Training Raids with toxic commanders...

Hi there little Raiding community

As the title suggests I'm quite new to raids, I'm in for one and a half week now.So far I had mostly positive experiences, as a main harrier druid and a pdps thief alt I am welcome to many squads and can bring some real value to the party.Most encounters I've had so far (VG, gorse, sab, sloth, trio, mat, escort, KC, cairn, mursaat and samarog) went very good and I killed all of them at least once.

However in some of them the leading person is either toxic or a total noob himself.I've seen coms that ignore group compositions totally and then go mad because the encounter doesn't work out,coms that give me roles not fitting the class I play or coms that kicked me after 2 failed attempts despite the fact it's a training raid.

I don't know how you see it, but I don't think the encounters are mechanically ultra complicated, there are videos for everythingand from what I have seen so far all of them are explained very good. So I doubt I'm too stupid for it. Neither am I newto the game itself (16k AP).

Honestly a training run should be more than just writing in the LFG "know the mechs" and then leeroy the boss and thus getting mad.If you decide to train others then takes some responsibility in actually explaining stuff.

So if you are a noob commander doing trainings, acting like a wannabe pro, making childish decisions or simply kick peoplefor no better reason than your impatience - PLEASE get lost, you're ruining the mentality, teach wrong strategies and destroy theenthusiasm of those who want to improve and get into raids. This community is already too small, so just stop.

Thank you

PS: Examples: VG without any chrono at all, tanking without getting onto the correct platform, assigning wrong people to take greens. Or SAB without explaining to the group where to stack in order to trigger the firewall in the correct spot. And so on...

Try to remember that commanders are human, too. They are about as prone to overestimating their own abilities, not only as a player but especially as a leader, as any other person in any given squad. They might consider themself to be far more knowledgable than they actually are. They might happen to have had a bad day which turns them more grumpy than usual and makes their patience run much shorter than it normally would. This of course has no effect on a perfect leader in a perfect world but our world never is for some reason.Not sure if it is necessary to go on rant like this if these cases are actually rare. Anyone who has commanded training groups would be able to go on their own long rant about the many wannabe raiders they have met and the many issues they have had. You sometimes have to take the good with the bad and having a passable training group commander is still better than having none.

not trying to offend anyone, but why we need a thread for every bad expierience someone expierienced?needless to say that this here will not help these "bad commanders" anyway. you wont change ones mentality by creating a forum post. tell them in ingame chat if you really feel to, but that wont change the result (none) either. block and move on.

if you find the next group you join having similar issue, then you might want to see if the root cause of the disagreement or clashes.tbh. 1 week exp in raids cleared one boss is equal to near no experience. unless you practiced for 5 weeks 10 hours every week and cleared all bosses once. with 1.5 week experience, are we talking about 10 hours a day for everyday 1.5week? I believe experience wise, the commander should have better experience than any newbie he is trying to help. if you get all that kill with him in few runs for each boss, then maybe need to go back to see why you were kick and what was wrong. and could it be better if you were listening to him better? If I command and the people do not want to listen and do not want to cooperate, I will remove him from the group so to make life easier for myself and others too. also I hate people only care to leech kill for one objective for themselves.. there are many like that from my experience.No hard feelings in this post I am just replying and I admit I do not know the entire situation better. but I also believe it should be a private matter we wont go further. :) Hope you find a nice group that fit your play style

@Talindra.4958 said:if you find the next group you join having similar issue, then you might want to see if the root cause of the disagreement or clashes.tbh. 1 week exp in raids cleared one boss is equal to near no experience. unless you practiced for 5 weeks 10 hours every week and cleared all bosses once. with 1.5 week experience, are we talking about 10 hours a day for everyday 1.5week? I believe experience wise, the commander should have better experience than any newbie he is trying to help. if you get all that kill with him in few runs for each boss, then maybe need to go back to see why you were kick and what was wrong. and could it be better if you were listening to him better? If I command and the people do not want to listen and do not want to cooperate, I will remove him from the group so to make life easier for myself and others too. also I hate people only care to leech kill for one objective for themselves.. there are many like that from my experience.No hard feelings in this post I am just replying and I admit I do not know the entire situation better. but I also believe it should be a private matter we wont go further. :) Hope you find a nice group that fit your play style

