Why isn't there an equivalent of the Infusion Extraction Device for Sigils and Runes?

An obvious answer would be because the studio says so. However, the 600 pound gorilla can not use its nature and mass as logic without simultaneously offering a description of its character. The studio resembles the 600 pound gorilla only in the abstract and I am not suggesting any literal resemblance.

Does the answer depend on how infusions, sigils and runes are entangled with gameplay? If so, then having a smaller scope of entanglement earned infusions a low cost, in-game way to be removed from gear. The broader entanglement with gameplay of runes and sigils earned them a high cost, gem shop specific way to be removed.

Does the answer depend on the comparative market cost of infusions, sigils and runes? If so, then the potential for high market value earned infusions a low cost, in-game way to be removed. The relatively low cost of sigils and runes earned them a high cost, gem shop specific way to be removed.

Does the answer have something to with helping homo economicus navigate work and value pathways? At the current exchange rate, an upgrade would have to cost 27-28 gold for homo economicus to exchange gold for gems or 17-18 gold for them to exchange gems to gold. More infusions exist above that threshold than runes and sigils.

The only answer I can come up with is that Upgrade Extractors offer a high fidelity monetization of the sunk cost fallacy. The players most likely to experience the sunk cost fallacy will be employing a nonconforming approach to pricing utility. They will be emotionally attached to earning things in Tyria and as Tyrians, a dignified consumer the studio may use to cultivate honor.

I could use a different answer.

Idk what you said,

I assume market for sigils and runes.

Pseconomics

You seem to think they are equivalent things but they are not. The primary purpose of infusions is for AR and the only purpose of that is to act as a limiter for fractals. There are stat infusions but just look at how much impact they are meant to have. A single food gives you more stats than filling all 18 slots with stat infusions.

For the most part you will use the same runes/sigils for a long time where infusions are constantly needing to be upgraded until you reach max AR but to get there you need the lesser infusions. I have been running monk runes on my druid since it was made and as far as I know it is still what is wanted in raids etc.

@Justine.6351 said:I assume market for sigils and runes.

This. Most infusions are not tradeable, runes and sigils are - their value would drop to nothing if there was a free extraction kit. Get the endless upgrade extractor if you don't want to pay each time. ;)

Nm... mispost

Why isn't there an equivalent of the Infusion Extraction Device for Sigils and Runes?There is.The endless upgrade extractor costs 3-4k in gold. Individual extractors cost (at current gold:gem rates) about 10 20 gold worth of gems.

edit: fixed a typo on the gold-equivalent cost of extractors, based on typical rather than peak exchange rates)

@Lightbringer.5860 said:For the most part you will use the same runes/sigils for a long time where infusions are constantly needing to be upgraded until you reach max AR but to get there you need the lesser infusions. I have been running monk runes on my druid since it was made and as far as I know it is still what is wanted in raids etc.

Thank you, I should have included the infusion upgrade process in my original post. The frequency that infusions must be extracted explains why infusion extractors exist. However, I do not think the supposed infrequency of how often a player wants to change runes explains why there isn't a similar device available in game for runes. If it does explain it, then the logic is that infrequent demand makes charging a premium in the gem shop logical.

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

Why isn't there an equivalent of the Infusion Extraction Device for Sigils and Runes?There is.The endless upgrade extractor costs 3-4k in gold. Individual extractors cost (at current gold:gem rates) about 10 gold worth of gems.

I need you to clarify your statements. How is an item found in BL chests that sells for 3-4k the equivalent of an item offered by an NPC for 24 silver? Since they do similar things we can focus on the price and how it is obtained.

Upgrade extractors cost 60, 70 or 83 gems depending on the bundle. The current exchange rate puts the gold price at 20-21, 24-25, 28-29. Where does one find an Upgrade Extractor for 10 gold worth of gems?

@Ashantara.8731 said:

@Justine.6351 said:I assume market for sigils and runes.

Many infusions are tradeable and trade for very high sums and since the infusion extractor isn't free, I don't know why its equivalent would be free.

The high cost of Upgrade Extractors does reinforce the value of runes and sigils. What I am struggling to accept is the premium charged for the ability to not overwrite existing runes and upgrades and making the item available only in the gem shop. Does the cost mean that only vulnerable consumers will use the product? The only consumers I can picture using it are either unable to do the math or emotionally invested in their possessions. What is the design philosophy behind charging a premium and putting the product in the gem shop?

@Hashberry.4510 said:Pseconomics

Thank you for being funny.

