computer flat out shutting down - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

computer flat out shutting down

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  • I'll back up what abomally said with my personal anecdote.

    I've had a graphics glitch where a polygon on an item/character would suddenly throw colored streaks across my screen. I could reset it by reducing graphics to best performance then going back to my original setting. No amount of game updates, driver updates, OS reinstalls would fix it, nor would other games or software/stress testing reproduce it. My GPU had a very aggressive factory overclock that was known to be at the limit of what that specific chip could achieve. I've updated to a new GPU last month... guess what... the glitch hasn't come back since.

    Another point about overheating. Not every component in your computer that is heat sensitive actually has a temp sensor on it. My old GPU for example, never overheated. But the glitch happened more often on hot days. I've long suspected that some other component was overheating; GRAM or VRMs maybe... don't have a thermal camera so I could never prove it.

    In my experience, RAM is another component prone to give strange errors in specific circumstances that is hard to diagnose and reproduce. The hours of my life I've wasted troubleshooting with software, only to fix the problem by removing the offending stick.

    My point is, I agree with abomally in that certain hardware problems are very, very hard to pinpoint.

  • https://www.kotaku.com.au/2016/11/evga-prepares-fix-for-overheating-nvidia-gtx-1070-and-gtx-1080s/

    Just a recent well known example of overheating of the non-GPU variety to back up my suspicions of my own issue. (Although mine wasn't the same brand or GPU)

  • Had the same issue. RAM stick went bad and was overheating.

  • It may be totally unrelated, but I ran into a similar issue. Guild Wars 2 (and only that game, others ran fine) would lock up. Luckily the machine itself didn't power off, but it would freeze and I needed to kill the program. This was consistently happening, but only in GW2. I tried updating drivers, checked voltages on the PSU, re-seated hardware and cables. I even did a re-install of the game. I was just getting ready to reinstall the OS when I stumbled upon a fix. I had a little TSR program called "Core Temp" running in the background from when I was troubleshooting heat related issues from before I swapped my hardware to a new case. I no longer had the heat issues, but I had gotten used to having the temp information displayed on my Logitech keyboard's LCD display. I had closed the TSR for some reason and had forgotten to re-start it. I launched GW2 to try and play a little bit and lo and behold the game ran fine. No issues for several hours of play. But the next time I went to play I had the TSR running and just like clockwork the game locked solid.

    This may not be related at all to your problem, but if you are running any kind of monitoring software, try disabling it and running the game again. See if that makes any difference. It is worth a shot. I know it made a big difference in my lockup issues.

  • @abomally.2694 said:
    "In practice that may or may not be the case and may be more a matter of opinion than anything."

    The fact that down-clocking the GPU fixes the problem tells you that the hardware is failing at the higher clock speed. The game doesn't measure, know or care about the GPU speed. Now, is it the card itself or another piece of hardware in the system? One thing is for sure - it IS NOT the software "refusing" or "being sensitive" to working at the higher clock rate.

    OK, the card is failing, but ONLY for GW2? I'm sorry, I'm not buying in to that. If the card, or some other piece of hardware was truly failing it would have done so years ago and would be failing across the board. The machine, and video card will be 5 years old in December and is still used daily by my kids. It was my primary machine up until about 6 months ago. The only thing that has ever given us grief is GW2, which is the only thing we have to down clock for, and that has been since the day I bought the machine. The clock get set back to factory settings after finishing a GW2 session. The machine, I've brought in to professional PC techs 3 times over the years to try and figure out what's wrong with it and they've never found anything. Other than some bad memory (3 out of 8 sticks -> 64gb) and a bad mouse and/or keyboard throwing faults on the USB bus causing the bus to become unresponsive (That one was a kitten to diagnose) I've never had problems with the machine with anything other than GW2. It's now using completely new memory and a different mouse with PS2 keyboard (Just to have it on a different bus), but only 2 sticks of memory now for 16gb. I opted to buy new memory from a different manufacturer over reusing any of the original 8.

