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An open and Honest View of the game and the community(may contain spoilers)


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Hello.You May not know me. You may not even get to the end of this post. Heck, you might know me from my streams or my Youtube Vids. I happen to be a player of Guild Wars 2 and have been playing Guild Wars 2 for a Very long time, as well as having played Original Guild Wars for roughly the same amount of time. I have watched from a distance as the game i call home has grown, expanded, paused, started back up, seen highs and lows. I have seen things that have had me on the edge of my seat, and i have experienced things that have made me want to walk away. The Fact that i am even writing this is proof that obviously I have not left, even though there were many reasons why i could have.

To start, The game is constantly changing. it evolves over time in content and in mechanics and sometimes in difficulty. gone are the days where you needed a skill book to learn a skill, rather than simply walk up to commune at a hero point. Gone are the days where Arah was the Litmus test for practically every maxed out player in game, and in it's place are the CM raids and Fractals, as well as ranked pvp and wvw. There was a time where Edge of the Mists was a fantastic way to karma farm and rapidly level any alt character you have... and while EoTM still exists, the presence of people there 24 hours a day isn't. Don't even get me started on Balance changes.... as the changes have been ongoing for 6 years and, with every balance patch, something very interesting occurs, which i will touch on in a second.

Now all of these changes, sometimes very drastic ones, could make a player's head spin. and yes, there were times a change in the game has brought me close to leaving. But i didn't. I stuck around... and because i did so, i realized that these changes were actually quite necessary for the game itself to evolve and mature... for with every change, there is always a new and interesting way to enhance the very thing that games are meant to be, and that is FUN.

So I have been here for a while, watching, documenting, adjusting, embracing every change as it comes down the pike. and yes, before you go there, The Dev Team sometimes has made me scratch my head wondering "but WHY did you do this when it was perfectly fine before?" But then it dawns on me.... the reality of how a game is actually developed, and the immense effort and time that the developers, editors, balance team, living world team, administrators, and even the guy or gal that turns the lights out at night at Anet have to actually put in to bring US the community the best possible gaming experience they can. they set cadences on LW episodes, and have to sometimes delay them because in all reality, they want to give US the best possible product they can for that? delay it as much as you need to... and I will stand by you.

Remember when I mentioned the reactions to Balance patches? see the recent reactions to the recent patch. People wanting to leave the game because their mesmer was "destroyed" or their ability to one-shot with a deadeye rifle is now blockable. People raging because X doesn't work anymore and they wanted, nay, NEEDED X to work in order for them to be able to accomplish Y. and then the hate intensifies because a delay in the cadence of LW. and intensifies because of talk of further changes in the horizon. People that I know that have played since beta are losing their marbles because one signet was altered and raging all over the forums and internet itself because they wanted that to stay the way it was.guys... gals... all of you... calm the heck down. check yourself for a moment and try to remember something fundamentally important.

Guild wars 2 is a GAME. it's supposed to be FUN. if you stop having fun it becomes a job. it becomes work. This is not the first balance patch in the history of GW2, and i garuntee it won't be the last. Remember back in the day when Venomshare was a thing? or how about Massive Minion armies from using Rise? People got salty and enflammed back then too.... and they are still playing the game. They learned to adjust to the patch and carried on. and You know what? the game was and is still fun! Getting upset and wanting to walk away for a while is fine. I've done it, others have done it, even the most accomplished players in the game have done it. and we have all come back and have all continued to enjoy the game we love.The Community of Guild Wars 2 is as diverse as it is friendly, and we are constantly being referred to as the Friendliest and warmest community in MMOs Period. every day, even today as you read this... new accounts are being made, new players are entering Tyria, and new experiences are taking place. There will be players from all over the globe that are learning at the same pace we had to back when the game was in it's infant stage. The advantage these new players have? WE will be there to help them. Now say you are a new player entering Guild Wars 2, and from the very moment you step foot In Metrica Province you begin to see people complaining and hating on the game you are just discovering and are eager to learn. Or perhaps you have heard of how awesome PVP is here and you wanna try it out for yourself but the moment you step into Heart of the Mists, you begin reading very Toxic and very hateful speech towards other players. or better yet... you start in Queensdale and are just learning and spot a Vet, and after asking that Vet how X works, he/she tells you to "get gud" or "use the meta", rather than explaining to you HOW X actually works.Guild Wars 2 is evolving. it always has been. it always will be. we have had ups and downs. and we will continue to do so. and while, right now, you may be angry because one signet or one skill was "broken"(news flash, it was not broken) Before you Hang it up and walk away, I encourage you to do the following:

  1. Take a breath. it's not that serious.
  2. If it is that serious you're not having fun
  3. if you are not having fun try something else
  4. if all else fails, take a break and WAIT... because changes will happen again.

The one thing I don't wanna see? is people discouraging new players from playing this game. I find it rude and disrespectful. It is a sophmoric response to something that 100% has Not a Damn thing to do with them. as for hating on Developers? no offense... but "try" to see things from their point of view: they are busting their butts to give YOU the best possible game they can. That task takes time, effort and energy. The one thing you can do? BE PATIENT.

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Maybe every single person you know who has played since beta is wrong. Maybe they are right and you are wrong. Maybe people are growing tired or are simply burned out (which happens often during Winter time). Maybe a clearer structure is required to not discourage players to stick with the game especially during a time when monetization is clearly being pushed. There is a ton of reasons why people are upset this time and have been less upset in the past (doubtful, I'm quite sure people are always upset when balance nerfs hit).

@blackheartgary.8605 said:

  1. Take a breath. it's not that serious.

It never is, this is a game after all.

