Raids - Improving the grouping experience — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Raids - Improving the grouping experience

Zagerus.8675Zagerus.8675 Member ✭✭
edited December 18, 2018 in Fractals, Dungeons, and Raids

So, it's no secret that raids consist of some of the best and most epic content that GW2 has to offer. It's also no secret that a good portion of the community is sort of alienated from this content for one reason or another. For how good raids are, I think way too many people are missing out because of how hard it is to group up for them. An issue that literally every raider runs into is finding a consistent group of 9 other players to run with. This is inherent to -every- group that I've been in, however, static or not. Time, expected skill level, KP, someone can't show up - they all add additional layers of ugh to the grouping process. I feel like GW2 has been very successful in alleviating major annoyances that plague other MMO's. Honestly, I feel like there has to be a way to remedy the time-consuming task of grouping up for raids while at the same time making them more accessible for all players, regardless of how much time they have or their skill level.

The idea of a raid queue has been brought up several times on the forum and I find it interesting. The anonymous nature of a raid queue combined with a sort of -hotjoin- grouping experience would undoubtedly throw a lot more players toward raid content. This would be a very good thing, in my opinion. The main issue with a raid queue would be defining profession roles and team roles since some bosses have niche mechanics but I think this can be managed via the community. A raid queue could also diminish the social aspects that draw many players toward this type of content. Even still, I'm on the side of having a raid queue of some sort. The ability to log into the game, press a single button to play my preferred role and be in fighting a raid boss along side other heroes within minutes (hopefully?) - now that would be something. Now I can taste the boss mechanics in a 10 man setting with a roughly settled team comp. If someone has to leave, the queue has someone lined up for us already and we're {hopefully?} back in learning mechanics within minutes. This would be a dream come true. I wouldn't even care if we couldn't down a boss after 20 tries - just let me throw myself at the content repeatedly so I can learn alongside others who want to do the same. Please Anet!

*TL, DR: Add a Raid Queue with Team Roles built-in so us nubs can bash our face against raid bosses in an efficient manner.

Comments

  • Not sure how it will help tbh :frown:. Automated/ match making role call LFG? Automated but not so different from an odinary LFG function.

    • Squad will still kick an inadequate player joined using the match making LFG; what then?
    • What if a player have multiple class alts, does the system have role call limitation? Disadvantage if the player can't list down all the roles s/he can fill.
    • Squad can't look for specific roles if its an open match making, can't avoid the wait time even if its made possible.
  • Miellyn.6847Miellyn.6847 Member ✭✭✭

    @Zagerus.8675 said:
    So, it's no secret that raids consist of some of the best and most epic content that GW2 has to offer. It's also no secret that a good portion of the community is sort of alienated from this content for one reason or another. For how good raids are, I think way too many people are missing out because of how hard it is to group up for them. An issue that literally every raider runs into is finding a consistent group of 9 other players to run with. This is inherent to -every- group that I've been in, however, static or not. Time, expected skill level, KP, someone can't show up - they all add additional layers of ugh to the grouping process. I feel like GW2 has been very successful in alleviating major annoyances that plague other MMO's. Honestly, I feel like there has to be a way to remedy the time-consuming task of grouping up for raids while at the same time making them more accessible for all players, regardless of how much time they have or their skill level.

    The idea of a raid queue has been brought up several times on the forum and I find it interesting. The anonymous nature of a raid queue combined with a sort of -hotjoin- grouping experience would undoubtedly throw a lot more players toward raid content. This would be a very good thing, in my opinion. The main issue with a raid queue would be defining profession roles and team roles since some bosses have niche mechanics but I think this can be managed via the community. A raid queue could also diminish the social aspects that draw many players toward this type of content. Even still, I'm on the side of having a raid queue of some sort. The ability to log into the game, press a single button to play my preferred role and be in fighting a raid boss along side other heroes within minutes (hopefully?) - now that would be something. Now I can taste the boss mechanics in a 10 man setting with a roughly settled team comp. If someone has to leave, the queue has someone lined up for us already and we're {hopefully?} back in learning mechanics within minutes. This would be a dream come true. I wouldn't even care if we couldn't down a boss after 20 tries - just let me throw myself at the content repeatedly so I can learn alongside others who want to do the same. Please Anet!

    *TL, DR: Add a Raid Queue with Team Roles built-in so us nubs can bash our face against raid bosses in an efficient manner.