    A more likely scenario is that the overclocking on the card is more or less fine since it works for everything else, but GW2 has some code that is causing some runaway or fault condition with certain hardware configurations that it's not handling and down clocking prevents the condition. You don't need to down clock much. In most cases, if it's going to work, a reduction of only 5% will fix the issue and in many cases I've seen over the years, people actually see an increase in frame rate for GW2 after the down clock. Typically I use 10% on that machine since GW2 does not need a super powerful card and the 670 was a beast of a card when GW2 was released, though I'm hearing PoF is more of a pig, but that machine is only running the FTP version now. I've been researching and following this issue since December of 2012, the first time I posted about it on the old forum was January 2013. I've seen on the eVGA and nVidia forums other people complaining of similar issues with other games, but none of which I've owned to test with. Apparently one of the GTA games is notorious for this type of crashing.

    FYI, for memory, if you can easily get at it, it's A LOT easier to take it all out and test each stick individually. Doing it this way can also reveal issues not obvious with all the memory in the machine.

    @onevstheworld.2419 said:
    I'll back up what abomally said with my personal anecdote.

    I've had a graphics glitch where a polygon on an item/character would suddenly throw colored streaks across my screen. I could reset it by reducing graphics to best performance then going back to my original setting. No amount of game updates, driver updates, OS reinstalls would fix it, nor would other games or software/stress testing reproduce it. My GPU had a very aggressive factory overclock that was known to be at the limit of what that specific chip could achieve. I've updated to a new GPU last month... guess what... the glitch hasn't come back since.

    Again, why only GW2? It still points to GW2 itself having issues with certain hardware configurations and/or not catching or controlling fault conditions properly, not necessarily bad hardware. It has always pointed to being a code problem, not a hardware problem. Down clocking is a hack to get around bad code.

    If Arenanet says GW2 is sensitive to over clocking, then it is, but that doesn't mean it sees the over clocking or that it's bad hardware or that the over clocking is bad, the way ANet states it means there is some bug in their code they don't know how, or are unwilling/unable, to fix.

  • "If Arenanet says GW2 is sensitive to over clocking, then it is..."

    Nope. They are wrong. There's no such thing as software that is "sensitive" to overclocking. Either the hardware works properly or it doesn't.

    No need to explain how hardware or software works to me, but thanks anyway. I used to write software and am an electronics technician with a great deal of experience. I also do circuit design on occasion. There's no point explaining all of this to you again - you just refuse to listen. I've been doing this for 35 years.

    Good luck to you.

  • psizone.8437psizone.8437 Member ✭✭✭

    I had a similar problem on my old PC and it seemed to be only when playing GW2.

    Turns out my graphics cards fan had crapped out and wouldn't spin, for some reason this game and my fan-less GPU really didn't get on. The odd time the GPU fan actually worked, the game ran fine and the computer wouldn't restart itself.

  • Seera.5916Seera.5916 Member ✭✭✭

    @Leamas.5803 said:

    @abomally.2694 said:
    "In practice that may or may not be the case and may be more a matter of opinion than anything."

    The fact that down-clocking the GPU fixes the problem tells you that the hardware is failing at the higher clock speed. The game doesn't measure, know or care about the GPU speed. Now, is it the card itself or another piece of hardware in the system? One thing is for sure - it IS NOT the software "refusing" or "being sensitive" to working at the higher clock rate.

    OK, the card is failing, but ONLY for GW2? I'm sorry, I'm not buying in to that. If the card, or some other piece of hardware was truly failing it would have done so years ago and would be failing across the board. The machine, and video card will be 5 years old in December and is still used daily by my kids. It was my primary machine up until about 6 months ago. The only thing that has ever given us grief is GW2, which is the only thing we have to down clock for, and that has been since the day I bought the machine. The clock get set back to factory settings after finishing a GW2 session. The machine, I've brought in to professional PC techs 3 times over the years to try and figure out what's wrong with it and they've never found anything. Other than some bad memory (3 out of 8 sticks -> 64gb) and a bad mouse and/or keyboard throwing faults on the USB bus causing the bus to become unresponsive (That one was a kitten to diagnose) I've never had problems with the machine with anything other than GW2. It's now using completely new memory and a different mouse with PS2 keyboard (Just to have it on a different bus), but only 2 sticks of memory now for 16gb. I opted to buy new memory from a different manufacturer over reusing any of the original 8.

