Holo/ENG, CC & Damage still to OP.. NERF IT!

Between the stealth & constant Sustain & Heal's & perma 25 stacks of might.. Stil to much.. As title says. Kill it!

obligatory reminder that holo was considered pretty fair before elixer U got buffed.

As it turns out, having shitloads of quickness and stability allows you to just spam skills like a maniac. Who would have guessed.

Since when do holos get 25 stacks of might

@Czerny.6530 said:Since when do holos get 25 stacks of might

They dont, at best they get 10 might photon forge + Corona

ye unless u roll elixir b and burn all ur cooldowns u can achieve 24 stacks of might \o/ but noone does that so yea. as for op, latest patch made holo's alot easier to kill, wait for elixir s and punish after it. elixir e wont stop that much so go for it, tbh is all l2p by this point sry to say

anyone saying holo needs more nerfs in the current meta is incredibly mistaken and should reevaluate their understanding of this game.

@"AngelsShadow.7360" said:anyone saying holo needs more nerfs in the current meta is incredibly mistaken and should reevaluate their understanding of this game.

I dare to say they do need some nerfs.

But not just holos. In general, there are certain classes with too much CC, packed with too much boon & self healing. Compare that with other classes like Revenant & Necromancer, and it's just too damn much. I'm not saying said classes don't have their own issues that should be addressed, but Holos are just too damn much.

@herrmartell.7109 said:

@"AngelsShadow.7360" said:anyone saying holo needs more nerfs in the current meta is incredibly mistaken and should reevaluate their understanding of this game.

As I mentionned in another post of that nature, Holo is Very powerful, but Extremely brittle. It's most often down to impecable timing. Holo is powerful and can down a player but is not sustainable if he deals damage, and doesn't deal damage if it tries to stay sustainable.

@Naxos.2503 said:

@herrmartell.7109 said:

@"AngelsShadow.7360" said:anyone saying holo needs more nerfs in the current meta is incredibly mistaken and should reevaluate their understanding of this game.

Brittle? How does it keep sustaining it's self right in the middle of a zergfest or in a 1v1?

@Vieux P.1238 said:

@Naxos.2503 said:

@herrmartell.7109 said:

@"AngelsShadow.7360" said:anyone saying holo needs more nerfs in the current meta is incredibly mistaken and should reevaluate their understanding of this game.

If it does sustain itself, it's at the cost of significant damage. As mentionned. It's biggest assets comes from -NON- Holo traits and skillsets. The removal of automatic Elixir S was one such sustain, thus severly diminishing that potential.

Holos are vulnerable to CC, and constantly carry massive tells whenever they play. They're easy to counter. The only way you Cannot counter a Holo is if they get the drop on you, and start with a knockback, which is not Something inherrent to Holos, warriors are capable of doing the same, and so do thieves : Namely classes with a known high damage output. Why holo cannot be considered a specialization that makes them on par with a DPS warrior or Thief is a mystery to me.

@Naxos.2503 said:

@Vieux P.1238 said:

@Naxos.2503 said:

@herrmartell.7109 said:

@"AngelsShadow.7360" said:anyone saying holo needs more nerfs in the current meta is incredibly mistaken and should reevaluate their understanding of this game.

Every good players i faced use there huge CC followed by the huge attack with massive damage that takes 3/4 of your life points cuz your CC'ed FROM STEALTH MOD.

@"AngelsShadow.7360" said:anyone saying holo needs more nerfs in the current meta is incredibly mistaken and should reevaluate their understanding of this game.

I would say the damage and CC needs a nerf, insofar as almost every class needs a damage and CC nerf because the overall damage and CC output in PvP is too high. But holo's relative position right now is just fine, matches their design.

As for sustain, that literally just got nerfed. OP, can you not read patch notes? Almost all of the sustain for holo is coming from the core class, which has been nerfed pretty hard.

And as other mentioned, 25 might is not realistic without a boon supplier on your team, or some really quirky off-meta build.

@Vieux P.1238 said:

@Naxos.2503 said:

@Vieux P.1238 said:

@Naxos.2503 said:

@herrmartell.7109 said:

@"AngelsShadow.7360" said:anyone saying holo needs more nerfs in the current meta is incredibly mistaken and should reevaluate their understanding of this game.