    This idea is still incredibly bad for group content that requires organisation. Every game that has it only uses it on an extremly dumbed down version of the instance that is also missing mechanics that requires organisation.
    It doesn't work on raids. People want to kill the bosses eventually and this system will never let them. So they come to the forums and complain the content is too hard.
    You are an really really small minority if you want to wipe all the time with randoms on bosses.

  • maxwelgm.4315maxwelgm.4315 Member ✭✭✭

    @Miellyn.6847 said:

    @Zagerus.8675 said:
    So, it's no secret that raids consist of some of the best and most epic content that GW2 has to offer. It's also no secret that a good portion of the community is sort of alienated from this content for one reason or another. For how good raids are, I think way too many people are missing out because of how hard it is to group up for them. An issue that literally every raider runs into is finding a consistent group of 9 other players to run with. This is inherent to -every- group that I've been in, however, static or not. Time, expected skill level, KP, someone can't show up - they all add additional layers of ugh to the grouping process. I feel like GW2 has been very successful in alleviating major annoyances that plague other MMO's. Honestly, I feel like there has to be a way to remedy the time-consuming task of grouping up for raids while at the same time making them more accessible for all players, regardless of how much time they have or their skill level.

    The idea of a raid queue has been brought up several times on the forum and I find it interesting. The anonymous nature of a raid queue combined with a sort of -hotjoin- grouping experience would undoubtedly throw a lot more players toward raid content. This would be a very good thing, in my opinion. The main issue with a raid queue would be defining profession roles and team roles since some bosses have niche mechanics but I think this can be managed via the community. A raid queue could also diminish the social aspects that draw many players toward this type of content. Even still, I'm on the side of having a raid queue of some sort. The ability to log into the game, press a single button to play my preferred role and be in fighting a raid boss along side other heroes within minutes (hopefully?) - now that would be something. Now I can taste the boss mechanics in a 10 man setting with a roughly settled team comp. If someone has to leave, the queue has someone lined up for us already and we're {hopefully?} back in learning mechanics within minutes. This would be a dream come true. I wouldn't even care if we couldn't down a boss after 20 tries - just let me throw myself at the content repeatedly so I can learn alongside others who want to do the same. Please Anet!

    *TL, DR: Add a Raid Queue with Team Roles built-in so us nubs can bash our face against raid bosses in an efficient manner.

    This idea is still incredibly bad for group content that requires organisation. Every game that has it only uses it on an extremly dumbed down version of the instance that is also missing mechanics that requires organisation.
    It doesn't work on raids. People want to kill the bosses eventually and this system will never let them. So they come to the forums and complain the content is too hard.
    You are an really really small minority if you want to wipe all the time with randoms on bosses.

    Most people in this forum and reddit alike overestimate (or explicitly play up) the amount of "organization" raids in GW2 require compared to other MMOs. Our raids are absolutely stellar in design precisely because the mechanics are intuitive enough and the roles are flexible enough (everything has always gotten cleared in day 1 and Anet never said a word about any mechanics). A queue would not immediately change the population make up and you'd still be getting matched to players who more or less know what the key roles are, just as if you joined a LFG 250+ LI run. With kicks still being enabled it would be even easier to simply have people constantly joining in your squad until you get someone who knows/wants to do what you want. We have no raids that require more than very basic markers and assignments organization, nothing has an extremely short window and even backups can be assigned for absolutely most mechanics. We already play the "dumbed down" versions, though I think that term doesn't do justice to how fun it is.

    Now, that doesn't mean I think a queue is a good idea, but the reason is another altogether: the actual issue with a queue is that the social aspect is part of game mode. The time you spend waiting up and chatting up people is not only relevant, it is also valuable to build raiding as a separate game mode, regardless of whether or not you "just wanted to get on with it". It's an integral part of playing it just like being inside a locker room with people you may or may not like is an integral part of playing field sports. There is no getting around this and the mode will lose its identity the moment you remove the necessity for more meaningful social interactions. Waiting for a PvP queue for example also has its unique social aspect which brings the mode more flavor, to the point that I doubt people queue from outside the Mists very often even if this option is now available. When people complain about waiting several minutes to form a group or that their friends can't always be there on the static day, etc. they should realize they're actually already raiding in a sense.