    A more likely scenario is that the overclocking on the card is more or less fine since it works for everything else, but GW2 has some code that is causing some runaway or fault condition with certain hardware configurations that it's not handling and down clocking prevents the condition. You don't need to down clock much. In most cases, if it's going to work, a reduction of only 5% will fix the issue and in many cases I've seen over the years, people actually see an increase in frame rate for GW2 after the down clock. Typically I use 10% on that machine since GW2 does not need a super powerful card and the 670 was a beast of a card when GW2 was released, though I'm hearing PoF is more of a pig, but that machine is only running the FTP version now. I've been researching and following this issue since December of 2012, the first time I posted about it on the old forum was January 2013. I've seen on the eVGA and nVidia forums other people complaining of similar issues with other games, but none of which I've owned to test with. Apparently one of the GTA games is notorious for this type of crashing.

    FYI, for memory, if you can easily get at it, it's A LOT easier to take it all out and test each stick individually. Doing it this way can also reveal issues not obvious with all the memory in the machine.

    @onevstheworld.2419 said:
    I'll back up what abomally said with my personal anecdote.

    I've had a graphics glitch where a polygon on an item/character would suddenly throw colored streaks across my screen. I could reset it by reducing graphics to best performance then going back to my original setting. No amount of game updates, driver updates, OS reinstalls would fix it, nor would other games or software/stress testing reproduce it. My GPU had a very aggressive factory overclock that was known to be at the limit of what that specific chip could achieve. I've updated to a new GPU last month... guess what... the glitch hasn't come back since.

    Again, why only GW2? It still points to GW2 itself having issues with certain hardware configurations and/or not catching or controlling fault conditions properly, not necessarily bad hardware. It has always pointed to being a code problem, not a hardware problem. Down clocking is a hack to get around bad code.

    If Arenanet says GW2 is sensitive to over clocking, then it is, but that doesn't mean it sees the over clocking or that it's bad hardware or that the over clocking is bad, the way ANet states it means there is some bug in their code they don't know how, or are unwilling/unable, to fix.

    It could be how the game is coded to use your hardware that causes GW2 to be the only game that shows the error. And it may not necessarily be a bug in the game, but a sign your card is failing. The only way to know for sure is to swap graphics cards. It's why I haven't gotten rid of my last card.

    While it's not hardware related here's a tale of a problem that only showed up in 1 game:

    Built my system from scratch. Everything was working smooth. Guild Wars 2, Sims 3, Sims 2, Sims 4, Mass Effect 1-3, etc all work just fine and no crashing that's caused by the computer. Then Mass Effect Andromeda comes out. I would play the game for 30 minutes and have to restart the computer due to it hanging my system up so much. If even 30 minutes depending on what was happening. Bought a new, better graphics card because the one I had was right on the low end. Still had issues. Turns out Mass Effect Andromeda uses the page file and all of the other games I listed do not. I had not set up my page file. Once I set it, the crashing stopped.

    So just because something only happens with one game and not any other, doesn't mean that it's the game's fault.

  • @abomally.2694 said:
    "If Arenanet says GW2 is sensitive to over clocking, then it is..."

    Nope. They are wrong. There's no such thing as software that is "sensitive" to overclocking. Either the hardware works properly or it doesn't.

    No need to explain how hardware or software works to me, but thanks anyway. I used to write software and am an electronics technician with a great deal of experience. I also do circuit design on occasion. There's no point explaining all of this to you again - you just refuse to listen. I've been doing this for 35 years.

    Good luck to you.

    LOL I don't need luck as I've long since solved the problem on my machine...without spending hundreds more on a new video card, following a suggestion put forth by ANet themselves. ANet may be wrong on the wording when they say "sensitive", but they are not wrong when they say there is a potential issue with their software when it comes to overclocked hardware. It's obviously been a common enough problem and fix that they included it in a sticky post.

    https://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum/support/support/Crashing-Issues-1/first#post4146866

    You can push that the card is failing or that it's buggy all you want, but at the end of 5 years of owning the card the facts do not support that view.

    "Either the hardware works properly or it doesn't." - Absolutely, the hardware works within its design limitations...it does what the software tells it to do and, with a lot of modern hardware, if the software tells it to do something that's potentially damaging, very often, it immediately shuts down (aka crashes), which is what it's supposed to do to protect itself, and at this point is still working properly. Not like back in the day when my buddy wrote an assembly TSR to burn hard-drive motors out. The HDD was happy to do what it was told, until it fried itself.