@Psientist.6437 said:

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

Why isn't there an equivalent of the Infusion Extraction Device for Sigils and Runes?There is.The endless upgrade extractor costs 3-4k in gold. Individual extractors cost (at current gold:gem rates) about 10 gold worth of gems.

Did you mean to ask why are they priced differently? Are you saying you don't understand the economic explanations above? Or are you saying you don't like ANet's choice to preserve the value of the crafting materials?

Upgrade extractors cost 60, 70 or 83 gems depending on the bundle. The current exchange rate puts the gold price at 20-21, 24-25, 28-29. Where does one find an Upgrade Extractor for 10 gold worth of gems?

I meant to type 20 gold, sorry about that. I'll fix that. The exchange rate this year has fluctuated from below 100 gems per 400 gems to nearly 160 and i was just going with the round number I use to determine the cutoff price I used to decide whether to buy one to recover an upgrade.

Do you really have to copy every bad economist that uses pretentious and complex language to explain sth that is fairly simple?

Anyway if you ask me the answer is probably the one you do not not like. It is a great way for monetization that would not piss off players too much. If infusion extraction, on the other hand, also needed gems it would directly affect everyday gameplay. Players would not tolerate that and it would affect fractal participation.

Sigil and rune extraction is a different story . It only affects the people that want optimal builds or do theory crafting (since they will be using the more expensive ones). The rest do not care that much (and are not in a hurry to make new runes and sigils the moment a meta shifts). The people that do though will need to change them regularly especially during a balance patch to try different builds. Imagine how many times you might have to change them when doing benchmarks on the PvE golem for example after a balance patch. And many of the runes and sigils require some farming process. Many people also keep many in their bank for future use if the meta changes again so they do not have to farm for them. There is incentive to buy the premium to save you some time when the meta changes.

Before the recent change there was even greater incentive since some of them were not even craft-able. That would explain why the new sigil/rune crafting changes came with a reduction of the extractor gem price. The premium is also tied with the value of legendary gear. A specific QoL change is the ability to switch sigil and runes at will. The premium for the extractors keeps the perceived value of legendary gear higher.

@Psientist.6437 said:

@Ashantara.8731 said:

@Justine.6351 said:I assume market for sigils and runes.

Only the effect/aura ones and the simple infusions that don't grant attribute boni.

@"Turin.6921" said:Do you really have to copy every bad economist that uses pretentious and complex language to explain sth that is fairly simple?

Anyway if you ask me the answer is probably the one you do not not like. It is a great way for monetization that would not kitten off players too much. If infusion extraction, on the other hand, also needed gems it would directly affect everyday gameplay. Players would not tolerate that and it would affect fractal participation.

Sigil and rune extraction is a different story . It only affects the people that want optimal builds or do theory crafting (since they will be using the more expensive ones). The rest do not care that much (and are not in a hurry to make new runes and sigils the moment a meta shifts). The people that do though will need to change them regularly especially during a balance patch to try different builds. Imagine how many times you might have to change them when doing benchmarks on the PvE golem for example after a balance patch. And many of the runes and sigils require some farming process. Many people also keep many in their bank for future use if the meta changes again so they do not have to farm for them. There is incentive to buy the premium to save you some time when the meta changes.

Before the recent change there was even greater incentive since some of them were not even craft-able. That would explain why the new sigil/rune crafting changes came with a reduction of the extractor gem price. The premium is also tied with the value of legendary gear. A specific QoL change is the ability to switch sigil and runes at will. The premium for the extractors keeps the perceived value of legendary gear higher.

If the language works I use it and I enjoy writing complex sentences.

The new method of producing runes and sigils increases the efficiency of producing the most demanded runes and sigils. It will cost less to buy multiples of the same rune or sigil from the market than buy a single use upgrade extractor. Unless the studio introduces Ascended runes and sigils or makes existing ones more expensive, this will not change. How can single use upgrade extractors offer a player testing builds any savings? How could they calculate a savings without pricing in a value for loss aversion?

Why does the perceived value of legendary gear need to be reinforced through the gem shop?

I understand the premise behind using overwriting to destroy "gear" as a way to create economic activity. However, the studio can not do that without assuming the role played by capsuleers in New Eden and reinforcing the narrative of a predatorily monetized economy. I am trying to reduce that pseconomic dissonance. What would be the effect of removing upgrade extractors from the gem shop and offering them instead in-game for gold?

