Balthazar was right

Ok so here is the thing, in PoF we were trying to stop Balthazar from killing Kralkatorrik or else all of Tyria goes boom.However during The Way Forward we learn of what needs to be done to end the cycle without destroying Tyria.The most important line is: We theorize these vacancies must be filled with entities that circulate and share magic rather than hoard it.Hmmm now who could fit that role? Oh wait don't "The Six" share their powers with mortal races? If one thing Guild Wars taught us about the Gods is that each profession draws its power from a god/s. Like Necromancers gain their power from Grenth, Warriors from Balthazar, Mesmers from Lyssa, while some draw their power from several like Elementalists who gain power of Water from Grenth, Fire from Balthazar, Air from Dwayna and Earth from Melandru.Yeah it sure looks like the Gods would fit the "sharing" bit nicely. And if Balthazar taught us one thing during LW3 and PoF storyline is that the Gods can take the power of the Elder Dragons for themselves. So why couldn't they take care of the problem then? There are Six Gods and Six Elder Dragons, so they could kill each Elder Dragons in turn and each God could replace one every time it's done. Grenth could replace Zhaitan, Melandru replace Mordremoth, Balthazar replace Primordus, Dwayna replace Jormag, Kormir replace Kralkatorrik and Lyssa replace the DSD - problem solved.So it seems Balthazar was right in calling the other Gods "cowards" because if they all got together from the start and fought the Elder Dragons none of the current mishaps would have happened. It seems it's true that the Gods abandoned us and left us to be consumed by the Elder Dragons.Even if we argue that due to "something something" the Gods couldn't replace the Elder Dragons themselves it doesn't really change anything.Our conversation with Kormir proves they knew what killing the Elder Dragons would cause, ergo they must also know that the only real way to end the cycle is the find replacements.So even if they couldn't do the job themselves they could have at least shared their knowledge with us from the start. They could also provide us with "the means" on how to replace the Elder Dragons once we start killing them, they did that for Kormir so she could replace Abaddon. But no, they instead sat quietly on the side and now that things turned for the worse they made a run for it. Well, praise the Six

The gods don't believe they could win a fight against the elder dragons, that's why they left Orr for the Mists in the first place.

That said, Balthazar almost made quick work of three elder dragons. In 5 episodes of LW he went from absorbing the power of a blood stone to almost KOing Jormag and Primordus. Once foiled, it only took him 1 episode of LW and 3 acts of an expansion to nearly finish off Kralkatorrik. So practically speaking, the war could be won.

You also have to consider the war against Abaddon almost destroyed Elona and caused a lot of other problems, and he was not an Elder Dragon. We also have never seen the process by which one entity replaces an Elder Dragon. This sounds good in principle and maybe we'll see Aurene replace Kralkatorrik; but that doesn't mean it will be a clean process. This is a fairly new concept to the player character and friends, only coming up in LW3. Had we known about the process, we'd have employed it against Zhaitan or Mordremoth.

Joko berates us for killing Elder Dragons and gods without having a plan. It could be that the human gods know what it would take to replace the Elder Dragons and decided it's not worth it.

Mordremoth's defeat sent ley magic radially in all directions, it's not obvious how something like that could be contained. If we do defeat Kralkatorrik, I don't expect Aurene to gain all his magic. I'd expect it to be more like the fight with Balthazar where she gains some of the magic. Maybe she'll grow to Tequatl or Glint size, but the rest would be lost to the environment. Especially since we're in such a gosh darn hurry to end Kralkatorrik.

While I agree that the rest of the gods clearly didn't act in our best interests, I don't think that equates to Balthazar being the right one for the job. Even if he could take on the power of Kralkatorrik safely, as a general rule, someone who willingly massacres uninvolved innocents as part of a personal vendetta isn't the kind of person you want to give that power to.

it could work in theory, or it could end the world.I think perhaps the power of the magic is too powerful for the gods so the dragons act as an intermediary (unintentionally).

