Ty for saving the terrormancer!

One thing i can say about last set of balance changes is that Terrormancer is finally back in business, ty a-net for making him viable again in spvp :)

The spectral ring is awesome - such a simple change yet so much impact! No longer a niche chokepoint usage skill, spectral ring has a ton of uses and plays. Excellent change.Fear of Death is what sealed the deal for terrormancer's return. The full 100% fear duration and life force generation allow to get some life force on a condi build (infamous achilles' heel for condi necros) and provides build diversity - with maxed fear duration outta the box, one can choose to ignore condition duration in favor of other stats for more diverse builds, like bruiser-y terror mancer that does less damage but has more sustain for more decap oriented build, rather then do-or-die pure damage machine.

Too bad it doesn't have a CD reduction trait anymore :disappointed:

With one hand anet giveth, and with three they taketh away.

@Aplethoraof.2643 said:Too bad it doesn't have a CD reduction trait anymore :disappointed:

With one hand anet giveth, and with three they taketh away.

I think 40 seconds is fair for how effective it can be now. 2 seconds of Fear with 15% LF and 4% because they never removed that functionality. I think it's a fair loss; Scourge is going to be absolutely terrifying ha.

@ZeftheWicked.3076 said:One thing i can say about last set of balance changes is that Terrormancer is finally back in business, ty a-net for making him viable again in spvp :)

The spectral ring is awesome - such a simple change yet so much impact! No longer a niche chokepoint usage skill, spectral ring has a ton of uses and plays. Excellent change.Fear of Death is what sealed the deal for terrormancer's return. The full 100% fear duration and life force generation allow to get some life force on a condi build (infamous achilles' heel for condi necros) and provides build diversity - with maxed fear duration outta the box, one can choose to ignore condition duration in favor of other stats for more diverse builds, like bruiser-y terror mancer that does less damage but has more sustain for more decap oriented build, rather then do-or-die pure damage machine.

Still need to fix it so that it increases base duration instead of working like expertise or they now need to change runes with fear duration to boost a different stat as you cant over cap the 100% duration.

Being a spvp player as well as PvE one i think the real solution here is to boost base fear durations in PvE only. In spvp and WvW boon corrupts serve as random, yet viable sources of fear, and having ppl run 4s from a single fear cast (while we have many ways to do this) could be broken, especially with scourges stacking in groups.

As for runes - well there are the setups without fear of death. I do agree however that 20% extra fear duration on rune of necromancer is pathetic, seeing that we have 100% fear duration trait and runes that grant 20% and above all condi duration, not just fear.

Maybe if it was something like bonus effect on fearing an enemy, instead of 20% duration that serves no purpose compared to better runes...

@ZeftheWicked.3076 said:Being a spvp player as well as PvE one i think the real solution here is to boost base fear durations in PvE only. In spvp and WvW boon corrupts serve as random, yet viable sources of fear, and having ppl run 4s from a single fear cast (while we have many ways to do this) could be broken, especially with scourges stacking in groups.

As for runes - well there are the setups without fear of death. I do agree however that 20% extra fear duration on rune of necromancer is pathetic, seeing that we have 100% fear duration trait and runes that grant 20% and above all condi duration, not just fear.

Maybe if it was something like bonus effect on fearing an enemy, instead of 20% duration that serves no purpose compared to better runes...

confusion on inflicting fear #maketerrorgreatagain

@"ZeftheWicked.3076" said:

Fear of Death is what sealed the deal for terrormancer's return. The full 100% fear duration

Side-note. I reported this as a bug (hoping it is one), but it only adds 0.5 seconds to fear. Not +100% duration to fear, as it describes.

Proof: https://imgur.com/a/2JsHWTx

Knowing a-net, the description will probably soon read "Adds 0.5 Seconds to Fear Effects" :anguished:

@Aplethoraof.2643 said:

@"ZeftheWicked.3076" said:

Fear of Death is what sealed the deal for terrormancer's return. The full 100% fear duration

What is your Expertise stat? Your "original durations" are showing that you have around 50% Fear/Condition duration. When there's a cap of +100%, of course 50+100=100.

Wvw point of view. solo roaming, small-scale roaming and zergs:

I don't think terrormancer is that great.I played several builds several times now, core and scourge terrormancer, but in most cases it just doesn't work out well.

