Systems Team: Why is 15k Coalescence of Ruin fine, but 10k Full Counter needs 66% damage nerf? — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Systems Team: Why is 15k Coalescence of Ruin fine, but 10k Full Counter needs 66% damage nerf?

Just wondering? Both are heavy classes. Revenant gets to dish out MASSIVE 10-15k crits at HUGE 1200 range. It's huge damage, it's on a tiny cooldown, you can use it from the safety of big range.

And YET, Full Counter, which could hit for 10-12k ONLY if you stacked EVERY kind of damage-giving trait/food/gear imaginable, has to be used from melee range, inside of an enemy blob, at point blank range, and has triple the cooldown?

I want Irenio or someone to tell me the logic, to tell me why one is fine and the other is too much, why it is SO bad it had to completely ruin any fun you can have on Warrior? Why does the systems team hate Warrior?

<1

Comments

  • SkyShroud.2865SkyShroud.2865 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Because it is nerfed for 1v1, not zerg vs zerg.

    Founder & Leader of Equinox Solstice [TIME], a Singapore-Based International PvX Guild
    Henge of Denravi Server
    www.gw2time.com

    --

    Explanations of WvW Structures & Populations Issues

  • Caedmon.6798Caedmon.6798 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 16, 2018

    @SkyShroud.2865 said:
    Because it is nerfed for 1v1, not zerg vs zerg.

    Makes sense in this Team mode game to nerf something from an 1on1 perspective.Besides 1on1 its far easier to not proc it as when you have a teamfight anyways.They dont balance around 1on1.

    @ProverbsofHell.2307,Because people exaggerate.Saw some guy saying the nerf was needed cus he kept being hit by 15k+ Counters...Righto.Maybe on the first of pof.

  • SkyShroud.2865SkyShroud.2865 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 16, 2018

    @Caedmon.6798 said:

    @SkyShroud.2865 said:
    Because it is nerfed for 1v1, not zerg vs zerg.

    Makes sense in this Team mode game to nerf something from an 1on1 perspective.Besides 1on1 its far easier to not proc it as when you have a teamfight anyways.They dont balance around 1on1.

    @ProverbsofHell.2307,Because people exaggerate.Saw some guy saying the nerf was needed cus he kept being hit by 15k+ Counters...Righto.Maybe on the first of pof.

    Doesn't matter is easier or not easier, the fact that it can be proc means that it can work therefore base on anet history of nerfing, they will nerf it if deem overpowering in that situation. In this case, full counter block damage and hit it back hard plus cc. COR doesn't block damage, it hits hard only when you are far. Does COR sounds like a 1v1 skill to you?

    Lastly, balance is mostly base on PvP size aka fights where people have more controls and any people with a bit of common sense will know that pvp balance doesn't work with large fights.

    Founder & Leader of Equinox Solstice [TIME], a Singapore-Based International PvX Guild
    Henge of Denravi Server
    www.gw2time.com

    --

    Explanations of WvW Structures & Populations Issues

  • @Turkeyspit.3965 said:
    Well if the OP really wanted to know, all they have to do is read both abilities to see the differences, but likely this just another "I got killed by 'x', off to the forums!"

    But in good faith, I'll answer with the most obvious differences:

    -CoR doesn't crit for 15K in melee range, so the Mesmer/Holo/Thief/SB/Guard in the Revs face would eat about 8k. Sucks to be a Ranger/Necro/Ele who tries to range the Rev.
    -CoR does damage to 5 targets while FC does damage to 5 targets + interrupts / dazes them + provides stab.

    And the most obvious:
    -CoR crits for 15K at max range as the OP said (though only against someone below 50% health), while Full Counter ABSORBS that 15K crit...or that 18K crit from the Soulbeast, or whatever. 100% damage immunity paired with a (nerfed) attack that hits 5 targets isn't something to dismiss out of hand.

    Is the damage nerf to FC too much? No idea.
    Is the damage of CoR too high? No idea.
    You'll find plenty of people arguing both sides, replete with feelings, anecdotal evidence made up statistics.

    But CoR vs FC is very much Apples vs. Oranges.

    Right, CoR doesn't crit for 15k in melee range. It hits for 15k from the safety of 1200 range, even better!

    By the way, I didn't come here kitten after eating a 15k CoR (although there have been times when I have eaten a 15k CoR), I'm kitten because my class got euthanised for no reason, even though superior options exist.

    By the way, Full Counter doesn't provide stab. IF you trait it, it provides a mere 2 seconds of resistance. Also... in WvW, a daze is nothing. Literally a fart in a jacuzzi. I would be totally happy if the daze was removed, and the damage was restored to its original, because some pathetic CC is nothing in WvW (AKA Stabland) except a waste.

  • I think it is like comparing apple and oranges here.
    I mean I could just be a legit question by saying:
    Why did we get a full counter dmg nerf, when we at the same time lose extra burst dmg by getting this, and is depending on melee attacks to block.