@"Rikimaru.7890" said:Ok so here is the thing, in PoF we were trying to stop Balthazar from killing Kralkatorrik or else all of Tyria goes boom.However during The Way Forward we learn of what needs to be done to end the cycle without destroying Tyria.The most important line is: We theorize these vacancies must be filled with entities that circulate and share magic rather than hoard it.Hmmm now who could fit that role? Oh wait don't "The Six" share their powers with mortal races? If one thing Guild Wars taught us about the Gods is that each profession draws its power from a god/s. Like Necromancers gain their power from Grenth, Warriors from Balthazar, Mesmers from Lyssa, while some draw their power from several like Elementalists who gain power of Water from Grenth, Fire from Balthazar, Air from Dwayna and Earth from Melandru.Yeah it sure looks like the Gods would fit the "sharing" bit nicely. And if Balthazar taught us one thing during LW3 and PoF storyline is that the Gods can take the power of the Elder Dragons for themselves. So why couldn't they take care of the problem then? There are Six Gods and Six Elder Dragons, so they could kill each Elder Dragons in turn and each God could replace one every time it's done. Grenth could replace Zhaitan, Melandru replace Mordremoth, Balthazar replace Primordus, Dwayna replace Jormag, Kormir replace Kralkatorrik and Lyssa replace the DSD - problem solved.So it seems Balthazar was right in calling the other Gods "cowards" because if they all got together from the start and fought the Elder Dragons none of the current mishaps would have happened. It seems it's true that the Gods abandoned us and left us to be consumed by the Elder Dragons.Even if we argue that due to "something something" the Gods couldn't replace the Elder Dragons themselves it doesn't really change anything.Our conversation with Kormir proves they knew what killing the Elder Dragons would cause, ergo they must also know that the only real way to end the cycle is the find replacements.So even if they couldn't do the job themselves they could have at least shared their knowledge with us from the start. They could also provide us with "the means" on how to replace the Elder Dragons once we start killing them, they did that for Kormir so she could replace Abaddon. But no, they instead sat quietly on the side and now that things turned for the worse they made a run for it. Well, praise the Six

The magic of the Six and the Elder Dragons seems to be fundamentally different or opposed somehow, which is why divine power repelled dragon minions.

It's true that Balthazar was able to harness dragon magic, but he had a fancy macguffin to help him, plus he was only a powerful magical being at that point, not an actual member of the Six. And it's true that Kraalkatorik is able to eat Mists magic, which seems closer to divine magic in nature, but no dragon ever showed much interest in doing so before one ate a fallen god's essence, and it's unclear how it changed Kraalkatorik.

It's possible that trying to mix a celestial aspect of the All with a cthonic aspect of the All in the same entity would be much more destabilizing than trying to mix multiple celestial aspects in one, or multiple cthonic aspects in one (like, the latter is mixing reactive chemicals, while the former is mixing matter and antimatter). The gods know they can't take on the mantle of dragons and mostly care enough for reality not to try, but the greed of the dragons is such that they would attempt it even if it led to their own destruction. Just a theory, though.

I don't think that spellcasters draw their energy directly from the six. The gods just favor certain professions.

@"Rikimaru.7890" said:Ok so here is the thing, in PoF we were trying to stop Balthazar from killing Kralkatorrik or else all of Tyria goes boom.However during The Way Forward we learn of what needs to be done to end the cycle without destroying Tyria.The most important line is: We theorize these vacancies must be filled with entities that circulate and share magic rather than hoard it.Hmmm now who could fit that role? Oh wait don't "The Six" share their powers with mortal races? If one thing Guild Wars taught us about the Gods is that each profession draws its power from a god/s. Like Necromancers gain their power from Grenth, Warriors from Balthazar, Mesmers from Lyssa, while some draw their power from several like Elementalists who gain power of Water from Grenth, Fire from Balthazar, Air from Dwayna and Earth from Melandru.