    All I'm trying to do is save people money and frustration. Changing the clock speed is a simple test to see if the game stabilizes. After that, if it works, they can decided whether to keep doing this or whether they want to try a new card. That said, I have seen people replace their card only to have the same issues...and replacing the card seems A LOT of money to lay out for the sake of a single game. If changing the clock doesn't help, change it back, then what are they out but a few minutes of time? I've come across others who are adamantly opposed to changing the clock speed, and I used to be one of them, now I just don't understand why I resisted for so long. I spoke with a guy last month who had this issue on a 1070/7700k and did the clock speed change. Not only did it fix his crashing problem, he claimed he gained a substantial amount of frame rate while also being able to use higher graphics settings, which he kept low to make the game more stable.

    I'm also a software developer, Oracle DBA, and have done my share of electronics over the years, but most of my experience is on the software side, near on 30 years (Much longer than that if I go back as far as when I was a kid programming Basic games on the Vic-20). I too am old and have been quite stubborn about not buying a new card since in this case I don't think the core issue lies in the hardware at all.

  • DeWolfe.2174DeWolfe.2174 Member ✭✭✭

    I do not understand the rabid desires to buy new components instead of finding the software issues. Sure, if you have identical components on hand to swap, then swap them out. To recommend to others to spend hundreds to thousands on components, instead of thoroughly diagnosing software issues first, is reckless.

    After carefully reading hardware logs again, I finally noticed the Nvidia Boost was going over 25% above reference clocks while playing GW2. Now that I limited the boost to just below 20% and raised the voltage ceiling slightly, it's been rock solid. Again, this all began after the Windows 10 Creators update which was supposed to increase gaming performance. Logic would suggest, as I stated previously, it was a Windows, Nvidia, GW2 issue and not hardware.

    .... cue the software apologist, even though Microsoft admitted there's been performance issues from that update. Also, that it forces drivers to update on the system and can create issues.

  • abomally.2694abomally.2694 Member ✭✭
    edited October 14, 2017

    I never said anything about buying new components.

    I explicitly stated to SUBSTITUTE known good components with potentially bad ones in order to pinpoint the issue. Another thing that people don't seem to be aware of, is that the BIOS of a graphics card controls the clock speed - UNLESS you manually set it with software. For example, I'm not running the Gigabyte Extreme Gaming Engine software in the background because it frees up 2 to 5% of my CPU, which may be needed for recording. The card automatically adjusts itself without the Gigabyte software running in the background.

    I also explained that an overclock is stable or it isn't and that components can degrade over time. This means that a factory overclock may have worked fine when the card was new, but DUE TO COMPONENT DEGRADATION the hardware fails with the factory overclock - this means that it is, in fact, a hardware problem. Very often, the GPU failures will continue to get worse until the card becomes unusable. I know this from experience.

    Yes - you can usually lower clock speeds to make an unstable overclock stable. You and the other poster I've been addressing come here looking for answers as to why your graphics cards are crashing when the factory overclocks kick in, then when the answer is given, you blame the problem on everything under the sun except the obvious.

    There is also the falsehood of software being "sensitive" to overclocked hardware. Go ask some hardware engineers and they will tell you the same thing that I have.

    I hope that was clear enough. Have a good evening.

  • DeWolfe.2174DeWolfe.2174 Member ✭✭✭

    Runs fine
    Runs fine
    Runs fine
    large windows update, nvidia update, GW2 update
    crashing

    Let's look at what changed here? And, since it can run stable at higher OC's for other software, that's not degradation, yet.
    If it was unstable for every game and benchmark, then I would agree with you it's degradation.

    The fall creators update is about to roll out, hopefully it with contain more fixes.

  • With multiple cases there may be a way to pin-point a similarity. If you experience these crashes, what GPU & Driver are you using? I do not have them, running RX 470 driver 17.9.1.

    Wolf Moonstar
    Dragon Council, Third Seat: Jade Sea Haven (Jade) of Ehmry Bay
    My Ryzen Rig

  • DeWolfe.2174DeWolfe.2174 Member ✭✭✭

    Thank you Moostarmac, there seems to have been more of an issue with Windows and Nvidia than ATI.

  • Leamas.5803Leamas.5803 Member ✭✭
    edited October 16, 2017

    @moonstarmac.4603 said:
    With multiple cases there may be a way to pin-point a similarity. If you experience these crashes, what GPU & Driver are you using? I do not have them, running RX 470 driver 17.9.1.

