Pls Give us a REAL epic Elder Dragon Fight THIS TIME

We've brought down 2 EDs but both had terrible fights.

Zhaitan was a real push off and you don't even get to fight him directly other than shooting cannon. Other than his size and shape he doesn't show any kind of superpower in the background setting. The whole Arah story dungeon went to the wrong direction. It was keep focusing on the minions before Zhaitan. Come one We've already fought them before, what's the point of bringing them back again? Such effort could have made Zhaitan himself a much cooler fight without making the fight too long. Remember GW1's final fights? Since Factions the final mission is simply about the antagonist.

Mordremoth was worse, don't get me wrong DS was cool but the story was awful, we've been told the dragon is unkillable physically, then we went into the mind to fight a...stupid looking tiny dragon? The fight is even worse than Zhaitan because it's so long, and with the "penalty" box along with tons of bugs it's very painful to finish.

I really hope Kralkatorrik could be better handled.

The problem is: How do you make such a fight, and have it work?

How do you portray fighting (and possibly killing) a creature so large that it was mistaken as a geographical feature for hundreds of years? One that can turn into a storm that's at least the size of a large town, a mass of violent and deadly energy several miles/km wide? And how do you make it fit into the story in such a way that a single player (and the NPCs) can win?

Sadly, there's only so far that the mechanics of the game can be pushed. The epicness of the fight will have to come more from the story leading up to the moment, and that can only be as intense as our investment in it. That's not ANet's best area. Here's hoping they've been hammering out the script all season and shock us with something unexpected.

@"Palador.2170" said:The problem is: How do you make such a fight, and have it work?

How do you portray fighting (and possibly killing) a creature so large that it was mistaken as a geographical feature for hundreds of years? One that can turn into a storm that's at least the size of a large town, a mass of violent and deadly energy several miles/km wide? And how do you make it fit into the story in such a way that a single player (and the NPCs) can win?

Sadly, there's only so far that the mechanics of the game can be pushed. The epicness of the fight will have to come more from the story leading up to the moment, and that can only be as intense as our investment in it. That's not ANet's best area. Here's hoping they've been hammering out the script all season and shock us with something unexpected.

C'mon, my daggers have 13" blades! Shouldnt have any trouble cutting through dragon scales 50 yards thick, right?

I think its possible that we could get a Kralk fight while riding Aurene, having similar mechanics as a griffon and additional attack skills.

I don't know if I share the same opinion - the Elder Dragon fights were okay, at least for me My issue was the lead up to the fights were often felt jarringly random and impromptu, and often warfed NPC's so Players could do EVERYTHING themselves. Even if it's only on paper, I think the story would be much more engaging if the Pact Fleet, Dragons Watch or Destiny's Edge weren't a merely decoration in the background when everything was going down. This is why I consider the Cleansing of Orr to be the true climax to the Personal Story - sure, we did a lot to make it happen, but it felt more like a group victory for the Pact than singular valor.

Personally, the biggest sin in Victory or Death, for me, was when Zhaitan turned the ships gunmen into zombies, meaning we had to do everything ourselves. I think it might have been more engaging and threatening if we had more guns, choppers and airships in the immediate area to combat the Dragon (though how the story plays out is fine). This would have gone a long way into turning Zhatain into a BIG threat that we can barely hold out against.

The Hearts and Minds boss wasn't too bad - their biggest sin for me was that they forgot about Traehearne until the end. I think it would have been cool to have a last hoo-rah with him in the dream-land, and think they really missed a chance to send off a relitively important character. His death felt so... last minute and narmy. I couldn't take it seriously, and just watched as he sqirmed in pain because I really felt nothing for him.

In short, I think the Player Character killing Kralk themselves would be the WORST thing Anet could do. We have allies, heroes and NPC's, and we should use them.

@Poormany.4507 said:I think its possible that we could get a Kralk fight while riding Aurene, having similar mechanics as a griffon and additional attack skills.

I'm getting visions of the fight from How To Train Your Dragon.

@"Slowpokeking.8720" said:We've brought down 2 EDs but both had terrible fights.

Zhaitan was a real push off and you don't even get to fight him directly other than shooting cannon. Other than his size and shape he doesn't show any kind of superpower in the background setting. The whole Arah story dungeon went to the wrong direction. It was keep focusing on the minions before Zhaitan. Come one We've already fought them before, what's the point of bringing them back again? Such effort could have made Zhaitan himself a much cooler fight without making the fight too long. Remember GW1's final fights? Since Factions the final mission is simply about the antagonist.

