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Stealth MUST change for dead eye in wvw


LaFurion.3167

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A day or two ago I posted this thread while I was at work. Had mused over my head why I wasn't really enjoying thief currently in wvw, and my first point was about how this expansions dead eye was super cheesy and gimmicky to play, running a one shot build that had absolutely zero use in zergs, and only hid in stealth in "1v1's" or "duels" and just tried to one shot you.

here is the thread - https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/64756/i-dont-like-the-state-of-thief

Well, guess what. This is what I ran into today. I turned my computer on, turned my shadow play on to try get more clips for my 2nd video I am working on, and this happened.

I mean, seriously. What the FUCK. FUCKING FUCKING SHIT FUCK. I know this will be replaced by the word for small fluffy cat but FUCK. FUCK this shit. why the FUCK do i have to deal with this fucking SHIT FUCK.

There is no reaction time. ZERO. The first time I have a "2v2" with the scourge, I counter engage after being rezzed on the kneeling dead eye get him really low but he stealths and avoids my 3rd auto chain (attacked twice and both hits didnt connect). Then INSTANTLY dead again.

2nd time is even more of a joke.

I want a developer to see this and tell me to my face that this is intended. You guys are responsible for releasing this spec into WvW at release which forced you to change dead eye into this; THEN you punished other stealth classes by adding the marked debuff, which STILL DOES NOTHING against deadeyes; they can perma stealth. There is literally zero tell that they are around you, then you have 0.00001 second to react and avoid a one shot.

Seriously. Somebody tell me I am overreacting? I don't understand it. I mean I am full marauder gear, and that is simply to bring my hp up to par with what it SHOULD be after all this power creep. How a thief literally one shot me with 0 tell?

Watch the video again in slow motion to see how absurd this is.

THE WHOLE PROBLEM COULD BE SOLVED if there was a tell that deadeye was stealthing, like a HUGE tell, OR if you removed the ability to stealth for more than 3 seconds at a time. 3 sec stealth followed by 3 seconds of revealed no matter what, excluding shadow refuge/mesmer invis.

I mean lol. I logged off this beautiful game after this.

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@LaFurion.3167 said:THEN you punished other stealth classes by adding the marked debuff, which STILL DOES NOTHING against deadeyes; they can perma stealth.

a deadeye aswell cannot permastealth while marked, its affected the same way if not worse by that change as it well uses more stealth so more stealth prevention will affect them more.

Seriously. Somebody tell me I am overreacting? I don't understand it. I mean I am full marauder gear, and that is simply to bring my hp up to par with what it SHOULD be after all this power creep. How a thief literally one shot me with 0 tell?

you are not full marauder gear.THE WHOLE PROBLEM COULD BE SOLVED if there was a tell that deadeye was stealthing, like a HUGE tell, OR if you removed the ability to stealth for more than 3 seconds at a time. 3 sec stealth followed by 3 seconds of revealed no matter what, excluding shadow refuge/mesmer invis.

after the first fight i think it was pretty obvious that there are 2 deadeyes stealthing, still didnt stop you from just walking in them.@LaFurion.3167 said:No class in the game should be able to permanently stealth for free.

there is a cost to every instance of stealth.

=> rune of durability and you survive this and considering the pressure you did put on one of them after, i think you might even kill one of them in 1 vs 1 after an attempt. using d/x you can also oneshot them as core or daredevil btw.tho i must say it does seem to take ages for you to load character models, thats very unfortunate.

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@DeadlySynz.3471 said:The easy fix is to not allow stealth while in combat, the way it should have been done in the first place. Sure stealth is fine for the first surprise hit, but after you're in combat.. sorry buddy, it's do or die, no stealthy and runny for you.

um.... cloak and dagger? what happens to dagger off hand thief then? stealthing in combat is fine only for 3-4 seconds at a time. it should be a small disengage, not free reset

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@LaFurion.3167 said:also I am full marauder, except

yep. i mean we can see your HP just fine :)but really rune of durability and that hit would be 10-11k + you would have a bit more HP from the rune, then you can right away go to counterpressure them. killing such squishy targets on engage was mostly possible for the games history it is not something new or deadeye exclusive.

if you want a 'fix' to it, ask for changes to assassins signet. somehow pretty much all thief oneshot builds utilize it.