    I first had this issue on my eVGA nVidia 670gtx SC back in late December/early January of 2012/2013, first reported it to ANet in late January 2013 and have been following it ever since. While the creator's update may have made it worse in recent months, it has been an issue with GW2 for much longer. I can say that 99% of the issues I've seen over the years have been with nVidia, but far more people use nVidia, so that number is a bit skewed. With nVidia, there is also typically a driver crash in the Windows event log that accompanies it (nvlddmkm.sys) and searching the vNidia and eVGA, as the vendor in my case, forums typically garners little help. Driver version can affect it. Back when I first started having issues I was using driver version 306.97, but updating to 310.90 made the game unplayable as it would crash as soon I as panned the camera. Newer versions of the driver also have the same problem. Last one I had crashing on (Because I forgot to down clock) would have been about a year ago, when I last played with the kids, so probably 37x.xx. Unlocked frame rate makes it worse, shaders make it worse, heavily populated maps makes it worse. Updates to GW2 can sometimes make it a little better or worse. Typical behavior is that the problem is ONLY present in GW2 and most often presents itself in two ways, a complete system shutdown as if the power was pulled or a freeze to a blank screen with looped sound, requiring a hard reset (Holding the power in for 5 seconds). The color of the freeze screen can vary. The time to crash varies wildly where crashes can happen within seconds of opening the game or occasionally one can play hours before a crash, but crashes typically happen in less than an hour, making group content such as dungeons/raids/map metas/etc. not very viable. It happens with both the 32-bit (When they still had one) and 64-bit clients. All other games, stress test utilities, and benchmark utilities work fine.

    ANet acknowledged there is a problem back some years ago, with some apparently unfortunate wording that some are "sensitive" to :p, but they've never fixed it (The problem OR the wording).
    https://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum/support/support/Crashing-Issues-1/first#post4146866

    Over the years I've done a massive amount of debugging with ANet, nVidia and eVGA as well as brought the machine in to tech support 3 times, but never resolved it and nothing has been able to replicate the crash. I've tried heavily abusing the card with things like the Furmark burn in test, pretty much setting the card on fire, and setting the view distance way out with HD textures on Skyrim to make it grind in a more random way. Ultimately, ANet's recommendation was to try down clocking overclocked hardware, which is what I eventually did to fix it and have never had a crash since. (And didn't have to buy a new card) I did the entirety of HoT and most LW Season 3 down-clocked without a single crash (Then took the summer off from GW2, so just getting back to finishing up S3).

    @DeWolfe.2174 said:
    Let's look at what changed here? And, since it can run stable at higher OC's for other software, that's not degradation, yet.
    If it was unstable for every game and benchmark, then I would agree with you it's degradation.

    Exactly...

    @abomally.2694 said:
    Yes - you can usually lower clock speeds to make an unstable overclock stable. You and the other poster I've been addressing come here looking for answers as to why your graphics cards are crashing when the factory overclocks kick in, then when the answer is given, you blame the problem on everything under the sun except the obvious.

    I haven't been looking for answers in this thread, it WAS answered...by ANet...~3 years ago, according to the forum. The "obvious" answer is that there is a problem with the GW2 software, since ANet openly says there is. They have long acknowledged that their software can have crashing problems with overclocked hardware. The problem does not present in any way in any other application or game. If it was a truly unstable overclock, other applications/games should have issues and something should be able to reproduce the problem in a controlled fashion (Something you NEED to be able to do if you want to get the card RMA'd), neither of which are true here. At the end of my battle with this card (Which I did fight for WAY too long), downclocking was ultimately also the suggestion put forth by both the nVidia and eVGA technical forums.

