Fighting mirage is dropping the keyboard and looking at the UI — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Fighting mirage is dropping the keyboard and looking at the UI

Fortus.6175Fortus.6175 Member ✭✭✭

I had a shower thought, fighting mirage is all about looking at the UI constantly to see if you have confusion and torment. If you dont have an easily accessible condi clear that requires one click (unlike changing attunement/kit/weapon slot and then casting an ability) , or for you to not move (like setting up water field and then using another skill like leap) then the only other thing you can really do is take your hands off your keyboard and constantly be looking at your UI more than the opponent.

I thought GW2 wanted us to move away from UI combat, and overall I dont think it is fun to not do anything as the best possible answer.

Anyways, soulbeasts too strong atm.

<1

Comments

  • Play a mirage. You're gonna get a feel for the condi burst potential and what skills do. Then you won't stare at the ui.

    Actually, pretty much every mesmer complaint thread would be mitigated if people would just play mesmer for 30 hours or so. If you wanna be competitive you have to play and learn in depth about every class... especially the trickster ones.

  • @Fortus.6175 said:
    I'm competitive and in plat so I think as far as game knowledge goes, Im fine.

    This means absolutely nothing at all. Being in Silver, Gold, Platinum, Whatever has more to do with good matching than individual skill, and understanding of a class mechanics.

    Just learn to adapt. Mesmer having too many clones? Smash some AoE. Mesmer is self healing? Burst some interrupts.

    Mesmer still winning against you? Learn to play your class, and stop QQ on the forums.

  • herrmartell.7109herrmartell.7109 Member ✭✭
    edited December 17, 2018

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    @herrmartell.7109 said:
    Mesmer is self healing? Burst some interrupts.

    Doesn't false oasis have something like a .75 second cast time and thus cannot be interrupted if they choose to mirage cloak while using it?

    Not that specifically that is an issue.

    Well, if you get picky, probably any class has a way to counter anything in a very ideal scenario. The truth is, the real deal is always far from your ideal setup.

  • Curunen.8729Curunen.8729 Member ✭✭✭✭

    A related note - turn volume up and listen to sound effects for things like Mirage Cloak.

    There are a number of skills/effects on mesmer that are much easier to hear than to see.

    Never dodge while dazed (EM handicap) | My ears, how are you! | Kourna Jackrabbit for default Springer

  • Solori.6025Solori.6025 Member ✭✭✭✭

    ...Are we not supposed to be looking at the UI anyway?
    Like...is ignoring UI a legitimate thing people do?

    Tingle my stingleberry

  • @Solori.6025 said:
    ...Are we not supposed to be looking at the UI anyway?
    Like...is ignoring UI a legitimate thing people do?

    I sure as hell hope not, but I think the whole point is if you have to shift your focus to the UI bar to micromanage conditions in order to have a shot at the win, without even considering what the mirage is doing on the field, there's probably something wrong.

    Again, not that I think this is the issue. I'd be fine with micromanaging condis if my kittening stuns or interrupts had to make the mirage think instead of "oh, theres a weird effect on me, guess I'll just dodge again"

    [Charr Noises]
    [Plays every class]
    [Balance is not going to happen Play whatever is easiest.]

  • idolin.2831idolin.2831 Member ✭✭✭

    @herrmartell.7109 said:

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    @herrmartell.7109 said:
    Mesmer is self healing? Burst some interrupts.

    Doesn't false oasis have something like a .75 second cast time and thus cannot be interrupted if they choose to mirage cloak while using it?

    Not that specifically that is an issue.

    Well, if you get picky, probably any class has a way to counter anything in a very ideal scenario. The truth is, the real deal is always far from your ideal setup.

    That's not picky at all. Of course all classes have a way to counter that - he's just stating a case in which mirages might have an easier/more accessible way to cover their healing. Also in this case the real deal isn't that far away from the ideal setup - it's just dodging but in the mirage's case it can be done while healing too. I don't see how that's too hard to pull off.

  • @idolin.2831 said:

    @herrmartell.7109 said:

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    @herrmartell.7109 said:
    Mesmer is self healing? Burst some interrupts.

    Doesn't false oasis have something like a .75 second cast time and thus cannot be interrupted if they choose to mirage cloak while using it?

    Not that specifically that is an issue.

    Well, if you get picky, probably any class has a way to counter anything in a very ideal scenario. The truth is, the real deal is always far from your ideal setup.

    That's not picky at all. Of course all classes have a way to counter that - he's just stating a case in which mirages might have an easier/more accessible way to cover their healing. Also in this case the real deal isn't that far away from the ideal setup - it's just dodging but in the mirage's case it can be done while healing too. I don't see how that's too hard to pull off.

    You make it sound as if it was an impossible task, mate. Spoiler alert: it isn't.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fortus.6175 said:
    I had a shower thought, fighting mirage is all about looking at the UI constantly to see if you have confusion and torment. If you dont have an easily accessible condi clear that requires one click (unlike changing attunement/kit/weapon slot and then casting an ability) , or for you to not move (like setting up water field and then using another skill like leap) then the only other thing you can really do is take your hands off your keyboard and constantly be looking at your UI more than the opponent.

    I thought GW2 wanted us to move away from UI combat, and overall I dont think it is fun to not do anything as the best possible answer.

    Anyways, soulbeasts too strong atm.

    So you do not check your UI at least every sec? And why would you need to look at your keyboard.? Your eyes should be only looking at the screen.

    Honestly, a normal healthy person can track multiple enemies on the screen, see and understand what skills they are casting, notice what the allies are doing and keep track of the UI, ALL the time. And also not need to look at the keyboard or mouse.