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I really don't feel like writing a novel to explain my opinion and the objective state of DE right now, but I may return later if the conversation gets interesting.

For now, I'll contribute 2 screenshots from the same DE that was in the OP's video that hit me last night. Unfortunately, I wasn't recording to show what happened, but it was about the same experience as the OP. I knew there was a Thief some where in the vicinity of our keep but I wasn't sure how close or far he was from me when I ventured out. I was 2 shot the first time and the second time I was quick enough to enter Shroud with 2k HP left. I was finished off shortly after. I was initially using Corrosive Poison Cloud because I thought he was going to be using Rifle. I have no idea why I swapped to Corrupt Boon but, there wasn't much else that could help me anyway.

For now, that's all I'll leave it at because I have to get going to work shortly and I'm honestly too lazy to write anymore. You can observe the damage from the combat log for yourselves.

v4Vqd6R.jpg7thAuhD.jpg

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A lot of you seem to think that I am overreacting, and that the situation was manageable. Perhaps this is true; I will try to properly explain my frustration.

It's not that I died in this instance, however frustrating. It's a mixture of things that make the wvw roaming experience, the ONLY role of thief, incredibly unfun for everybody coming up against dead eye "roamers".

Yeah sure, the 2nd time I knew that there were 2 thieves in the area. But there should be a TELL for when they are going to do their one shot attempt. Mesmer at least cant stealth permanently. Deadeyes can. They literally roam around the map permanently invisible.

What if I am roaming around? Does that mean that the first time, I HAVE to die? this is okay? I have zero counter play to the first opener, and the only way to deal with it is to "know that they are somewhere on the map and could one shot me at any given time at any given place"?

Its really not fun.

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@DeadlySynz.3471 said:The easy fix is to not allow stealth while in combat, the way it should have been done in the first place. Sure stealth is fine for the first surprise hit, but after you're in combat.. sorry buddy, it's do or die, no stealthy and runny for you.

It would be nice, but then Thief would need a massive rework and we are unlikely to ever see this happening.

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@Jeknar.6184 said:

@DeadlySynz.3471 said:The easy fix is to not allow stealth while in combat, the way it should have been done in the first place. Sure stealth is fine for the first surprise hit, but after you're in combat.. sorry buddy, it's do or die, no stealthy and runny for you.

It would be nice, but then Thief would need a massive rework and we are unlikely to ever see this happening.

and decoy from mesmer would need rework too. and torch 4 for mesmer and ranger longbow 3 etc etc. stealthing in combat is fine; perma stealth leading up to it and during is not.

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Permastealth is bad. I wish they'd do it like WAR did. Stealth was not full invis in WAR. You blended well, but could be seen if someone was looking. OR perhaps damage from stealth could be reduced for the first strike, attacking applies revealed, or something other than the current model, while fun some, is terrible for most.

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@LaFurion.3167 said:

@DeadlySynz.3471 said:The easy fix is to not allow stealth while in combat, the way it should have been done in the first place. Sure stealth is fine for the first surprise hit, but after you're in combat.. sorry buddy, it's do or die, no stealthy and runny for you.

It would be nice, but then Thief would need a massive rework and we are unlikely to ever see this happening.

and decoy from mesmer would need rework too. and torch 4 for mesmer and ranger longbow 3 etc etc. stealthing in combat is fine; perma stealth leading up to it and during is not.

Yes... Honestly I would prefer Stealth didn't stack duration so you could still have uses for it in combat for dissengaging or other stuff... Stealth skills would problably need their durations adjusted (Principally Thief due the stealth attack mechanics) in order for that be balanced.

Or they could just rework Silent Scope again into not a stupid design and remove the reliance DE have in stealth by giving them other defensive mechanisms.