So..the missions leading up to the final mission are also part of battling him. By the time the final mission happens, youve starved him to the point hes very weak(by killing his mouths) and youve stolen some of the most powerful of his minions from him by cleansing Orr(all of the Eyes of Zhaitan). Also at one point in time if i recall correctly, the cannons fired without you and you battled waves of minions until hes dead, of course at one point time when you did have to fire the cannons you fought an endless hoard of minions(way more than there is now in that instance).

Mordremoth was worse, don't get me wrong DS was cool but the story was awful, we've been told the dragon is unkillable physically, then we went into the mind to fight a...stupid looking tiny dragon? The fight is even worse than Zhaitan because it's so long, and with the "penalty" box along with tons of bugs it's very painful to finish.

In case you didnt know, both of those battles are going on at the same time, the otuside DS battle and the Story Instance one happen together.

Another thing, its incredibly hard to have an epic battle in a game like GW2 when you are going up against dragons that are big enough they dwarf cities, and mountains and they could literally kill you by flicking you with a finger, i think theyve done a good job representing that so far.

I think elder dragon fights should be map metas. Similar to dragon stand, but, instead of fighting mordremoth's minions, the entire meta is directly fighting the elder dragon in different phases. Such a map would have 4 stages. The first 3 would be fighting the elder dragon in a specific terrain that each require different tactics before the elder dragon retreats to the next phase. In phase 4, we will deal the final blow after a shatterer/tecquatl-esque fight.

@"Edelweiss.4261" said:I think elder dragon fights should be map metas. Similar to dragon stand, but, instead of fighting mordremoth's minions, the entire meta is directly fighting the elder dragon in different phases. Such a map would have 4 stages. The first 3 would be fighting the elder dragon in a specific terrain that each require different tactics before the elder dragon retreats to the next phase. In phase 4, we will deal the final blow after a shatterer/tecquatl-esque fight.

That's nice in theory, but...Would you appreciate a fight with a dragon that you, personally did not participate in? Because a fight like that can't recur. There aren't a thousand other Elder Dragons waiting to replace Kralkatorrik. There is one. He dies. We win. The end. Map closed forever.

On the other hand, maybe it can recur... but if the dragons can just "respawn", that means there was literally no point in killing them. All of the damage we've done and story we've had up until this point is nullified (because we didn't kill the dragons), and there is no hope for Tyria to survive. We have done nothing but waste time, effort, and thousands of lives, including your own. I don't know about you, but I don't like that at all.

@Dante.1763 said:So..the missions leading up to the final mission are also part of battling him. By the time the final mission happens, youve starved him to the point hes very weak(by killing his mouths) and youve stolen some of the most powerful of his minions from him by cleansing Orr(all of the Eyes of Zhaitan). Also at one point in time if i recall correctly, the cannons fired without you and you battled waves of minions until hes dead, of course at one point time when you did have to fire the cannons you fought an endless hoard of minions(way more than there is now in that instance).

Doesn't matter, the finale should have been much better.

In case you didnt know, both of those battles are going on at the same time, the otuside DS battle and the Story Instance one happen together.

Another thing, its incredibly hard to have an epic battle in a game like GW2 when you are going up against dragons that are big enough they dwarf cities, and mountains and they could literally kill you by flicking you with a finger, i think theyve done a good job representing that so far.

And the instance one sucks, Zhaitan was bad but at least you could get it done. Mordremoth, you got to depend on your luck since there were many many many bugs.

How about the final boss being an open world boss, but requires the player to unlock that map for the account by going through the story on one character? This way, we get an epic dragon boss fight that is not a single player fight, but the story is not ruined.

Speaking of, below is a post I made a while back of what I would like to see.

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/60990/i-want-an-epic-aerial-map-with-dragon-world-boss-fight

Honestly, I hope Anet continues what they've established since the end of Long Live the Lich in that we, the Player Character, are making things worse. Granted, we got to see first hand what our dragon slaying was doing since the start of LWS3. However, Joko took what a lot of us were thinking and speculating as players of the game and outright called us out on what we've done. Furthermore, we got to see what our actions have resulted in with A Star To Guide Us. I really liked this and I hope they explore it/expand on it more.

