matter) can feel safe. Only necros can feel safe in knowing they will always be on the bottom and their any forays into the meta are purely accidental.

Basically, if you don't have several classes and few gear sets for them, and aren't willing to change builds/rotations on them every now and then, high end content is likely not for you. Because Anet
is
going to mess with your beloved class at some point, making it into something you won't recognize anymore.

Exactly.

The assumption that by nerfing chrono everything will get better is in the very premise flawed. None of the other support classes remotely comes close to what chrono can/could do. Bringing chrono down to other support class level (many of which are not pure support builds by the way but rather hybrid builds, which has been pointed out multiple times by now) while keeping other support builds weak (or sticking to hybrid builds) only makes the meta more difficult. It would have been better to bring other support up or close to chronos level.

That's ONLY from a PvE perspective. How were Firebrand and Scourge fairing in WvW until now? Total dominance you say? I wonder how they will fare after this patch? Absolute, complete total dominance you say? Cool balance.

On my lunch break so I will keep this relatively short.

Yes one druid spot and one warrior spot stopped be mandatory. However you are still welcome to run them in every single team comp. It is just no longer the single optimal build and that is good. The fact remains that meta changes very very slowly over the past couple years that the notion your build and class will suddenly be unplayable is unfounded.

As for gearing, I always find this weird. I don't deny boon gear is very out of line in terms of cost and it is expensive to regear. However in terms of the poster's concern, you could just have a full set of full ministrel or commander with leadership runes and be set forever right from the start. The goal is to hit 100% and then minmax the rest for damage but that is mostly a concern for veteran players instead of new raiders. Is mostly the veterans who care about hitting 10k chrono dps while tanking and swapping to minmax damage when balance happen. If you just want to support, take full boon duration and you are set.

What kind of argument is that?

So you are saying, the incompetent pleb who went full minstrel and did not optimize his gear is to be congratulated for his laziness while the player who invested time and money to optimize his gear and build was wrong? A great argument.

I'm sure many players would have geared differently if they had future knowledge. The fact that one could gear full minstrel or commander (and thus lose out on a ton of efficiency and optimization) is no argument that players were incorrect to properly gear.

I agree that nerfing chrono without introducing alternatives will not solve the issue. But last patch it was definitely overpowered where it provided every single boon by itself. It was going to be nerfed and you will find little people disagree. I think they are hesitant to bring other support up to chrono's level simply because chrono has been overpowered for so long that they cannot draw a line. Is it really healthy for one class to provide quickness and alacrity? The arguably two most important boons in the game? As of last patch it seems to be yes, so now they can finally push others towards that line.

I'm not going to rehash the entire argument about how chrono was the only pure boon support build in the game. You have an opinion, I have one and every other person has one too. Let's keep it at:
I agree that nerfing chrono without introducing alternatives will not solve the issue.

As for scourge/fb comment? They have been nerfed pretty much every single patch due to wvw as well just like chrono. If something is an issue then is an issue, you don't see others say bring druid or tempest to fb level as that would be ridiculous. A basis has to be established and I think they just determined what the line should be.

Considering FB and scourge have been meta and go-to builds for WvW ever since PoF, they have not been nerfed hard enough if we are to apply the same logic people apply to chrono.

The argument is simply that the gear is not completely invalidated if you are a newbie who just got his/her gear which is the case at hand. You start with full commanders and all that's really changed in essence is how to fit in more zerker gear without dropping below 100% BD. None of the meta changes is going to make all your boon duration gear useless which is the concern here. The only addition is more zerker which is tons more simple to obtain. There is no "now I have to farm 2 months all over again for a new set of gear." You use the old set just fine.

As for FB and Scourge, they were really only pushing out other classes in the beginning. However they did not really stop other classes from able to join the group which is what chrono/druid is essentially doing. Not to mention Chrono/druid has been dominant for 2 expansions instead of 1. You can argue that they have not been nerfed as hard as chrono, but you can't really argue that they have not been nerfed just much as in frequency in this expansion. The reason is really that the problem hasn't gotten to the severity where others can't play yet as the biggest contributor to wvw is always people. Can't be chooser if you are a begger.

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@Warscythes.9307 said:

@Warscythes.9307 said:There hasn't been any major shake up in the meta for the past couple years. The biggest thing would be that it is now optimal to take one druid instead of two. That's it.Depends on what you call a major meta shakeup. In the overall group composition, you're right. So far we've managed to free two slots (one warrior, and one druid) for other options, and dps slots are a bit more open now than they were before, but that's it. that's on group level only, however.

