New WvW ability track to combat stealth — Guild Wars 2 Forums

New WvW ability track to combat stealth

EremiteAngel.9765EremiteAngel.9765 Member ✭✭✭✭
edited January 5, 2019 in WvW

We've had target painter and stealth traps and marked reveals which is a good start but too situational.
It doesn't solve the real problem of insane spike damage from stealth which allows for very little reaction time and makes for unhealthy gameplay.
The main issue here isn't the damage, but that stealth attacks have extremely reduced tells and gives opponents very little reaction time.
It is however easier for the damage to be reduced for stealth attacks across all classes and give some readily accessible counterplays, rather than to change the stealth mechanics for every class.

Give us a new WvW ability track to combat stealth.

WvW Stealth Mastery

  1. Reduce damage taken from stealth attacks by 5% (3 ability points)
  2. Reduce damage taken from stealth attacks by 10% (7 ability points)
  3. Reduce damage taken from stealth attacks by 15% (10 ability points)
  4. Stealth foes are revealed for 3 seconds when attacking you (15 ability points)
  5. Gain a permanent sentry marked ability in a 600 radius around you that reveals stealth foes (20 ability points)

A Hermit's Tale - To The Edge of the Mists [Link Here]

New WvW ability track to combat stealth 53 votes

Yes
32%
godfat.2604gebrechen.5643Khailyn.6248Mazreal Blackknight.1564xitoriki.9758Zaraki.5784Nimrod.9240K THEN.5162Kaiser.9873EremiteAngel.9765Burnfall.9573Balthazzarr.1349LordEnki.9283steki.1478UfoCoffee.2084dynomite.5834Exturias.9634 17 votes
No
58%
BlaqueFyre.5678Solori.6025Sigmoid.7082AikijinX.6258ShamRain.4168LetoII.3782Pterikdactyl.7630ventusthunder.5067Eternalight.4708aleron.1438Dashielle.7135Gorani.7205alchemyst.2165CrimsonNeonite.1048Jeknar.6184Zero.3871Bigpapasmurf.5623apharma.3741Celsith.2753No One.3716 31 votes
Others
9%
Stand The Wall.6987Curunen.8729Kylden Ar.3724Gemnaid.4219oOStaticOo.9467 5 votes

Comments

  • Zero.3871Zero.3871 Member ✭✭✭
    No

    that would favor People with higher rank in wvw since other People,especially new one, wouldnt be able to skill that. and i think a pvp System should not reward Players IN COMBAT SITUATIONS for just playing longer than a new one. back in the days we had already ability tracks that grant you more stats and they got removed. so i doubt anet will create a new one.

  • Kovu.7560Kovu.7560 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 5, 2019

    I do feel stealth is a tad more potent in wvw than in pvp due to the increased space for mobility-based professions to work with and the fact that you're not spending the majority of the game trying to camp a circle.
    That said, I don't think stealth needs to be shot down in such a way. It already has plenty of counters, the biggest being the ability for attacks to track through stealth so long as they have been initiated before the target stealthed. (Actually I find that QUITE annoying while on my thief.)
    Other aspects of mesmers in particular need to be looked at but I don't think its really the stealth that's pissing people off. (For instance I'd feel a lot more vulnerable on my thief if I lost my maneuverability, rather than my stealth.)

    If we're going to buff mechanics that combat stealth, buff the revealing effects on all professions to not require active targeting. (i.e. into a radius AoE) That would actually be a decent change to Sic 'Em on ranger for instance -- nerf the damage bonus for soulbeast but make the reveal an AoE.

    "The main issue here isn't the damage" -- the spike damage might be the issue. Several professions have the ability to 100->0 even somewhat tankier characters and even if doing so requires full glass, traits and putting half of their bar on cooldown its still going to feel pretty lame and gimmicky to the player on the receiving end. I've said this before but I feel since the release of the expansions the bar between high damage fights and never ending sustain fights has grown on both ends. Its an unfortunate side effect of a game with more potent traitlines and lots of new stat combinations. Some argue those "one-shot builds" exist entirely to counter people who just want to tank all day.