    You're arguing about wording semantics only technical users would understand, and most of those could care less about since we understand what ANet is getting at. You're arguing against an issue and potential fix the software developer has openly stated is there, which is just ponderous to me. Let's be honest, not everyone here is technically savvy. Could it be possible ANet might have been simply trying to explain it in layman's terms that most nontechnical users could understand? Have you ever done technical helpdesk support for nontechnical users or developed software or technical designs for nontechnical users? You really need to dumb down the language, AND you need to be able to do it without sounding condescending. Often we use words or comparisons that are aren't ideal in our world, but that they'll understand. Here at work it's an ability we commonly call "speaking user" and not every technical person has the ability to speak user. In fact, there are many you should keep far away from end users. You don't like the word sensitive, OK, we get that. How else would you word it in nontechnical layman terms. They could say GW2 "has a bug that will not be addressed", but that sounds far more ominous. They could say "GW2 may not work well with all overclocked hardware", but that is a lot more wordy and basically says the same thing as sensitive. In layman terms, in my mind, sensitive is a good word to explain it to nontechnical users, since GW2 is happy most of the time, but sometimes not.

    The reality is most nontechnical users could care less about "why", they just want a fix and preferably one that doesn't require new hardware, which I haven't seen you propose anything short of the possibility of failed hardware...you're mostly arguing semantics and technical definitions. At the end of the day, while not technically accurate, "sensitive" describes the problem well for most people...so what's the big deal? If it bothers you that much, perhaps you should put a support ticket and ask them to change the wording on the sticky to something more technically accurate. I've post the URL a couple times. I don't need it changed since I speak user very well, and understand "sensitive".

    After fighting this issue for over 3 years myself and following it for almost 5, I've never guaranteed this will work for anyone, but I know it has worked for many, and at least I'm trying to help since I understand how frustrating this issue is. I also understand computer hardware is expensive and not everyone has the option to freely swap hardware at will to test things, so I tend to start with suggestions that do not require new hardware. Unless there's something obviously wrong that points to hardware, like crashing in multiple applications or random BSODs, start with software since a software fix is always preferable when possible (Unless I run a shop and am trying to upsell you), that's basic tech support 101. What are you doing to help, other than kitten about technical terminology?

  • ok, so i dont even known if my graphics card CAME overclocked, is there any recommended software I can use to test this?

    Also, I can get as far as log in safely, so I'll try turning down my graphics in that window before logging in and see if that helps. But you see, thats the issue: this happened once before, if I recall correctly it was early this year with a living story, and a subsequent patch saw the issue go away.

    Now its happening again, but only after a bug patch a week or so AFTER the expac came out, so again, as mentioned above, the only thing that changed was GW2, so I cant see that my hardware is going bad. I even had geek squad run stress tests and try and crash it mulitple ways, and they were unable to replicate the issue any way whatsoever except running GW2.

    Regardless, havent run it in a bit.... now I'm patching, and it seems like quite a bit, so will try it raw with the patch and, if it crashes again, then I'll try it after downgrading the graphics, and if THAT fails will try and test the overclock state of my graphics card, if any, if someone can direct me to a reliable piece of software I can use for checking and, if necessary, downshifting the overclock....

  • DeWolfe.2174DeWolfe.2174 Member ✭✭✭

    @Morfedel.4165 said:
    ok, so i dont even known if my graphics card CAME overclocked

    This can help get us started. Download and run it.
    https://www.techpowerup.com/gpuz/

  • vpchelko.4261vpchelko.4261 Member ✭✭
    edited October 17, 2017

    Update the driver is evil - if the current driver version is OK.

    For example my PC is not working with current nVidia Drivers (video card reboots after 2-3 minutes), I installed an old nVidia Driver pack to make my PC work correctly, and fully disable all system/driver update on my PC to avoid such problem in future.

  • Morfedel.4165Morfedel.4165 Member ✭✭
    edited October 17, 2017

    @DeWolfe.2174 said:

    @Morfedel.4165 said:
    ok, so i dont even known if my graphics card CAME overclocked

    This can help get us started. Download and run it.
    https://www.techpowerup.com/gpuz/

    so, the GPU Core Clock is running at 300.0 MHz, and the GPU Memory Clock is running at 150.0 MHz. anything else I need to check?

  • so, as a side note, I turned down my graphics settings for the game within the game's graphics options all the way; well, I selected "best performance" out of the drop down box. And for the few minutes before I had to shut down to get ready for work, the game ran just fine.

    Oddly enough, since this problem started, it ran just fine for two days before the problem started back up again; so because of that I'm not sure if this is a temporary fix, if the game will shut my computer down after some play, or if this is a more permament fix. Since I have to get to work I wont be able to play it until tonight, so tonight sometime I'll give it a run and see how it does.