  • @maxwelgm.4315 said:

    Most people in this forum and reddit alike overestimate (or explicitly play up) the amount of "organization" raids in GW2 require compared to other MMOs. Our raids are absolutely stellar in design precisely because the mechanics are intuitive enough and the roles are flexible enough (everything has always gotten cleared in day 1 and Anet never said a word about any mechanics). A queue would not immediately change the population make up and you'd still be getting matched to players who more or less know what the key roles are, just as if you joined a LFG 250+ LI run. With kicks still being enabled it would be even easier to simply have people constantly joining in your squad until you get someone who knows/wants to do what you want. We have no raids that require more than very basic markers and assignments organization, nothing has an extremely short window and even backups can be assigned for absolutely most mechanics. We already play the "dumbed down" versions, though I think that term doesn't do justice to how fun it is.

    Now, that doesn't mean I think a queue is a good idea, but the reason is another altogether: the actual issue with a queue is that the social aspect is part of game mode. The time you spend waiting up and chatting up people is not only relevant, it is also valuable to build raiding as a separate game mode, regardless of whether or not you "just wanted to get on with it". It's an integral part of playing it just like being inside a locker room with people you may or may not like is an integral part of playing field sports. There is no getting around this and the mode will lose its identity the moment you remove the necessity for more meaningful social interactions. Waiting for a PvP queue for example also has its unique social aspect which brings the mode more flavor, to the point that I doubt people queue from outside the Mists very often even if this option is now available. When people complain about waiting several minutes to form a group or that their friends can't always be there on the static day, etc. they should realize they're actually already raiding in a sense.

    A majority of my groups consist of raiding for 3-4 pulls before someone has to bail (40 minutes to get the team together, we're honestly pretty sick of chatting at that point.) Then we wait another 5-10 minutes, I run through the process of explaining mechanics again ect. This is literally every time that I want to dive into this content and I know this is true for many people. When you do this waiting daily because you're earnest about learning the bosses it's just a turn off. A queue may not be the answer but there has to be some way to funnel like-minded players toward this content in a more efficient manner than the LFG.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zagerus.8675 said:

    @maxwelgm.4315 said:

    Most people in this forum and reddit alike overestimate (or explicitly play up) the amount of "organization" raids in GW2 require compared to other MMOs. Our raids are absolutely stellar in design precisely because the mechanics are intuitive enough and the roles are flexible enough (everything has always gotten cleared in day 1 and Anet never said a word about any mechanics). A queue would not immediately change the population make up and you'd still be getting matched to players who more or less know what the key roles are, just as if you joined a LFG 250+ LI run. With kicks still being enabled it would be even easier to simply have people constantly joining in your squad until you get someone who knows/wants to do what you want. We have no raids that require more than very basic markers and assignments organization, nothing has an extremely short window and even backups can be assigned for absolutely most mechanics. We already play the "dumbed down" versions, though I think that term doesn't do justice to how fun it is.

    Now, that doesn't mean I think a queue is a good idea, but the reason is another altogether: the actual issue with a queue is that the social aspect is part of game mode. The time you spend waiting up and chatting up people is not only relevant, it is also valuable to build raiding as a separate game mode, regardless of whether or not you "just wanted to get on with it". It's an integral part of playing it just like being inside a locker room with people you may or may not like is an integral part of playing field sports. There is no getting around this and the mode will lose its identity the moment you remove the necessity for more meaningful social interactions. Waiting for a PvP queue for example also has its unique social aspect which brings the mode more flavor, to the point that I doubt people queue from outside the Mists very often even if this option is now available. When people complain about waiting several minutes to form a group or that their friends can't always be there on the static day, etc. they should realize they're actually already raiding in a sense.

    A majority of my groups consist of raiding for 3-4 pulls before someone has to bail (40 minutes to get the team together, we're honestly pretty sick of chatting at that point.) Then we wait another 5-10 minutes, I run through the process of explaining mechanics again ect. This is literally every time that I want to dive into this content and I know this is true for many people. When you do this waiting daily because you're earnest about learning the bosses it's just a turn off. A queue may not be the answer but there has to be some way to funnel like-minded players toward this content in a more efficient manner than the LFG.

    Frustrating yes, now imagine if you could cut out the part where you wait and maybe even get people to give friendly and useful advice. Wouldn't that be amazing and a lot more fun?

    There is a reason why experienced raiders (myself included) keep telling people to find a nice guild that offers raid training.

  • @sigur.9453 said:
    its called (raid training) guild.