    And the answer might be because it is too punishing a mechanism, hench why the removed some of the “auto”-saving traits.
    It shall be rewarding to attack, but even more to time attacks.
    And not too punishing to meet a Spellbreaker who full counter and block :)

  • @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:
    There's never going to be an answer for "why this skill on Profession A" versus "that skill on Profession B." If the balancing team is doing their job, then they are looking at the overall impact of the entire profession, not comparing individual skills or traits.

    This doesn't mean that FC's change is good or that CoR's lack of change is good; it just means that I think it's unhelpful to compare them 1:1, out of context.

    But the very NATURE of balancing is to compare things. I mean they're both heavy classes, except Warrior is restricted to melee. Warrior is NOT a support profession like Guardian. So I don't think it is unreasonable to compare them, to compare the upper limits of damage among heavy classes.

    Some people are saying that Full Counter is fine currently hitting for 4k Full Zerk, while CoR does 15k Full Zerk. They say its because Full Counter lets you avoid damage.

    HOWEVER. This completely ignores that CoR is 1200 range, which allows you to avoid the damage in the first place. Full Counter lets you avoid damage, but OF COURSE it does, because to be in melee range is to DIE.

  • ProverbsofHell.2307ProverbsofHell.2307 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 17, 2018

    @Ansau.7326 said:
    LOL

    • Full Counter is unblockable, CoR no. - It's fine for Full Counter to be unblockable, because it is a class mechanic, so having this over CoR is fine
    • Full Counter is a radial AoE, CoR needs aiming as its area of effect is quite narrow. - The aiming doesn't require any more skill than going into melee tbh, the amount of skill is questionable
    • Full Counter absorbs an attack, CoR no. - Again, class mechanic
    • Full Counter dazes/interrupts, CoR no. - Fine, take away the daze and interrupt
    • Full Counter grants stability, CoR no. - 1 whole stack for 2s!
    • Full Counter can be traited to apply condis, copy yours and grant boons, CoR no. - "Apply condis, copy yours"? No, if traited, it copies 3 conditions onto the enemy, which do 0 dmg since you're power spellbreaker (hopefully)
    • CoR is bugged with uneven terrain, Full Counter no. - Deal with it, I deal with warrior leaps/closers, hammer is bugged on warrior too
    • CoR has a limit of 1 hit every 0.5s, Full Counter not. - Ok

    Full Counter is a cheesy skill packed with too many mechanics carrying Spellbreakers in sPvP and small scale fights in WvW. Even after the damage nerf, which was absolutely necessary, the skill still does too much for the little effort it requires.

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    Probably because the comparison isn't even relevant. Call me crazy but it doesn't appear to make sense to balance one skill off another from a different class.

    It doesnt, though both full counter and the hammer is OP in WvW. Well was. They are very different though - hammer is stupid OP when fully buffed in a zerg scenario, but people dont run it solo/smallscale. Full counter was the opposite. I've seen warriors literally build only around doing full counter and tanking when on cd. It also did alot of things at once instead of just damage.

  • We need 15k CoR‘s.
    How else are we supposed to kill all these scourges?

  • Blocki.4931Blocki.4931 Member ✭✭✭✭

    They are different skills for different situations. Hammer is literally unusable outside of long range cheese or in zergs from what I've seen, with the auto attack being super slow and a dumb projectile etc. Can't really compare the two.

    Logging out forever.

  • Turkeyspit.3965Turkeyspit.3965 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ProverbsofHell.2307 said:
    By the way, I didn't come here kitten after eating a 15k CoR (although there have been times when I have eaten a 15k CoR), I'm kitten because my class got euthanised for >no reason, even though superior options exist.

    Exactly. That is the problem here. You actually aren't interested in the answer to your question. This thread is just you ranting because of something you perceive as unfair.

    I've answered your question already, as have others, but answers aren't really what you are looking for.

    At the end of the day, I don't care about what makes you happy or not in this game, and neither does anyone else, including ANET. If you feel the change to FC was unwarranted, then build your case, supply data, and deliver your argument so that the ANET devs have something to look at and chew over. "But mommy, not fair!" is just a waste of everyone's time.

  • @Turkeyspit.3965 said:

    @ProverbsofHell.2307 said:
    By the way, I didn't come here kitten after eating a 15k CoR (although there have been times when I have eaten a 15k CoR), I'm kitten because my class got euthanised for >no reason, even though superior options exist.

    Exactly. That is the problem here. You actually aren't interested in the answer to your question. This thread is just you ranting because of something you perceive as unfair.

    I've answered your question already, as have others, but answers aren't really what you are looking for.