@blackheartgary.8605 said:

  1. If it is that serious you're not having fun

For many long time raiders it's less about fun, but obstacles to overcome to have fun. When incentive to play a game mode is not tied to rewards any longer (any player with x hundred amount of LI or above) there is a point where one asks themselves why put up with unnecessary hassle. Thus the raiding community dies and shrinks further. Same goes for spvp and WvW.

@blackheartgary.8605 said:

  1. if you are not having fun try something else
  2. if all else fails, take a break and WAIT... because changes will happen again.

Those two go together mostly, and that is exactly what people are doing, taking a break from the game. If they will be back, time will tell. That is one of GW2 strengths and weaknesses, it allows people to take a break and return without significant loss to progress.

@blackheartgary.8605 said:The one thing I don't wanna see? is people discouraging new players from playing this game. I find it rude and disrespectful. It is a sophmoric response to something that 100% has Not a kitten thing to do with them. as for hating on Developers? no offense... but "try" to see things from their point of view: they are busting their butts to give YOU the best possible game they can. That task takes time, effort and energy. The one thing you can do? BE PATIENT.

Hating on developers is childish and immature. Discouraging players from playing a game one enjoys is even more so and comes close to shooting ones self in the foot. I would not want to mix discouraged players with developing hating players though. One are simply discouraged, the others are not worth mentioning.

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@"Cyninja.2954" said:

  1. If it is that serious you're not having fun

For many long time raiders it's less about fun, but obstacles to overcome to have fun. When incentive to play a game mode is not tied to rewards any longer (any player with x hundred amount of LI or above) there is a point where one asks themselves why put up with unnecessary hassle. Thus the raiding community dies and shrinks further. Same goes for spvp and WvW.on this aspect i completely agree. IE there is only so many times one can defeat X before they begin to hunger for something else. I totally get that. it's the old addage of "how high is too high?" (don't answer that) players of all genres obviously want the rewards for their efforts to match the efforts they put into the game (ends justify the means) and i get that too, because the sense of accomplishment of X does in fact feel fun and rewarding. The reason i made this a point is: yes there are people that take this game way way way too seriously, and yes, if it is that serious then it stops becoming fun.

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I agree that if a change has made you upset or tired that maybe it is time to take a break. I've done that on multiple occasions and come back.

My latest break came because of the last balance patches and increasing cost of runes and sigils that resulted from how Anet implemented the salvaging mechanic. I don't really understand what the changes mean for my characters and since I have one of each race and profession it takes forever to retune them through expermentation. So, I take a break until I feel like messing with specs and changing armor etc. and getting gold to make that happen.

But in the end I enjoy this game so I always come back. It's a great place to escape to when the real world gets too sad and ugly. And for the most part I like the people I meet in Tyria.

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@"blackheartgary.8605" said:

The one thing I don't wanna see? is people discouraging new players from playing this game. I find it rude and disrespectful. It is a sophmoric response to something that 100% has Not a kitten thing to do with them. as for hating on Developers? no offense... but "try" to see things from their point of view: they are busting their butts to give YOU the best possible game they can. That task takes time, effort and energy. The one thing you can do? BE PATIENT.

I think this is a very solid TL;dr, and I appreciate the way you feel and the fact that you've expressed yourself on two key topics. I very much believe these two concepts:

  • Welcoming new players is a wonderful thing.
  • Respecting developers is very good, fair, and appropriate behavior. I'm not saying one must agree with everything they do, and I definitely don't mean to suggest that we ascribe to them a wealth of god-like powers, but respecting their perspective, effort, experience, and the knowledge they put into their work is spot on.
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@Dante.1763 said:@"blackheartgary.8605

So, i tried to read all of it, but ended up loosing my place, from what i read though i agree. The TLDR at the bottom is a good thing, but you should probably add some spaces between blocks of text where applicable to break up the wall you wrote :)as suggested, i broke it up into paragraphs(apparently when i tab in to indent the opening sentence on each, it causes a scroll option. no worries)

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I get your point of view but when it keeps happening over and over its less of a game and more of an act of self flagellation.

We get depressed about the most silly things but some times that depresses is telling use to move on.

There is a lack of real comment for the dev. them self who made each chose they need to come out and say why they did the chose they made and the chose they did not make.I am an ele player its what i want to play in this game but at all points it has been nerf into non use. Every update has nerf the class even the buffs where veiled nerfs. I not been able to play in a real way for months if not a year (i tried tempest last night it did not go well).

To just say hold on just dose not cut it any more it never realty did because the same thing keep happening.

This last update has comply destroy winters day for a lot of ppl. A time of joy has turn to a time of great pains and parting of ways. This is on anet please stop putting it on the ppl who are victimizes of these updates.

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I always say that we the players are the face of the game and even more us the veterans, we have to create and maintain a friendly atmosphere and attitude towards new players and always be helpful, helping the new players does help the game and can even bring future funding just by creating that atmosphere,the community is most of the times a major pro or con when choosing an MMO. While I see sometimes complains about the worsened community I agree but not to the degree that some believe and I think it's a bit worse on the US side than on EU but we are still one of the best MMO communities. So, to make it short, take care of the newbies and cultivate the positivity in them because if you are creating a negative environment and indirectly negative players, in the future you might encounter them in the content you usually do and you might be the target of the negativity you created.

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@Jski.6180 said:

There is a lack of real comment for the dev. them self who made each chose they need to come out and say why they did the chose they made and the chose they did not make. <--emphasis added.