    But at least it didn't shut down immediately, so that gives me a little hope here.

  • Ashantara.8731Ashantara.8731 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 17, 2017

    @TEKnowledgy.1760 said:
    Could be power supply dont rule it out just because only doing it on one game

    This. But the OP said nothing about whether they have done anything I suggested in my first response or not.

    Also, not sure what "geek squad" is (and, personally, find such nicknames for tech-savvy people offensive), but I doubt they had the time to test everything. The OP should take the laptop to professional MSI tech support if they are unable to figure out and fix the issue by themselves.

  • vpchelko.4261vpchelko.4261 Member ✭✭
    edited October 17, 2017
  • @DeWolfe.2174 said:

    @Morfedel.4165 said:
    ok, so i dont even known if my graphics card CAME overclocked

    This can help get us started. Download and run it.
    https://www.techpowerup.com/gpuz/

    nVidia Inspector is really good and easy too.
    http://www.guru3d.com/files-details/nvidia-inspector-download.html

  • @Morfedel.4165 said:

    @DeWolfe.2174 said:

    @Morfedel.4165 said:
    ok, so i dont even known if my graphics card CAME overclocked

    This can help get us started. Download and run it.
    https://www.techpowerup.com/gpuz/

    so, the GPU Core Clock is running at 300.0 MHz, and the GPU Memory Clock is running at 150.0 MHz. anything else I need to check?

    Which card is it?

  • Leamas.5803Leamas.5803 Member ✭✭
    edited October 17, 2017

    @Ashantara.8731 said:
    Also, not sure what "geek squad" is (and, personally, find such nicknames for tech-savvy people offensive), but I doubt they had the time to test everything. The OP should take the laptop to professional MSI tech support if they are unable to figure out and fix the issue by themselves.

    Geek Squad is Best Buy's tech support. The problem with this issue is that even professional techs can't reproduce the problem with any of their testing tools. If they can't reproduce it, it makes it very hard for them to debug it. When I had this problem with my PC I debugged it with the folks on the nVidia and eVGA forums and brought it in to tech support 3 times...and no one could figure it out and nothing anyone had me try could reproduce the crash outside of GW2. The conclusion on ALL fronts was that it was most likely a software issue and that it should be resolved at that level.

  • DeWolfe.2174DeWolfe.2174 Member ✭✭✭

    @Morfedel.4165 said:

    @DeWolfe.2174 said:

    @Morfedel.4165 said:
    ok, so i dont even known if my graphics card CAME overclocked

    This can help get us started. Download and run it.
    https://www.techpowerup.com/gpuz/

    so, the GPU Core Clock is running at 300.0 MHz, and the GPU Memory Clock is running at 150.0 MHz. anything else I need to check?

    Tell us what the name of the card is and the default clock speed. I'm assuming you gave us the current speed which is the card throttled down at idle.
    Could be helpful to try Hardware Monitor. https://www.cpuid.com/softwares/hwmonitor.html
    Then play the game for a couple minutes and it'll tells us what was the actual max clock speed the graphics card hit. Nvidia boost can go quiet high.
    Next will probably be to use something like Leamas's Nvidia Inspector or software from the cards manufacturer to turn it down a bit.
    Also, they might have been a firmware update to your card which most folks never research as the computer ages.

  • Seera.5916Seera.5916 Member ✭✭✭

    @vpchelko.4261 said:
    Update the driver is evil - if the current driver version is OK.

    For example my PC is not working with current nVidia Drivers (video card reboots after 2-3 minutes), I installed an old nVidia Driver pack to make my PC work correctly, and fully disable all system/driver update on my PC to avoid such problem in future.

    But if you're having problems that could be related to the graphics card or some other part that has drivers, updating the drivers is a valid suggestion.

    My nVidia keeps telling me there's a new driver. I haven't installed it. Because my games currently work just fine. The last time I updated drivers was when I got my new card and before that when I was troubleshooting a crashing problem that happened around high graphics cut scenes.

  • Morfedel, also as a summary, can you let us know what you have tried in order to resolve it? It'll help us so we don't keep rehashing things you've already tried. Maybe take a screen shot of GPUz or nVidia Inspector and post it so we can see all the numbers. Both look the same, with the exception that the latter allows clock changes. As DeWolfe says, the clock speed sounds low.