    At the end of the day, I don't care about what makes you happy or not in this game, and neither does anyone else, including ANET. If you feel the change to FC was unwarranted, then build your case, supply data, and deliver your argument so that the ANET devs have something to look at and chew over. "But mommy, not fair!" is just a waste of everyone's time.

    Nice strawman!

    I already built my case, I'm comparing it to the upper limits of damage among heavy classes and how Warrior has 0 damage despite being restricted to melee. Melee is MUCH harder to play as in WvW than range. It's VERY difficult to land some skills at that range in a laggy blobfight. Full Counter was all we had. Now the class is even more bubblebot only.

  • Catchyfx.5768Catchyfx.5768 Member ✭✭✭

    10k is lot for defensive ability.

    WOW.
    -Keanu Reeves

    Jokaurene

  • steki.1478steki.1478 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ProverbsofHell.2307 said:

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:

    @ProverbsofHell.2307 said:
    By the way, I didn't come here kitten after eating a 15k CoR (although there have been times when I have eaten a 15k CoR), I'm kitten because my class got euthanised for >no reason, even though superior options exist.

    Exactly. That is the problem here. You actually aren't interested in the answer to your question. This thread is just you ranting because of something you perceive as unfair.

    I've answered your question already, as have others, but answers aren't really what you are looking for.

    At the end of the day, I don't care about what makes you happy or not in this game, and neither does anyone else, including ANET. If you feel the change to FC was unwarranted, then build your case, supply data, and deliver your argument so that the ANET devs have something to look at and chew over. "But mommy, not fair!" is just a waste of everyone's time.

    Nice strawman!

    I already built my case, I'm comparing it to the upper limits of damage among heavy classes and how Warrior has 0 damage despite being restricted to melee. Melee is MUCH harder to play as in WvW than range. It's VERY difficult to land some skills at that range in a laggy blobfight. Full Counter was all we had. Now the class is even more bubblebot only.

    No it's not when you have 5 gap closers on 6-10 sec cooldown each, 20khp, 4 sec weapon swap and almost 10 seconds of complete damage mitigation. 95% of roamers are using power builds so the fact that endure pain makes you vulnerable to condies is pointless. Let's not forget the fact that it also has pulsing resistance and stab, making it even harder to strip (which is only reliable on the worst roaming class in game).

    Try staying in melee on a non-holo build and see how much damage you can do (blinking/disengaging in and out with cheesy 1-shot builds doesnt count as melee).

    I wouldn't call it an issue for wvw zergs, but the skill radius didnt fit damage output at all, especially not considering that you can proc it on cooldown. It's still quite easy to trigger on any spvp teamfight on point, and it just does way too much for such damage output and radius, especially when traited. If it was just damage on parried attack it could be justified, but not otherwise.

    While nerf was maybe too much, it was definitely needed.

  • @Catchyfx.5768 said:
    10k is lot for defensive ability.

    WOW.
    -Keanu Reeves

    When FULL glass, and taking EVERY offensive trait. It's not just a defensive ability, it's a CLASS MECHANIC with a HUGE tell.

    Even if you felt like it was strong, saying it deserved 66% damage nerf is laughable.

  • @steki.1478 said:

    @ProverbsofHell.2307 said:

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:

    @ProverbsofHell.2307 said:
    By the way, I didn't come here kitten after eating a 15k CoR (although there have been times when I have eaten a 15k CoR), I'm kitten because my class got euthanised for >no reason, even though superior options exist.

    Exactly. That is the problem here. You actually aren't interested in the answer to your question. This thread is just you ranting because of something you perceive as unfair.

    I've answered your question already, as have others, but answers aren't really what you are looking for.

    At the end of the day, I don't care about what makes you happy or not in this game, and neither does anyone else, including ANET. If you feel the change to FC was unwarranted, then build your case, supply data, and deliver your argument so that the ANET devs have something to look at and chew over. "But mommy, not fair!" is just a waste of everyone's time.

    Nice strawman!

    I already built my case, I'm comparing it to the upper limits of damage among heavy classes and how Warrior has 0 damage despite being restricted to melee. Melee is MUCH harder to play as in WvW than range. It's VERY difficult to land some skills at that range in a laggy blobfight. Full Counter was all we had. Now the class is even more bubblebot only.

    No it's not when you have 5 gap closers on 6-10 sec cooldown each, 20khp, 4 sec weapon swap and almost 10 seconds of complete damage mitigation. 95% of roamers are using power builds so the fact that endure pain makes you vulnerable to condies is pointless. Let's not forget the fact that it also has pulsing resistance and stab, making it even harder to strip (which is only reliable on the worst roaming class in game).

    Try staying in melee on a non-holo build and see how much damage you can do (blinking/disengaging in and out with cheesy 1-shot builds doesnt count as melee).

    I wouldn't call it an issue for wvw zergs, but the skill radius didnt fit damage output at all, especially not considering that you can proc it on cooldown. It's still quite easy to trigger on any spvp teamfight on point, and it just does way too much for such damage output and radius, especially when traited. If it was just damage on parried attack it could be justified, but not otherwise.