This comment, quite honestly, took my breath away. Do you truly believe that developers should justify each decision? Should explain in detail why they did [one thing] and why they did not do [potentially countless alternatives]? Do you feel it would be productive to spend the many, many hours that would be required to discuss each of the changes they made? I am leery of such a process, especially when I know decisions are made based on dev observations, instincts, statistical analysis, extensive development and gaming experience, and an consistent, overall view of the game. (Keep in mind that few of us players truly view the game as a whole. As the OP said, we frequently want buffs for us, and nerfs for others.)

I believe that engaging with our players is good, and valuable, and highly desirable. I love it when we can post information about skill changes, as in the 12/11 update notes -- that's a great thing. I am delighted when a dev can get into a discussion on the forums, but I also know that devs read the forums more often than they post, and they keep up on player thoughts on a daily basis. But they need to develop, improve, hone, and expand the game, and I believe they post when they are able. But in the end, I believe they should spend the majority of their time and focus making the game and not talking about making the game. To do otherwise -- to get involved in the constant back-and-forth of explanation, question, justification, and counter-demand that the comment above appears to demand -- seems destined to lead to a complete lack of forward progress.

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@Nury.3062 said:I always say that we the players are the face of the game and even more us the veterans, we have to create and maintain a friendly atmosphere and attitude towards new players and always be helpful, helping the new players does help the game and can even bring future funding just by creating that atmosphere,the community is most of the times a major pro or con when choosing an MMO. While I see sometimes complains about the worsened community I agree but not to the degree that some believe and I think it's a bit worse on the US side than on EU but we are still one of the best MMO communities. So, to make it short, take care of the newbies and cultivate the positivity in them because if you are creating a negative environment and indirectly negative players, in the future you might encounter them in the content you usually do and you might be the target of the negativity you created.

I like this, particularly: Take care of the newbies; cultivate positivity. Words to live... or game... by. :+1:

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@Gaile Gray.6029 said:

There is a lack of real comment for the dev. them self who made each chose
they need to come out and say why they did the chose they made and the chose they did not make.
<--emphasis added.

This comment, quite honestly, took my breath away. Do you truly believe that developers should justify each decision? Should explain in detail why they did [one thing] and why they did not do [potentially a dozen alternatives]? Do you feel it would be productive to spend the many, many hours that would be required to discuss each of the changes they made, when decisions are made based on their observations, instincts, statistical analysis, extensive development and gaming experience, and an consistent, overall view of the game. (Keep in mind that few of us players truly view the game as a whole. As the OP said, we frequently want buffs for us, and nerfs for others.)

I believe that engaging with our players is good, and valuable, and highly desirable. I know that devs read the forums, and they keep up on player thoughts on a daily basis. But they need to develop, improve, hone, and expand the game, and I believe they post when they are able. But in the end, I believe they should spend the majority of their time and focus
making the game
and not
talking about making the game.
To do otherwise -- to get involved in the constant back-and-forth of explanation, question, justification, and counter-demand that the comment above seems to seek -- seems destined to lead to a complete lack of forward progress.

When there are big changes yes they need to justify is small things not so much. If you remove an effect from a class comply there got to be some thinking and reason for this. I am not trying to be mean about this but when example (its always going to be ele or scraper with me sry) Tempest Defense loses is Shocking Aura and becomes a stronger stun cc effect Stormsoul 33% longer stuns the dev. who did this needs to say why a def effect on ele was to much and why better stuns will help the class out. I have a scraper effect that was given a major changes as well but your not the right person to bring these to and i do not think to you to explain these things.

On the forms there only engagement from you and we all love you to death for it and that seems to be your main job. Are you able to talk for the other devs? Engagement needs to go both ways the player base like to know if there points of views are on the way devs want this game to move, are they silly points of views, are they crazy? Its not about every small thing its about major over all changes and what the point of the class is because right now only a few classes seem to have a real point.

I kind of feel like we need new class mission statements as the old core classes and elite spec. are very different.

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@Gaile Gray.6029 said:

@"Jski.6180" said:

There is a lack of real comment for the dev. them self who made each chose
they need to come out and say why they did the chose they made and the chose they did not make.
<--emphasis added.

This comment, quite honestly, took my breath away. Do you truly believe that developers should justify each decision? Should explain in detail why they did [one thing] and why they did not do [potentially countless alternatives]? Do you feel it would be productive to spend the many, many hours that would be required to discuss each of the changes they made? I am leery of such a process, especially when I know decisions are made based on dev observations, instincts, statistical analysis, extensive development and gaming experience, and an
consistent, overall view of the game
. (Keep in mind that few of us players truly view the game as a whole. As the OP said, we frequently want buffs for us, and nerfs for others.)

I believe that engaging with our players is good, and valuable, and highly desirable. I love it when we can post information about skill changes, as in the 12/11 update notes -- that's a great thing. I am delighted when a dev can get into a discussion on the forums, but I also know that devs read the forums more often than they post, and they keep up on player thoughts on a daily basis. But they need to develop, improve, hone, and expand the game, and I believe they post when they are able. But in the end, I believe they should spend the majority of their time and focus
making the game
and not
talking about making the game.
To do otherwise -- to get involved in the constant back-and-forth of explanation, question, justification, and counter-demand that the comment above appears to demand -- seems destined to lead to a complete lack of forward progress.

Also, it often doesn't work. I'm a big believer in explaining things, I like to think that if I explain the circumstances and the reasoning behind the decision then we can have an informed conversation and it will help people understand why I reached the decision I did. And sometimes that works.

Sometimes it's...actually it's worse than talking to a brick wall because they rarely answer back. Even when it should be an extremely simple explanation, like "We can't do that because it's illegal." it doesn't help. On more than one occasion in my job I've been told that if the law won't allow a client to do whatever it is they want then I should have it changed. And in case you're wondering no, I don't work for the government. I'm in no position to get any law changed (or at least no more than any other citizen) but apparently telling someone a law exists makes me responsible for it.