Because you don't have enough reliable sources of fear. Sure the ring is nice, but it will only trigger its effect once against good players.

And you have to play staff, which makes you not as flexible as running something else to get better sustain for example (dagger).

Even though it can be the highest damage dealing condition, it1.doesnt stack in intensity2.has 3-4 counterplays available

For point 1: yeah I think it would be too strong to stack intensity. But you have to keep in mind, that this is more a bursty trait. So you are trying to burst other people with that condition spike.But for that, it's just not reliant enough. We only have maximum 4 direct sources of fear:-Spectral ring-staff 5-shroud-lich form

Well, lichform is still the worst possible to take necro elite. Even abilities like mistfire wolf or sylvary elite are just straight up better, than to take that elite just for it's very static fear, that is most of the times very hard to hit, due to the movement/kiting abilities of all other classes.

So let's say it's only 3 sources of fear.

Then you have the random stability corrupts. And as soon as a good player realizes, you are playing terrormancer, he just won't use his abilities, that give him stability, because necro doesn't have any other reliant hard cc. So he doesn't need to have stability.

-So this would be the first counterplay for terrormancer. Not using stability. Or sometimes using stability, if you can cover that boon with other boons. So necro has to be very lucky with its corrupts.-Next one is stunbreaks. Some classes even have passive auto stunbreaks (while necros [that didn't even trigger on stun, last gasp] got removed btw)-Then there's also active stunbreaks-Condition cleanses.-resistance

All of this is very effective against fear. And that's why I think, it's only a gimmicky build, that can work against bad players, and players that aren't prepared for condimancers.

So:

1. It can work in solo roaming, but most classes have so much damage and sustain, that you die very fast even on full trailblazer.
2. Core has some okayish sustain, but lacks some offensive pressure
3. I think it's not worth to build around that trait. It's more just a bonus effect
4. In small-scale it can work as well, you can even play more offensive builds when paired with a firebrand
5. In zergs it's just bad. Enemies will have a lot of condicleanses and stability. So path of corruption is just straight up better (only on scourge)

@Nimon.7840 said:Wvw point of view. solo roaming, small-scale roaming and zergs:

I don't think terrormancer is that great.I played several builds several times now, core and scourge terrormancer, but in most cases it just doesn't work out well.

Because you don't have enough reliable sources of fear. Sure the ring is nice, but it will only trigger its effect once against good players.

And you have to play staff, which makes you not as flexible as running something else to get better sustain for example (dagger).

Even though it can be the highest damage dealing condition, it1.doesnt stack in intensity2.has 3-4 counterplays available

For point 1: yeah I think it would be too strong to stack intensity. But you have to keep in mind, that this is more a bursty trait. So you are trying to burst other people with that condition spike.But for that, it's just not reliant enough. We only have maximum 4 direct sources of fear:-Spectral ring-staff 5-shroud-lich form

Well, lichform is still the worst possible to take necro elite. Even abilities like mistfire wolf or sylvary elite are just straight up better, than to take that elite just for it's very static fear, that is most of the times very hard to hit, due to the movement/kiting abilities of all other classes.

So let's say it's only 3 sources of fear.

Then you have the random stability corrupts. And as soon as a good player realizes, you are playing terrormancer, he just won't use his abilities, that give him stability, because necro doesn't have any other reliant hard cc. So he doesn't need to have stability.

-So this would be the first counterplay for terrormancer. Not using stability. Or sometimes using stability, if you can cover that boon with other boons. So necro has to be very lucky with its corrupts.-Next one is stunbreaks. Some classes even have passive auto stunbreaks (while necros [that didn't even trigger on stun, last gasp] got removed btw)-Then there's also active stunbreaks-Condition cleanses.-resistance

All of this is very effective against fear. And that's why I think, it's only a gimmicky build, that can work against bad players, and players that aren't prepared for condimancers.

So:

1. It can work in solo roaming, but most classes have so much damage and sustain, that you die very fast even on full trailblazer.
2. Core has some okayish sustain, but lacks some offensive pressure
3. I think it's not worth to build around that trait. It's more just a bonus effect
4. In small-scale it can work as well, you can even play more offensive builds when paired with a firebrand
5. In zergs it's just bad. Enemies will have a lot of condicleanses and stability. So path of corruption is just straight up better (only on scourge)

Apart from the reasons you listed, I think the other main reason why condi terrormancer falls flat is because necromancer as a class has the most well designed approach to how condition damage is supposed to work across all the classes.