All narrative that the studio is making changes to drive gem sales and economic activity would be converted into narrative that the studio is making changes to drive economic activity and reduce the risk of inflation.

Since single use upgrade extractors do not offer savings and are unlikely to ever again, the studio gets to remove an undignified product from the gem shop. Since monetizing loss aversion can be profitable, the studio's bottom line would suffer.

Is there another product in the gem shop that does not increase the overall value of a player's account but instead only offers the chance to maintain current account value?

@"Psientist.6437" said:If the language works I use it and I enjoy writing complex sentences.The primary purpose of forum writing is to communicate ideas to other people. Complex sentences don't usually manage that effectively. If your goal is to enjoy your writing, great, don't change a thing. If your goal is to convince ANet or the community to reconsider the status quo, you might want to reconsider.

The new method of producing runes and sigils increases the efficiency of producing the most demanded runes and sigils. It will cost less to buy multiples of the same rune or sigil from the market than buy a single use upgrade extractor. Unless the studio introduces Ascended runes and sigils or makes existing ones more expensive, this will not change. How can single use upgrade extractors offer a player testing builds any savings? How could they calculate a savings without pricing in a value for loss aversion?There's little evidence that ANet considers build testing costs as an important factor in mechanics. As others have said, the data probably shows that only a tiny fraction of players change gear often enough that the costs are worrisome.

Why does the perceived value of legendary gear need to be reinforced through the gem shop?I think people were arguing that the comparative convenience of a legendary would drop if such an item existed. It's not about "reinforcing".

I understand the premise behind using overwriting to destroy "gear" as a way to create economic activity.Not exactly. It creates increased demand, which helps preserve the value.

However, the studio can not do that without assuming the role played by capsuleers in New Eden and reinforcing the narrative of a predatorily monetized economy.Not at all sure what this means: capsuleer? new eden? narrative? predatorial monetized economy?

What would be the effect of removing upgrade extractors from the gem shop and offering them instead in-game for gold?

What's the difference? Unless you mean offering them for 2 gold each instead of 20 gold each, there's no practical importance to selling them in game, other than putting the burden on the gold supply rather than the gem supply.

All narrative that the studio is making changes to drive gem sales and economic activity would be converted into narrative that the studio is making changes to drive economic activity and reduce the risk of inflation.Again, no, unless you are advocating for a different price then it would have little practice impact.

Since single use upgrade extractors do not offer savings and are unlikely to ever again, the studio gets to remove an undignified product from the gem shop. Since monetizing loss aversion can be profitable, the studio's bottom line would suffer.Again, meaning lost. Undignified product? monetizing loss aversion? I recognize the words, not the meaning in this context.

Is there another product in the gem shop that does not increase the overall value of a player's account but instead only offers the chance to maintain current account value?I think the primary reason that upgrade extractors are sold in the gem shop is that they are offered as drops in BL chests. It makes them seem especially valuable.

And the answer is sure there is. Those thingies that let you change your appearance. I am tired and blanking on the term but they do not add value to the account. I wouldn't think revive orbs do either, or the makeover kits.

Yes you can stock them and then maybe they add value until used but so can you stock upgrade extractors.

@Khisanth.2948 said:A single food gives you more stats than filling all 18 slots with stat infusions.Yet while gaining only 90 stat, you'll still max out AR and even go over, so then you'd save on gold using whatever balance of 5s and 7s instead.

So what's the problem?

@XenoSpyro.1780 said:

@Khisanth.2948 said:A single food gives you more stats than filling all 18 slots with stat infusions.Yet while gaining only 90 stat, you'll still max out AR and even go over, so then you'd save on gold using whatever balance of 5s and 7s instead.

Who said anything about a problem? Maybe read the rest of the post? Context matters.

I think infusions are in a bit of a mess at current state. An aura effect wardrobe would be nice, Infusion exchange to change stats, and ability to move them freely around at much less cost.

@Psientist.6437 said:

If the language works I use it and I enjoy writing complex sentences.

Thats the point is does not. If you are using complex sentences for the sake of being complex you re not communication and nobody will take your discourse seriously.

If you want to write a novel for your own linguistic enjoyment go ahead by all means. If you want to communicate clearly then complexity is justified when the meaning cannot be conveyed otherwise. If you are using complex sentences to convey simple ideas then you are sabotaging yourself, you show alack of respect towards others and might even imply lack of actual knowledge on a matter. If you cannot explain sth plainly then you do not really understand it. If you do not get any satisfying answers and people unwilling discuss it with you should know what to blame for it.