    This may seem like much, but after you played the game for a while it is almost automatic. If it is not (assuming you are normal healthy person) you just lack experience.

  • idolin.2831idolin.2831 Member ✭✭✭

    @herrmartell.7109 said:

    @idolin.2831 said:

    @herrmartell.7109 said:

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    @herrmartell.7109 said:
    Mesmer is self healing? Burst some interrupts.

    Doesn't false oasis have something like a .75 second cast time and thus cannot be interrupted if they choose to mirage cloak while using it?

    Not that specifically that is an issue.

    Well, if you get picky, probably any class has a way to counter anything in a very ideal scenario. The truth is, the real deal is always far from your ideal setup.

    That's not picky at all. Of course all classes have a way to counter that - he's just stating a case in which mirages might have an easier/more accessible way to cover their healing. Also in this case the real deal isn't that far away from the ideal setup - it's just dodging but in the mirage's case it can be done while healing too. I don't see how that's too hard to pull off.

    You make it sound as if it was an impossible task, mate. Spoiler alert: it isn't.

    Hmm what? My point was it's easy to pull off, it's not impossible at all. In this case the real deal isn't far from the ideal setup, contrast to what you said "the real deal is always far from your ideal setup". What are you referring to?

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @herrmartell.7109 said:

    @Fortus.6175 said:
    I'm competitive and in plat so I think as far as game knowledge goes, Im fine.

    This means absolutely nothing at all. Being in Silver, Gold, Platinum, Whatever has more to do with good matching than individual skill, and understanding of a class mechanics.

    Just learn to adapt. Mesmer having too many clones? Smash some AoE. Mesmer is self healing? Burst some interrupts.

    Mesmer still winning against you? Learn to play your class, and stop QQ on the forums.

    and poison. You forgot to mention the one thing that lowers healing.

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • SPESHAL.9106SPESHAL.9106 Member ✭✭✭

    This has been going on for over a year. They tried ONE midseason nerf...not enough last year. They tried ANOTHER midseason nerf...not enough last year. They tried aTHIRD midseason nerf...not enough. They did a few balance patches since then to add more nerfs...still not enough as Mesmers are far above most other professions in polls of the most OP.

    First, it's pretty embarrassing the state of OP mesmers were at the beginning of the year. I don't know how that left internal testing, but as we've seen with sigil updates and other patch things that require hotfixes, they don't seem to do a lot of internal testing or theorize about obvious problems that get discovered immediately by the playerbase.

    The kid gloves approach they take with Mesmers versus other professions is what's really head-scratching. Look how long it took them to nerf portal when it was the most game changing utility and they gave it to ONLY Mesmers...this is on top of being the profession with the most AI, high mobility, stealth, biggest power burst, biggest condi burst, most scaling defenses, most interrupts, lowest cooldown, shortest cast times, and virtually no resources to manage like every other profession (initiative, life force, adrenaline, energy, etc).

    No matter what they kid glove nerf, there's always a bunch of other builds just as powerful to use with mesmers because they literally are given the opportunity to build for anything. At one time, they were even unkillable bunkers, so this isn't just a one period isolated time of mesmers being broken.

  • @Solori.6025 said:

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    @Solori.6025 said:
    ...Are we not supposed to be looking at the UI anyway?
    Like...is ignoring UI a legitimate thing people do?

    I sure as hell hope not, but I think the whole point is if you have to shift your focus to the UI bar to micromanage conditions in order to have a shot at the win, without even considering what the mirage is doing on the field, there's probably something wrong.

    Again, not that I think this is the issue. I'd be fine with micromanaging condis if my kittening stuns or interrupts had to make the mirage think instead of "oh, theres a weird effect on me, guess I'll just dodge again"

    While I don't and have never liked condi mirage.
    I don't think getting mirage cloak will make a skill that has been interrupted continue as if it wasn't.. I don't think that is how it works.
    And EM is terrible . .
    Also, you are aware that mirage like almost every class has only two dodges right?
    If the mirage is saving those two dodges for only defensive purposes their offense suffers, and vice versa.

    Again not a fan of condimirage, just that with all the nerfs hitting the wrong areas of mirage ( it's why power is now a dead spec) I would love it if people actually addressed the REAL issue and not everything they don't like.

    Fair enough~

    [Charr Noises]
    [Plays every class]
    [Balance is not going to happen Play whatever is easiest.]

  • ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 19, 2018

    @SteepledHat.1345 said:
    Play a mirage. You're gonna get a feel for the condi burst potential and what skills do. Then you won't stare at the ui.

    Actually, pretty much every mesmer complaint thread would be mitigated if people would just play mesmer for 30 hours or so. If you wanna be competitive you have to play and learn in depth about every class... especially the trickster ones.

    this just proves that the Mirage is broken and pvp has design problems. Playing 1 year of neverwinter pvp, I never had to create 1 character from another class just to learn how to counter-attack it. The learning curve must come from the combat itself.

    Tannhauser Engineer(SoS) | Atlantean Sword | Khel the Undead

  • @SPESHAL.9106 said:
    This has been going on for over a year. They tried ONE midseason nerf...not enough last year. They tried ANOTHER midseason nerf...not enough last year. They tried aTHIRD midseason nerf...not enough. They did a few balance patches since then to add more nerfs...still not enough as Mesmers are far above most other professions in polls of the most OP.

    There are polls, like this one started by a mesmer hater, which reflect a tired bias (so many votes, so few actual reasons):

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/63182/most-op-class-dec-14-2018/p1

    and then there is reality: Mesmers are underrepresented in the leaderboards.