On individual level it is a bit different. There hadn't been a class that didn't get through at least small gear changes. Some classes were dropping in and out of the meta. Some classes went through some major changes, associated with need of costly regearing. Some had to go through it more than once. And support classes (the ones that the least number of people are already willing to play) are getting hit the most. Basically, as a support you have to assume that the next balance change (and sometimes even a sudden unexpected patch between those) can make you change the gear you use and the way you play. For many players that's extremely disheartening. It's like having someone burn your new house down every time right at the moment you finally managed to get used to it.

Exactly, the meta has changed multiple times ever since raids were introduced with HoT. Last year, 1 druid and 1 warrior spot were removed in favor of dps (with the first changes to have certain skills affect 10 players).

This year alone, Chrono has seen 2 major reworks which while in the end not changing the meta up did see players who are playing this class forced to regear and readapt their play styles. Factor in the 2 more reworks of Runes/Sigils which also required regearing of Chronos (and druids to some extent), the 2 main carry professions for raids:
  • which are the most expensive to gear
  • were usually tasked/burdened with the most effort and mechanics in raids and fractals
  • are in constant lack because of the effort and gold required to gear them

Were forced to change play style and gear 4 times. This could have been solved better (and given how Arenanet put out this statement:
They seem to have noticed the minor fubar.)

I'm all for balance, but keep it some what manageable for people who are not full legendary geared (I am, but many others are not).

I find the notion hilarious that people pretend as though they can't play they favorite support class. In general, and this is valid across ALL MMOs, support roles are always massively underrepresented. Most people just want to play a damage dealer and not care about anything else (especially here where support roles come with extra tasks and burdens).

@Warscythes.9307 said:Chrono is still mandatory everywhere because the alternative is simply not there.Exactly. And Anet is not willing to create such an alternative. Yet they will still keep nerfing chrono down until it's so bad noone will want to take it. And it also seems they are eyeing druid and warrior too.Not that other support classes (or dps classes for that matter) can feel safe. Only necros can feel safe in knowing they will always be on the bottom and their any forays into the meta are purely accidental.

Basically, if you don't have several classes and few gear sets for them, and aren't willing to change builds/rotations on them every now and then, high end content is likely not for you. Because Anet
is
going to mess with your beloved class at some point, making it into something you won't recognize anymore.

Exactly.

The assumption that by nerfing chrono everything will get better is in the very premise flawed. None of the other support classes remotely comes close to what chrono can/could do. Bringing chrono down to other support class level (many of which are not pure support builds by the way but rather hybrid builds, which has been pointed out multiple times by now) while keeping other support builds weak (or sticking to hybrid builds) only makes the meta more difficult. It would have been better to bring other support up or close to chronos level.

That's ONLY from a PvE perspective. How were Firebrand and Scourge fairing in WvW until now? Total dominance you say? I wonder how they will fare after this patch? Absolute, complete total dominance you say? Cool balance.

On my lunch break so I will keep this relatively short.

Yes one druid spot and one warrior spot stopped be mandatory. However you are still welcome to run them in every single team comp. It is just no longer the single optimal build and that is good. The fact remains that meta changes very very slowly over the past couple years that the notion your build and class will suddenly be unplayable is unfounded.

As for gearing, I always find this weird. I don't deny boon gear is very out of line in terms of cost and it is expensive to regear. However in terms of the poster's concern, you could just have a full set of full ministrel or commander with leadership runes and be set forever right from the start. The goal is to hit 100% and then minmax the rest for damage but that is mostly a concern for veteran players instead of new raiders. Is mostly the veterans who care about hitting 10k chrono dps while tanking and swapping to minmax damage when balance happen. If you just want to support, take full boon duration and you are set.

What kind of argument is that?

So you are saying, the incompetent pleb who went full minstrel and did not optimize his gear is to be congratulated for his laziness while the player who invested time and money to optimize his gear and build was wrong? A great argument.

I'm sure many players would have geared differently if they had future knowledge. The fact that one could gear full minstrel or commander (and thus lose out on a ton of efficiency and optimization) is no argument that players were incorrect to properly gear.