I Believe that's where your team mates are supposed to jump in. Also, stun breaks, they're a thing.

@Naxos.2503 said:

@Vieux P.1238 said:

@Naxos.2503 said:

@Vieux P.1238 said:

@Naxos.2503 said:

@herrmartell.7109 said:

@"AngelsShadow.7360" said:anyone saying holo needs more nerfs in the current meta is incredibly mistaken and should reevaluate their understanding of this game.

Except for thieves that can evade for ever, you can't out stun something that chains CC that many times. It's broken & none of you that mains it wants to admit it.

@Naxos.2503 said:

@herrmartell.7109 said:

@"AngelsShadow.7360" said:anyone saying holo needs more nerfs in the current meta is incredibly mistaken and should reevaluate their understanding of this game.

The problem is that experience says that other classes cannot outperform a Holo even with the very same impecable timing.

Holo is powerful and can down a player but is not sustainable if he deals damage, and doesn't deal damage if it tries to stay sustainable.

For example, an ele cannot decide if he wants to deal high damage or become sustainable, and swap between the two in the middle of a fight. And thereis were you see the inherent over power in the Holo, as they are given that choice, whereas other classes must pick 1 and are stuck with that for the rest of the battle. It just seems that the tradeoffs put on the Holo are not punishing enough as with the rest.

@herrmartell.7109 said:

@Naxos.2503 said:

@herrmartell.7109 said:

@"AngelsShadow.7360" said:anyone saying holo needs more nerfs in the current meta is incredibly mistaken and should reevaluate their understanding of this game.

Holo is powerful and can down a player but is not sustainable if he deals damage, and doesn't deal damage if it tries to stay sustainable.

I'd actually consider Eles out of all classes to Be able to do just that though, by Simply switching to attunements.

I do main a holo, I Constantly get screwed over by people's CC, pulls in particular are good at disrupting me, because they throw me off position, which is critical to perform well as a Holo. I'm also limited to -1- stunbreak with consequential cooldown, if I want to deal high damage. My only recourse is to chain a player to death by opening with a knockdown, Following with a bullethail to increase my condi damage, switch to sword pistol, use the big laser, glue shot so they stay in the field of fire, then finish with a sword jump, which gives me quickness.

In case that's not obvious this is Not a "Push 1 button = Win" like everyone makes it seems. This is a full rotation that if It is broken at Any point results in my death : because being interrupted screws with cooldown, throws me off balance, and generally switch the advantage entirely to the other side.

If someone stunbreak my initial opening, they generally proc a damage reflection which throws my bullet right at me, which, with my low HP (in order to deal damage) halves my healthbar.If someone dodges the laser burst, most of my damage from the chain is gone, and I have to duke it out with more than likely someone with a stronger, -More Reliable- damage ratio.

I've seen warriors Negate my Entire Chain of damage. Not dodge, Negate, they literally stand in front of me, invulnerable and caving my face in. Deadeyes can easily shoot me down Long before I can Start my chain. Mesmers are near impossible to get with that tactic. Rangers with longbows are the bane of my existence, with that instant long range Knock shot that screws my cooldown Every Time.I should also give the medal to scourges, which to this day, I have Never been able to beat in a one on one fight. Each time I see a scourge in the opposite team, I know that is a match I'll lose.

This high damage is not -easy-. It's Work. And it's faillible, otherwise I'd win my matches constantly.

Edit : Ignore the capital letter words, they're not meant to put emphasis, my keyboard automatically tries to correct words that arent french, and it tends to put capital letters Almost everywhere

I want to add Something since the main point of contention to everyone seems to be CC and damage.

Why nobody bothers Warriors about this ? They can kit their skills to Literally have all but their heal skill to do CC, most of them are Hard CC, Knockback, and Knockdown, and double as Damage. Why is that fine on warrior but isn't on Holo ? The actual Reason is that warriors dont rely on CC in competitive matches. If they did, you would not complain about Holo's ability to chain 3 CCs at max, when a warrior can chain constant CCs.