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/63990/mesmer-is-trash-and-it-needs-buffs#latest

    But OP, nerf moar, right?

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @SPESHAL.9106 said:
    This has been going on for over a year. They tried ONE midseason nerf...not enough last year. They tried ANOTHER midseason nerf...not enough last year. They tried aTHIRD midseason nerf...not enough. They did a few balance patches since then to add more nerfs...still not enough as Mesmers are far above most other professions in polls of the most OP.

    First, it's pretty embarrassing the state of OP mesmers were at the beginning of the year. I don't know how that left internal testing, but as we've seen with sigil updates and other patch things that require hotfixes, they don't seem to do a lot of internal testing or theorize about obvious problems that get discovered immediately by the playerbase.

    The kid gloves approach they take with Mesmers versus other professions is what's really head-scratching. Look how long it took them to nerf portal when it was the most game changing utility and they gave it to ONLY Mesmers...this is on top of being the profession with the most AI, high mobility, stealth, biggest power burst, biggest condi burst, most scaling defenses, most interrupts, lowest cooldown, shortest cast times, and virtually no resources to manage like every other profession (initiative, life force, adrenaline, energy, etc).

    No matter what they kid glove nerf, there's always a bunch of other builds just as powerful to use with mesmers because they literally are given the opportunity to build for anything. At one time, they were even unkillable bunkers, so this isn't just a one period isolated time of mesmers being broken.

    Whining about portal is like whining about a thief shadow step juking you into getting decapped. Portal should be unnerfed immediately.

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion

  • ReaverKane.7598ReaverKane.7598 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 25, 2018

    @Fortus.6175 said:
    I had a shower thought, fighting mirage is all about looking at the UI constantly to see if you have confusion and torment. If you dont have an easily accessible condi clear that requires one click (unlike changing attunement/kit/weapon slot and then casting an ability) , or for you to not move (like setting up water field and then using another skill like leap) then the only other thing you can really do is take your hands off your keyboard and constantly be looking at your UI more than the opponent.

    I thought GW2 wanted us to move away from UI combat, and overall I dont think it is fun to not do anything as the best possible answer.

    Anyways, soulbeasts too strong atm.

    You're not wrong, there was a regression in the way that confusion works. It was changed years ago to work more of a dot and not exclusively as something that promotes inaction, then they changed it back to that. I mean honestly, at this point i stopped caring, stopped PvPing altogether a year ago, and i stopped expecting the balance team to have a sense of direction.
    They do seem to have found one recently, or at least they claim to have one, but having seen no plans or guidelines published, i can't say they'll be successful.
    There's little to no calls for feedback, and even if they had the best track record in the world, which they don't, not even close, there's somewhat of a lack of humility in not allowing the thousands (millions according to them) of minds that engage the game on a daily basis to help and feedback into their plans.

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @SPESHAL.9106 said:
    This has been going on for over a year. They tried ONE midseason nerf...not enough last year. They tried ANOTHER midseason nerf...not enough last year. They tried aTHIRD midseason nerf...not enough. They did a few balance patches since then to add more nerfs...still not enough as Mesmers are far above most other professions in polls of the most OP.

    First, it's pretty embarrassing the state of OP mesmers were at the beginning of the year. I don't know how that left internal testing, but as we've seen with sigil updates and other patch things that require hotfixes, they don't seem to do a lot of internal testing or theorize about obvious problems that get discovered immediately by the playerbase.

    The kid gloves approach they take with Mesmers versus other professions is what's really head-scratching. Look how long it took them to nerf portal when it was the most game changing utility and they gave it to ONLY Mesmers...this is on top of being the profession with the most AI, high mobility, stealth, biggest power burst, biggest condi burst, most scaling defenses, most interrupts, lowest cooldown, shortest cast times, and virtually no resources to manage like every other profession (initiative, life force, adrenaline, energy, etc).

    No matter what they kid glove nerf, there's always a bunch of other builds just as powerful to use with mesmers because they literally are given the opportunity to build for anything. At one time, they were even unkillable bunkers, so this isn't just a one period isolated time of mesmers being broken.

    Whining about portal is like whining about a thief shadow step juking you into getting decapped. Portal should be unnerfed immediately.

    Honestly, you're 100% right. Portals were always a strong tactical tool, and that was a great play maker or zoning tool. Nerfing that really sends a message that the game is going to be less and less about tactics and team play. I mean the guy that has been in charge of PvP does seem to think that a ranked team queue is less competitive, so no wonder cooperation is being downplayed. (not that portal isn't/wasn't also a great individual tool)

  • @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

    @SPESHAL.9106 said:
    This has been going on for over a year. They tried ONE midseason nerf...not enough last year. They tried ANOTHER midseason nerf...not enough last year. They tried aTHIRD midseason nerf...not enough. They did a few balance patches since then to add more nerfs...still not enough as Mesmers are far above most other professions in polls of the most OP.

    There are polls, like this one started by a mesmer hater, which reflect a tired bias (so many votes, so few actual reasons):

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/63182/most-op-class-dec-14-2018/p1

    and then there is reality: Mesmers are underrepresented in the leaderboards.

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/63990/mesmer-is-trash-and-it-needs-buffs#latest

    But OP, nerf moar, right?

    If there are few mesmer in top50 this does not mean mirage is not OP.
    someone can say the good mesmer have left the game or play less to classify in high positions or have decided to play a season with a different class because bored, you have to see everything and not just top50 or top250, mesmer is OP and anet is not really balancing the class.