I'm not saying that anyone on this forum is anywhere near that bad, just giving an example (and yes, it has been a long week) of the fact that having someone explain a decision doesn't mean you'll be happy or even that it will make any more sense, it's just as likely it will end up in a round of ultimately pointless arguing over whether or not it was the right decision, even long after it's been made and cannot be changed.

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@"Jski.6180" said:

When there are big changes yes they need to justify is small things not so much. If you remove an effect from a class comply there got to be some thinking and reason for this. I am not trying to be mean about this but when example (its always going to be ele or scraper with me sry) Tempest Defense loses is Shocking Aura and becomes a stronger stun cc effect Stormsoul 33% longer stuns the dev. who did this needs to say why a def effect on ele was to much and why better stuns will help the class out. I have a scraper effect that was given a major changes as well but your not the right person to bring these to and i do not think to you to explain these things.

On the forms there only engagement from you and we all love you to death for it and that seems to be your main job. Are you able to talk for the other devs? Engagement needs to go both ways the player base like to know if there points of views are on the way devs want this game to move, are they silly points of views, are they crazy? Its not about every small thing its about major over all changes and what the point of the class is because right now only a few classes seem to have a real point.

I disagree with that. The devs do not have to justify a balance patch. And if it is a big change, they do tell us about it.

Gaile isn't the only dev that engages with people on the forums. There are a bunch of them that do (their names escape me, but i know Ben is one of them, he posts in the PVP sub forums fairly often.)

And the devs all have a life too. They should not spend every waking hour catering to the player base, nor should they be expected to respond to every forum post. They are allowed to enjoy their time in the game, same as the rest of us.

No, their views are not "silly" just because people disagree with the changes. And no, they are not "crazy" as you so elegantly put it.And every class has a point, if you don't like some of the changes to your favorite class, play a new one. Perhaps try a different build? It's not the end of the world, bud.

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@Gaile Gray.6029 said:

There is a lack of real comment for the dev. them self who made each chose
they need to come out and say why they did the chose they made and the chose they did not make.
<--emphasis added.

This comment, quite honestly, took my breath away. Do you truly believe that developers should justify each decision? Should explain in detail why they did [one thing] and why they did not do [potentially countless alternatives]? Do you feel it would be productive to spend the many, many hours that would be required to discuss each of the changes they made? I am leery of such a process, especially when I know decisions are made based on dev observations, instincts, statistical analysis, extensive development and gaming experience, and an
consistent, overall view of the game
. (Keep in mind that few of us players truly view the game as a whole. As the OP said, we frequently want buffs for us, and nerfs for others.)

I believe that engaging with our players is good, and valuable, and highly desirable. I love it when we can post information about skill changes, as in the 12/11 update notes -- that's a great thing. I am delighted when a dev can get into a discussion on the forums, but I also know that devs read the forums more often than they post, and they keep up on player thoughts on a daily basis. But they need to develop, improve, hone, and expand the game, and I believe they post when they are able. But in the end, I believe they should spend the majority of their time and focus
making the game
and not
talking about making the game.
To do otherwise -- to get involved in the constant back-and-forth of explanation, question, justification, and counter-demand that the comment above appears to demand -- seems destined to lead to a complete lack of forward progress.

While i dont think devs need to explain every change, i do believe some changes need to be explained: Like when you change a class so much that its no longer does what its class description say its supposed to be. Ele is a perfect example of such a change that had no communication about it. If you had done even a minor explanation like you did with the recent chrono changes(thank you, even if people are pissed off about them), it could have at least helped ease off on some of the..rage. While we appreciate the effort you put in making the thread to voice our concerns, there was little to no follow up on the thread, and little to none of the changes taken into consideration(that we can see so far, whats coming down the rode we just dont know but it still feels like a echo chamber). If the vision of what an important thing like class identity is changed it needs to be communicated IMO.

Im sure if the devs decided that raids where to be made super easy(nerfs to damage, HP or both on bosses), im sure raiders would love an explanation as to why the change was made.

The WvW upcoming changes are a perfect example of what i consider good communication, even if alot of people are upset/critical of it. Other than that though, anet is doing a better job of communicating the reason for important changes, which is a good thing, please continue.

EDIT I felt it was important to say, im not angry, and i hope i didnt come across as such, just offering an opinion on what i would like to see when it comes to what i consider to be important information.

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@spartan.9421 said:

@"Jski.6180" said:

When there are big changes yes they need to justify is small things not so much. If you remove an effect from a class comply there got to be some thinking and reason for this. I am not trying to be mean about this but when example (its always going to be ele or scraper with me sry) Tempest Defense loses is Shocking Aura and becomes a stronger stun cc effect Stormsoul 33% longer stuns the dev. who did this needs to say why a def effect on ele was to much and why better stuns will help the class out. I have a scraper effect that was given a major changes as well but your not the right person to bring these to and i do not think to you to explain these things.

On the forms there only engagement from you and we all love you to death for it and that seems to be your main job. Are you able to talk for the other devs? Engagement needs to go both ways the player base like to know if there points of views are on the way devs want this game to move, are they silly points of views, are they crazy? Its not about every small thing its about major over all changes and what the point of the class is because right now only a few classes seem to have a real point.

I disagree with that. The devs do not
have
to justify a balance patch. And if it is a big change, they do tell us about it.

Gaile isn't the only dev that engages with people on the forums. There are a bunch of them that do (their names escape me, but i know Ben is one of them, he posts in the PVP sub forums fairly often.)