@Naxos.2503 said:

@herrmartell.7109 said:

@Naxos.2503 said:

@herrmartell.7109 said:

@"AngelsShadow.7360" said:anyone saying holo needs more nerfs in the current meta is incredibly mistaken and should reevaluate their understanding of this game.

Holo is powerful and can down a player but is not sustainable if he deals damage, and doesn't deal damage if it tries to stay sustainable.

This entire post is a L2P issue.

"I Constantly get screwed over by people's CC" - you shouldn't. You should be running the Crystal Configuration: Eclipse trait which gives you near-perma stability. Corona burst is always going to hit SOMETHING in a pvp situation unless you're 1v1-ing and your opponent dodges twice. I would bet 98%+ of holos run this trait in PvP. CC is a non-issue unless you're taking multiple cc's per pulse of corona burst.

"I'm also limited to -1- stunbreak with consequential cooldown, if I want to deal high damage." - You are not. Holo packs all the damage it needs in Photon Forge. That allows you to run Elixir S, Spectrum Shield, Elixir U, Elixir Gun, and other stunbreak utilities, since you don't need to run damaging kits in those slots.

" I should also give the medal to scourges, which to this day, I have Never been able to beat in a one on one fight" If you can't beat a scourge on Holo, you need to get better at Holo. It's just that simple - probably one of the easiest matchups tbh.

"If someone stunbreak my initial opening, they generally proc a damage reflection which throws my bullet right at me" - .. this shouldn't be a problem at all. Your Photon Forge attacks are melee except Blitz, which you can cancel early if they reflect.

"If someone dodges the laser burst, most of my damage from the chain is gone" - You're using it wrong. Use Prime Light Beam after they've wasted their dodges on your other skills. It's unblockable, so once they've dodged twice, they'll need to either take the damage and CC or burn a hard invuln.

"I've seen warriors Negate my Entire Chain of damage. Not dodge, Negate," - Again .. learn to play. You shouldn't be running through your entire chain of damage if they've got a hard invuln up. React to that. Stop attacking them. They should negate at most 1-2 hits of your damage before you stop.

Deadeyes and LB rangers, I will grant you. Those can be good counters to holo, but even then you have options.

Apologies for the takedown, but I feel if we're going to have a discussion about balance, it should be by people who know how to play their classes.. It's clear by your post that you .. uh .. at least aren't playing the same kind of build that we are talking about here.

Oh for crying out loud.

You do not base a Nerf on -One- build, if it affects All the other builds ! That was the point of my post. Again just because I play differently, doesn't mean I dont know how to play. I only play my Holo in competitive, and win slightly more than half of my matches, depending on what kind of team I face.

A nerf to damage affects All builds. A nerf to core abilities does too. It's a L2P issue, that much I agree on. Can we agree that I have My playstyle that I enjoy, and you have yours yet ?

If I can down a player using my rotation, it's successful. If it can be countered by most classes it's balanced. That should be simple.If we cant atleast be Civil, and you cant stop saying I dont know how to play, then go right ahead and tell me how better you fare. I have 37 matches won out 50, all 100% on engineer, pray tell, tell me how I dont know how to play my class.

Some of your points are obvious. In regard to warriors, that's an example that I already learned. Just because I've seen it once, doesn't mean I slam my head in the wall in the same manner. Doesn't make the argument any less valid. They can negate the entire chain if they so desire, that's the point of counter play.

I've said several times that I willingly choose to make my setup more brittle in order to get the "outrageous" damage everyone speaks of. It does the trick for me, because I know how to use it, and I can still be countered if I face someone with the right setup. I think that is Proper counterplay and thus doesn't need to be changed. One core issue with balances and nerfs is that people only look at the "offending" class, and never look at what all the other classes have available to counter it. When I face someone who Has the means to negate/mitigate/counter my damage and return my CC, I have a challenge. Sometime I fight players who also play a brittle class, and that when caught off guard get smushed, just as easily as I would, if I was caught off guard. There is Nothing wrong with that, if that is how people want to play and it yield results.

they don't get saved by passive S anymore; what else do you ask for??

@Miles Smiles.8951 said:they don't get saved by passive S anymore; what else do you ask for??