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ReaverKane.7598 said:

    @Fortus.6175 said:
    I had a shower thought, fighting mirage is all about looking at the UI constantly to see if you have confusion and torment. If you dont have an easily accessible condi clear that requires one click (unlike changing attunement/kit/weapon slot and then casting an ability) , or for you to not move (like setting up water field and then using another skill like leap) then the only other thing you can really do is take your hands off your keyboard and constantly be looking at your UI more than the opponent.

    I thought GW2 wanted us to move away from UI combat, and overall I dont think it is fun to not do anything as the best possible answer.

    Anyways, soulbeasts too strong atm.

    You're not wrong, there was a regression in the way that confusion works. It was changed years ago to work more of a dot and not exclusively as something that promotes inaction, then they changed it back to that. I mean honestly, at this point i stopped caring, stopped PvPing altogether a year ago, and i stopped expecting the balance team to have a sense of direction.
    They do seem to have found one recently, or at least they claim to have one, but having seen no plans or guidelines published, i can't say they'll be successful.
    There's little to no calls for feedback, and even if they had the best track record in the world, which they don't, not even close, there's somewhat of a lack of humility in not allowing the thousands (millions according to them) of minds that engage the game on a daily basis to help and feedback into their plans.

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @SPESHAL.9106 said:
    This has been going on for over a year. They tried ONE midseason nerf...not enough last year. They tried ANOTHER midseason nerf...not enough last year. They tried aTHIRD midseason nerf...not enough. They did a few balance patches since then to add more nerfs...still not enough as Mesmers are far above most other professions in polls of the most OP.

    First, it's pretty embarrassing the state of OP mesmers were at the beginning of the year. I don't know how that left internal testing, but as we've seen with sigil updates and other patch things that require hotfixes, they don't seem to do a lot of internal testing or theorize about obvious problems that get discovered immediately by the playerbase.

    The kid gloves approach they take with Mesmers versus other professions is what's really head-scratching. Look how long it took them to nerf portal when it was the most game changing utility and they gave it to ONLY Mesmers...this is on top of being the profession with the most AI, high mobility, stealth, biggest power burst, biggest condi burst, most scaling defenses, most interrupts, lowest cooldown, shortest cast times, and virtually no resources to manage like every other profession (initiative, life force, adrenaline, energy, etc).

    No matter what they kid glove nerf, there's always a bunch of other builds just as powerful to use with mesmers because they literally are given the opportunity to build for anything. At one time, they were even unkillable bunkers, so this isn't just a one period isolated time of mesmers being broken.

    Whining about portal is like whining about a thief shadow step juking you into getting decapped. Portal should be unnerfed immediately.

    Honestly, you're 100% right. Portals were always a strong tactical tool, and that was a great play maker or zoning tool. Nerfing that really sends a message that the game is going to be less and less about tactics and team play. I mean the guy that has been in charge of PvP does seem to think that a ranked team queue is less competitive, so no wonder cooperation is being downplayed. (not that portal isn't/wasn't also a great individual tool)

    Mhm. if I was going to nerf anything about mesmers right now, it would be core stuff and their synergy with Mirage and mirage's damage output and 1v1 potential. . Stuff like this:

    Deceptive Evasion:
    Clones Spawned by Deceptive Evasion no longer spawn Automatically doing their Ambush attack with Infinite Horizon.
    It's a fun trait synergy, but I think it's too much with Infinite Horizon. Infinite Horizon rewards spawning and maintaining three clones at once, and with all the AoE and cleave spilling around is actually somewhat difficult. But the investment in having and maintaining clones is undercut when a dodge roll doesn't just spawn a clone, but also automatically gives you the damage is putting too much into the value of one dodge even for Mirage. Deceptive Evasion is fine, but they shouldn't ambush until the Mirage Cloak after they spawn.

    Cry of Pain:
    I think a lot of people really missed how much this trait impacted Mesmer in PvP. Just a refresher, it used to be Illusionary Retribution, which had all shatter skills apply confusion on shatter. The end result is that a 3 Clone Mind Wrack or Distraction would both apply 4 stacks of confusion, and a three clone Cry of Frustration would apply 8 stacks of confusion. However, during the Phantasm rework last February they switched it so that it now gives Cry of Frustration 2 additional stacks of confusion, front loading ALL of the Mesmer's potential Confusion output into just one shatter. Now Cry of Frustration on it's own if it lands is 12 stacks of confusion just right there and that doesn't even count Blinding Disipation+Ineptitude. This made Illusions condi mirage FAR burstier than it had been previously.

    While Illusions has fallen out of the meta in favor of Chaos, I do think this trait might be better off being reverted back to 1 additional confusion stack per shatter, giving mesmer more value for all their shatters long term rather than just Cry of Frustration.

    I feel like mesmers of all varieties should focus less on 1v1ing and immense condi pressure (Though condi pressure should still be a thing) and more by outplaying enemies with unique one of a kind utility. Portal nerf was the exact opposite direction mesmer should have gone.

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion

  • @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Whining about portal is like whining about a thief shadow step juking you into getting decapped. Portal should be unnerfed immediately.

    eeexcept portal isn't usable halfway across the map by the whole team.

    pew~

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Revolution.5409 said:

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

    @SPESHAL.9106 said:
    This has been going on for over a year. They tried ONE midseason nerf...not enough last year. They tried ANOTHER midseason nerf...not enough last year. They tried aTHIRD midseason nerf...not enough. They did a few balance patches since then to add more nerfs...still not enough as Mesmers are far above most other professions in polls of the most OP.

    There are polls, like this one started by a mesmer hater, which reflect a tired bias (so many votes, so few actual reasons):

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/63182/most-op-class-dec-14-2018/p1

    and then there is reality: Mesmers are underrepresented in the leaderboards.