    I don't disagree with you but I still would love to see some sort of automated grouping mechanism for raids in the game itself so I can be lazy. In the meantime I've actually taken the initiative and made a roster-only guild for people who are interested in pugging/training fractal CM's and raids. Let me know if you're interested.

  • Miellyn.6847Miellyn.6847 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 19, 2018

    @maxwelgm.4315 said:

    @Miellyn.6847 said:

    @Zagerus.8675 said:
    So, it's no secret that raids consist of some of the best and most epic content that GW2 has to offer. It's also no secret that a good portion of the community is sort of alienated from this content for one reason or another. For how good raids are, I think way too many people are missing out because of how hard it is to group up for them. An issue that literally every raider runs into is finding a consistent group of 9 other players to run with. This is inherent to -every- group that I've been in, however, static or not. Time, expected skill level, KP, someone can't show up - they all add additional layers of ugh to the grouping process. I feel like GW2 has been very successful in alleviating major annoyances that plague other MMO's. Honestly, I feel like there has to be a way to remedy the time-consuming task of grouping up for raids while at the same time making them more accessible for all players, regardless of how much time they have or their skill level.

    The idea of a raid queue has been brought up several times on the forum and I find it interesting. The anonymous nature of a raid queue combined with a sort of -hotjoin- grouping experience would undoubtedly throw a lot more players toward raid content. This would be a very good thing, in my opinion. The main issue with a raid queue would be defining profession roles and team roles since some bosses have niche mechanics but I think this can be managed via the community. A raid queue could also diminish the social aspects that draw many players toward this type of content. Even still, I'm on the side of having a raid queue of some sort. The ability to log into the game, press a single button to play my preferred role and be in fighting a raid boss along side other heroes within minutes (hopefully?) - now that would be something. Now I can taste the boss mechanics in a 10 man setting with a roughly settled team comp. If someone has to leave, the queue has someone lined up for us already and we're {hopefully?} back in learning mechanics within minutes. This would be a dream come true. I wouldn't even care if we couldn't down a boss after 20 tries - just let me throw myself at the content repeatedly so I can learn alongside others who want to do the same. Please Anet!

    *TL, DR: Add a Raid Queue with Team Roles built-in so us nubs can bash our face against raid bosses in an efficient manner.

    This idea is still incredibly bad for group content that requires organisation. Every game that has it only uses it on an extremly dumbed down version of the instance that is also missing mechanics that requires organisation.
    It doesn't work on raids. People want to kill the bosses eventually and this system will never let them. So they come to the forums and complain the content is too hard.
    You are an really really small minority if you want to wipe all the time with randoms on bosses.

    Most people in this forum and reddit alike overestimate (or explicitly play up) the amount of "organization" raids in GW2 require compared to other MMOs. Our raids are absolutely stellar in design precisely because the mechanics are intuitive enough and the roles are flexible enough (everything has always gotten cleared in day 1 and Anet never said a word about any mechanics). A queue would not immediately change the population make up and you'd still be getting matched to players who more or less know what the key roles are, just as if you joined a LFG 250+ LI run. With kicks still being enabled it would be even easier to simply have people constantly joining in your squad until you get someone who knows/wants to do what you want. We have no raids that require more than very basic markers and assignments organization, nothing has an extremely short window and even backups can be assigned for absolutely most mechanics. We already play the "dumbed down" versions, though I think that term doesn't do justice to how fun it is.

    Now, that doesn't mean I think a queue is a good idea, but the reason is another altogether: the actual issue with a queue is that the social aspect is part of game mode. The time you spend waiting up and chatting up people is not only relevant, it is also valuable to build raiding as a separate game mode, regardless of whether or not you "just wanted to get on with it". It's an integral part of playing it just like being inside a locker room with people you may or may not like is an integral part of playing field sports. There is no getting around this and the mode will lose its identity the moment you remove the necessity for more meaningful social interactions. Waiting for a PvP queue for example also has its unique social aspect which brings the mode more flavor, to the point that I doubt people queue from outside the Mists very often even if this option is now available. When people complain about waiting several minutes to form a group or that their friends can't always be there on the static day, etc. they should realize they're actually already raiding in a sense.

    You need also different builds for different encounters (Deimos, Dhuum, Desmina). You can't check for that in a LFG tool outside of very specific things but most players don't want to do that tasks anyway so it would take ages to fill those wings. So either those mechanics don't matter or remove them completely (which also limits design for future encounters).
    You don't have all skills all the time like all the other MMOs that actually have this feature. Either you build all encounters around being able to be beaten with any build which limits the encounter design or nerf mechanics into oblivion so people don't even know they exist. This tool doesn't work in GW2.