And the devs all have a life too. They should not spend every waking hour catering to the player base, nor should they be expected to respond to every forum post. They are allowed to enjoy their time in the game, same as the rest of us.

No, their views are not "silly" just because people disagree with the changes. And no, they are not "crazy" as you so elegantly put it.And every class has a point, if you don't like some of the changes to your favorite class, play a new one. Perhaps try a different build? It's not the end of the world, bud.

It just seems a lack of direction is what players are getting from these patch we need mission statements for the classes to be updated core / eleit spec. as they do not seem to fit any more.

I get that but there are places on the forms dev. do not go and if your points of views are only allowed in though places you get the feeling that your talking into a void.

Devs have a life as well as players they do not want to spend all day on these forms they want to play the game but when it feels like your legs keep getting cut out from under you for playing the wrong class you have to say something or do something. To get nothing back feels wrong.

The players base who suggest something is what i am talking about and i was just going on about the different points of views not every player has good ideal i know i have my fair share of bad ideals. But i need to be told on some level they are not the best or at least the general way i am thinking is a dead end.

Classes have points but these points have been lost in time and become very watered down. There clear rolls for the over used classes but the rolls for the underused classes seem as if there no real aim for balancing. You know though places where devs do not seem to go these are the classes i am talking about i am out right fearful of even call its name on any forms. This is the environment we are in.

You cant sadly build you way out of things i tried for years i use to have well over 5 builds a day i was kind of know for it on FA. I not made a new build like this for months now and it feels like i cant build my way out of over nerfs to effects. Ele cant build in such a way to deal with sustane blocks and boons over all. I wish i could and i wish other classes would stop getting free passes on effects because they are simply build into though class and do not have to build for it to start with. (I am getting super off topic sry there just no talk about such things any more any where that viable).

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@Jski.6180 said:

This last update has comply destroy winters day for a lot of ppl. A time of joy has turn to a time of great pains and parting of ways. This is on anet please stop putting it on the ppl who are victimizes of these updates.okay. HOLD UP a moment. Lemme stop you right here. First of all, Wintersday IS NOT RUINED. for ANYONE. It is a time for joy and celebration and, from what i have seen over the past few days alone people in general actually enjoy the festivities. Okay, so maybe you might not have use for winter's presence. or perhaps you migfht not have use for Giver's gear. as a Thief Main? neither do i, but i enjoy going after it because IT'S FUN. it's rewarding because it's a notch on my belt and something to scratch off on a long long list of things that, even after 6 years, I still wanna do. But to insinuate that Wintersday is ruined because of one thing you cannot do is missing the point of Wintersday Itself. Not gonna Lie, reading that statement reminds me of a kid getting a boatload of gifts under the tree but getting dissapointed when he doesn't get the one he wanted the most.@Jski.6180 said:

There is a lack of real comment for the dev. them self who made each chose
they need to come out and say why they did the chose they made and the chose they did not make.
<--emphasis added.

When there are big changes yes they need to justify is small things not so much. If you remove an effect from a class comply there got to be some thinking and reason for this. I am not trying to be mean about this but when example (its always going to be ele or scraper with me sry) Tempest Defense loses is Shocking Aura and becomes a stronger stun cc effect Stormsoul 33% longer stuns the dev. who did this needs to say why a def effect on ele was to much and why better stuns will help the class out. I have a scraper effect that was given a major changes as well but your not the right person to bring these to and i do not think to you to explain these things.

so, if What I am reading is correct, you are asking for the development team to justify every major change... such as explaining why they are looking at a class and seeing what is happening in game and reacting to it? TBH, when i read these last patch updates, that is EXACTLY what the team did, specifically at the top of every class change list. Now trust me, ele and scrapper are NOT the only ones that get buffed and nerfed or however you refer the changes as. and when the changes happen? they happen for a good reason, which is explained. A good rule of thumb also, is to always have a backup plan in case something like what happened to your class happens again. perhaps attempting to play other roles of that class, or even trying a different class to play? tons of options.

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also... For the record, the original Post i wrote was to give some insight... to give an opinion on what has been happening and is happening (according to the responses) in the game i love. It was never intended to flame anyone, nor was it designed as a lightning rod for anyone to get upset or angry... Although I understand and empathize with you if you feel that way. I feel that way. but the reason why I am upset and angry(slightly) is how quickly individuals who claim to love this game as much as I do quickly turn their backs on it because of a simple balance update... something that takes place quite often. When these same individuals then, after turning their backs on the game, begin to bring down anyone else that loves the game or is just starting to play it... it raises my ire and the ire of the rest of the community and that, my friends, _has to stop.___

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@blackheartgary.8605 said:

This last update has comply destroy winters day for a lot of ppl. A time of joy has turn to a time of great pains and parting of ways. This is on anet please stop putting it on the ppl who are victimizes of these updates.okay. HOLD UP a moment. Lemme stop you right here. First of all, Wintersday IS NOT RUINED. for ANYONE. It is a time for joy and celebration and, from what i have seen over the past few days alone people in general actually enjoy the festivities. Okay, so maybe you might not have use for winter's presence. or perhaps you migfht not have use for Giver's gear. as a Thief Main? neither do i, but i enjoy going after it because IT'S FUN. it's rewarding because it's a notch on my belt and something to scratch off on a long long list of things that, even after 6 years, I still wanna do. But to insinuate that Wintersday is ruined because of one thing you cannot do is missing the point of Wintersday Itself. Not gonna Lie, reading that statement reminds me of a kid getting a boatload of gifts under the tree but getting dissapointed when he doesn't get the one he wanted the most.@Jski.6180 said:

There is a lack of real comment for the dev. them self who made each chose
they need to come out and say why they did the chose they made and the chose they did not make.
<--emphasis added.