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/63990/mesmer-is-trash-and-it-needs-buffs#latest

    But OP, nerf moar, right?

    If there are few mesmer in top50 this does not mean mirage is not OP.
    someone can say the good mesmer have left the game or play less to classify in high positions or have decided to play a season with a different class because bored, you have to see everything and not just top50 or top250, mesmer is OP and anet is not really balancing the class.

    That didn't stop top players rolling boonbeast and holosmiths back before the auto S nerf.

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion

  • Aza.2105Aza.2105 Member ✭✭✭

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    Again, not that I think this is the issue. I'd be fine with micromanaging condis if my kittening stuns or interrupts had to make the mirage think instead of "oh, theres a weird effect on me, guess I'll just dodge again"

    Micromanaging conditions in gw2 will never be ok since the game wasn't made to do it. GW1 was, but if you compare the two, gw1 was much slower pace. GW2 on the other hand, if you look down at your UI then in the next second you can be dead. That is primarily the problem with the game currently, its like you are playing on turbo speed mode.

    You have to:

    • Find the right mesmer among its half dozen clones.
    • Then you have to manually click the mesmer, since tab targeting through them is really bad.
    • Then you have to stop looking at the screen and look to see if you have torment or confusion.
    • You then stop moving or using skills for a few seconds.

    Just those four steps take well over 5 seconds or so. But you can die in a fraction of a second. I said it once and I will say it again. Anet really needs to limit the amount of clones, phantasms or whatever you would like to call them. Before the rework I never had a problem with mesmer duplicates. But now, its just a bunch of nasty visual clutter. I can understand why Mirage is considered top tier. With their toolkit and clone clutter, they aren't really fighting anyone. Its a one sided fight for the most part. Remove mirage from the game and stealth, then gw2 would be in a alright spot.

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Whining about portal is like whining about a thief shadow step juking you into getting decapped. Portal should be unnerfed immediately.

    eeexcept portal isn't usable halfway across the map by the whole team.

    And thieves has several times the sustained speed of mesmer even if the mesmer is using portal, blink, jaunt and Mirage thrust. The asymmetry and uniqueness is fine as long as the game is designed to account for that. Whining about how Portal was one of the strongest utilities in the game especially in team play is like whining that Infiltrator's Arrow is the strongest weapon 5 skill and swings more games than any other weapon 5 skill.

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion

  • Solori.6025Solori.6025 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @gateless gate.8406 said:

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:
    and then there is reality: Mesmers are underrepresented in the leaderboards.

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/63990/mesmer-is-trash-and-it-needs-buffs#latest

    But OP, nerf moar, right?

    If you balance any game for the top 50 players, you can expect the playerbase to gradually decline to just those 50 players.

    .....But hasn't spvp already seen a sharp decline of players even trying to balance around casuals?

    Tingle my stingleberry

  • @Revolution.5409 said:

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

    @SPESHAL.9106 said:
    This has been going on for over a year. They tried ONE midseason nerf...not enough last year. They tried ANOTHER midseason nerf...not enough last year. They tried aTHIRD midseason nerf...not enough. They did a few balance patches since then to add more nerfs...still not enough as Mesmers are far above most other professions in polls of the most OP.

    There are polls, like this one started by a mesmer hater, which reflect a tired bias (so many votes, so few actual reasons):

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/63182/most-op-class-dec-14-2018/p1

    and then there is reality: Mesmers are underrepresented in the leaderboards.

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/63990/mesmer-is-trash-and-it-needs-buffs#latest

    But OP, nerf moar, right?

    If there are few mesmer in top50 this does not mean mirage is not OP.
    someone can say the good mesmer have left the game or play less to classify in high positions or have decided to play a season with a different class because bored, you have to see everything and not just top50 or top250, mesmer is OP and anet is not really balancing the class.

    Or... Mesmer just isn't as OP as people insist. Especially compared to Soulbeast and Holosmith pre-Elixir S nerf. That's just as plausible as, if not more so than, the other possibilities.

    @gateless gate.8406 said:

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:
    and then there is reality: Mesmers are underrepresented in the leaderboards.

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/63990/mesmer-is-trash-and-it-needs-buffs#latest

    But OP, nerf moar, right?

    If you balance any game for the top 50 players, you can expect the playerbase to gradually decline to just those 50 players.

    Never said to balance for the top 50. Simply responded to the popular gripe that Mesmer is ridiculously OP. If that were true it wouldn't require much skill to play and succeed, and naturally would be more represented in the higher tiers, and indeed at all levels.

    Maybe someone can provide this, as I don't know where to find it: how much do Mesmers represent the mid and lower tiers? If it's no more than average, where is the evidence that mesmer is in desperate need of balancing--at any level of competiton?

    Or are we back to people just hating on that which they don't understand or find annoying? Do we have any more objective measure of class over/under performance than ranked outcomes?

  • @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:
    Never said to balance for the top 50. Simply responded to the popular gripe that Mesmer is ridiculously OP. If that were true it wouldn't require much skill to play and succeed, and naturally would be more represented in the higher tiers, and indeed at all levels.

    Maybe someone can provide this, as I don't know where to find it: how much do Mesmers represent the mid and lower tiers? If it's no more than average, where is the evidence that mesmer is in desperate need of balancing--at any level of competiton?

    Or are we back to people just hating on that which they don't understand or find annoying? Do we have any more objective measure of class over/under performance than ranked outcomes?

    People don't just hate mirage for its raw damage numbers or something like that (though laying on huge stacks of confusion obviously hits quite hard). It's the endless clones, the detargeting, the stealth, the teleports. It all adds up to an extremely obnoxious class.