If we kill Kralkatorrik, whether alone or with allies (based on the trailer, I don't think we'll be killing Kralkatorrik this episode, merely setting things up to take the fight to them), it shouldn't be a clean resolution, in my opinion. It shouldn't be "Aurene gobbles up Kralk's magic, becomes new benevolent ED, everyone lives happy", especially considering we still have to find ways to replace Zhaitan and Mordremoth with suitable alternatives. I don't think Aurene is capable of consuming/absorbing all of that magic and that her trying to do so is going to have grave consequences. There's also the fact that much of the world outside of the PC and Dragon's Watch is still operating on the "Elder Dragons are bad, kill them all" mindset so Aurene herself would fall under that. The PC trying to protect Aurene would further complicate matters and would further serve the script-flipping that was spelled out for us in Long Live the Lich.

I also think there's still potential in having a counter-guild to Dragon's Watch for the plot too. There was potential for it when Braham was going at it in LWS3. I think the potential is still there for that considering there were parts in Joko's ending speech that made it sound like there were people who wanted the PC stopped to the point they went to him for aid (though that could all just be Joko being Joko and making himself out to be more important than he really was). I'm sure there's plenty of potential past allies the PC and Dragon's Watch have unintentionally angered to the point they'd be willing to get together and try to stop them from making things worse.

I guess what I'm trying to get at with my rambling is that the story and fight can still be epic, just that not all of it should be put on the fight against Kralkatorrik. Anet still has several options and avenues they can explore after that, especially with the whole "maybe the PC and Dragon's Watch are the bad guys" angle.

/latenightrambling

@Poormany.4507 said:I think its possible that we could get a Kralk fight while riding Aurene, having similar mechanics as a griffon and additional attack skills.

Please no... The OP is asking for better fights, not gimmicks.

On-topic:I think Dragon's Stand is pretty good. The story fight against Mordremoth is pretty bad though... And Zhaitan is a buggy mess where you fall through the airship one time too many. On paper its great, and with the right execution it could be awesome.

@"BlueJin.4127" said:How about the final boss being an open world boss, but requires the player to unlock that map for the account by going through the story on one character? This way, we get an epic dragon boss fight that is not a single player fight, but the story is not ruined.

Lots of people (myself included) would consider that "ruining the story".

As you may recall, the final part of the personal story started as a dungeon run, meant for 5 players. A LOT of people hated that, and simply never finished it. Finally, they made it so that a single person can go through. They're not going to make that mistake again. Dragon's Stand was them trying to do both, by having the two events happen at the same time, with the character driven one being (again, and barring bugs) made for a single player to be able to clear.

I could see them doing another Dragon's Stand deal, where there's a big fight and a smaller personal fight going on at the same time. Your map idea could work there, but that's basically Dragon's Stand again. I don't think they'll repeat that unless they have something new and big to bring to the event.

I don't understand why ppl are ok with Mordremoth' design in the dream, even if it's just the avatar it could look better.

@Poormany.4507 said:I think its possible that we could get a Kralk fight while riding Aurene, having similar mechanics as a griffon and additional attack skills.

Maybe Aurene and the player, plus the other characters (in air ships and or those other sanctuary griffons from those eggs you have to collect to get one), could soar into this dragon's mouth and destroy its insides somehow, making our comparatively small size into an asset. With all the breathtaking scenery the artists come up with for environments, I bet a monster's insides would be an interesting challenge for them.

@Slowpokeking.8720 said:

@Dante.1763 said:So..the missions leading up to the final mission are also part of battling him. By the time the final mission happens, youve starved him to the point hes very weak(by killing his mouths) and youve stolen some of the most powerful of his minions from him by cleansing Orr(all of the Eyes of Zhaitan). Also at one point in time if i recall correctly, the cannons fired without you and you battled waves of minions until hes dead, of course at one point time when you did have to fire the cannons you fought an endless hoard of minions(way more than there is now in that instance).

I personally enjoyed it, it was no worse than fighting any of the bosses from GW1 IMO.

In case you didnt know, both of those battles are going on at the same time, the otuside DS battle and the Story Instance one happen together.

Another thing, its incredibly hard to have an epic battle in a game like GW2 when you are going up against dragons that are big enough they dwarf cities, and mountains and they could literally kill you by flicking you with a finger, i think theyve done a good job representing that so far.

I liked the instanced one, the fact hes trying to get into your head by putting you up against your allies(including your dead mentor) was a very cruel but nice touch. Never ran into any bugs myself outside of the one time i tried to do the Challenge mote with a group of two and it failed on Canach, and ive done the instance quite a few times.