The Six Gods are not part of The All, and all indications show that the Six Gods cannot become replacements for The All. That line from The Way Forward is a bit of a misnomer (much like "Mordremoth is the jungle" line); what Sadizi meant was to swap the six Elder Dragons' connection to The All to beings that would not try to devastate and consume the world in endless greed.

No sharing with mortals required.

So that means we need six beings who can be connected to The All while also being compassionate to the races. The Six Gods may fulfill the latter quality, but they lack the former.

As perilisk.1874 stated, there are a multitude of suggestions - even more, and heavier ones, after PoF - that the Six Gods' magic is not only so different from the Elder Dragons' but also counteractive to them. Which means the Six Gods simply cannot fulfill the role of replacing the Elder Dragons.

Also, as Eekasqueak says, spellcasters do not draw magic from the Six. In GW1 and before, spellcasters drew their magic from the Bloodstones, not the Six, and later on from the magic in the world itself, like the ley lines.

@"Rikimaru.7890" said:Yeah it sure looks like the Gods would fit the "sharing" bit nicely. And if Balthazar taught us one thing during LW3 and PoF storyline is that the Gods can take the power of the Elder Dragons for themselves. So why couldn't they take care of the problem then?

Because the quantity of magic is not the issue. It's the balance of The All. These are two separate, but related, issues.

Yes, too much magic is an issue. But it isn't THE issue. One more Elder Dragon will destroy the world not because there's too much magic in the world (we're not quite there as our only notable effects are the occasional overflowed ley line that could cause some folks to go mad if interacting with), but instead the world will be destroyed because The All itself is imbalanced.

If it were just a matter of "too much magic" then we needn't bother stopping Balthazar at all. Balthazar - and by extention, the other gods - cannot replace the Elder Dragons. They can only siphon their magic (something we knew since Arah explorable Seer path).

In addition to this, it is suggested that there is a cap to how much magic a god can absorb, while there isn't a cap for the Elder Dragons:

Kormir: Balthazar was blinded by his pride. The dragons are beyond even the gods—a raw, primal force without equal.

The "dragons are beyond even the gods", yet Kormir, in the very same discussion, states that the Six Gods are indeed capable of defeating the Elder Dragons:

Kormir: We, the gods, saw there could be no victory in our inevitable conflict with the Elder Dragons.Kormir: Waging war with them could only lead to the destruction of Tyria—and we, the Six, would be the match that would start the blaze.Kormir: And so, we chose to withdraw from Tyria altogether, and spare this world further calamity... Or rather, most of us chose to.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Facing_the_Truth#In_the_Sanctum

This, to me, combined with how the Six Gods seem incapable of absorbing another god's power, and even Grenth, a demigod at the time, couldn't take in all of Dhuum's power (or so it seems), leads me to think the Six Gods have a cap on how much magic they can absorb. This would mean that a normal, full-fledged god could not contain the magic of an Elder Dragon. Balthazar could, in theory, but only because he was stripped of most of his power. It would be like filling a mostly-filled bowl (a god), or trying to fill a mostly-empty bowl (Balthazar), or trying to fill up a much larger bowl (Elder Dragons).

So it seems Balthazar was right in calling the other Gods "cowards" because if they all got together from the start and fought the Elder Dragons none of the current mishaps would have happened. It seems it's true that the Gods abandoned us and left us to be consumed by the Elder Dragons.

Nope. On top of the above, which you completely overlooked, you also overlooked the fact that the gods did not fully leave:

When the dragons rose, the gods realized a terrible truth: any effort to save the garden would instead destroy it...or them. If humanity was to endure under their guidance, it could not be here. Reluctantly, the gods withdrew. They had to find new soil to tend, that their faithful might someday see the full, resplendent bloom of this most glorious garden. Praise Kormir!https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Garden_of_the_Gods

The Six Gods are looking for a new world, with the stated intention of returning to bring "their faithful" to this new world. Much like they did with humanity ages ago.

Even if we argue that due to "something something" the Gods couldn't replace the Elder Dragons themselves it doesn't really change anything.It changes everything.