    While nerf was maybe too much, it was definitely needed.

    Sorry, but you don't know what you're talking about at ALL.

    Warrior has at MOST, 3 gap closers. Savage Leap is a buggy 600 range leap which roots you at the beginning and end, and you usually miss its damage delivery too. Also, mainhand sword is a fairly underplayed weapon, with hardly any warriors going outside of Greatsword/Hammer. The only other real gap closer is Greatsword Rush (lol... slow as hell and clunky), and Bull's Charge (which nobody runs except in 1v1).

    Also, it's a 5 second weapon swap. And yeah, 10 seconds of damage mitigation. Endure Pain takes up one slot, lasts 5s if traited. With a full 60 second cooldown. You can't spam this kitten. Featherfoot has 5s Resistance (NOT pulsing) on a 40 sec cooldown. Defiant Stance is also damage negation for 5s.

    Ok, now take away that 10s of invulnerability time and go play Warrior WvW. Go on try it. Prepare to get rekt. You CAN NOT enter melee range if you're not bulletproof. You got 10 seconds to get in and do your bubble and gtfo.

    Have you ever played a game which made sense where range did more damage than melee?
    Range is EASY MODE. Melee actually requires some skill and positioning/strong spacial awareness.

  • Henrik.7560Henrik.7560 Member ✭✭✭

    Because anet want wvw to be pirate ship game mode and warrior hasn't been nerfed enough clearly

    [eA] Sakura | Kaineng

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 18, 2018

    @ProverbsofHell.2307 said:

    @Ansau.7326 said:
    LOL

    • Full Counter is unblockable, CoR no. - It's fine for Full Counter to be unblockable, because it is a class mechanic, so having this over CoR is fine
    • Full Counter is a radial AoE, CoR needs aiming as its area of effect is quite narrow. - The aiming doesn't require any more skill than going into melee tbh, the amount of skill is questionable
    • Full Counter absorbs an attack, CoR no. - Again, class mechanic
    • Full Counter dazes/interrupts, CoR no. - Fine, take away the daze and interrupt
    • Full Counter grants stability, CoR no. - 1 whole stack for 2s!
    • Full Counter can be traited to apply condis, copy yours and grant boons, CoR no. - "Apply condis, copy yours"? No, if traited, it copies 3 conditions onto the enemy, which do 0 dmg since you're power spellbreaker (hopefully)
    • CoR is bugged with uneven terrain, Full Counter no. - Deal with it, I deal with warrior leaps/closers, hammer is bugged on warrior too
    • CoR has a limit of 1 hit every 0.5s, Full Counter not. - Ok

    Full Counter is a cheesy skill packed with too many mechanics carrying Spellbreakers in sPvP and small scale fights in WvW. Even after the damage nerf, which was absolutely necessary, the skill still does too much for the little effort it requires.

    All I see here is you stating 1 of 3 things:

    • something is a class mechanic and as such should be accepted
    • something needs changing
    • someone should deal with something

    The differences between FC and CoR are there, we're explained extensively. You are just heavily biased.

    You asked a question. That question was answered. It's an apples to oranges comparison.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ProverbsofHell.2307 said:

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:

    @ProverbsofHell.2307 said:
    By the way, I didn't come here kitten after eating a 15k CoR (although there have been times when I have eaten a 15k CoR), I'm kitten because my class got euthanised for >no reason, even though superior options exist.

    Exactly. That is the problem here. You actually aren't interested in the answer to your question. This thread is just you ranting because of something you perceive as unfair.

    I've answered your question already, as have others, but answers aren't really what you are looking for.

    At the end of the day, I don't care about what makes you happy or not in this game, and neither does anyone else, including ANET. If you feel the change to FC was unwarranted, then build your case, supply data, and deliver your argument so that the ANET devs have something to look at and chew over. "But mommy, not fair!" is just a waste of everyone's time.

    Nice strawman!

    I already built my case, I'm comparing it to the upper limits of damage among heavy classes and how Warrior has 0 damage despite being restricted to melee. Melee is MUCH harder to play as in WvW than range. It's VERY difficult to land some skills at that range in a laggy blobfight. Full Counter was all we had. Now the class is even more bubblebot only.

    It is nice, because it's true. The comparison doesn't make sense.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Justine.6351Justine.6351 Member ✭✭✭✭

    As a glass hammer rev, full counter was fine. Even when I did eat it I was not taking more than 8k damage anymore than I produce much over 10k CoR.

    Anet buff me :-(
    Make me good at game!

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ProverbsofHell.2307 said:
    Just wondering? Both are heavy classes. Revenant gets to dish out MASSIVE 10-15k crits at HUGE 1200 range. It's huge damage, it's on a tiny cooldown, you can use it from the safety of big range.