    I don't care if someone stealths around all day, but I do feel pretty salty when they two shot my marauder's gear. Mesmers, thieves, rangers and warriors are all in this particular boat.

    ~ Kovu

    Fort Aspenwood,
    Ranger, Necromancer.

  • Burnfall.9573Burnfall.9573 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 5, 2019
    Yes

    @cobbah.3102 said:
    Simple solution just delete stealth ,not required in game. Happy New Year!!!

    Not a simple solution but a critical solution to completely remove stealth in the game

  • Yes

    I'm all for new stuff to spend my unused points on. I don't play stealth so won't phase me.

  • DemonSeed.3528DemonSeed.3528 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Lol this is a very one-sided skewed post XD, entertaining though.

  • Warkind.6745Warkind.6745 Member ✭✭✭
    No

    Imagine if there was a WvW traitline that made a percentage of your attacks unblockable, or that gave you condition mitigation. WvW abilities shouldn't give such overt advantages in fights.

  • EremiteAngel.9765EremiteAngel.9765 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 5, 2019
    Yes

    @Warkind.6745 said:
    Imagine if there was a WvW traitline that made a percentage of your attacks unblockable, or that gave you condition mitigation. WvW abilities shouldn't give such overt advantages in fights.

    That would be true unless stealth was broken in the first place.
    If you see condition damage for example, anet compensated for it by introducing strong sigils/runes and tuning certain skills across most classes to enable them to deal with condition damage.
    Which is kinda why the meta is shifting more towards Power/hybrid builds.

    The same can be done for stealth.
    We are getting more methods of reveals on skills but it is terribly insufficient.
    It has to address stealth across every class though and not just biased against thieves.
    It would be too much balancing to address stealth across every class, but it can be addressed via an external means just like how condition damage was address.

    We could get it through sigils or runes. Or we could get it through a WvW ability track.
    Stealth was OP to begin with just like SOI boonshare was on a Chrono.
    We are just reigning it in to have more parity =)

    A Hermit's Tale - To The Edge of the Mists [Link Here]

  • LetoII.3782LetoII.3782 Member ✭✭✭✭
    No

    Enough already
    If theif were half as godmode as it's portraid on the forums, there'd be more than three per side.

    [HUNT] the predatory instinct

  • Says problem isn't damage of stealth attacks, proposes solution that reduces damage of stealth attacks. Alrighty then.

    All sarcasm aside, I'd rather see something from the thief forums implemented; marked given to all classes, replacing reveal skills, and given to stuff like deadeye's mark etc too. Say a 10s duration on marked applied by players on an minimum of a 30s cooldown. That way it's not dependant on WvW rank, the more oppressive reveal skills (sic 'em, lock on) get toned down a bit so they're not just death sentences and stealth is still worth using (just harder to use, impossible to stack and heavily punishes taking too long), while also increasing the access to stealth counterplay to all classes.

    I'm also not against the idea of new WvW abilities, nor do I mind having more counterplay to stealth. I just dislike the idea of making everyone mini sentries with no skill or player interaction involved. You should still have to land a skill or something in order to counter a game mechanic like stealth, trying to get it for free with no effort on the player's part is just plain lazy design in my opinion.

    Critical Kit, Deadeye.

  • I'd rather see some solutions based around Veil Sight. The current Reveal based solutions are inconsistently effective, allow groups to capitalize on the effect (one person reveals, entire group sees target), and deny stealth attacks. Veil Sight options would only allow the player who builds for it to see the stealthed player. The stealthed player would still be in stealth, so they would be able to utilize stealth attacks and other stealth benefits.

  • Warkind.6745Warkind.6745 Member ✭✭✭
    No

    @EremiteAngel.9765 said:

    @Warkind.6745 said:
    Imagine if there was a WvW traitline that made a percentage of your attacks unblockable, or that gave you condition mitigation. WvW abilities shouldn't give such overt advantages in fights.