  • Revolution.5409Revolution.5409 Member ✭✭
    edited December 26, 2018

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

    @Revolution.5409 said:

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

    @SPESHAL.9106 said:
    This has been going on for over a year. They tried ONE midseason nerf...not enough last year. They tried ANOTHER midseason nerf...not enough last year. They tried aTHIRD midseason nerf...not enough. They did a few balance patches since then to add more nerfs...still not enough as Mesmers are far above most other professions in polls of the most OP.

    There are polls, like this one started by a mesmer hater, which reflect a tired bias (so many votes, so few actual reasons):

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/63182/most-op-class-dec-14-2018/p1

    and then there is reality: Mesmers are underrepresented in the leaderboards.

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/63990/mesmer-is-trash-and-it-needs-buffs#latest

    But OP, nerf moar, right?

    If there are few mesmer in top50 this does not mean mirage is not OP.
    someone can say the good mesmer have left the game or play less to classify in high positions or have decided to play a season with a different class because bored, you have to see everything and not just top50 or top250, mesmer is OP and anet is not really balancing the class.

    Or... Mesmer just isn't as OP as people insist. Especially compared to Soulbeast and Holosmith pre-Elixir S nerf. That's just as plausible as, if not more so than, the other possibilities.

    no one says that SB or Holosmith are not strong, but comparing a class that is dueler, and effective teamfighter that has instant skills and has access to teleporters, invisibility, stuns and invulnerability all in one build and that can apply 10+ stack of confusion and torment at low intervals say SB and Holo are OP and mirage no seems only a comment to justify a class that is still above all specializations except (perhaps) SB in a 1vs1 duel.

  • @mortrialus.3062 said:
    And thieves has several times the sustained speed of mesmer even if the mesmer is using portal, blink, jaunt and Mirage thrust. The asymmetry and uniqueness is fine as long as the game is designed to account for that. Whining about how Portal was one of the strongest utilities in the game especially in team play is like whining that Infiltrator's Arrow is the strongest weapon 5 skill and swings more games than any other weapon 5 skill.

    you still don't get it lol, but that's alright.

    pew~

  • Solori.6025Solori.6025 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Revolution.5409 said:

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

    @Revolution.5409 said:

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

    @SPESHAL.9106 said:
    This has been going on for over a year. They tried ONE midseason nerf...not enough last year. They tried ANOTHER midseason nerf...not enough last year. They tried aTHIRD midseason nerf...not enough. They did a few balance patches since then to add more nerfs...still not enough as Mesmers are far above most other professions in polls of the most OP.

    There are polls, like this one started by a mesmer hater, which reflect a tired bias (so many votes, so few actual reasons):

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/63182/most-op-class-dec-14-2018/p1

    and then there is reality: Mesmers are underrepresented in the leaderboards.

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/63990/mesmer-is-trash-and-it-needs-buffs#latest

    But OP, nerf moar, right?

    If there are few mesmer in top50 this does not mean mirage is not OP.
    someone can say the good mesmer have left the game or play less to classify in high positions or have decided to play a season with a different class because bored, you have to see everything and not just top50 or top250, mesmer is OP and anet is not really balancing the class.

    Or... Mesmer just isn't as OP as people insist. Especially compared to Soulbeast and Holosmith pre-Elixir S nerf. That's just as plausible as, if not more so than, the other possibilities.

    no one says that SB or Holosmith are not strong, but comparing a class that is dueler, and effective teamfighter that has instant skills and has access to teleporters, invisibility, stuns and invulnerability all in one build and that can apply 10+ stack of confusion and torment at low intervals say SB and Holo are OP and mirage no seems only a comment to justify a class that is still above all specializations except (perhaps) SB in a 1vs1 duel.

    ......you do realize every class has instant skills.
    Aside from teleports. ( and obvious condition whinning)
    Both holo and SB bring everything you listed. And can be twice as effective.

    Tingle my stingleberry

  • @Solori.6025 said:

    ......you do realize every class has instant skills.
    Aside from teleports. ( and obvious condition whinning)
    Both holo and SB bring everything you listed. And can be twice as effective.

    Are you comparing the access to mesmer stelth with a rng-based feather? Ranger to get "safe" access to invisibility will have to replace one of his pet with smokescale and use LB, so build will be less tanky not being able to use Unflinching Fortitude or Spiritual Reprieve and lose all aoe damage (if you decide to replace axe).
    Boonbeast can never kill an opponent in two seconds with a combination of keys, to do this must change Nature Magic and replace it with Beast Mastery or Marksman, totally changing build and amulet.
    SB mechanic's F3 abilities have a very long casting and SB's pet exchange mechanic is interruptible by killing the pet, but it can be twice as effective lol XD

    it's true, ranger can have all these things but not at the same time. Mirage loses nothing to use all these mechanics in a single build.

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    And thieves has several times the sustained speed of mesmer even if the mesmer is using portal, blink, jaunt and Mirage thrust. The asymmetry and uniqueness is fine as long as the game is designed to account for that. Whining about how Portal was one of the strongest utilities in the game especially in team play is like whining that Infiltrator's Arrow is the strongest weapon 5 skill and swings more games than any other weapon 5 skill.

    you still don't get it lol, but that's alright.

    And you don't get that I think mesmers should primarily contribute to conquest games with unique one of a kind utility like they have for six years until portal was smiters booned.

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion

  • Solori.6025Solori.6025 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 26, 2018

    @Revolution.5409 said:

    @Solori.6025 said:

    ......you do realize every class has instant skills.
    Aside from teleports. ( and obvious condition whinning)
    Both holo and SB bring everything you listed. And can be twice as effective.