I agree that nerfing chrono without introducing alternatives will not solve the issue. But last patch it was definitely overpowered where it provided every single boon by itself. It was going to be nerfed and you will find little people disagree. I think they are hesitant to bring other support up to chrono's level simply because chrono has been overpowered for so long that they cannot draw a line. Is it really healthy for one class to provide quickness and alacrity? The arguably two most important boons in the game? As of last patch it seems to be yes, so now they can finally push others towards that line.

I'm not going to rehash the entire argument about how chrono was the only pure boon support build in the game. You have an opinion, I have one and every other person has one too. Let's keep it at:
I agree that nerfing chrono without introducing alternatives will not solve the issue.

As for scourge/fb comment? They have been nerfed pretty much every single patch due to wvw as well just like chrono. If something is an issue then is an issue, you don't see others say bring druid or tempest to fb level as that would be ridiculous. A basis has to be established and I think they just determined what the line should be.

Considering FB and scourge have been meta and go-to builds for WvW ever since PoF, they have not been nerfed hard enough if we are to apply the same logic people apply to chrono.

The argument is simply that the gear is not completely invalidated if you are a newbie who just got his/her gear which is the case at hand. You start with full commanders and all that's really changed in essence is how to fit in more zerker gear without dropping below 100% BD. None of the meta changes is going to make all your boon duration gear useless which is the concern here. The only addition is more zerker which is tons more simple to obtain. There is no "now I have to farm 2 months all over again for a new set of gear." You use the old set just fine.

What about Rune and Sigil changes? Leadership runes?

Sure, every single time players had to "simply" replace more Berserker gear with more Commander (or Minstrel) gear. Beginning of the year you did not start with full Commander. You started with full Berserker and 3-4 pieces Commander. If this gear was ascended, you then either had to salvage Leadership Runes out of your armor or re-farm them. At 1-2 hours per Leadership rune, no small feat

@Warscythes.9307 said:As for FB and Scourge, they were really only pushing out other classes in the beginning. However they did not really stop other classes from able to join the group which is what chrono/druid is essentially doing. Not to mention Chrono/druid has been dominant for 2 expansions instead of 1. You can argue that they have not been nerfed as hard as chrono, but you can't really argue that they have not been nerfed just much as in frequency in this expansion. The reason is really that the problem hasn't gotten to the severity where others can't play yet as the biggest contributor to wvw is always people. Can't be chooser if you are a begger.

Chrono was pushing out other classes the same way FB and Scourge were. Chrono was the best boon support for raids, alternatives existed.

FB was/is by far the best support/heal for WvW. Other options existed and were played because the amount of optimization for WvW and control people have about who joins is way lower. Druids and unwanted classes getting kicked from 50 mann WvW squads was and is real.

You are selective applying subjective perception when in reality, FB and Scourge deserve just as hard a wack for their dominance in WvW as Chronos did in raids (not to mention that chrono besides being an alternative boon support for WvW was pretty much useless outside of fractals/raids).

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@"Grogba.6204" said:I cannot fathom why they would ship this patch, tell us to expect further balance updates in the foreseeable future (ep 5?) but also advise that we might consider biding our time rather than change our builds (yet again).

It's cool, just don't play the game until then. It's what I do.

We've been in this state for over a year now where anet balances with future balance patches in mind, resulting half of the class (chrono) being broken in either a good, weird or really bad way and them expecting you to work with just the other half. It's infuriating. "Just wait it out" is the official stance, when we get a patch every 3-6 months or small changes that force us to regear every 2-3 weeks like at the moment. It's unacceptable. Couple that with the fact that they balance out the fun and skill needed, but the requirement of having that class stays the same and the overpoweredness even grows. Good stuff.

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It's pretty funny the lengths people will go to in order to ensure the way they play is irrelevant every time the game changes; meta worship is expensive that way. Our group doesn't have that problem. Maybe it has something to do with us embracing the game being designed so we can play how we want. That way, when the game does change, you can still be successful in doing content. Oh well. GL meta pushers.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:Its to make other classes apealing tooYou make other classes appealing
by making them appealing
. You don't do that by making everything equally unappealing. Because all that would mean is that everything would be kitten.

I still remember how in the first year of the game Anet finally reacted to voices of the ranger community telling them longbow was (then) extremely bad and that anyone wanting range option could only take shortbow, because LB was simply not an option. Anet's reaction? They nerfed SB. And they nerfed it
hard
. Funny thing, LB ended up as useless as it was before SB nerf, and it took long years (and multiple buffs) to make both usable again.