    And YET, Full Counter, which could hit for 10-12k ONLY if you stacked EVERY kind of damage-giving trait/food/gear imaginable, has to be used from melee range, inside of an enemy blob, at point blank range, and has triple the cooldown?

    I want Irenio or someone to tell me the logic, to tell me why one is fine and the other is too much, why it is SO bad it had to completely ruin any fun you can have on Warrior? Why does the systems team hate Warrior?

    I can use this analogy to compare any two skills and would be 100% wrong. One skill is a block while the other a ranged attack. There is no relation between them whatsoever.

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 18, 2018

    @ProverbsofHell.2307 said:
    Also, mainhand sword is a fairly underplayed weapon, with hardly any warriors going outside of Greatsword/Hammer.

    Lolwat? Hammer hasnt been meta for many years. Almost all roamer warriors use the greatsword, shield and something else. Maybe not always the sword, but definetly not the hammer.

    Also, he forgot to mention the 1000hp/s in addition to everything else.

    Even a rev popping the regen on attack is easy to bring down twice compared to trying to punch through the passive hp regen of warriors.

  • @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @ProverbsofHell.2307 said:
    Also, mainhand sword is a fairly underplayed weapon, with hardly any warriors going outside of Greatsword/Hammer.

    Lolwat? Hammer hasnt been meta for many years. Almost all roamer warriors use the greatsword, shield and something else. Maybe not always the sword, but definetly not the hammer.

    Also, he forgot to mention the 1000hp/s in addition to everything else.

    Even a rev popping the regen on attack is easy to bring down twice compared to trying to punch through the passive hp regen of warriors.

    LOLWAT

    Nobody runs GS/Hammer? OK then, not sure if you're NA or something, but here in EU everyone uses hammer. Personally I use Sword/Axe + GS, but that's besides the point.

    I'm not talking about roaming by the way, I'm talking about actual zerg fights.

    Also any Warrior going into a zerg fight using healing signet and not defiant stance is gimping themselves.

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ProverbsofHell.2307 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @ProverbsofHell.2307 said:
    Also, mainhand sword is a fairly underplayed weapon, with hardly any warriors going outside of Greatsword/Hammer.

    Lolwat? Hammer hasnt been meta for many years. Almost all roamer warriors use the greatsword, shield and something else. Maybe not always the sword, but definetly not the hammer.

    Also, he forgot to mention the 1000hp/s in addition to everything else.

    Even a rev popping the regen on attack is easy to bring down twice compared to trying to punch through the passive hp regen of warriors.

    LOLWAT

    Nobody runs GS/Hammer? OK then, not sure if you're NA or something, but here in EU everyone uses hammer. Personally I use Sword/Axe + GS, but that's besides the point.

    I'm not talking about roaming by the way, I'm talking about actual zerg fights.

    Also any Warrior going into a zerg fight using healing signet and not defiant stance is gimping themselves.

    By that argument you just shot down your own argument.

    Fc was stupid OP for solo spellbreakers. And guess whats not OP for solo revs? Hammer. Thats the logic.

    Anet doesnt care for zerg balancing, only pvp.

  • Krypto.2069Krypto.2069 Member ✭✭✭

    I feel bad for anybody that mains a Spellbreaker lately in WvW. :anguished:

    The last two balance patches were imo - "HOLD him still while I KICK HIM IN THE GROIN AGAIN with my RAZOR-TOOTH 6 Inch cleats!" :disappointed:

    I agree that FC needed a little bit of toning down...but WOW... this Spellbreak nerf, again, is quite BRUTAL indeed. (And if these latest nerfs are/were actually justified and needed after a "year", then the original skills were way out of spec to begin with when designed.)

    Moonlight [THRU]

  • Spartacus.3192Spartacus.3192 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 20, 2018

    I no longer use my spellbreaker for the rare occasions i go zerg fighting, Its all Hammer rev, pew pew and watch the bags. But in response to if its OP . Its super strong in zergs but let me tell you, If by some bad luck i die and have to run back to zerg. Guess what i swap to staff because no way am i going to get caught in the open alone while having hammer equipped. It blows for solo roaming.

  • steki.1478steki.1478 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @DeceiverX.8361 said:

    @steki.1478 said:

    @ProverbsofHell.2307 said:

    @Catchyfx.5768 said:
    10k is lot for defensive ability.

    WOW.
    -Keanu Reeves

    When FULL glass, and taking EVERY offensive trait. It's not just a defensive ability, it's a CLASS MECHANIC with a HUGE tell.

    Even if you felt like it was strong, saying it deserved 66% damage nerf is laughable.

    Nothing about warrior is full glass. Literally nothing, especially not spellbreaker.

    "Full Glass" while running Defense and triple stances on A/Shield secondary too lol.