As I said most encounters I've had went good, and I have killed some of them already 4 times. I just gave an example of which bosses I did AT LEAST once.I don't need to talk myself into the idea that a kick always is justifiable. Some of these coms simply have no patience. The one that kicked me didn't even tell me what I did wrong (because I did nothing wrong, but was the only guy not in his guild and therefor someone had to be blamed). He also had a discord and refused to invite me to it, so I couldn't hear what he was saying. And no, he didn't write anything in chat. Don't get me wrong, I make mistakes too, but that kick was just random madness of that com, he was angry because the run was crazy uncoordinated, his tank was unable to kite the boss correctly and so on.

@"sigur.9453" said:not trying to offend anyone, but why we need a thread for every bad expierience someone expierienced?needless to say that this here will not help these "bad commanders" anyway. you wont change ones mentality by creating a forum post. tell them in ingame chat if you really feel to, but that wont change the result (none) either. block and move on.

I'm not trying to offend you either, but1) threads don't take up much server space I think and since it's not your server it is none of your concern2) uninteresting threads will die out pretty fast3) This is the raid channel and I posted something concerning raids4) Yes it is very needed to address this since as I and many other already said the community is too small5) I believe in the good of every person, so I personally think that some of these bad coms (or maybe future coms) actually might change their ways6) Getting kicked usually goes with being blocked too, so there is no way I could have confronted the com (I actually tried)

sounds like you joined random group from lfg system? If yes then yeah expect some bullies and bad treatments.. :p I pug my raid since start so I have had many exp.. good and bad.Not sute if you are aware.. in snowcrow website there's page where they recommend training guilds for NA and EU. Join the recommend discort and sign up for training schedule .. .. I have came across some training guild when I join pug and training commanders are very professional making sure he/she is trying their best to help. I didn't mind to stay and help out too.

Try this..https://snowcrows.com/raids/training/

Others in the forum here might be able to help with more up to date recommendation

@Talindra.4958 said:sounds like you joined random group from lfg system? If yes then yeah expect some bullies and bad treatments.. :p I pug my raid since start so I have had many exp.. good and bad.Not sute if you are aware.. in snowcrow website there's page where they recommend training guilds for NA and EU. Join the recommend discort and sign up for training schedule .. .. I have came across some training guild when I join pug and training commanders are very professional making sure he/she is trying their best to help. I didn't mind to stay and help out too.

Thanks for the advice, i will check it out.Yes it was a random lfg group. At least for me. I think 8 of them were from the same guild as the commander. The other random guy was baffled about the strategies and uncoordinated mess just like me.

@Clyan.1593 said:

@Talindra.4958 said:sounds like you joined random group from lfg system? If yes then yeah expect some bullies and bad treatments.. :p I pug my raid since start so I have had many exp.. good and bad.Not sute if you are aware.. in snowcrow website there's page where they recommend training guilds for NA and EU. Join the recommend discort and sign up for training schedule .. .. I have came across some training guild when I join pug and training commanders are very professional making sure he/she is trying their best to help. I didn't mind to stay and help out too.

Nah random group are not there to help you.. They want to get the kill done for their group so yeah.. If you want better experience definitely join a proper training group. I done the hardway myself because I have no other choice as I couldn't play the game at server peak hours.Good luck BTW and don't let these ppl ruin your raid experience :)

@Clyan.1593 said:Hi there little Raiding community

As the title suggests I'm quite new to raids, I'm in for one and a half week now.So far I had mostly positive experiences, as a main harrier druid and a pdps thief alt I am welcome to many squads and can bring some real value to the party.Most encounters I've had so far (VG, gorse, sab, sloth, trio, mat, escort, KC, cairn, mursaat and samarog) went very good and I killed all of them at least once.

