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Divine intervention (spoilers)


Daniel Handler.4816

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I realise the Gods' departure is an attempt to remove a literal deus ex machina, but the reasoning is terrible. Sparing the planet from the destruction of a divine war only makes sense if violence is inevitable.

I understand healing/resurrection could be politicized, but would Balthazar have cared if Melandru helped to repair Maguuma?

After chaining/the death of Balthazar its too risky for Grenth to clear out the remaining Risen in Orr?

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You have to keep in mind that the gods are giant balls of magic. Their mere presence would likely attract the Elder Dragons straight to them, just as Primordus moved right to the concentration of Mordremoth + Zhaitan magic in the Ring of Fire. Them showing up to do anything - let alone fight demigod Balthazar (as that is what he basically was at the time of PoF) - could very well be like getting a megaphone and shouting "DINNER TIME!" to the Elder Dragons.

So even if they just show up, they'd likely be drawing conflict.

Now there's the chance the Elder Dragons wouldn't go to them - after all, we've had more than enough evidence to suggest the magic that is invisible / immune to corruption is divine on some level - but is that a risk folks would be willing to take? If Grenth were to show up in Orr, he might well draw the deep sea dragon into Orr as well; if Melandru showed up in Maguuma, her presence may restir Primordus and Jormag back into awakening. And if any of them had went and showed up in a highly populated location like Lion's Arch? Yeah...

Furthermore, if the Elder Dragons did approach them, the Six Gods would either have to leave immediately to avoid conflict - in which case all they did was rile the Elder Dragons up and change the course of action making the situation unpredictable for mortals - or they'd have to fight, in which we get another "sea turned into a desert" scenario if not worse.

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@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:You have to keep in mind that the gods are giant kitten of magic.

I didn't think of that. Although couldn't Kormir keep the library running? Or Grenth stay in the Underworld? Why did they leave the mists too?

Based on the Lost Lore of the Crystal Oasis achievement reward, they went to settle another world with humanity. Basically abandoning the "failed experiment" and start anew - without Elder Dragons (and, I'd imagine, war hungry gods like Balthazar).

There is a line that says they'd return for the faithful but it is written from the perspective of a faithful. So I'm doubtful they intend to return.

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Meh, they should just stay in their realms and do their job.

If they can't help directly, they can at least do that.Going away is just a kitten move and it's really more annoying.It does only devalue their role in the whole guild wars story, because apparently their role is not as crucial to the world as they made us believe.

In the end we get a world where no one believes in anything and Asura run the world.

It just feels bad.

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What about helping out with knowledge then ? Telling people stuff that might help them against the dragons ? But they basically reduced it to a binary decision: Nothing or Total Destruction.

Do we even know what a god can do (other than commission statues and replace each other) ? Can they sink a continent or raise it, can they create life ? Massive mind-control ? Anything in the lore about that ?

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@Jaken.6801 said:Meh, they should just stay in their realms and do their job.

If they can't help directly, they can at least do that.Going away is just a kitten move and it's really more annoying.It does only devalue their role in the whole guild wars story, because apparently their role is not as crucial to the world as they made us believe.

In the end we get a world where no one believes in anything and Asura run the world.

It just feels bad.

Three months ago we went to a map solely dedicated to the gods in Orr. One week ago we went to explore an area of the world that was created following the outcome of a clash between the gods.

Don't worry about these entities, leaving Tyria now didn't devalue their overall contribution to its rich history.

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@Gorgaan Peaudesang.8324 said:

@Jaken.6801 said:Meh, they should just stay in their realms and do their job.

If they can't help directly, they can at least do that.Going away is just a kitten move and it's really more annoying.It does only devalue their role in the whole guild wars story, because apparently their role is not as crucial to the world as they made us believe.

In the end we get a world where no one believes in anything and Asura run the world.

It just feels bad.

Three months ago we went to a map solely dedicated to the gods in Orr. One week ago we went to explore an area of the world that was created following the outcome of a clash between the gods.

Don't worry about these entities, leaving Tyria now didn't devalue their overall contribution to its rich history.

You are aware that they still did their job.They did govern over their realms and influence?

So even if there was that occurrence where one went AWOL and it came to a war of the gods, that doesn't mean they had no role or purpose in the world.