When there are big changes yes they need to justify is small things not so much. If you remove an effect from a class comply there got to be some thinking and reason for this. I am not trying to be mean about this but when example (its always going to be ele or scraper with me sry) Tempest Defense loses is Shocking Aura and becomes a stronger stun cc effect Stormsoul 33% longer stuns the dev. who did this needs to say why a def effect on ele was to much and why better stuns will help the class out. I have a scraper effect that was given a major changes as well but your not the right person to bring these to and i do not think to you to explain these things.

so, if What I am reading is correct, you are asking for the development team to justify every major change... such as explaining why they are looking at a class and seeing what is happening in game and reacting to it? TBH, when i read these last patch updates, that is EXACTLY what the team did, specifically at the top of every class change list. Now trust me, ele and scrapper are NOT the only ones that get buffed and nerfed or however you refer the changes as. and when the changes happen? they happen for a good reason, which is explained. A good rule of thumb also, is to always have a backup plan in case something like what happened to your class happens again. perhaps attempting to play other roles of that class, or even trying a different class to play? tons of options.

If your ok with the way things are going and you know no one who are not happy about such things then ya wintersday should be good. If something bad happens to any one is tends to put a damper on holy days of any type.

That the thing there a lack of aim for the classes there needs to be a real end of the year or start of the year mission statement on the core classes and there elite spec. At best there where no buffs for these 2 classes they only seemed like buffed (i like to keep this talk to the each class forms but they are not always as viable as the main forms).

I looked it over but there nothing about comply losing an effect because of counter hard cc core ele has no def on hard cc at all now when they are hit with a hard cc. The lost of boon effects (super speed as well) pushed away from being able to support all together. As well as the boon lock class talk seems to only benefit the "liked" classes in gw2 where the lesser boons locked classes are only going to be left out in the cold.

It well with in the realm of asking why are you doing this to the devs. and to have some frustration with the devs not getting a good replay. Please stop making every comment of "that may not be the best thing for the game" into something just pure negatively.

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It well with in the realm of asking why are you doing this to the devs. and to have some frustration with the devs not getting a good replay. Please stop making every comment of "that may not be the best thing for the game" into something just pure negatively.You are correct. Asking why a certain thing happened is not in any way shape or form harmful to the game. People do it all the time. but what i keep reading from your posts is that you want an explanation for each and every single change to elementalist and a justification for every change at that. OR... you are asking for a mission statement at the beginning of every year that in your opinion should be set in stone for your class and should never be changed during that year. Mission statements are also not a bad idea. I'll give you that. Heck @Jski.6180 I think the real reason you are upset is that you do not feel like you are ever going to be able to play ele ever again because of the changes made... or at the very least, the way you wanna play it. I am sure you are not alone. If every single solitary member of the guild wars 2 community was given the chance to change their class's playstyle to the exact way they wanted to, and they were given some promise that it would never ever ever be changed whatsoever... THAT my friend, would indeed break the actual game. it's impossible logistically to please every single player in the game. what's good for you might not be good for someone else. what's terrible for you might be fantastic for the next person. do not see what has happened to elementalist as a personal attack, and do not see yourself as a VICTIM, as you stated earlier, in a GAME, then claim any response is negativity. it's not. and you are not a victim. and Guild Wars 2 is a Game.Look. we all wanna win. we all wanna be on top. we all want to own park place and boardwalk in monopoly. we all want to be able to one-shot Balthazar, or be able to save the Universe with the single click of a button. that's the spirit of gaming, for crying out loud! but when we lose sight of the original concept of why a game is in fact JUST A GAME, it's time to put that game away for a little bit and step away. like i said earlier... take a step back, breathe... remember why you are playing the game in the first place.I promise you... it is NOT that serious.
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I think some of you are taking this a lot more seriously than you might think you are.

If it comes down to threads like this and endless debate back and forth how light of heart is it really?

It is a game just a game like many people here are saying.... For the players.

I think people sometimes lose sight of the fact that this is not a game for the developer (at least while they are on the clock) it is their lively hood.

Interaction with the community is good. It is one thing that many MMO style games in the past before this lack pretty badly. Sometimes it seems like arrogance getting in the way and other times it is a vitriolic community burning to the ground anyone who dares speak their own opinion even the people developing the game.

There is only one way about this.

If you are not being paid to develop this game you get to demand nothing. This is not your creative lively hood. This is NOT your art. You can disagree with the artist all day long but in the end you did not apply the brush to canvas you did not suffer for or bleed for or chop of parts of you for this, they did.

There needs to be a healthy separation between customers and providers. I work in a hospital. It is a far easier line to draw there but even then this same topic comes up a lot. How much is to much? We answer it with a simple equation that does not exactly apply here but I think could be in some fashion.

All of us no matter what we do here, do it for the patients no matter what. No matter how badly they act or how families treat us or how other staff treat us including my own uplines I am there for the patients and the patients alone. I suffer for them if I have to in order to ease their burden.

Give the staff a little slack for god sake. this is not all fun and games for them like it on our side as the players. if you take this so seriously you feel anger over it or see somehow you "investment" of time here as a tangible asset that can be invested in the long run for positive dividends you are fooling yourself. All you are entitled to here is the chance to play and be entertained if you can. If not I would question strongly why you log in and your basic level of sanity in your approach to the world.

Treat people like humans and with some respect even if they don't deserve it because you to will be laying in that proverbial hospital bed one day praying you get a nice nurse and a caring doctor to aid your journey.