First off, congratulations. You have managed to full clear W1-4 in less than 2 weeks. Some forum regulars here who have been moaning about raid difficulty haven't managed this in over 2 years. It's nice to sometimes get first hand experiences from people new to raids, after all, if one goes by the forum drama all raiders are toxic elitists.

@Clyan.1593 said:However in some of them the leading person is either toxic or a total noob himself.I've seen coms that ignore group compositions totally and then go mad because the encounter doesn't work out,coms that give me roles not fitting the class I play or coms that kicked me after 2 failed attempts despite the fact it's a training raid.

That's the reason why I always recommend people join guilds and training servers. It's a lot more fun when you practice with a group of people. Toxicity is also way lower.

Remember though that even commanders are only human. Different commanders have different experiences. Also sometimes a commander might know a strategy which is not well suited for practice raids but they lack the knowledge and experience to adapt the run. It happens.

@Clyan.1593 said:I don't know how you see it, but I don't think the encounters are mechanically ultra complicated, there are videos for everythingand from what I have seen so far all of them are explained very good. So I doubt I'm too stupid for it. Neither am I newto the game itself (16k AP).

None of the encounters are over complicated, especially wing 1-4. Most are actually quite well made and designed. The low skill level across the player base is what makes people believe this content is way to difficult. That is certain disabilities or age aside. People at 30 (I'm mid 30 myself), 40, 50 and 60+ will all have different reflexes and adaptability. I know that a 15-20 year old will vastly outperform me in both action per minute as well as learning a new class, to believe otherwise is foolish.

@Clyan.1593 said:Honestly a training run should be more than just writing in the LFG "know the mechs" and then leeroy the boss and thus getting mad.If you decide to train others then takes some responsibility in actually explaining stuff.

It's the best you can hope for when joining PUG training runs. I'm actually glad people are even going and doing this. I still would recommend to any one to join a friendly guild. There are tons going around.

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Clyan.1593 said:Hi there little Raiding community

As the title suggests I'm quite new to raids, I'm in for one and a half week now.So far I had mostly positive experiences, as a main harrier druid and a pdps thief alt I am welcome to many squads and can bring some real value to the party.Most encounters I've had so far (VG, gorse, sab, sloth, trio, mat, escort, KC, cairn, mursaat and samarog) went very good and I killed all of them at least once.

@Clyan.1593 said:However in some of them the leading person is either toxic or a total noob himself.I've seen coms that ignore group compositions totally and then go mad because the encounter doesn't work out,coms that give me roles not fitting the class I play or coms that kicked me after 2 failed attempts despite the fact it's a training raid.

@Clyan.1593 said:I don't know how you see it, but I don't think the encounters are mechanically ultra complicated, there are videos for everythingand from what I have seen so far all of them are explained very good. So I doubt I'm too stupid for it. Neither am I newto the game itself (16k AP).

@Clyan.1593 said:Honestly a training run should be more than just writing in the LFG "know the mechs" and then leeroy the boss and thus getting mad.If you decide to train others then takes some responsibility in actually explaining stuff.

Hi there, thx in advance but it's not a full clear, Xera and Deimos are missing.And I'm 32 btw, so I can totally understand what you said about reflexes and adaptability.I have started going from adapting to memorizing because of it. I won't be good in random pugs, but as it is now I have to train with them until I got the LI and experience to join better groups.

@Clyan.1593 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Clyan.1593 said:Hi there little Raiding community

As the title suggests I'm quite new to raids, I'm in for one and a half week now.So far I had mostly positive experiences, as a main harrier druid and a pdps thief alt I am welcome to many squads and can bring some real value to the party.Most encounters I've had so far (VG, gorse, sab, sloth, trio, mat, escort, KC, cairn, mursaat and samarog) went very good and I killed all of them at least once.

@Clyan.1593 said:However in some of them the leading person is either toxic or a total noob himself.I've seen coms that ignore group compositions totally and then go mad because the encounter doesn't work out,coms that give me roles not fitting the class I play or coms that kicked me after 2 failed attempts despite the fact it's a training raid.