    That would be true unless stealth was broken in the first place.
    If you see condition damage for example, anet compensated for it by introducing strong sigils/runes and tuning certain skills across most classes to enable them to deal with condition damage.
    Which is kinda why the meta is shifting more towards Power/hybrid builds.

    The same can be done for stealth.
    We are getting more methods of reveals on skills but it is terribly insufficient.
    It has to address stealth across every class though and not just biased against thieves.
    It would be too much balancing to address stealth across every class, but it can be addressed via an external means just like how condition damage was address.

    We could get it through sigils or runes. Or we could get it through a WvW ability track.
    Stealth was OP to begin with just like SOI boonshare was on a Chrono.
    We are just reigning it in to have more parity =)

    An on hit sigil that applies reveal would be a somewhat decent idea worth more discussion since it wouldn't completely negate the mechanic and would require the sacrifice of another beneficial sigil. Your suggestion is just asking for an easy mode against thieves and mesmers.

    There is a reason Chrono wasn't balanced through WvW traits.

  • Kylden Ar.3724Kylden Ar.3724 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 5, 2019
    Others

    Other because no, we don't need new complicated mechanics when easier solutions that don't require revamping entire traitlines have been suggested.

    Leader of PvE/WvW Havoc Guild - Tyrian Adventure Corporation [TACO] - Kaineng since the start, and till KN is no more.

    Do not fear simplification of the game, there is elegance in simplicity that allows more time for playing and less time building.

  • Strider Pj.2193Strider Pj.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Why make it public?

  • Jeknar.6184Jeknar.6184 Member ✭✭✭✭
    No

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:
    Why make it public?

    Why not make it public?

    Ferguson's Crossing Mithril Scout (Rank 4789) - PvP Phoenix (Rank 72) - 30k Achievement Points
    Calamis Fatima, Suzuhara Suzuka, Hanna Flintlocke, Kawagima, Lilian Mistwalker, Bjarl of Souls, Sabetha Deadeye, Kelvena Riverstream, Zallha Wildhunt

  • Strider Pj.2193Strider Pj.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jeknar.6184 said:

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:
    Why make it public?

    Why not make it public?

    It inherently includes bias. Most polls that are public are trying to get THEIR point across, not actually trying to poll the forum.

    It was a question. You answered a question with a question, likely because it was directed at the OP?

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭
    No

    A thought.

    Just a small thought.

    It's really just a glance of an idea.

    Maybe damage itself is too high?

    Also someone will say it, yes sustain, boons mitigation etc is too high as well. It all needs toning down.

  • Khailyn.6248Khailyn.6248 Member ✭✭✭
    Yes

    While I like some of the earlier bonuses, I dont like the final one. Also if this did go into game I would ask for other effects that have been added, to combat stealth, be pulled back a bit.

  • because thieves are obnoxious and broken.

    Stealth needs to be removed from the game.

  • RedShark.9548RedShark.9548 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I dont have a problem with being attacked out of stealth, its part of the experience that is wvw. The problem is that those classes have so much stealth and mobillity that tzey dont have to commit, they jzst jump you and if you survive and retaliate they just pull back and try again

  • @RedShark.9548 said:
    I dont have a problem with being attacked out of stealth, its part of the experience that is wvw. The problem is that those classes have so much stealth and mobillity that tzey dont have to commit, they jzst jump you and if you survive and retaliate they just pull back and try again

    I concur. Lethal stealth attacks would be more acceptable if they were "do or die" instead of "do or flee and try again later" like they are now.

  • Burnfall.9573Burnfall.9573 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 5, 2019
    Yes

    @Solori.6025 said:
    Why do thieves need this mega middle finger?