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@"jbrother.1340" said:I think some of you are taking this a lot more seriously than you might think you are.

If it comes down to threads like this and endless debate back and forth how light of heart is it really?

It is a game just a game like many people here are saying.... For the players.

I think people sometimes lose sight of the fact that this is not a game for the developer (at least while they are on the clock) it is their lively hood.

Interaction with the community is good. It is one thing that many MMO style games in the past before this lack pretty badly. Sometimes it seems like arrogance getting in the way and other times it is a vitriolic community burning to the ground anyone who dares speak their own opinion even the people developing the game.

There is only one way about this.

If you are not being paid to develop this game you get to demand nothing. This is not your creative lively hood. This is NOT your art. You can disagree with the artist all day long but in the end you did not apply the brush to canvas you did not suffer for or bleed for or chop of parts of you for this, they did.

There needs to be a healthy separation between customers and providers. I work in a hospital. It is a far easier line to draw there but even then this same topic comes up a lot. How much is to much? We answer it with a simple equation that does not exactly apply here but I think could be in some fashion.

All of us no matter what we do here, do it for the patients no matter what. No matter how badly they act or how families treat us or how other staff treat us including my own uplines I am there for the patients and the patients alone. I suffer for them if I have to in order to ease their burden.

Give the staff a little slack for god sake. this is not all fun and games for them like it on our side as the players. if you take this so seriously you feel anger over it or see somehow you "investment" of time here as a tangible asset that can be invested in the long run for positive dividends you are fooling yourself. All you are entitled to here is the chance to play and be entertained if you can. If not I would question strongly why you log in and your basic level of sanity in your approach to the world.

Treat people like humans and with some respect even if they don't deserve it because you to will be laying in that proverbial hospital bed one day praying you get a nice nurse and a caring doctor to aid your journey.

I agree with most of your message. However, I think you're making a big assumption that value is only based on money. I think for many the game is worth more to them than what they paid for it. Just ask yourself how much someone would have to pay you to never play gw2 again. Should they take the game this seriously? Probably not, however, that is for the individual to decide. Let's say there are two people. One is a individual who quite his job, cut his hours, or didn't take overtime just so he could stream or play gw2, not for the money, but simply because he enjoyed it. The other is a dev who hates his job, doesn't enjoy the game, and is on the verge of quitting because amazon pays more. You're telling me the dev has more value in the game just because they get paid more? All it can take is one comment and the dev will be out of here to amazon. Meanwhile, you could offer the steamer $20,000 to quite gw2 and they would never take it. You think he is crazy for not taking the 20 grand since he only paid minimal money for it in the fist place? Would he be crazy not to take $1000? $100? $35 since the expansion only costs $30 now? Who cares? Everyone has a different level of enjoyment and value from this game and thats not crazy, it's normal.

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@Gaile Gray.6029 said:

@"Jski.6180" said:

There is a lack of real comment for the dev. them self who made each chose
they need to come out and say why they did the chose they made and the chose they did not make.
<--emphasis added.

This comment, quite honestly, took my breath away. Do you truly believe that developers should justify each decision? Should explain in detail why they did [one thing] and why they did not do [potentially countless alternatives]? Do you feel it would be productive to spend the many, many hours that would be required to discuss each of the changes they made? I am leery of such a process, especially when I know decisions are made based on dev observations, instincts, statistical analysis, extensive development and gaming experience, and an
consistent, overall view of the game
. (Keep in mind that few of us players truly view the game as a whole. As the OP said, we frequently want buffs for us, and nerfs for others.)

Well, i think you're kind of exaggerating the point. I've pointed this out to you. Compared to some of your competitors your patch notes and their reasoning can be completely opaque. This causes not only players to second guess your work (i mean i, personally, completely lost faith in the PvP and balance teams by this point), but also causes feedback to need to be filtered. And, lets face it, there's enough of an echo chamber and a lot of the more critical feedback being disregarded or completely censored as "attacking devs" that even genuine feedback can be skewed by players misnterpreting the dev's intentions.Sure there's been some improvement this year, but it's far from ideal.I mean, players have been
very
critic of mount prices, and yet what we got was MO pretty much telling us "we know better than you". And, well, look at other companies that came with the same attitude. Battlefield V has been a stellar success on the tails of this kind of attitude.The debate eventually ended up on how profitable the skins were at 2000 and whether or not they'd be more profitable if you could sell more but at a lower cost.This debate could be ended with a simple info-graphic from Arena Net with revenue of deluxe skins vs the mount packs, for example, or even the projections they've made. Not just a "we know better".And this is just an example... The people attacking Raids could be quelled with a graphic showing how many players actually raid or don't, and how many participate in other modes that aren't as criticized. The recent discussion on whether most people are free to play or have expansions, again could have been stilled with some info.Whether you like it or not, as long-time costumers we are stakeholders for Arena Net, and being left in the dark can be dissuasive for a continued engagement.