    @Zagerus.8675 said:

    @sigur.9453 said:
    its called (raid training) guild.

    I don't disagree with you but I still would love to see some sort of automated grouping mechanism for raids in the game itself so I can be lazy.

    It won't work and this reason is just one more to never implement it.

  • I cant imagine how this would work when needed specific people to do mechanics. How would you request w5 druid pusher who can also kite green on dhuum.

    The system would have to have options for requesting every single mechanic in game, while also having the ability to select multiple mechanics, but not ones that conflict (druid and dps), while also requiring the person joining to have opted in to all specific needed mechanics...

    Not to mention adding kp requirements so you dont get a druid who first time and has no idea how to push.

    I think the method we have now is alot more simple.

  • sigur.9453sigur.9453 Member ✭✭✭

    @Zagerus.8675 said:

    @sigur.9453 said:
    its called (raid training) guild.

    I don't disagree with you but I still would love to see some sort of automated grouping mechanism for raids in the game itself so I can be lazy. In the meantime I've actually taken the initiative and made a roster-only guild for people who are interested in pugging/training fractal CM's and raids. Let me know if you're interested.

    nice, gl with that. your EU or NA? may sometimes willing to help out.

  • polvere.2805polvere.2805 Member ✭✭✭

    Thread no. 918371 on raid matchmaking

    You said nothing more and nothing less than what already has been said on the subject.
    It won't be implemented, and if for some obscure reason anet implemented it, it won't be used. Veterans won't use it, new player will use it bad resulting in clownfiestas.

    Btw nothing stops you from opening an LFG group and saying "newbz only, we kill bosses by trial and error"

  • Clyan.1593Clyan.1593 Member ✭✭✭

    they could just add an automated lfg for noobs and pros.
    It will be abused a bit, I know, but in it's current state it's mostly a mess and a lot of people hate the "show LI KP make this do that blabla" lfg descriptions.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭

    You still won't solve the issue with the adjustment of mechanics to roles a.k.a. what tank?, who pushes?, can tank change? (for example in case of w1 when you head over from gorse to sab), is the druid able to push and kite + greens in w5? etc.

  • Talindra.4958Talindra.4958 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Well, I do think theres room for improvement to our current LFG system and help players to form group easier with less frustration. At the moment, our lfg system is the simplest.. it leaves forming group open to how players like to make their group.
    I think if we have a lfg system that can allow players to select and list required prof, roles, min requirements such as gear, experience (eg kill counts), build and etc that they are looking for and allow other players to join pre-select role with auto ingame check and join.. it should make grouping experience better especially for raid.. I believe a good LFG system create better game community.

    Death is Energy [DIE] in EU
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  • Players do not join raids because the whole community of GW 2 is stuck to the crappy meta builds, they are efficient and synergise and make things easier, and because of that we get content locked to us(non meta builds), the funny thing is, most of the people i talk to to say i have trouble finding a raid group, they say it aint hard, its easy and acessible, BUT IT IS NOT, if u aint meta people do not take you, new players are locked from raids because everybody wants pro groups and meta builds..., and yea i could start my own raid group but half the people that are new players are scared to go into it, because the community is asking stupid demands just to get perfect runs, like the crappy meta for the danm t4 fractals wich make no sense... we getting to a point where players lvl up their character, play the game try to gear, get some ascended, do a few t4s cuz everything is impossible for us to get in, and its not like new player will try to make the groups, top community instead of helping you guys allienated this whole kitten to feel like content is locked because we dont play meta...

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Hugedeal.5426 said:
    Players do not join raids because the whole community of GW 2 is stuck to the crappy meta builds, they are efficient and synergise and make things easier, and because of that we get content locked to us(non meta builds), the funny thing is, most of the people i talk to to say i have trouble finding a raid group, they say it aint hard, its easy and acessible, BUT IT IS NOT, if u aint meta people do not take you, new players are locked from raids because everybody wants pro groups and meta builds..., and yea i could start my own raid group but half the people that are new players are scared to go into it, because the community is asking stupid demands just to get perfect runs, like the crappy meta for the danm t4 fractals wich make no sense... we getting to a point where players lvl up their character, play the game try to gear, get some ascended, do a few t4s cuz everything is impossible for us to get in, and its not like new player will try to make the groups, top community instead of helping you guys allienated this whole kitten to feel like content is locked because we dont play meta...