It's literally "they can" versus "they can't". If they can't replace the Elder Dragon, the world dies if the Elder Dragons die. Pure plain and simple.

Our conversation with Kormir proves they knew what killing the Elder Dragons would cause, ergo they must also know that the only real way to end the cycle is the find replacements.Indeed, it seems they know this ("The Forgotten told me much, but not everything... What did they tell the Six? What do the gods know that I do not?"). But while the Forgotten worked on a plan to get replacements, the Six Gods look for a place to take refugees so that they can save people while abandoning the world itself to the Elder Dragons.

So even if they couldn't do the job themselves they could have at least shared their knowledge with us from the start.

Plot device and/or "this lore didn't exist at the start but was thought up later on creating plot holes".

Same with Ogden right now. When we met him in Hidden Arcana and heard Vlast's voice and asked Ogden who that was, he refused to tell us because "it's not yet time". Ogden himself knew a shit ton more than he let on back in Season 2, yet told us nothing. He knew of Glint's Legacy, at least to some degree, as did the Zephyrite leaderships. But they never told us, even after we killed an Elder Dragon.

They could also provide us with "the means" on how to replace the Elder Dragons once we start killing them, they did that for Kormir so she could replace Abaddon. But no, they instead sat quietly on the side and now that things turned for the worse they made a run for it. Well, praise the Six

Technically, they did. They brought the Forgotten to the world, and the Forgotten created a purifying ritual that freed Glint from Kralkatorrik's control. Glint and her children were intended replacements for the Elder Dragons.

It's suspected that this very same ritual was also used on the cave of seeds that the Pale Tree came from, hence why she and Malyck's tree are free of Mordremoth's control. Which would mean that there are even more replacement potentials out there that we, the Commander, do not yet know about. In theory, Ogden and the Exalted should know, however. But like the whole 'don't kill Elder Dragons without a replacement dude' never coming up, neither has this.

Because plot device / plot hole!

@Hesacon.8735 said:The gods don't believe they could win a fight against the elder dragons, that's why they left Orr for the Mists in the first place.

False. Kormir stated that the outcome of a fight between gods and elder dragons would always result in the world's destruction, regardless of who won that fight. They knew full well they could win if they tried, but they knew full well that there was a chance they'd lose.

If they won, the world dies because The All is imbalanced. If they lost, the world dies because we now have six super-duper-charged Elder Dragons.

Also, they left Orr for the Mists millennia before the Elder Dragons began waking up. The Exodus occurred because of the devastation that happened when the Six Gods fought amongst each other. Which is the second point of Kormir denying direct assistance: the Six Gods, when they fight directly, are not capable of anything less than continent-shattering abilities.

When we prompted Kormir to fight against Balthazar personally, her mere temper tantrum that lasted seconds shattered the structure, created an internal thunderstorm, and replaced the sky with a void. The same thing that happened when Abaddon decided to wipe out the Forgotten Armada in his scripture. That was from Kormir getting a little pissed and recovering quickly. If she had fought against Balthazar, there wouldn't be a Vabbi left.

That was the entire point of her bringing up the two times Abaddon caused conflicts. When god fought god, a sea turned into a desert and a verdant coast turned into a toxic wasteland, irrecoverable. When mortals fought a god, the world was damaged but able to recover from that damage.

She was telling us that if Tyria were to survive this conflict, it must be mortals to fight Balthazar and the Elder Dragons, not gods. Because gods fighting will always cause irreversible devastation. Most likely, that would be what happens if two Elder Dragons fought.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:When we prompted Kormir to fight against Balthazar personally, her mere temper tantrum that lasted seconds shattered the structure, created an internal thunderstorm, and replaced the sky with a void. The same thing that happened when Abaddon decided to wipe out the Forgotten Armada in his scripture. That was from Kormir getting a little pissed and recovering quickly. If she had fought against Balthazar, there wouldn't be a Vabbi left.