Hint: asking for more chrono nerfs won't make your class (whichever it may be) more useful.

While you are somewhat correct the usefulness of a weapon is a relative thing and just buffing everything till its equally op is also a bad idea.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Warscythes.9307 said:There hasn't been any major shake up in the meta for the past couple years. The biggest thing would be that it is now optimal to take one druid instead of two. That's it.Depends on what you call a major meta shakeup. In the overall group composition, you're right. So far we've managed to free two slots (one warrior, and one druid) for other options, and dps slots are a bit more open now than they were before, but that's it. that's on group level only, however.

On individual level it is a bit different. There hadn't been a class that didn't get through at least small gear changes. Some classes were dropping in and out of the meta. Some classes went through some major changes, associated with need of costly regearing. Some had to go through it more than once. And support classes (the ones that the least number of people are already willing to play) are getting hit the most. Basically, as a support you have to assume that the next balance change (and sometimes even a sudden unexpected patch between those) can make you change the gear you use and the way you play. For many players that's extremely disheartening. It's like having someone burn your new house down every time right at the moment you finally managed to get used to it.

Exactly, the meta has changed multiple times ever since raids were introduced with HoT. Last year, 1 druid and 1 warrior spot were removed in favor of dps (with the first changes to have certain skills affect 10 players).

This year alone, Chrono has seen 2 major reworks which while in the end not changing the meta up did see players who are playing this class forced to regear and readapt their play styles. Factor in the 2 more reworks of Runes/Sigils which also required regearing of Chronos (and druids to some extent), the 2 main carry professions for raids:
  • which are the most expensive to gear
  • were usually tasked/burdened with the most effort and mechanics in raids and fractals
  • are in constant lack because of the effort and gold required to gear them

Were forced to change play style and gear 4 times. This could have been solved better (and given how Arenanet put out this statement:
They seem to have noticed the minor fubar.)

I'm all for balance, but keep it some what manageable for people who are not full legendary geared (I am, but many others are not).

I find the notion hilarious that people pretend as though they can't play they favorite support class. In general, and this is valid across ALL MMOs, support roles are always massively underrepresented. Most people just want to play a damage dealer and not care about anything else (especially here where support roles come with extra tasks and burdens).

@Warscythes.9307 said:Chrono is still mandatory everywhere because the alternative is simply not there.Exactly. And Anet is not willing to create such an alternative. Yet they will still keep nerfing chrono down until it's so bad noone will want to take it. And it also seems they are eyeing druid and warrior too.Not that other support classes (or dps classes for that matter) can feel safe. Only necros can feel safe in knowing they will always be on the bottom and their any forays into the meta are purely accidental.

Basically, if you don't have several classes and few gear sets for them, and aren't willing to change builds/rotations on them every now and then, high end content is likely not for you. Because Anet
is
going to mess with your beloved class at some point, making it into something you won't recognize anymore.

Exactly.

The assumption that by nerfing chrono everything will get better is in the very premise flawed. None of the other support classes remotely comes close to what chrono can/could do. Bringing chrono down to other support class level (many of which are not pure support builds by the way but rather hybrid builds, which has been pointed out multiple times by now) while keeping other support builds weak (or sticking to hybrid builds) only makes the meta more difficult. It would have been better to bring other support up or close to chronos level.

That's ONLY from a PvE perspective. How were Firebrand and Scourge fairing in WvW until now? Total dominance you say? I wonder how they will fare after this patch? Absolute, complete total dominance you say? Cool balance.

On my lunch break so I will keep this relatively short.

Yes one druid spot and one warrior spot stopped be mandatory. However you are still welcome to run them in every single team comp. It is just no longer the single optimal build and that is good. The fact remains that meta changes very very slowly over the past couple years that the notion your build and class will suddenly be unplayable is unfounded.

As for gearing, I always find this weird. I don't deny boon gear is very out of line in terms of cost and it is expensive to regear. However in terms of the poster's concern, you could just have a full set of full ministrel or commander with leadership runes and be set forever right from the start. The goal is to hit 100% and then minmax the rest for damage but that is mostly a concern for veteran players instead of new raiders. Is mostly the veterans who care about hitting 10k chrono dps while tanking and swapping to minmax damage when balance happen. If you just want to support, take full boon duration and you are set.

What kind of argument is that?