    Are you comparing the access to mesmer stelth with a rng-based feather? Ranger to get "safe" access to invisibility will have to replace one of his pet with smokescale and use LB, so build will be less tanky not being able to use Unflinching Fortitude or Spiritual Reprieve and lose all aoe damage (if you decide to replace axe).
    Boonbeast can never kill an opponent in two seconds with a combination of keys, to do this must change Nature Magic and replace it with Beast Mastery or Marksman, totally changing build and amulet.
    SB mechanic's F3 abilities have a very long casting and SB's pet exchange mechanic is interruptible by killing the pet, but it can be twice as effective lol XD

    it's true, ranger can have all these things but not at the same time. Mirage loses nothing to use all these mechanics in a single build.

    Oh no.
    We aren't comparing at all, that's what you are doing.
    We are listing your inaccuracies from what you typed.
    I didn't bring up any specific builds
    Anything more than what was typed that you are reading in to is entirely on You and vice-versa for me as well.

    No boonbeast can not kill anyone in 2 seconds..
    In fact- Most builds when put up against competent players wont kill something in literally 2 seconds.
    But that is irrelevent to the original reply, and again, is a construct of you trying to reach for something else to discuss.
    Ranger and Holo do in fact have access to stealth, and invulns. For holo especially, those things are all in one build.
    For Ranger it is more of a random chance when using the meta build listed here
    https://www.godsofpvp.net/builds/ranger/
    But it still does in fact have access- please don't pretend it doesn't as that is a complete lie
    Both (or all ) classes have access to instant skills

    If you wan't to compare how builds vs builds work, be my guest.
    Listing things that other classes have access to as if mesmer is the only class to have access to them, does nothing but make the entire argument you presented seem hyperbolic, and deeply rooted in class hate. If that is how you wanted your post to be, then do not be surprised that people take apart your post and pick out the major inaccuracies within it.

    Edit:
    I noticed Holo was absent from your reply...
    Why is that?

    Edit 2: You are also right that ranger would have to give up something for complete immunity like Elixer S or Distortion.

    Tingle my stingleberry

  • @Solori.6025 said:

    Oh no.
    We aren't comparing at all, that's what you are doing.
    We are listing your inaccuracies from what you typed.
    I didn't bring up any specific builds
    Anything more than what was typed that you are reading in to is entirely on You and vice-versa for me as well.

    No boonbeast can not kill anyone in 2 seconds..
    In fact- Most builds when put up against competent players wont kill something in literally 2 seconds.
    But that is irrelevent to the original reply, and again, is a construct of you trying to reach for something else to discuss.
    Ranger and Holo do in fact have access to stealth, and invulns. For holo especially, those things are all in one build.
    For Ranger it is more of a random chance when using the meta build listed here
    https://www.godsofpvp.net/builds/ranger/
    But it still does in fact have access- please don't pretend it doesn't as that is a complete lie
    Both (or all ) classes have access to instant skills

    If you wan't to compare how builds vs builds work, be my guest.
    Listing things that other classes have access to as if mesmer is the only class to have access to them, does nothing but make the entire argument you presented seem hyperbolic, and deeply rooted in class hate. If that is how you wanted your post to be, then do not be surprised that people take apart your post and pick out the major inaccuracies within it.

    Edit:
    I noticed Holo was absent from your reply...
    Why is that?

    Edit 2: You are also right that ranger would have to give up something for complete immunity like Elixer S or Distortion.

    You do not need to show a specific build if the post is a discussion of what it means to play against a Condi Mirage.
    My answer was for a user who said SB / Holo are more OP of Mirage, also saying that they are twice as effective is a way to compare the classes.
    I never said the opposite about the instant skills, I said "the ranger class mechanic has skill with a long casting" which is very different.
    Give a different meaning to my words, I said Mirage has all those features in a single build unlike other classes, and I explained why SB will never have a single, effective build to cover multiple roles like Mirage and I made some examples
    I try to be objective and argue why Mirage can not be considered inferior to other specializations and why I think this, and this does not mean that i hate the class.

  • Bossun.2046Bossun.2046 Member ✭✭✭

    Power mesmer is alright to go against. You know their rotation and what their heavy hitting skills are. Can avoid or block easily if you pay attention. Condi axe mirage on the other hand is the complete opposite. With the clones, ports stealth and distortion the best thing one can hope is that it's their first time playing mesmer

    sugoi monogatari oniichan

  • Solori.6025Solori.6025 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Revolution.5409 said:

    @Solori.6025 said:

    Oh no.
    We aren't comparing at all, that's what you are doing.
    We are listing your inaccuracies from what you typed.
    I didn't bring up any specific builds
    Anything more than what was typed that you are reading in to is entirely on You and vice-versa for me as well.

    No boonbeast can not kill anyone in 2 seconds..
    In fact- Most builds when put up against competent players wont kill something in literally 2 seconds.
    But that is irrelevent to the original reply, and again, is a construct of you trying to reach for something else to discuss.
    Ranger and Holo do in fact have access to stealth, and invulns. For holo especially, those things are all in one build.
    For Ranger it is more of a random chance when using the meta build listed here
    https://www.godsofpvp.net/builds/ranger/
    But it still does in fact have access- please don't pretend it doesn't as that is a complete lie
    Both (or all ) classes have access to instant skills

    If you wan't to compare how builds vs builds work, be my guest.
    Listing things that other classes have access to as if mesmer is the only class to have access to them, does nothing but make the entire argument you presented seem hyperbolic, and deeply rooted in class hate. If that is how you wanted your post to be, then do not be surprised that people take apart your post and pick out the major inaccuracies within it.