That was the entire point of her bringing up the two times Abaddon caused conflicts. When god fought god, a sea turned into a desert and a verdant coast turned into a toxic wasteland, irrecoverable. When mortals fought a god, the world was damaged but able to recover from that damage.

She was telling us that if Tyria were to survive this conflict, it must be mortals to fight Balthazar and the Elder Dragons, not gods. Because gods fighting will always cause irreversible devastation. Most likely, that would be what happens if two Elder Dragons fought.

Still makes no sense, though. Anyone that powerful, mortals don't stand a chance against in a real fight that they aren't scripted to somehow win. A being that can turn an ocean into a desert can vaporize any mortal with a snap of their fingers, no matter how many magic swords that mortal is holding.

And ignoring that, while it's understandable that a god might hold back their power if they felt that their opponents were no threat, once they actually started to lose the fight they would bring out the big guns, and then you'd have at least half the level of devastation of a god-on-god fight.

@"perilisk.1874" said:Still makes no sense, though. Anyone that powerful, mortals don't stand a chance against in a real fight that they aren't scripted to somehow win. A being that can turn an ocean into a desert can vaporize any mortal with a snap of their fingers, no matter how many magic swords that mortal is holding.

And ignoring that, while it's understandable that a god might hold back their power if they felt that their opponents were no threat, once they actually started to lose the fight they would bring out the big guns, and then you'd have at least half the level of devastation of a god-on-god fight.

Which is where the "we never fight an actual god at full power" comes in. Abaddon had his power not stripped (like Dhuum and Balthazar) but sealed behind eight locks, only three of which were unlocked during the course of the campaign, so he was effectively fighting at 3/8th the strength, and the party had a protection blessing from the gods (I like to believe that protection was stripped if we danced in front of Abaddon and that's how he can one-shot the entire party then).

For Balthazar, while powerful, he was stripped of all his divine power, and all power he had when we fought and lost to him in PoF was from the Maguuma Bloodstone, Primordus, and Jormag - when we fought him in Rata Novus, he only had the power of the Maguuma Bloodstone, and was far, far weaker. And when we fought him at Kodash Bazaar, we had Aurene's protective magic and Sohothin, which was his own sword when he was a god (and, though never stated, I'm pretty sure we still had the Ascalonian crown that unlocked Sohothin's full potential thus explaining how Rytlock never got to use such power).

Dhuum, both times we fought him, was the same as Balthazar. His original power was stripped, though he kept enough magic to avoid death, and the majority of his strength came from other sources. We also had the Seven Reapers helping us out (and Desmina who toyed with the ritual the second time).

We never fought a god at full power, and if Kormir stepped in, it wouldn't be a "god fighting a god" but "a god fighting a former god". Kormir would win hands down, but with a lot of devastation around her even if she held back.

In all honesty, the only fault to be blamed on Kormir is the fact she was needlessly cryptic about what we could use to match Balthazar's strength - Sohothin - and she could have explained Kralkatorrik's weakness, sparring us a run-around-the-desert funtime.

The question just falls to the Elder Dragon fights, and why those don't result in the Pact getting their butts handed to them with a snap of the dragons' claws. But that's actually explained - with Zhaitan we're weakening it the entire Orrian campaign both in the story and open world metas, so like Abaddon, Dhuum, and Balthazar, it's not at full fighting strength (we even find out later, in Arah Seer path, that the Six Gods had drained Zhaitan of magic while it slept, making it even weaker than we thought it'd be); with Mordremoth, his attention is divided between multiple fronts, so he couldn't give his full effort to any one battle, thus allowing us to take him down.

I'm kind of curious how they'll handle that matter with Kralkatorrik.

@Aaron Ansari.1604 said:While I agree that the rest of the gods clearly didn't act in our best interests, I don't think that equates to Balthazar being the right one for the job. Even if he could take on the power of Kralkatorrik safely, as a general rule, someone who willingly massacres uninvolved innocents as part of a personal vendetta isn't the kind of person you want to give that power to.

I just assumed he created the forged to stop the commander and his allies from reaching him and foiling his plans.And to be fair he did ask you to join him by sending his herald to you.