@Clyan.1593 said:I don't know how you see it, but I don't think the encounters are mechanically ultra complicated, there are videos for everythingand from what I have seen so far all of them are explained very good. So I doubt I'm too stupid for it. Neither am I newto the game itself (16k AP).

@Clyan.1593 said:Honestly a training run should be more than just writing in the LFG "know the mechs" and then leeroy the boss and thus getting mad.If you decide to train others then takes some responsibility in actually explaining stuff.

Ups, I meant to write almost full clear. Must have gone down in the editing. Still great progress for 2 weeks.

Xera has gotten a bit tougher with recent chrono changes and people (especially tanks) now need to know her patterns way longer which makes the entire fight more dangerous.

Deimos should be easy enough, people in PUG groups have been running ranged strats on him for a long time. The most difficult thing about Deimos is getting a tank, black kiter and hand kiter who are in the mood to do the fight.

@Clyan.1593 said:

@"sigur.9453" said:not trying to offend anyone, but why we need a thread for every bad expierience someone expierienced?needless to say that this here will not help these "bad commanders" anyway. you wont change ones mentality by creating a forum post. tell them in ingame chat if you really feel to, but that wont change the result (none) either. block and move on.

1) my only concern is that thread is missing a clear purpose other than "blogging" you expierience.2) ok3) you posted something concerning Clyan in an isolated raid expierience, there is a difference.4) i don´t see the connection between a small community and bad isolated commanders,sry. there are a lot of good training commies out there.5)i will not challenge your believes here or deny your good intentions,but my expierence tells me something different.6)see my first post, you would´t have changed that persons behavour anyway. best case you would get a feedback why you were kicked.

to avoid such isolated expieriences, join a guild, raid with friends. as others already have said.

@sigur.9453 said:

@Clyan.1593 said:

@sigur.9453 said:not trying to offend anyone, but why we need a thread for every bad expierience someone expierienced?needless to say that this here will not help these "bad commanders" anyway. you wont change ones mentality by creating a forum post. tell them in ingame chat if you really feel to, but that wont change the result (none) either. block and move on.

1) this thread isn't missing any purpose, you are.2) ok3) it's not an individual experience, it's an experience the whole squad has, considering the nature of raids, everything in it is isolated4) of course there are, yet the bad coms still exist. should i just act like they don't?5) your experience with what? my intentions? you don't have any6) maybe, however by this philosophy the french revolution would have never happened and its citizens today'd be still suffering from a selfish monarch.point is, just because something seems to be pointless doesn't mean I shouldn't hope for a better outcome.

@Clyan.1593 said:

@sigur.9453 said:

@Clyan.1593 said:

@sigur.9453 said:not trying to offend anyone, but why we need a thread for every bad expierience someone expierienced?needless to say that this here will not help these "bad commanders" anyway. you wont change ones mentality by creating a forum post. tell them in ingame chat if you really feel to, but that wont change the result (none) either. block and move on.

just keep on fighting for the good cause.right now this thread is the first on when one is opening the raid/fractal part of the forum (my fault at this moment). the second one is "raiding is destroying the community". this is surly helping new players that want to inform themself about raids and will get them some extra motivation to start with that content.

@sigur.9453 said:

@Clyan.1593 said:

@sigur.9453 said:

@Clyan.1593 said:

@sigur.9453 said:not trying to offend anyone, but why we need a thread for every bad expierience someone expierienced?needless to say that this here will not help these "bad commanders" anyway. you wont change ones mentality by creating a forum post. tell them in ingame chat if you really feel to, but that wont change the result (none) either. block and move on.

Sorry man, I'm trying to point out a problem.It is well known that Forums consist more of complaints than anything else.Go check the Overwatch forum, then we talk again about howthis forum is a bad place to go to inform yourself.