So you are saying, the incompetent pleb who went full minstrel and did not optimize his gear is to be congratulated for his laziness while the player who invested time and money to optimize his gear and build was wrong? A great argument.

I'm sure many players would have geared differently if they had future knowledge. The fact that one could gear full minstrel or commander (and thus lose out on a ton of efficiency and optimization) is no argument that players were incorrect to properly gear.

I agree that nerfing chrono without introducing alternatives will not solve the issue. But last patch it was definitely overpowered where it provided every single boon by itself. It was going to be nerfed and you will find little people disagree. I think they are hesitant to bring other support up to chrono's level simply because chrono has been overpowered for so long that they cannot draw a line. Is it really healthy for one class to provide quickness and alacrity? The arguably two most important boons in the game? As of last patch it seems to be yes, so now they can finally push others towards that line.

I'm not going to rehash the entire argument about how chrono was the only pure boon support build in the game. You have an opinion, I have one and every other person has one too. Let's keep it at:
I agree that nerfing chrono without introducing alternatives will not solve the issue.

As for scourge/fb comment? They have been nerfed pretty much every single patch due to wvw as well just like chrono. If something is an issue then is an issue, you don't see others say bring druid or tempest to fb level as that would be ridiculous. A basis has to be established and I think they just determined what the line should be.

Considering FB and scourge have been meta and go-to builds for WvW ever since PoF, they have not been nerfed hard enough if we are to apply the same logic people apply to chrono.

The argument is simply that the gear is not completely invalidated if you are a newbie who just got his/her gear which is the case at hand. You start with full commanders and all that's really changed in essence is how to fit in more zerker gear without dropping below 100% BD. None of the meta changes is going to make all your boon duration gear useless which is the concern here. The only addition is more zerker which is tons more simple to obtain. There is no "now I have to farm 2 months all over again for a new set of gear." You use the old set just fine.

What about Rune and Sigil changes? Leadership runes?

Sure, every single time players had to "simply" replace more Berserker gear with more Commander (or Minstrel) gear. Beginning of the year you did not start with full Commander. You started with full Berserker and 3-4 pieces Commander. If this gear was ascended, you then either had to salvage Leadership Runes out of your armor or re-farm them. At 1-2 hours per Leadership rune, no small feat

@Warscythes.9307 said:As for FB and Scourge, they were really only pushing out other classes in the beginning. However they did not really stop other classes from able to join the group which is what chrono/druid is essentially doing. Not to mention Chrono/druid has been dominant for 2 expansions instead of 1. You can argue that they have not been nerfed as hard as chrono, but you can't really argue that they have not been nerfed just much as in frequency in this expansion. The reason is really that the problem hasn't gotten to the severity where others can't play yet as the biggest contributor to wvw is always people. Can't be chooser if you are a begger.

Chrono was pushing out other classes the same way FB and Scourge were. Chrono was the best boon support for raids, alternatives existed.

FB was/is by far the best support/heal for WvW. Other options existed and were played because the amount of optimization for WvW and control people have about who joins is way lower. Druids and unwanted classes getting kicked from 50 mann WvW squads was and is real.

You are selective applying subjective perception when in reality, FB and Scourge deserve just as hard a wack for their dominance in WvW as Chronos did in raids (not to mention that chrono besides being an alternative boon support for WvW was pretty much useless outside of fractals/raids).

Personally I would say that new raiders should not start with mix of zerker and commander. You want the newbies to do their job first which is provide boons and slowly get used to more offensive gear instead of going straight to the top. Even snowcrow has a regular and optimal variant. The difference is honestly minimal and is better for new players to learn with some crutch extra BD. Sigil has really been relatively unchanged as the only truly important one is concentration. So really the regearing required is not nearly as drastic. Hell I would put the issue here mainly on support gear be too expensive but that's a whole other can of worms.

As for WvW, sure FB/Scourge remains overpowered. I don't really disagree, what I don't see is that they are so strong that makes squads not take other classes. Is true at the beginning couple of months but it did not last nearly as long as the chrono situation did. Commanders just want people these days, you hop in squad as a condi hammer warrior and nobody would bat an eye. Sure they need to be nerfed, but the urgency is just not there.

Really though what we are talking about here is pretty much way off topic now. You are not a stupid man and I am not Ohoni. We know our stuff but disagree on some details. Wanna call it since this feels fairly pointless as internet arguments can go on forever.

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