    Don't get me wrong, rev hammer's damage is way overtuned, but pretending FC wasn't broken is delusion.

    True. Rev could either use +2 seconds on CoR or just less damage overall. The 5 might on fury application trait shouldn't even exist considering how easy access to fury it has. It makes all other might traits in game a joke.

  • DeceiverX.8361DeceiverX.8361 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @steki.1478 said:

    @DeceiverX.8361 said:

    @steki.1478 said:

    @ProverbsofHell.2307 said:

    @Catchyfx.5768 said:
    10k is lot for defensive ability.

    WOW.
    -Keanu Reeves

    When FULL glass, and taking EVERY offensive trait. It's not just a defensive ability, it's a CLASS MECHANIC with a HUGE tell.

    Even if you felt like it was strong, saying it deserved 66% damage nerf is laughable.

    Nothing about warrior is full glass. Literally nothing, especially not spellbreaker.

    "Full Glass" while running Defense and triple stances on A/Shield secondary too lol.

    Don't get me wrong, rev hammer's damage is way overtuned, but pretending FC wasn't broken is delusion.

    True. Rev could either use +2 seconds on CoR or just less damage overall. The 5 might on fury application trait shouldn't even exist considering how easy access to fury it has. It makes all other might traits in game a joke.

    The AA's are the worst part about it.

    Rev hammer AA alone regularly hits 10k on glass per hit and 6k+ into tanks. CoR is a side bonus to get through projectile denial.

    You sure that Sniper idea is as good as you thought it was gonna be?
    Because I think my original idea is better.

  • crewthief.8649crewthief.8649 Member ✭✭
    edited January 12, 2019

    That sort of damage from range probably shouldn't be possible, to be completely honest (especially considering CoR hits multiple targets).

  • @Krypto.2069 said:
    I feel bad for anybody that mains a Spellbreaker lately in WvW. :anguished:

    The last two balance patches were imo - "HOLD him still while I KICK HIM IN THE GROIN AGAIN with my RAZOR-TOOTH 6 Inch cleats!" :disappointed:

    I agree that FC needed a little bit of toning down...but WOW... this Spellbreak nerf, again, is quite BRUTAL indeed. (And if these latest nerfs are/were actually justified and needed after a "year", then the original skills were way out of spec to begin with when designed.)

    This is why a PTS would be so beneficial. Of course, that will never happen.

  • @DeceiverX.8361 said:

    @steki.1478 said:

    @ProverbsofHell.2307 said:

    @Catchyfx.5768 said:
    10k is lot for defensive ability.

    WOW.
    -Keanu Reeves

    When FULL glass, and taking EVERY offensive trait. It's not just a defensive ability, it's a CLASS MECHANIC with a HUGE tell.

    Even if you felt like it was strong, saying it deserved 66% damage nerf is laughable.

    Nothing about warrior is full glass. Literally nothing, especially not spellbreaker.

    "Full Glass" while running Defense and triple stances on A/Shield secondary too lol.

    Don't get me wrong, rev hammer's damage is way overtuned, but pretending FC wasn't broken is delusion.

    It was certainly overtuned at PoF launch... then it was nerfed. Increased the CD and dropped the damage to 75% of PvE. Was it still OP? Then, the most current patch dropped it to 25% of PvE damage (a huge damage nerf). Seems overkill, don't you think? Meanwhile, CoR is routinely hitting multiple opponents from 1200 range for 5-digit numbers. Now, can you really draw a comparison between FC and CoR? Probably not, but what you can do is ask, "if FC received that sort of damage nerf (while requiring the player to be within melee range, mind you), is it really right for CoR (given it's numerous advantages) to be pumping out those kind of numbers? Melee DPS should always be higher than ranged DPS because of the inherent risk involved in getting into (and maintaining) melee range. This is why Warrior has the sort of sustain that it does; the vast majority of it's kit requires melee range.

  • DeceiverX.8361DeceiverX.8361 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 12, 2019

    @crewthief.8649 said:

    @DeceiverX.8361 said:

    @steki.1478 said:

    @ProverbsofHell.2307 said:

    @Catchyfx.5768 said:
    10k is lot for defensive ability.

    WOW.
    -Keanu Reeves

    When FULL glass, and taking EVERY offensive trait. It's not just a defensive ability, it's a CLASS MECHANIC with a HUGE tell.

    Even if you felt like it was strong, saying it deserved 66% damage nerf is laughable.

    Nothing about warrior is full glass. Literally nothing, especially not spellbreaker.

    "Full Glass" while running Defense and triple stances on A/Shield secondary too lol.

    Don't get me wrong, rev hammer's damage is way overtuned, but pretending FC wasn't broken is delusion.