Apart from the period when chill applied 3 stacks of bleed on Reaper, necromancer as a whole has no condi spike capability.

Condi dmg on necro is truely a damage that slowly ramps up overtime and hence can be sufficiently handled by most other classes with decent condi clears.

If we look at condi builds on other classes, they are mostly capable of spiking a large stack of condi damage in bursts over a short window with little ramp up time. Our so called condi spike is pathetic in comparison to the other classes. We require a ramp up time unlike other classes.

The most OP burst has to belong to Mirage. Mirage is like the pre-nerf chill Reaper on steroids.

• Mesmer burst: large stacks of torment and confusion with some burning
• Thief burst: large stacks of poison and bleed
• Guardian burst: large stacks of burning
• Engineer burst: large stacks of burning
• Revenant burst: large stacks of torment
• Ranger burst: large stacks of bleeds with some burning
• Elementalist: moderate stacks of bleeds and burns
• Warrior: moderate stacks of bleeds and burns
• Necro: Low stacks of everything

We are the only class that can't do spike burst with huge stacks of condi damage.

I think probably the best way to make terrormancer work is with a hybrid build like @Icewielder.4195 is running.

@Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

@Aplethoraof.2643 said:

@"ZeftheWicked.3076" said:

Fear of Death is what sealed the deal for terrormancer's return. The full 100% fear duration

Ooooh! Fair point, yeah. I forgot about that.

@EremiteAngel.9765 said:Apart from the reasons you listed, I think the other main reason why condi terrormancer falls flat is because necromancer as a class has the most well designed approach to how condition damage is supposed to work across all the classes.

This is so true that it's almost infuriating... lol. But yeah, the design approch on condition damages on the necromancer is indeed the one that suit best condition damage and that other profession should also follow instead of those burst that they do.

And yeah, terrormancer also struggle because the condi ramp up is long (in comparison of other profession) on necromancer.

Burst should be a power thing not a condi thing, what most other profession do with their sustained burst of condi damage isn't good design.

Okay, since we're being a little more serious about this whole Terrormancer thing. Scourge is probably the best elite specialization for the trait due to the ability to pretty much regenerate 100HP per second of fearing someone. On top of the fact that Scourge has the ability to AoE Fear the most, inflict the most Torment, and has the most access to other high-damaging conditions.

There's just a single issue with using Terrormancer over Blood Shade or whatever it's called and it's the fact you can't res bot.Terrormancer ScourgeThere is a lot of variety for what you can use here. I could spend my time saying what it all is, but you can probably connect the dots based on what I'll be saying.

So, I believe Terrormancer Scourge is probably one of the strongest CC setups for Necromancer right now.

Terrormancer Scourge has the ability to completely shutdown Boonbeast due to their ability to constantly corrupt and deal condition damage. Dealing ~1.1k damage per tick of Fear is ~110HP and then inflicting Torment also adds to it, and then doubles the effectiveness of said-Torment because the target is moving. There's a beautiful little trait called Feed from Corruption. This trait allows you to gain boons you corrupt or remove. Stability corrupted? You're inflicting 2 seconds of Fear, gaining 15% life force, and gaining 2 stacks of stability. This enables Scourge to play an aggressive role against the strong boon meta that has been going on for years. It'll flip most of the sustain builds on their head due to not being able to stack might, deal enough damage, or even break their fear chains. Another example being Protection Holosmith. Corrupt their Stability, 2 seconds of Fear, and you gain 2 stacks of stability; they stun break from a Protection proc, converting it back to Stability. Again, you can convert that back into 2 seconds of Fear. Enabling for heavy pursuit on a target.

The biggest issue with Terrormancer is CC and thieves. Thieves because of Sword's ability to disengage constantly. Deadeye because of their ability to snipe, although you can take Corrosive Poison Cloud over Spectral Ring to protect team mates and yourself from their harassment. Another issue can be Meditation Guardians due to their ability to convert all their conditions into boons at once, making it hard to corrupt the right boons for the right situation, and then Mirage because of the ability to either shut you down with Mantras, Staff's ability to inflict strong conditions at a pretty solid rate, although Plague Signet could fix that if you can time their evades, and the beauty of Lost Time Chronomancer damage.