Even if only the humans were following them, we know that what they believed was true, because we went to several realms of the gods in gw1.

They were doing stuff we believed to be important. At least to humans.Now it seems like it could be done by a stand in (see the judge we meet).

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:You have to keep in mind that the gods are giant kitten of magic.

I didn't think of that. Although couldn't Kormir keep the library running? Or Grenth stay in the Underworld? Why did they leave the mists too?

Based on the Lost Lore of the Crystal Oasis achievement reward, they went to settle another world with humanity. Basically abandoning the "failed experiment" and start anew - without Elder Dragons (and, I'd imagine, war hungry gods like Balthazar).

There is a line that says they'd return for the faithful but it is written from the perspective of a faithful. So I'm doubtful they intend to return.

What's your opinion on the afterlife? Are these realms like the Underworld just fully automated now, totally abandoned by the Six beyond the odd caretaker or two? It seems a little odd to me that the Gods would be content with letting humanity worship them for a lifetime, only to sort of give them the middle finger when they die.

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@Wings.5140 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:You have to keep in mind that the gods are giant kitten of magic.

I didn't think of that. Although couldn't Kormir keep the library running? Or Grenth stay in the Underworld? Why did they leave the mists too?

Based on the Lost Lore of the Crystal Oasis achievement reward, they went to settle another world with humanity. Basically abandoning the "failed experiment" and start anew - without Elder Dragons (and, I'd imagine, war hungry gods like Balthazar).

There is a line that says they'd return for the faithful but it is written from the perspective of a faithful. So I'm doubtful they intend to return.

What's your opinion on the afterlife? Are these realms like the Underworld just fully automated now, totally abandoned by the Six beyond the odd caretaker or two? It seems a little odd to me that the Gods would be content with letting humanity worship them for a lifetime, only to sort of give them the middle finger when they die.

Not to mention Dhuum, he surely loves the gods leaving him to rampage around down there.

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I was hoping that they would come up with a better story, something that also explains the exodus of the gods from Orr long ago. Like maybe there are other Gods living in the Mists that did not come to Tyria; and there is a war going on in the Mists between the Gods; and if the six don't focus on that war then everyone's souls might be taken by evil gods. But no the whole story was stupid. They could have at least trapped Balthazar in the mists again. Stupid lore is stupid.

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@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:You have to keep in mind that the gods are giant kitten of magic. Their mere presence would likely attract the Elder Dragons straight to them, just as Primordus moved right to the concentration of Mordremoth + Zhaitan magic in the Ring of Fire. Them showing up to do anything - let alone fight demigod Balthazar (as that is what he basically was at the time of PoF) - could very well be like getting a megaphone and shouting "DINNER TIME!" to the Elder Dragons.

But I thought the dragons were afraid of divine magics, like the orb from Orr ( at least when I asked this question thats what I was told)

Now there's the chance the Elder Dragons wouldn't go to them - after all, we've had more than enough evidence to suggest the magic that is invisible / immune to corruption is divine on some level - but is that a risk folks would be willing to take?

If dragons don't go after divine magics then yes, the gods could have stopped this from happening from the beginning, especially since they knew this was going to happen.But since Kralkatorik just ate the energy left from balthazar it makes me wonder if they are in fact afraid or deterred by divine magics at all.

It could be speculated that balthazar had no divine magic left, but if thats the case why didn't the remaining gods just kill him from the beginning?We have also seen from the death of abbaddon what happens when divine magics and the essence of a god go out of control from their passing.

My conclusion,I think kralk just ate some divine magics, which leads me to believe that the dragons consume all magic including divine, while the minions are the ones effected negatively by it.

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@Solori.6025 said:But I thought the dragons were afraid of divine magics, like the orb from Orr ( at least when I asked this question thats what I was told)

The blue orb is not divine at all. The only thing dragon minions were ever "afraid of" would be the divine torch and the mordrem. The exact reason, however, is unclear. There are cases of divine magic (potentially) being immune to corruption, capable of reversing the enslavement of will, or being invisible to Elder Dragons (Bloodstone, Forgotten/Exalted magic, Foefire, Divine Torch, and Balthazar walking up to Primordus through a horde of destroyers before turning on the machine, are all known or possible examples of divine magic) but none of those cases, aside from the divine torch, indicate fear.