Just about every raid "training" group I ever looked at had a large number of raid sellers just you know..."hanging around".Behavior like this would be an integral part of the show around it. Put "trainees" in a frustrating toxic environment so they quit and want to buy a clear just to get it over with.

You should have expected it, really.

@"mindcircus.1506" said:Just about every raid "training" group I ever looked at had a large number of raid sellers just you know..."hanging around".Behavior like this would be an integral part of the show around it. Put "trainees" in a frustrating toxic environment so they quit and want to buy a clear just to get it over with.

You should have expected it, really.

Mindcircus with the 2018 raid conspiracy theory here. lolI mean, I don't know. Their prices are rediculous. I'd never pay 300-400 mystic coins for a run or whatever.

@"mindcircus.1506" said:Just about every raid "training" group I ever looked at had a large number of raid sellers just you know..."hanging around".Behavior like this would be an integral part of the show around it. Put "trainees" in a frustrating toxic environment so they quit and want to buy a clear just to get it over with.

You should have expected it, really.

THIS would ned an extra thread honestly. content.

@Clyan.1593 said:

@"mindcircus.1506" said:Just about every raid "training" group I ever looked at had a large number of raid sellers just you know..."hanging around".Behavior like this would be an integral part of the show around it. Put "trainees" in a frustrating toxic environment so they quit and want to buy a clear just to get it over with.

You should have expected it, really.

So you are saying that it sounds far-fetched?"Training" guilds/groups are exactly where raid sellers want to be. That is their market. It's a constant supply of fresh potential customers. This isn't conspiracy. This is fact. Sometimes the higher profile sellers are even officers in these guilds.Not being part of these training guilds would be silly for a raid seller.

In your original post, you describe a situation where the comm of your training raid specifically put people in the wrong places and did little to assure the kill. From your description, the comm purposefully sabotaged the group's chance of success and made the experience as negative as possible. This does nothing but increase the perceived value of the service being offered.

You can make all the tin-foil hat comments you want, I'm not the one who fell for it.

I do get the thought behind this thread, but it is also a fact that you and I and the other people here cannot forcefully change other people's behaviour, mood or the way you interpret their actions.

@mindcircus.1506 said:

@Clyan.1593 said:

@mindcircus.1506 said:Just about every raid "training" group I ever looked at had a large number of raid sellers just you know..."hanging around".Behavior like this would be an integral part of the show around it. Put "trainees" in a frustrating toxic environment so they quit and want to buy a clear just to get it over with.

You should have expected it, really.

I'm not saying it's not possible, just I find it very unlikely.The very fact that I DID kill almost every raid boss (W1-4) within less than 2 weeks makes your idea... well... sound like a conspiracy theory.

@mindcircus.1506 said:

@Clyan.1593 said:

@mindcircus.1506 said:Just about every raid "training" group I ever looked at had a large number of raid sellers just you know..."hanging around".Behavior like this would be an integral part of the show around it. Put "trainees" in a frustrating toxic environment so they quit and want to buy a clear just to get it over with.

You should have expected it, really.

1. They have enough buyers. You just have to check some twitch channels to realize that they don't need to sabotage.
2. Lots of them are very friendly players, some of them, like I mentioned, streamers, some even with an Anet partnership. They would sabotage their own business.
3. I've never met someone sabotaging a run since over a year now. The last one who did this was kicked by the commander after the 2nd try when we found out. There's not really much you can hide from others so either you suck hard in dps'ing or miss a mechanic resulting in a kick because it's more than obvious.

I know there are trolls around like in every game but it's way too time consuming and boring to hang out in training runs for hours and making a profit out of it.

@Clyan.1593 said:PS: Examples: VG without any chrono at all, tanking without getting onto the correct platform, assigning wrong people to take greens. Or SAB without explaining to the group where to stack in order to trigger the firewall in the correct spot. And so on...

You're complaining about training raids....

Come on man. Not every training raid is gonna have the ideal comp. Let alone having Chrono's on demand for your version of a good comp. People can tank with literally anything and the timers are so generous on that fight that the ideal comp isn't remotely required especially for learning/training.