    To thief-

    'You either make yourself accountable
    or
    You will be made accountable
    By your circumstances'

  • No

    @OP
    The mastery system doesn't need this type of system. Having it wouldn't solve anything. However burst damage received per target could be played around with. Jumped by say a mes/engie or thief/ranger etc, taking the entire burst of each individual attacking you is what i see people struggling with. Not so much stealth itself. but yeah stealth has counters & not everyone uses them, just like some stands still waiting to die and others fight.

    I've noticed a lot of lazy fighting from opponents lately which doesn't help the perception of stealth or the damage. No real movement happening or helping allies. 10-15 getting destroyed at an objective by much fewer at times just shows how relaxed people get then complain when they die...strafe, dodge, LoS & you might avoid that damage.

    Home Sweet {Home} - Sea of Sorrows

  • EremiteAngel.9765EremiteAngel.9765 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Yes

    @Solori.6025 said:
    Why do thieves need this mega middle finger?

    You might have missed seeing this posted by @LaFurion.3167
    And no this isn't just an issue with thieves.
    It is an issue for invis across all classes.

    A Hermit's Tale - To The Edge of the Mists [Link Here]

  • EremiteAngel.9765EremiteAngel.9765 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Yes

    @Solori.6025 said:

    @EremiteAngel.9765 said:

    @Solori.6025 said:
    Why do thieves need this mega middle finger?

    You might have missed seeing this posted by @LaFurion.3167
    And no this isn't just an issue with thieves.
    It is an issue for invis across all classes.

    So instead of fixing one build. We nerf the entire class and others that use stealth. Ok...So then it wouldn't be out of line to ask for a line that makes it so no one can gain life force when they are within 1200 range of you right? How about one that makes it so you can't use invulns or blocks?
    How about a line that makes it so no one heals?

    Or. We could fix the one build.

    actually this just happens to be a video of a thief doing it.
    There are also soulbeast maul builds that does that.
    And shatter burst combo from invis done by mes that can one-shot or almost 1-shot within a second.

    Problem isn't the damage, but when it is done from invis, there is so little tells and gives opponents almost no reaction time.
    It is easier to reduce the damage from stealth though than try and fix every class because it affects non-stealth builds too.
    Of course if they are up for more work, then we could do things like making reveals more accessible across all classes and make skills or runes or sigils give an aoe reveal effect etc.

    A Hermit's Tale - To The Edge of the Mists [Link Here]

  • DemonSeed.3528DemonSeed.3528 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I think if changes are going to be made, would it not anger people more if they still get killed while the enemy was fully visible? If that happens, what then?

  • Shadowcat.2680Shadowcat.2680 Member ✭✭✭
    No

    Instead of making players into sentries with marked, the final bonus could be for enemies to automatically fall out of WvW when they come within a 600 radius of a player who's on their home map or in their server's section of ebg.

  • Sounds like a great track! And another Track please which will remove all CC given to thieves by other classes completely and ignores super speedy pew pew damage.

  • Gorani.7205Gorani.7205 Member ✭✭✭
    No

    No, not because I like stealth (I actually hat those ambushes + the "I can reset myself whenever I like" stuff), but I think that no WvW ability should target a single skill or game mechanic.

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Others

    ppl without stealth hate us cuz they aint us
    troo storey

    pew~

  • NuhDah.9812NuhDah.9812 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 6, 2019

    @EremiteAngel.9765 said:

    @Solori.6025 said:

    @EremiteAngel.9765 said:

    @Solori.6025 said:
    Why do thieves need this mega middle finger?

    You might have missed seeing this posted by @LaFurion.3167
    And no this isn't just an issue with thieves.
    It is an issue for invis across all classes.

    So instead of fixing one build. We nerf the entire class and others that use stealth. Ok...So then it wouldn't be out of line to ask for a line that makes it so no one can gain life force when they are within 1200 range of you right? How about one that makes it so you can't use invulns or blocks?
    How about a line that makes it so no one heals?