    Why cant new player start groups and learn together?
    Like everyone else did in the past mate.

  • Because new players are scared, they dont have the wits or willing to do to start something they have the need to have experienced players around, i've tried...

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Hugedeal.5426 said:
    Players do not join raids because the whole community of GW 2 is stuck to the crappy meta builds, they are efficient and synergise and make things easier, and because of that we get content locked to us(non meta builds), the funny thing is, most of the people i talk to to say i have trouble finding a raid group, they say it aint hard, its easy and acessible, BUT IT IS NOT, if u aint meta people do not take you, new players are locked from raids because everybody wants pro groups and meta builds..., and yea i could start my own raid group but half the people that are new players are scared to go into it, because the community is asking stupid demands just to get perfect runs, like the crappy meta for the danm t4 fractals wich make no sense... we getting to a point where players lvl up their character, play the game try to gear, get some ascended, do a few t4s cuz everything is impossible for us to get in, and its not like new player will try to make the groups, top community instead of helping you guys allienated this whole kitten to feel like content is locked because we dont play meta...

    My dear, I joined a non-meta, non-requirement T4 fractal group yesterday (and lots of in the past) and it was working fine besides the usual disaster on ooze in Thaumanova. There are some other T4 fracs that are harder for casual players but the majority can be done with little common sense and spending more time. Really, most of the casual players I've carried through T4s with friends/other experienced players don't even know how much of a burden they were in the runs!

    You are not locked from raids, your attitude is locking you out. While you can succeed with your preferred gear in every other content in the game, you usually can't (exceptions are there if you are skilled enough) in raids.
    Raids are meant to be hard, developed for well organized groups to have a challenge in this game because everything else is too or very easy for this part of the community. It's no shame if you and others do not feel the same for other content as well but that's on you and you can't blame skilled/good players for that.
    I advice you to play how you want but if you want to raid just start to gear one appropriate class you can or you think you'll be able to play fine and start looking for raid trainings, raid training discords & communities. You'll find help there and with a little bit of practice you'll kill your first bosses. Once that is done you'll see it's not the big deal you are making here.
    Hint, if you play T4s regularly or some days per week: Save the money and start to craft ascended weapons + armor to gear an additional class. Fractals give good money (liquig gold + mats you can sell) and you also have a chance of getting asc chests as well.

  • Hugedeal.5426Hugedeal.5426 Member ✭✭
    edited December 29, 2018

    Thx for the reply, tbh i feel like gw 2 content the ay it is shown is not friendly to new players specially due to the alianation of the meta builds, i apreciate for all the replies i think ima just move to ff 14, at least the raiing in there follows the same as wow... i'll have an easier time there i guess, gl and ty :d.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Usually really raids are not content for new players. New players start with leveling their first class to lvl 80. While they do that they play the story (later on living story), exploring Tyria, maybe have their first experience in dungeons, level masteries, try out gliding, try out mounts, try out HoT metas etc. Before they reach endgame instanced content like raids they usually step into fractals. From there on you make your way through to T4s and after all raids are the final stage. Of course you can skip a lot of the mentioned stuff and head straight for raids but that's not the common way. If you do you should prepare yourself properly and get the idea of endgame group content.

  • @Hugedeal.5426 said:
    Players do not join raids because the whole community of GW 2 is stuck to the crappy meta builds, they are efficient and synergise and make things easier, and because of that we get content locked to us(non meta builds), the funny thing is, most of the people i talk to to say i have trouble finding a raid group, they say it aint hard, its easy and acessible, BUT IT IS NOT, if u aint meta people do not take you, new players are locked from raids because everybody wants pro groups and meta builds..., and yea i could start my own raid group but half the people that are new players are scared to go into it, because the community is asking stupid demands just to get perfect runs, like the crappy meta for the danm t4 fractals wich make no sense... we getting to a point where players lvl up their character, play the game try to gear, get some ascended, do a few t4s cuz everything is impossible for us to get in, and its not like new player will try to make the groups, top community instead of helping you guys allienated this whole kitten to feel like content is locked because we dont play meta...

    Weird ive been playing a non meta engie build (no kit) for months and never had a problem getting into groups.
    I do have plenty LI and KP which is a different issue to the meta.

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