    Edit:
    I noticed Holo was absent from your reply...
    Why is that?

    Edit 2: You are also right that ranger would have to give up something for complete immunity like Elixer S or Distortion.

    You do not need to show a specific build if the post is a discussion of what it means to play against a Condi Mirage.
    My answer was for a user who said SB / Holo are more OP of Mirage, also saying that they are twice as effective is a way to compare the classes.
    I never said the opposite about the instant skills, I said "the ranger class mechanic has skill with a long casting" which is very different.
    Give a different meaning to my words, I said Mirage has all those features in a single build unlike other classes, and I explained why SB will never have a single, effective build to cover multiple roles like Mirage and I made some examples
    I try to be objective and argue why Mirage can not be considered inferior to other specializations and why I think this, and this does not mean that i hate the class.

    Ah I see.
    I agree that mirage is not inferior in the slightest, But I also don't think it is the overbearing titan of all classes like people choose to believe.
    I would say power mirage is a little underwhelming when you figure out the patterns, and apply pressure.

    Fair enough on the comparison, I can understand how it could be interpreted that way. Though I did not intend to compare build v build.
    You did list instant skills in the long list of things a mirage has in it's build. You did not say anything about the class mechanic in the original post I quoted. Which is what my comment referred to. For your reference though

    @Revolution.5409 said:

    no one says that SB or Holosmith are not strong, but comparing a class that is dueler, and effective teamfighter that has instant skills and has access to teleporters, invisibility, stuns and invulnerability all in one build

    While I did agree with you on the invuln part for ranger, I disagree with stealth as " having it in a build" is quite different from " having safe access" In your original list you did not specify "at will" or "safe" as such that list would be misleading, which is what my comment to that post pointed out. If you were talking about the ability to safely go into stealth - Holo would be the better comparison, and thus your list would need to be modified to only defend ranger in that category
    (That doesn't however mean that ranger has None it does, its random, but it does.)

    Tingle my stingleberry

  • Solori.6025Solori.6025 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Bossun.2046 said:
    Power mesmer is alright to go against. You know their rotation and what their heavy hitting skills are. Can avoid or block easily if you pay attention. Condi axe mirage on the other hand is the complete opposite. With the clones, ports stealth and distortion the best thing one can hope is that it's their first time playing mesmer

    Both builds have clone ports stealth and distortion. The only difference is conditions. Conditions is what needs to be looked at.

    Tingle my stingleberry

  • @Solori.6025 said:

    Ah I see.
    I agree that mirage is not inferior in the slightest, But I also don't think it is the overbearing titan of all classes like people choose to believe.
    I would say power mirage is a little underwhelming when you figure out the patterns, and apply pressure.

    Fair enough on the comparison, I can understand how it could be interpreted that way. Though I did not intend to compare build v build.
    You did list instant skills in the long list of things a mirage has in it's build. You did not say anything about the class mechanic in the original post I quoted. Which is what my comment referred to. For your reference though

    @Revolution.5409 said:

    no one says that SB or Holosmith are not strong, but comparing a class that is dueler, and effective teamfighter that has instant skills and has access to teleporters, invisibility, stuns and invulnerability all in one build

    While I did agree with you on the invuln part for ranger, I disagree with stealth as " having it in a build" is quite different from " having safe access" In your original list you did not specify "at will" or "safe" as such that list would be misleading, which is what my comment to that post pointed out. If you were talking about the ability to safely go into stealth - Holo would be the better comparison, and thus your list would need to be modified to only defend ranger in that category
    (That doesn't however mean that ranger has None it does, its random, but it does.)

    sure I agree in fact my post did not want to represent the class as "mesmer OP needs nerf" but it goes against those who think it is inferior, so I listed what it is able to do to prove otherwise
    It is true I generalized I will try to better argue my posts in the future. :)

  • @mortrialus.3062 said:
    And you don't get that I think mesmers should primarily contribute to conquest games with unique one of a kind utility like they have for six years until portal was smiters booned.

    so mesmers are less snowflaky, big whoop... but guess what. they still have a meta build, plus a couple other good working builds. le gasp!

    pew~

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    And you don't get that I think mesmers should primarily contribute to conquest games with unique one of a kind utility like they have for six years until portal was smiters booned.

    so mesmers are less snowflaky, big whoop... but guess what. they still have a meta build, plus a couple other good working builds. le gasp!

    Portal plays have consistently been the coolest, most exciting plays in conquest and the value of the skill gets higher the smarter and more creatively it is used. We want more abilities to work like Portal in the sense of how interesting and unique their utility is, as well as how high the skill cap for their use can be.

    You would turn conquest into a skillless game of Rock Em Sock Em Robots where people just stand still pushing buttons until someone eventually wins, which to be fair it sounds like you desperately need.

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion

  • @Revolution.5409 said:
    sure I agree in fact my post did not want to represent the class as "mesmer OP needs nerf" but it goes against those who think it is inferior, so I listed what it is able to do to prove otherwise

    I don't think anyone honestly believes mesmer is "inferior", even after being nerfed with almost every balance patch of 2018. But it is undeniably the most singled out profession by the community as something to despise, and is commonly perceived to be the most OP class. Which is to say it's more OP than every other class in the game, including Soulbeast and Holosmith. That simply isn't true, especially after the latest patch.

    People can say mesmers are "annoying" or "obnoxious" to play against. And that is a subjective opinion to which they are entitled. But to say mesmer is OP is a claim that is measurable objectively. And there doesn't seem to be any more objective measure than ranked outcomes, where mes is decidedly underrepresented compared to other "overperforming" classes.

    But popular perception often lags reality.

<1
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