    Or. We could fix the one build.

    actually this just happens to be a video of a thief doing it.
    There are also soulbeast maul builds that does that.
    And shatter burst combo from invis done by mes that can one-shot or almost 1-shot within a second.

    Problem isn't the damage, but when it is done from invis, there is so little tells and gives opponents almost no reaction time.
    It is easier to reduce the damage from stealth though than try and fix every class because it affects non-stealth builds too.
    Of course if they are up for more work, then we could do things like making reveals more accessible across all classes and make skills or runes or sigils give an aoe reveal effect etc.

    Actually in that video there were 2 thieves, and also the person in the video didn't even try to avoid taking dmg, just ran in there the seconnd time, without baiting or trying to anticipate any attack on a profession thief hard couners, and expecting to not be bursted down like they were... you see the relevance of that video. One lone person going willingly to their death expecting a sign from god to save them...

    On the other side if a thief approaches a zerg filled with necros without any plan they will melt even faster... even together with other allies. It's just what it is. Necros are better at zerging, thieves are better at roaming. No hard feelings.

  • Curunen.8729Curunen.8729 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Others

    Am of the opinion that stealth should be independently reworked some time in the game's future, rather than over complicating with another layer, also favouring rank over new players.

    Never dodge while dazed (EM handicap) | My ears, how are you! | Kourna Jackrabbit for default Springer

  • NuhDah.9812NuhDah.9812 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 6, 2019

    delete this

  • EremiteAngel.9765EremiteAngel.9765 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Yes

    @NuhDah.9812 said:

    @EremiteAngel.9765 said:

    @Solori.6025 said:

    @EremiteAngel.9765 said:

    @Solori.6025 said:
    Why do thieves need this mega middle finger?

    You might have missed seeing this posted by @LaFurion.3167
    And no this isn't just an issue with thieves.
    It is an issue for invis across all classes.

    So instead of fixing one build. We nerf the entire class and others that use stealth. Ok...So then it wouldn't be out of line to ask for a line that makes it so no one can gain life force when they are within 1200 range of you right? How about one that makes it so you can't use invulns or blocks?
    How about a line that makes it so no one heals?

    Or. We could fix the one build.

    actually this just happens to be a video of a thief doing it.
    There are also soulbeast maul builds that does that.
    And shatter burst combo from invis done by mes that can one-shot or almost 1-shot within a second.

    Problem isn't the damage, but when it is done from invis, there is so little tells and gives opponents almost no reaction time.
    It is easier to reduce the damage from stealth though than try and fix every class because it affects non-stealth builds too.
    Of course if they are up for more work, then we could do things like making reveals more accessible across all classes and make skills or runes or sigils give an aoe reveal effect etc.

    Actually in that video there were 2 thieves, and also the person in the video didn't even try to avoid taking dmg, just ran in there the seconnd time, without baiting or trying to anticipate any attack on a profession thief hard couners, and expecting to not be bursted down like they were... you see the relevance of that video. One lone person going willingly to their death expecting a sign from god to save them...

    On the other side if a thief approaches a zerg filled with necros without any plan they will melt even faster... even together with other allies. It's just what it is. Necros are better at zerging, thieves are better at roaming. No hard feelings.

    I agree with your analysis of the video.
    The thief definitely could have done more knowing that there were two 1-shot deadeyes in that localized area between the spawn and the keep.
    The two deadeyes were obviously tapping the keep and 1-shotting players running out of spawn.
    They could have handled thing a lot better.
    However this doesn't mean that high spike damage from invis is fine.
    My issue is that this kinds of 1-shot from invis could have been done by a lone thief/mesmer in a much broader roaming area (instead of just spawn-camping as in the video where anyone reading chat and just running past once and dying would have known and could be better prepared for it).
    High spike is fine if the tells are there and proper reaction time is allowed for players to defend themselves.
    Unfortunately invis drastically reduces tells of incoming damage and thus should not be allowed to spike so high.

    A Hermit's Tale - To The Edge of the Mists [Link Here]

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