That is legitimately a change that I agreed on. The fact it was automatic, and did not require a skill slot made it too strong.

@"Naxos.2503" said:Oh for crying out loud.

You do not base a Nerf on -One- build, if it affects All the other builds ! That was the point of my post. Again just because I play differently, doesn't mean I dont know how to play. I only play my Holo in competitive, and win slightly more than half of my matches, depending on what kind of team I face.

A nerf to damage affects All builds. A nerf to core abilities does too. It's a L2P issue, that much I agree on. Can we agree that I have My playstyle that I enjoy, and you have yours yet ?

If I can down a player using my rotation, it's successful. If it can be countered by most classes it's balanced. That should be simple.If we cant atleast be Civil, and you cant stop saying I dont know how to play, then go right ahead and tell me how better you fare. I have 37 matches won out 50, all 100% on engineer, pray tell, tell me how I dont know how to play my class.

Some of your points are obvious. In regard to warriors, that's an example that I already learned. Just because I've seen it once, doesn't mean I slam my head in the wall in the same manner. Doesn't make the argument any less valid. They can negate the entire chain if they so desire, that's the point of counter play.

I've said several times that I willingly choose to make my setup more brittle in order to get the "outrageous" damage everyone speaks of. It does the trick for me, because I know how to use it, and I can still be countered if I face someone with the right setup. I think that is Proper counterplay and thus doesn't need to be changed. One core issue with balances and nerfs is that people only look at the "offending" class, and never look at what all the other classes have available to counter it. When I face someone who Has the means to negate/mitigate/counter my damage and return my CC, I have a challenge. Sometime I fight players who also play a brittle class, and that when caught off guard get smushed, just as easily as I would, if I was caught off guard. There is Nothing wrong with that, if that is how people want to play and it yield results.

It may do the trick for you .. though I question that if you've never beat a Scourge with it. I could probably beat any Scourge build on Holo even with no Holo major traits slotted at all.

The point though, is that you're not playing the same way as the vast majority of Holos out there.

For what it's worth, I think your playstyle is what Holo should be (high damage, but vulnerable to counterattack and cc)... but right now, people don't have to play that way. They can deal probably 95%+ of the damage you can, while also being much much more resilient by slotting the stability trait and defensive utilities.

@"coro.3176" said:

It may do the trick for you .. though I question that if you've never beat a Scourge with it. I could probably beat any Scourge build on Holo even with no Holo major traits slotted at all.

The point though, is that you're not playing the same way as the vast majority of Holos out there.

For what it's worth, I think your playstyle is what Holo should be... but right now, people don't have to play that way. They can deal probably 95%+ of the damage you can, while also being much much more resilient to damage by slotting the stability trait and defensive utilities.

Indeed, I play my holo based on the initial "Edge" mentality the class was presented in. I do add the twist in that I'm a condi centered Holo, which is why I use Storm, instead of Crystal. The explosion increases my damage output by a lot, and that is where my damage from (Likewise with the laser being an explosion, and having fire fields, to which I add heavy bleeding to).

As for scourge, my main issue is that they tend to use their fields defensively to wall off bottlenecks, with someone long ranged taking the shots on me from afar, using highly damaging fields to discourage, or maim me beyond the point I can do much against the duo. Generally, getting hit by 1 field of a scourge tend to sap away my health. It's Generally not a 1v1 thing. Holo is primarily short ranged, so area denials with strong damage fields like scourges are a good counter to them, depending on the map location.

I think they should remove the CC from shockwave and everything should be okay.

@otto.5684 said:I think they should remove the CC from shockwave and everything should be okay.

Might be too hard, though the duration of the CC could be lowered instead, by making it a knockdown instead of a launch, if it's really that big a deal. If Something is a problem, best take a scalpel to it, not a nuke.

For the nuke option, see how boonsharing went for Mesmer since last patch. I dont think Anybody is happy about that.

@otto.5684 said:I think they should remove the CC from shockwave and everything should be okay.

It's a start..That kitten is Broken as Kitten. It's AoE is 360 Up Down & sideways..& no wall's or anything obstructs it. Gimmy some of that none obstruction advantage on my Damage skill's plz.