We wont get an epic fight if its again a solo 1 man vs beast fight that we can corpse run and brute force through (like joko, like balthazar)

As bad as the mordremoth fight was design or effects wise making it a dificult and at times unfair fight for the wrong reasons it was more challenging than anything we faced in the story and both the group suggestion and the posibility to wipe made for a threatening villian fight.

Somewhat of the same thing with frezzie asking for multiple real ppl than it being a solo or with bots fight makes the snowman a rather intimidating foe (not necessarily hard but ehh) And bring forth the mmo part of the game.

Imo if kralk was a multiperson fight (around 5-10) but not as hard as raids but well designed with clear mechanics, aoes etc and wiping reset the fight that would make for an actually cool elder dragon fight.

@Dante.1763 said:

@Slowpokeking.8720 said:

@Dante.1763 said:So..the missions leading up to the final mission are also part of battling him. By the time the final mission happens, youve starved him to the point hes very weak(by killing his mouths) and youve stolen some of the most powerful of his minions from him by cleansing Orr(all of the Eyes of Zhaitan). Also at one point in time if i recall correctly, the cannons fired without you and you battled waves of minions until hes dead, of course at one point time when you did have to fire the cannons you fought an endless hoard of minions(way more than there is now in that instance).

In case you didnt know, both of those battles are going on at the same time, the otuside DS battle and the Story Instance one happen together.

Another thing, its incredibly hard to have an epic battle in a game like GW2 when you are going up against dragons that are big enough they dwarf cities, and mountains and they could literally kill you by flicking you with a finger, i think theyve done a good job representing that so far.

Shiro and abbadon were both better than zhaitan imo, they posed a thread and u could fail but you fought them with your own powers instead of a cannon throwing glitter at zaithan that we got here (with very little actual fighting).

Yes! Make it a raid boss! hides

@zealex.9410 said:Shiro and abbadon were both better than zhaitan imo, they posed a thread and u could fail but you fought them with your own powers instead of a cannon throwing glitter at zaithan that we got here (with very little actual fighting).

And the Great Destroyer+Mallyx.

What might be cool would be if it was in fact a massive world-event, with a dedicated map so that players can come, participate in the battle, and leave - it could require months to complete, with our armies slowly eroding the defences of the monster. You could get story completion credit by executing certain various functions during the fight, and bonuses for clocking more time - everyone would have to get the ultimate story completed once it dies, regardless of participation, but that could come with no rewards if there's no time spent on the battle.

I want another Dragon's Stand, PoF edition.

@"Slowpokeking.8720" said:We've brought down 2 EDs but both had terrible fights.

Zhaitan was a real push off and you don't even get to fight him directly other than shooting cannon. Other than his size and shape he doesn't show any kind of superpower in the background setting. The whole Arah story dungeon went to the wrong direction. It was keep focusing on the minions before Zhaitan. Come one We've already fought them before, what's the point of bringing them back again? Such effort could have made Zhaitan himself a much cooler fight without making the fight too long. Remember GW1's final fights? Since Factions the final mission is simply about the antagonist.

Mordremoth was worse, don't get me wrong DS was cool but the story was awful, we've been told the dragon is unkillable physically, then we went into the mind to fight a...stupid looking tiny dragon? The fight is even worse than Zhaitan because it's so long, and with the "penalty" box along with tons of bugs it's very painful to finish.

I really hope Kralkatorrik could be better handled.

I hope we don't directly face off against Kraalkatorik in a solo story mission (except to run and hide, maybe). There's definitely room for a solo aspect to the fight to take him down -- but it can be setting things up for the OW Dragon's Stand type fight to have a chance of success -- e.g., helping get Aurene in place to absorb Kraalkatorik's energy so we don't blow up Tyria when we kill him. Or enabling some weapon against him, or disabling some key defense, or something like that. Or all of the above, considering that Balthazar's war machine had Aurene as a key component.

The story of GW2 always made a lot more sense if the PC was an elite operative working for the Pact (and then solo), rather than an actual leader. We should really be doing elite operative stuff.

Sort of off topic, but it just hit me -- I wonder how the OOW and the OOS are going to get along if we take both the Pact and the Elonian factions in the fight against Kraalkatorik?

I can't wait to stab at the hair on the wart of the 3rd toe on its left foot. #EPICDRAGONFIGHTS