    It was certainly overtuned at PoF launch... then it was nerfed. Increased the CD and dropped the damage to 75% of PvE. Was it still OP? Then, the most current patch dropped it to 25% of PvE damage (a huge damage nerf). Seems overkill, don't you think? Meanwhile, CoR is routinely hitting multiple opponents from 1200 range for 5-digit numbers. Now, can you really draw a comparison between FC and CoR? Probably not, but what you can do is ask, "if FC received that sort of damage nerf (while requiring the player to be within melee range, mind you), is it really right for CoR (given it's numerous advantages) to be pumping out those kind of numbers? Melee DPS should always be higher than ranged DPS because of the inherent risk involved in getting into (and maintaining) melee range. This is why Warrior has the sort of sustain that it does; the vast majority of it's kit requires melee range.

    I'm not going to disagree with you because I think CoR is broken.

    Like everything else in the game I've argued about balance - including about the classes I play myself (thief and necro, mainly) just because something else is busted does not justify something you have being busted; the former should just be nerfed.

    FC was absolutely broken. Spellbreaker now feels reasonable to fight, especially when playing a build or class which depends on multi-hit skills as its primary source of damage, because previously it was just stupidly easy for the warrior to guarantee a trigger on FC halfway through your channel.

    CoR is also broken, and rev hammer needs some WvW-specific nerfs alongside soulbeast because they both deal absolutely stupid amounts of ranged damage that can't be reflected/blocked. Even Deadeye was nerfed appropriately.

    You sure that Sniper idea is as good as you thought it was gonna be?
    Because I think my original idea is better.

  • @DeceiverX.8361 said:

    @crewthief.8649 said:

    @DeceiverX.8361 said:

    @steki.1478 said:

    @ProverbsofHell.2307 said:

    @Catchyfx.5768 said:
    10k is lot for defensive ability.

    WOW.
    -Keanu Reeves

    When FULL glass, and taking EVERY offensive trait. It's not just a defensive ability, it's a CLASS MECHANIC with a HUGE tell.

    Even if you felt like it was strong, saying it deserved 66% damage nerf is laughable.

    Nothing about warrior is full glass. Literally nothing, especially not spellbreaker.

    "Full Glass" while running Defense and triple stances on A/Shield secondary too lol.

    Don't get me wrong, rev hammer's damage is way overtuned, but pretending FC wasn't broken is delusion.

    It was certainly overtuned at PoF launch... then it was nerfed. Increased the CD and dropped the damage to 75% of PvE. Was it still OP? Then, the most current patch dropped it to 25% of PvE damage (a huge damage nerf). Seems overkill, don't you think? Meanwhile, CoR is routinely hitting multiple opponents from 1200 range for 5-digit numbers. Now, can you really draw a comparison between FC and CoR? Probably not, but what you can do is ask, "if FC received that sort of damage nerf (while requiring the player to be within melee range, mind you), is it really right for CoR (given it's numerous advantages) to be pumping out those kind of numbers? Melee DPS should always be higher than ranged DPS because of the inherent risk involved in getting into (and maintaining) melee range. This is why Warrior has the sort of sustain that it does; the vast majority of it's kit requires melee range.

    I'm not going to disagree with you because I think CoR is broken.

    Like everything else in the game I've argued about balance - including about the classes I play myself (thief and necro, mainly) just because something else is busted does not justify something you have being busted; the former should just be nerfed.

    FC was absolutely broken. Spellbreaker now feels reasonable to fight, especially when playing a build or class which depends on multi-hit skills as its primary source of damage, because previously it was just stupidly easy for the warrior to guarantee a trigger on FC halfway through your channel.

    CoR is also broken, and rev hammer needs some WvW-specific nerfs alongside soulbeast because they both deal absolutely stupid amounts of ranged damage that can't be reflected/blocked. Even Deadeye was nerfed appropriately.

    It's all Rev hammer skills. I frequently get higher numbers on Phase Smash and Drop The Hammer than I do CoR.

    I think they could stand to see some shaves but I also don't think it should be heavily nerfed either. Zergs are just so absurdly tanky now that without Rev's pumping out the spikes you'd really only have Necros and it would take a year and a half for fights to end. That, and Rev hammer isn't exactly useful in situations outside zergs anyway. It doesn't have a huge selection of weapons so it wouldn't be good to nerf it in to uselessness.

    [HUNT] | Necromancer, Ranger, Warrior, Engineer, Revenant | Kaineng | Diamond Legend
    Times change and people change with'm, some people love to play the victim ... ♫

  • DeceiverX.8361DeceiverX.8361 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Kinda goes back to what I said earlier though - FB and Scourge Sustain and AoE/corrupt power also need heavy nerfing; something being OP doesn't justify an arms race.

    While Drop the Hammer is definitely a major killer, I find it's only effective/frustrating because it has no AoE indicator and is overall fairly hard to see with the huge amount of stuff happening on screen. There's plenty of time to react. CoR is OP mostly just because of its cooldown and how it basically can't be negated, but also for similar reasons as Drop the Hammer in that it lacks visibility, especially with the AoE spam on the frontlines making it hard to see the "wave" coming when it cleaves through.