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@DeadlySynz.3471 said:The easy fix is to not allow stealth while in combat, the way it should have been done in the first place. Sure stealth is fine for the first surprise hit, but after you're in combat.. sorry buddy, it's do or die, no stealthy and runny for you.

@"Kaiser.9873" said:Permastealth is bad. I wish they'd do it like WAR did. Stealth was not full invis in WAR. You blended well, but could be seen if someone was looking. OR perhaps damage from stealth could be reduced for the first strike, attacking applies revealed, or something other than the current model, while fun some, is terrible for most.

I have made similar suggestions to this in the past and will always advocate for stealth to be a predator style view to everyone, not just yourself and allies.

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I don't know why people (deadeye mains) keep defending this abomination.

Their answer is "stack some toughness on your gear and you won't get oneshot anymore hihihi git gud l2p".

But they don't understand that to survive a zero tell malicious backstab (like happens in the video) you need something above 2600 armor and 20k hp, and not every profession can "waste" important offensive stats to use toughness or vitality.

A core thief, or power mesmer, even some guardian radiance builds or any other offensive profession can't afford to use toughness in their builds, or their dps and effectivness drop very low to the ground and it's not worth just to survive a stupid malicious backstab which it won't oneshot you anymore, but still will drain you 10-15k hp (half of your life) without counter reaction.

The new marked system seems a luck joke, when I need 2 seconds stealth on my profession I am always marked and I cannot stealth, while the enemy deadeyes seems perma stealthing same as before without being marked, weird luck maybe.

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One way to rework Stealth mechanic is to have it split into two types:

Type 1 Stealth involves "Strategic Stealth", this is where DE stealth should come in. It may be cast pre-emptively to set up ganks and ambushes. For this to work, units under the Type 1 Stealth should appear as "transparent" if an enemy goes within the range threshold in relation to the unit under the effects of Type 1 Stealth.

Type 2 Stealth is "Tactical Stealth", this is mainly the during combat Stealth used as a reprieve or to reposition while in combat. Stealth from specific sources should have a reprieve so that S/D and D/P Thieves will not be affected because they need Stealth mechanics during combat.

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@"LaFurion.3167" said:A lot of you seem to think that I am overreacting, and that the situation was manageable. Perhaps this is true; I will try to properly explain my frustration.

It's not that I died in this instance, however frustrating. It's a mixture of things that make the wvw roaming experience, the ONLY role of thief, incredibly unfun for everybody coming up against dead eye "roamers".

Yeah sure, the 2nd time I knew that there were 2 thieves in the area. But there should be a TELL for when they are going to do their one shot attempt. Mesmer at least cant stealth permanently. Deadeyes can. They literally roam around the map permanently invisible.

What if I am roaming around? Does that mean that the first time, I HAVE to die? this is okay? I have zero counter play to the first opener, and the only way to deal with it is to "know that they are somewhere on the map and could one shot me at any given time at any given place"?

Its really not fun.

No, youre not overreacting much. Keep in mind that people who main this atrocity of a class will defend it, no matter what. Especially in the forums. Stealth has no downsides in wvw. No slower movement, no reduced damage, you can spam it if your class allows it while in combat if youre away from sentries and towers with the watchtower buff. Imagine new players coming to wvw and getting oneshot by this, theyre certainly not gonna stay for long.

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Bu bu in the other thread thieves keep saying that thieves cant 1v1 despite stealth, that they are unviable in WvW?! What is this?!?! Is somebody lying??? WHAT IS GOING ON!!!

So glass cannon thief can gank other glass cannons. Who knew?

...

We all know. Including thieves in denial. The fact that they are two in the OP means they are fully dedicated to ganking and know exactly what they are doing, that's not any "random" thief encounter. Plus you can tell by the dagger that one of them is hardcore (duuuuuuh).

D/p backstabbers are a dangerous threat to pretty much anyone but going at them with another thief in plain sight... that's just a poor choice of tactics. The situation clearly demanded someone else to be bait - a bunker or someone with passives that can handle the initial assault. If they would have been a class great at killing surprise thieves that would also have been a bonus. Would you have won that 2v2? Who knows. You'd have had a better chance though.

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