I always had a theory about it..What if you actually accepted his offer and joined him and then he would send the forged back to Vabbi to help him fight Kralkatorrik.As mad as he was he have never showen any intent to harm anyone besides the dragons like it was the only thing that is important to himCould have been easier for the commander to work with balthazar to achieve this goal and make sure he doesn't step on anyone by accident..

@InvaGir.9158 said:

@"Aaron Ansari.1604" said:While I agree that the rest of the gods clearly didn't act in our best interests, I don't think that equates to Balthazar being the right one for the job. Even if he could take on the power of Kralkatorrik safely, as a general rule, someone who willingly massacres uninvolved innocents as part of a personal vendetta isn't the kind of person you want to give that power to.

The Forged were also used in tracking down Vlast and constructing the Warbeast out of Branded ore.

By the point of Path of Fire, we really couldn't work with Balthazar, as he was indescriminately massacreing people left and right to fill the ranks of the Forged, and we knew that killing Elder Dragons was bad. But honestly, the beginning of our conflict with Balthazar was pointless. "We know Lazarus is fake, so despite the fact Fake Lazarus is willing to work with us, let us antagonize him and forcibly reveal who he is when he's inches away from a tool that would help him succeed in a plan we both intend to go through with".

Granted right after we learn we can't kill another Elder Dragon, but at the time we didn't know - our entire reason for chasing Balthazar to Draconis Mons was "we pissed him off, and because of that he stole something from us, so let's go deck him in the schnoz".

Honestly, really could have been done better... But that's Season 3 for you. About as nonsensical a plot as Season 1, just shinier and way too compacted (like HoT!).

@"Rikimaru.7890" said:Hmmm now who could fit that role? Oh wait don't "The Six" share their powers with mortal races? If one thing Guild Wars taught us about the Gods is that each profession draws its power from a god/s. Like Necromancers gain their power from Grenth, Warriors from Balthazar, Mesmers from Lyssa, while some draw their power from several like Elementalists who gain power of Water from Grenth, Fire from Balthazar, Air from Dwayna and Earth from Melandru.

the gods do not actually share their power, magic existed on Tyria long before the gods came

what the gods did was take the magic existed on Tyria and infused the humans

what you can possibly say, magic is a form of valuable resource, and the god travels across the mist to seek out new worlds with a rich resource of magic to sustain themselves and their followers

@InvaGir.9158 said:

@"Aaron Ansari.1604" said:While I agree that the rest of the gods clearly didn't act in our best interests, I don't think that equates to Balthazar being the right one for the job. Even if he could take on the power of Kralkatorrik safely, as a general rule, someone who willingly massacres uninvolved innocents as part of a personal vendetta isn't the kind of person you want to give that power to.

I mean... that's what we start the expansion on. The Crystal Oasis part of the story is largely dealing with the Forged who've been sent to cut down civilian targets so their souls can be turned into more Forged by force. To quote the Herald, from the parts of the fight where she runs away from you to pound on cowering villagers: "Every life I claim is another conscript for Balthazar's army. They will be remade in his honor, just as I have been."

The gods fear the consequences of direct action.. Kormir makes this clear during the PoF storyline.

When the six defeated (not killed) Abaddon the amount of magic unleashed by his fall turned an ocean into a desert and a once fertile and propserous land into the Desolation.This single event made the six vow to never interfere on Tyria again.. at least not directly using their own immense powers.

If the gods did attack the Elder Dragons they would not only be risking their lives against beings powerful enough to pose a threat to them but they would also be putting the entire world at risk from the fallout.

Balthazar was only right in that the Dragons need to be destroyed.. his methods however exposed him as a cruel and vicious god who cares more about his own revenge and glory than he does about the lives of his followers.He destroyed his reputation when he took action.. many remained loyal to him but most lost all faith in him when he slaughtered the innocent to further his agenda.He could have been a powerful ally.. but his arrogance and literal god complex eventually destroyed him.