@Solori.6025 said:If dragons don't go after divine magics then yes, the gods could have stopped this from happening from the beginning, especially since they knew this was going to happen.But since Kralkatorik just ate the energy left from balthazar it makes me wonder if they are in fact afraid or deterred by divine magics at all.

It could be speculated that balthazar had no divine magic left, but if thats the case why didn't the remaining gods just kill him from the beginning?We have also seen from the death of abbaddon what happens when divine magics and the essence of a god go out of control from their passing.

My conclusion,I think kralk just ate some divine magics, which leads me to believe that the dragons consume all magic including divine, while the minions are the ones effected negatively by it.

As Kormir said, Abaddon's magic being released is what stirred the Elder Dragons. There's no real indication to show that the gods could have stopped the Elder Dragons' rise - even what Kormir said could have been a revelation in hindsight rather than foresight. It's entirely possible the gods thought the Elder Dragons would only begin to rise in another millennia or something.

Balthazar was stripped of his power, so what Kralkatorrik and Aurene ate was, with 100% certainty, the magic from the Bloodstone, Jormag, and Primordus. It is hinted that Balthazar had some divinity left in him (being able to reignite Sohothin and all) but it wasn't enough to break his prison (unlike Abaddon, who was never stripped of his power, only had it locked away, and was able to break free after getting at least about 3/8th of his power back).

It's unclear if Kralkatorrik or Aurene ate the remnant divine magic from Balthazar. It's also unclear why the gods didn't just kill Balthazar - aside from "well then the plot of PoF wouldn't have happened". It's also entirely possible that if Kralkatorrik and/or Aurene ate what was left of Balthazar's divinity (if any was left after igniting Sohothin), that it was only capable of being consumed because it was free and rampant, rather than in a vessel of some sort.

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@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

It's unclear if Kralkatorrik or Aurene ate the remnant divine magic from Balthazar. It's also unclear why the gods didn't just kill Balthazar - aside from "well then the plot of PoF wouldn't have happened". It's also entirely possible that if Kralkatorrik and/or Aurene ate what was left of Balthazar's divinity (if any was left after igniting Sohothin), that it was only capable of being consumed because it was free and rampant, rather than in a vessel of some sort.

I guess this was intended as a fate worse than death punishment. Balthazar who was the god of war and liked his power, was stripped of his power and left to rot somewhere in the mists for eternity unable to do anything or to be powerful. It would have worked, and he would perhaps wished for his own death, but well Rytlock and his sword shenanigans happened.

Well its the only reason I can see for the Gods to left Balthazar to rot.

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:Balthazar was stripped of his power, so what Kralkatorrik and Aurene ate was, with 100% certainty, the magic from the Bloodstone, Jormag, and Primordus. It is hinted that Balthazar had some divinity left in him (being able to reignite Sohothin and all) but it wasn't enough to break his prison (unlike Abaddon, who was never stripped of his power, only had it locked away, and was able to break free after getting at least about 3/8th of his power back).

Can you be certain? EDs convert ley into corruption. Why wouldn't Gods convert ley into divine magic?

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Maybe Balthazar wasn't wielding divine power.

I mean he was stripped of his rank and power and left to rot. Maybe he only had his own former magic to sustain himself. Maybe he was strong enough to survive in the mists and reignite Sohothin (or it was artistic in the cinematic).

What if he was adapting his old look with all the new magic he consumed over time, but not wielding divine power at all. For all we know, he mostly has the bloodstone and the Elder Dragon magic in him.

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Facing The Truth

Lady Kasmeer Meade: "I-please excuse me, Goddess. Perhaps I wasn't clear-we can't hope to defeat Balthazar without the aid of the Six."Rytlock Brimstone: "Or the five. Balthazar is one of the Six."Kormir: "No. He isn't. Balthazar has been stripped of his claim and title. He is no longer one of the Six."

Kormir clearly states Balthazar is no longer one of the Six. (that also means someone must have taken his place) So i think we can say with 100% certainty that no divine power went to Aurene or Kralkatorrik. Don't know if Balthazar had still acces to divine magic. But reigniting Sohothin indicates he had still access to some sort of power.