I believe that engaging with our players is good, and valuable, and highly desirable. I love it when we can post information about skill changes, as in the 12/11 update notes -- that's a great thing. I am delighted when a dev can get into a discussion on the forums, but I also know that devs read the forums more often than they post, and they keep up on player thoughts on a daily basis. But they need to develop, improve, hone, and expand the game, and I believe they post when they are able. But in the end, I believe they should spend the majority of their time and focus
making the game
and not
talking about making the game.
Well, the talking part would be your job, and Rubi's, no? I mean that's kind of your job description, is it not? I'm not trying to be rude. But these are points that the community managers and communications teams should be working on. If you really think about it, there's a lot of critics that boil down to a very opaque development. Sure, it's not like you have to do a full report, and spoil every change. But something like the long-term goals that were mentioned on the last patch about wanting to make it so that each class has it's own "support signature" and that all buffs don't get concentrated in a couple of them. That's a great goal to have. But expanding a bit more could be beneficial. I mean, it's not like you don't have thousands of players that sometimes have a more in-depth knowledge and mental image of how stuff interacts during actual game play than devs. That kind of feedback in anticipation can help steer the development work way more efficiently than just mucking about doing random changes out of nowhere without improving the game, or worse changing things in a way that makes one class so overpowering for so long that people will rage when you finally start fixing it. Best examples of this are the recent tempest changes, and more importantly the changes to elementalist and meteor shower and lava font.The class was left in a overpowering state for so long that not only were players ingrained in that, but even development was done around that. And when it finally was changed the class was significantly diminished, to the point of being considered unplayable.You might be professionals. But that doesn't make you all knowing or perfect.

To do otherwise -- to get involved in the constant back-and-forth of explanation, question, justification, and counter-demand that the comment above appears to demand -- seems destined to lead to a complete lack of forward progress.Only if done wrong. I've seen games, with 1/10th of your team's size that have improved leaps and bounds because of player feedback and suggestions. And this was done because there was a honest back and forth between devs and players that allowed the game to improve tremendously.

I'll be candid with you. Arena Net is a company that i respect and Guild Wars 2 is still probably the best MMORPG i've ever played. But at times there seems to be some institutionalized contempt towards the players that make you possible. Your answer, is a smaller measure of that, sadly.The way you describe the interaction "demanded" by the player almost implies that players are unable to make any positive contribution to the game, that were nothing but a nuisance to be appeased when possible.

Want to learn from those doing good? Look at Riot Games. They make a hell of a lot more money than you, even being totally free to play, and started smaller than Arena Net, but they can still take time to make detailed descriptions of what they intend, and even talk about stuff as trivial as the choices that were scrapped at last minute back in the betas.Look at Digital Extremes, again smaller team, free game, don't know about the money, don't really care, but they engage with us, they let us know what they plan, how, why, and ahead of time, and they change things from player feedback even before it's released. And look, top 10 most played on Steam for years.

So, not wanting to be rude, lets agree to disagree on this.

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@blackheartgary.8605 said:

@"Jski.6180" said:

It well with in the realm of asking why are you doing this to the devs. and to have some frustration with the devs not getting a good replay. Please stop making every comment of "that may not be the best thing for the game" into something just pure negatively.You are correct. Asking why a certain thing happened is not in any way shape or form harmful to the game. People do it all the time. but what i keep reading from your posts is that you want an explanation for each and every single change to elementalist and a justification for every change at that. OR... you are asking for a mission statement at the beginning of every year that in your opinion should be set in stone for your class and should never be changed during that year. Mission statements are also not a bad idea. I'll give you that. Heck @"Jski.6180" I think the real reason you are upset is that you do not feel like you are ever going to be able to play ele ever again because of the changes made... or at the very least, the way you wanna play it. I am sure you are not alone. If every single solitary member of the guild wars 2 community was given the chance to change their class's playstyle to the exact way they wanted to, and they were given some promise that it would never ever ever be changed whatsoever... THAT my friend, would indeed break the actual game. it's impossible logistically to please every single player in the game. what's good for you might not be good for someone else. what's terrible for you might be fantastic for the next person. do not see what has happened to elementalist as a personal attack, and do not see yourself as a VICTIM, as you stated earlier, in a GAME, then claim any response is negativity. it's not. and you are not a victim. and Guild Wars 2 is a Game.Look. we all wanna win. we all wanna be on top. we all want to own park place and boardwalk in monopoly. we all want to be able to one-shot Balthazar, or be able to save the Universe with the single click of a button. that's the spirit of gaming, for crying out loud! but when we lose sight of the original concept of why a game is in fact JUST A GAME, it's time to put that game away for a little bit and step away. like i said earlier... take a step back, breathe... remember why you are playing the game in the first place.I promise you... it is NOT that serious.

Ok, for a moment now lets just drop the "it's just a game". Yada, yada, ya everyone knows. Even you wouldn't be posting if you didn't care about it and Jski complaining doesn't just have to do with people taking the game to seriously. He/She seriously has a point. I'm not sure about PvE now but in PvP ele has been on the low part of the totem pole since about PoF release. It's been over a year since PoF release. I'm not talking about the game being balanced, but how is it possible that ele has not been part of the meta since over a year of balance changes? Even if you don't take the game seriously, you have to question this. It is NOT just about this months balance changes. It is about the insanity of waiting over a year for different results but getting the same old same old. Not everyone likes playing a large variety of classes, so don't be telling Jski that he/she should have been prepared. For many, their enjoyment in this game is based on balance. I realize your wintersday isn't ruined, but maybe his/hers is? Maybe Jski literally however hard she/he tries can't physically have fun playing the game right now with the current changes. That doesn't necessarily mean she/he is taking the game to seriously as much as it simply means the game is no longer fun for him/her. Yes, it's possible to both not take the game seriously and no longer have fun. Maybe the best advice to give isn't "to not take the game so seriously" as much as wait till next year, come back to see if the game changed to the point of being fun for you, and then if it's not fun leave again. I don't agree with displaying a bad scene to new payers. However, I also don't necessarily think admiration should automatically be assumed instead of earned. Yes, people should take this game less seriously. However, that doesn't mean people literally don't quit the game because balance changes have caused them to loose their enthusiasm for the game. I never post anything negative because I want players to leave. I post because I want this game to head in a positive direction. Even though at many times it doesn't seem so, both the players and the devs are on the same team and both of them need to realize this.

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