Another big issue I can see is the fact that Scourge already receives a lot of focus due to being easy to shutdown if focused intensely, so yeah.

Anyway, I think Terrormancer is a fine build and that I don't think there needs to be many changes going on for Necromancer right now, but Scourge could use some love. Necromancer is pretty much a shroud tank, Reaper is a Power DPS, and Scourge is a condi bomb/res bot.

Good, solid discussion, here. Here are a few of my own thoughts, for what it's worth.

• Necro fear is an on-demand pseudo-control effect that is clunky.
• • The highest availability is locked behind shroud for core and reaper forcing a 2-step activation with a visual warning.
• • Staff's fear is on staff - a utility weapon - and has a long-ish cool down.
• • Stability corruptions have great tactical value but there are a number of requirements to meet before a fear is processed.
• • Environmental weapons, skulls, have a long tell, provided they are available and can be acquired.
• • There is no sigil that proc's fear and rune of the Sunless is tied to an elite skill use like FG's Charge.
• Terror does not have the total damage capability that bleed does. It is not even close. Terror can only be used as a small dps increase and must compete with Path of Corruption and Master of Corruption. Both alternatives are attractive for their own reasons in a condition damage build.

You are welcome.

Terrormancer will never really be viable as long as it's most important traits (terror, master of corruption, path of corruption) are all in the master trait slot..

if curses would look somewhat like this though terrormancer could be a thing:

! Major!! Path of Corruption! Shroud #2 corrupts 2 Boons into Conditions!! Terrifying Descend! When you fear a Foe also apply Torment!! Chillig Darkness! Blinding a Target also applies Chill!! Master!! Master of Corruption! Corruptions apply additional Conditions and get a 33% reduced recharge!! Plague Sending! Your first Attack after entering Shroud transfers Conditions!! Parasitic Contagion! Heal yourself for 10% of outgoing Condition Damage!! Grandmaster!! Weakening Shroud! Cast lesser Enfeeble when entering Shroud. Critical hits apply Weakness!! Terror! Fear deals damage. Reduce the cooldown of all Fear inflicting skills by 20%!! Lingering Curse! Highter Conditiondamage and -duration when wielding a Scepter. Get acces to Devouring Darkness

In sPvP It's a fun build to play indeed, brings back good memories. It's strong against specs with lots of boons and sort of tanky due to plenty LF generation from fears, scepter 3, marks. Also if you manage your LF well, you have a nice stunbreak on a 10s CD with Foot in the Grave. I have played many variants with Spite, sometimes Blood with Unholy Martyr if there's too much condi pressure (against Mirage+Scourge combo).

I consider Fear of Death a must now (weather you take Terror or not, which you should), every stability you corrupt will give extra LF, and if you pick Spectral Rings which should be your first choice, you have some cool variants. In Curses, I prefer Weakening Shroud because it synergizes with Spiteful Spirit and Foot in the Grave (you don't need that extra LF generation from Lingering Curse since you have plenty, works for other variants though), that makes Shroud a very offensive mechanic, and not only a second HP bar to avoid damage spikes.

Cheeekyla

@DEATHsCLAW.1978 said:Terrormancer will never really be viable as long as it's most important traits (terror, master of corruption, path of corruption) are all in the master trait slot..

if curses would look somewhat like this though terrormancer could be a thing:

!

Major

!! Path of Corruption! Shroud #2 corrupts 2 Boons into Conditions!! Terrifying Descend! When you fear a Foe also apply Torment!! Chillig Darkness! Blinding a Target also applies Chill!!

Master

!! Master of Corruption! Corruptions apply additional Conditions and get a 33% reduced recharge!! Plague Sending! Your first Attack after entering Shroud transfers Conditions!! Parasitic Contagion! Heal yourself for 10% of outgoing Condition Damage!!

Grandmaster

!! Weakening Shroud! Cast lesser Enfeeble when entering Shroud. Critical hits apply Weakness!! Terror! Fear deals damage. Reduce the cooldown of all Fear inflicting skills by 20%!! Lingering Curse! Highter Conditiondamage and -duration when wielding a Scepter. Get acces to Devouring Darkness

This would also in general be a nice change for condi necro tbh and just in general make more sense.