    Drop the Hammer being given the scourge-style AoE indicator I think the skill would be a lot more balanced just by QoL/visibility improvements. Granted, it'd also be hard to distinguish between scourge AoE's and DtH though...

    You sure that Sniper idea is as good as you thought it was gonna be?
    Because I think my original idea is better.

  • Kain Francois.4328Kain Francois.4328 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 14, 2019

    Others have already explained the reasoning, but I'll say something else.

    Coalescence of Ruin has a long telegraph. Furthermore, you have to be at a max range sweetpot that is very hard to hit. Meanwhile Full Count procs almost immediately as it triggers a counter. You can easily dodge one but not the other.

  • @Kain Francois.4328 said:
    Others have already explained the reasoning, but I'll say something else.

    Coalescence of Ruin has a long telegraph. Furthermore, you have to be at a max range sweetpot that is very hard to hit. Meanwhile Full Count procs almost immediately as it triggers a counter. You can easily dodge one but not the other.

    The telegraph isn't really visible in blob fights, while Full Counter is highly visible. You can dodge both. Also, if Full Counter hits you, literally nothing happens, because it now hits for 0 damage.

  • LucianDK.8615LucianDK.8615 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I dont think you guys realize how many times CoR has been nerfed already.

  • ArthurDent.9538ArthurDent.9538 Member ✭✭✭✭

    It's simple, revenant hammer is the slowest weapon in the game (it litterally has longer average cast times than any other weapon) and therefore it either does big damage per hit to counter balance it hitting much less frequently then the faster weapons, or it has exceptional utility of some form, or it is more or less useless. It is already more or less useless in spvp, end game pve, and small scale wvw since the damage per hit isn't high enough to make up for the slow attack rate for dpsand the defensive utility is poor making hammer revs super easy targets to focus and eliminate.

    Meanwhile full counter has an absurd amount of utility baked into it and is actually quite fast to cast if you time it correctly so it is still strong even with low damage.

  • I am extremely worried that this thread is top of the forum and I sincerely hope ANET does not nerf hammer again. Please don't.

  • Solori.6025Solori.6025 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kain Francois.4328 said:
    I am extremely worried that this thread is top of the forum and I sincerely hope ANET does not nerf hammer again. Please don't.

    I honestly hope Anet never takes balancing suggestions from the community. Ever..

    Tingle my stingleberry

  • crewthief.8649crewthief.8649 Member ✭✭
    edited January 18, 2019

    @Kain Francois.4328 said:
    Others have already explained the reasoning, but I'll say something else.

    Coalescence of Ruin has a long telegraph. Furthermore, you have to be at a max range sweetpot that is very hard to hit. Meanwhile Full Count procs almost immediately as it triggers a counter. You can easily dodge one but not the other.

    One happens at melee range and has seen many nerfs, the other happens at 1200 range. You can dodge Full Counter, FYI. You aren't going to convince anyone that FC beats CoR in terms of raw damage. Now, regarding utility, FC is still a very solid skill, but it is a shadow of its former self. The over-arching theme of this thread is that FC damage was seen as too high (obviously, since its damage has been nerfed by 83% since PoF launch, as well as an increase to the cooldown), yet CoR, a skill that is initiated from 1200 range and does quite a bit more damage than FC ever has, is seen as "fine." Can you appreciate the disparity? I'm not calling for nerfs, but the OP's original point has some merit, to be completely honest.

  • @crewthief.8649 said:

    @Kain Francois.4328 said:
    Others have already explained the reasoning, but I'll say something else.

    Coalescence of Ruin has a long telegraph. Furthermore, you have to be at a max range sweetpot that is very hard to hit. Meanwhile Full Count procs almost immediately as it triggers a counter. You can easily dodge one but not the other.

    One happens at melee range and has seen many nerfs, the other happens at 1200 range. You can dodge Full Counter, FYI. You aren't going to convince anyone that FC beats CoR in terms of raw damage. Now, regarding utility, FC is still a very solid skill, but it is a shadow of its former self. The over-arching theme of this thread is that FC damage was seen as too high (obviously, since its damage has been nerfed by 83% since PoF launch, as well as an increase to the cooldown), yet CoR, a skill that is initiated from 1200 range and does quite a bit more damage than FC ever has, is seen as "fine." Can you appreciate the disparity? I'm not calling for nerfs, but the OP's original point has some merit, to be completely honest.

    Thank you. I don't know why people think it's so absurd to compare the skills.

    Also, note how nowhere in this topic did I say CoR should be nerfed. Actually I think it's perfectly fine to have large damage abilities like this in play. And perhaps Full Counter was slightly dealing too much damage. A 15% reduction in damage, for example, would have been acceptable.

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