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@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:Balthazar was stripped of his power, so what Kralkatorrik and Aurene ate was, with 100% certainty, the magic from the Bloodstone, Jormag, and Primordus. It is hinted that Balthazar had some divinity left in him (being able to reignite Sohothin and all) but it wasn't enough to break his prison (unlike Abaddon, who was never stripped of his power, only had it locked away, and was able to break free after getting at least about 3/8th of his power back).

Can you be certain? EDs convert ley into corruption. Why wouldn't Gods convert ley into divine magic?

Kormir outright tells us that Balthazar was stripped of his power (as quoted by Kenagin) - hence his entire campaign to gain more power in Season 3. The fact that, even after being powered up, Balthazar didn't blind us when we looked at him is proof that they cannot convert ley into divine.

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:Balthazar was stripped of his power, so what Kralkatorrik and Aurene ate was, with 100% certainty, the magic from the Bloodstone, Jormag, and Primordus. It is hinted that Balthazar had some divinity left in him (being able to reignite Sohothin and all) but it wasn't enough to break his prison (unlike Abaddon, who was never stripped of his power, only had it locked away, and was able to break free after getting at least about 3/8th of his power back).

Can you be certain? EDs convert ley into corruption. Why wouldn't Gods convert ley into divine magic?

Kormir outright tells us that Balthazar was stripped of his power (as quoted by Kenagin) - hence his entire campaign to gain more power in Season 3. The fact that, even after being powered up, Balthazar didn't blind us when we looked at him is proof that they cannot convert ley into divine.

But Kormir didn't blind us either? And she arguably has more power than Balthazar.

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The Six don't blind you immediately, they blind you through prolonged exposure like the sun. If you have certain settings turned on you can see the edges of the screen get progressively more dark in that instance. In addition, you have the blind debuff on you in her presence.

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@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:Balthazar was stripped of his power, so what Kralkatorrik and Aurene ate was, with 100% certainty, the magic from the Bloodstone, Jormag, and Primordus. It is hinted that Balthazar had some divinity left in him (being able to reignite Sohothin and all) but it wasn't enough to break his prison (unlike Abaddon, who was never stripped of his power, only had it locked away, and was able to break free after getting at least about 3/8th of his power back).

Can you be certain? EDs convert ley into corruption. Why wouldn't Gods convert ley into divine magic?

Kormir outright tells us that Balthazar was stripped of his power (as quoted by Kenagin) - hence his entire campaign to gain more power in Season 3. The fact that, even after being powered up, Balthazar didn't blind us when we looked at him is proof that they cannot convert ley into divine.

But Kormir didn't blind us either? And she arguably has more power than Balthazar.

When you speak to Kormir you get a unique Blind debuff, which darkens the vision of the screen over the course of the dialogue and goes away when she leaves. I think you need post processing on to see it though.

Balthazar never once causes this.

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@Kenagin.3529 said:

Rytlock Brimstone: "Or the five. Balthazar is one of the Six."Kormir: "No. He isn't. Balthazar has been stripped of his claim and title. He is no longer one of the Six."

Kormir clearly states Balthazar is no longer one of the Six. (that also means someone must have taken his place) So i think we can say with 100% certainty that no divine power went to Aurene or Kralkatorrik. Don't know if Balthazar had still acces to divine magic. But reigniting Sohothin indicates he had still access to some sort of power.

In my humble opinion, Kormir states here that Balthazar is not considered to be part of the Six anymore by the other five. Not that he is not a God anymore. Because he was stripped by his claim and title. Is this enough to make a being a God? A title? So, is enough for a human to claim that he is god and the gods to give him the title of God (god of anything, only the title is important) to became a god?

Hm. Thinking back, Grenth is the result of Dwayna fulfilling her nocturnal phantasms with a mortal. He got the title from his mama. Then he claimed he is a God. After that he attacked Dhuum - under the pretext Dhuum was bad. I bet Dwayna managed to gather the other gods to support Grenth. And voilà! Dhuum is not one of the six anymore :o

How low the lore team will go with the quality of the story? Not only the main story is almost a delirum without logic, but even the dialogues started to change in something lacking any credibility !

Conclusion: From Kormir's statements, we found the answer to the long debated question: "What makes the gods to be gods". The answer is: guts to claim you are a god and then a title (it seems Dwayna is the easiest to be persuaded to give a title).

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@Cristalyan.5728 said:

@Kenagin.3529 said:

Rytlock Brimstone: "Or the five. Balthazar is one of the Six."Kormir: "No. He isn't. Balthazar has been stripped of his claim and title. He is no longer one of the Six."

Kormir clearly states Balthazar is no longer one of the Six. (that also means someone must have taken his place) So i think we can say with 100% certainty that no divine power went to Aurene or Kralkatorrik. Don't know if Balthazar had still acces to divine magic. But reigniting Sohothin indicates he had still access to some sort of power.

In my humble opinion, Kormir states here that Balthazar
is not considered
to be part of the Six anymore by the other five. Not that he is not a God anymore. Because he was stripped by his
claim and title
. Is this enough to make a being a God? A title? So, is enough for a human to claim that he is god and the gods to give him the title of God (god of anything, only the title is important) to became a god?

Hm. Thinking back, Grenth is the result of Dwayna fulfilling her nocturnal phantasms with a mortal. He got the title from his mama. Then he claimed he is a God. After that he attacked Dhuum - under the pretext Dhuum was
bad
. I bet Dwayna managed to gather the other gods to support Grenth. And voilà! Dhuum is not one of the six anymore :o

How low the lore team will go with the quality of the story? Not only the main story is almost a delirum without logic, but even the dialogues started to change in something lacking any credibility !

Conclusion: From Kormir's statements, we found the answer to the long debated question: "What makes the gods to be gods". The answer is: guts to claim you are a god and then a title (it seems Dwayna is the easiest to be persuaded to give a title).

You're making a lot of assumptions not based on actual lore.

She doesn't say, is not considered. She says: "No. He isn't. Balthazar has been stripped of his claim and title. He is no longer Part of The Six." In response to Rytlock saying Balthazar is one of the Six. They are still called The Six but Balthazar is no longer one of The Six. When Abaddon was cast down, they no longer called themselves the Six but the Five True Gods

And so did Kormir and her allies engage the dark god in titanic battle. And through her power, and their combined skill and bravery, and the blessings of the Five True Gods, did Abaddon at last face his ultimate defeat.Wiki page Kormir

Grenth is Dwayna's son. But iirc it's never mentioned that the other Gods helped Grenth. Grenth defeated Dhuum and took his place. (and claiming his title) Not Dwayna giving him the title. However Dhuum is still alive as far as we know. He is no longer a God but still powerfull. Stronger than a mere mortal. (he managed to break free from his prison) And that is also why Balthazar is still powerfull, he is no longer a true God, but still a very powerfull being. Capable of absorbing large quantities of magic.

Your conclusion makes no sense when reading the bits of lore spreaded throughout Tyria. The wiki page of Grenth says the following:

Grenth is the god of darkness, ice, and death. Originally a half-god, Grenth was the child of Dwayna and a mortal sculptor and the first god born of Tyria, with domain over mortality and judgment and called the "Prince of Ice and Sorrow." To Orrians, Grenth was the god of death and judgment, and the patron of strict ethics. Grenth ascended to godhood with the aid of the Seven Reapers by supplanting the previous god of death, Dhuum, in Orr and sealing him behind the enchanted doors of the Hall of Judgement. Grenth then shattered Dhuum's tower in the Underworld, creating the Chaos Planes. He took his place among the gods in the presence of his mother, in the spot where his father had fallen. As a god, he is attributed to the judgment of the dead, vengeance, and destruction alongside darkness, ice, and death.

About 250 years ago, Dhuum's minions waged a war in the Underworld against Grenth and aided the servants of Abaddon in trying to bring about Nightfall. This culminated when Dhuum woke from his slumber, though the Reapers were able to place him back into dormancy with the aid of adventurers. However, given that Dhuum had repeatedly awakened, the true outcome of the war is still unknown, though many creatures from the Underworld, such as Aatxes and Shades, have been seen coming through portals.Wiki page Grenth

Balthazar still being powerfull is not an indication that he is a God, Dhuum who was suplanted by Grenth still has an impact on Tyria. He aided Abaddon through his minions and was kept dormant by the seven reapers and adventures (gw1 players). And underworld creatures keep showing up on Tyria.

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