  • Exstazik.5847Exstazik.5847 Member ✭✭
    edited October 18, 2017

    I have the same problem and it's getting real worse in last week or so. The only difference is my PC not a laptop, it's a desktop.
    Sorry for my english (not my native) but i'll try to discribe it in short story : i've been playing GW2 for several years (not every day and without long breaks ofc, but pretty much often overall) and all this time i'm using the same machine for it. And the only major and significant things i've changed in that PC was GPUs and OS.

    Started to play GW2 on Windows 7 with MSI GTX770 Gaming (factory OC only) - > not a single system shutdown/restart for all time.
    Then change it to Windows 10 and MSI GTX980 Gaming (factory OC too and i haven't been OC anythin' there) -> same. Not a single shutdown for a year and a half.
    Then changed it to GIGABYTE GTX1060 (6GB) (with factory OC + i've OC'ed it slightly) -> experienced my first BSODs and restart in GW2 as soon as i try to play with it. Changed back my OC settings down a little (but not downclocked or disabled it), found some stable one, tested it and played GW2 without problems after (1 year) So, yeah, game is "sensitive" to even slight overclock.

    And finnaly, around 2 weeks ago or so i've changed my GPU to MSI GTX1080 GAMING (factory OC, not OC'ed anythin' manually) and got the same problems as author discribed in this thread : at any place, at any time, absolutely random, without any BSOD my PC locks up and restarting. It may happen after couple of hours in GW2 or just after i'm logs in. In crowded area or in solo-instance. Or may never happen for may hours or days. After today's Haloween update my game crashed and restarted PC twice already. It happens ONLY in GW2. Temps is absolutely normal on all components. So it's not overheating for sure. Playing any other games old and new for hours and hours and never seen a single problem/crash/hardrestart (playing new Shadow of Mordor and Evil Within 2 atm), working and building/rendering heavy scenes in 3D's Max and other programs and it's completely fine too. Making stress-tests and both GPU and CPU works absolutely fine with it. So it happens only with GW2.

    Checked it with GPU-Z and it shows that GPU Clock is 1620 MHz and Memory Clock is 1251 MHz. Should i downclock it and test? And i'm not sure how to downclock somethin'. I know how to OC slightly with Afterburner ofc but never needed to downclock anythin' lol. How to do it?

    I see several recent threads here about similar issue and all people says it's getting real bad after some new game's update at the end of september or smthn. But my problem that i've changed my GPU around this time and cannot say for sure what caused it for me.

    Current rig : i7-4790k (not OC)/ MSI GTX1080 Gaming/ 16GB RAM/ Win10/ PSU Corsair CX 750W

  • DeWolfe.2174DeWolfe.2174 Member ✭✭✭

    There are no cure all's for this but, we can post things to try. For downclocking, since you have MSI Afterburner installed, see if you can slide the "core clock" slider to the left for negative mhz. Try just -50mhz to start. I'd be concerned if your PSU can handle the new card but, the power requirements from the 770 to 1080 are not that dissimilar.

  • @DeWolfe.2174 said:
    There are no cure all's for this but, we can post things to try. For downclocking, since you have MSI Afterburner installed, see if you can slide the "core clock" slider to the left for negative mhz. Try just -50mhz to start. I'd be concerned if your PSU can handle the new card but, the power requirements from the 770 to 1080 are not that dissimilar.

    Since GW2 doesn't require a super powerful GPU, personally I would go more heavy handed on the clock and reduce all possible clocks by a full 10%. If it works, then you know this is the problem and you can start increasing the clock incrementally.

  • Leamas.5803 -

    "...They have long acknowledged that their software can have crashing problems with overclocked hardware."

    I'll tell you this again: Anet is wrong. Software does NOT work that way. You, of all people should know that. What happens with unstable overclocked hardware is that the data becomes corrupted - randomly. If the hardware is stable - the data does not change. Software does not change data because hardware is overclocked. Hardware corrupts data when it is unstable. That causes software that relies on that data to crash.

    "The problem with this issue is that even professional techs can't reproduce the problem with any of their testing tools."

    The graphics card manufacturer can. They have special test jigs and software that can test for a variety of failures. All electronics manufacturers have advanced testing methods for the equipment they manufacture that are not available to the public.

    The problem with testing for hardware failures using software, is that the software is often not very accurate. Take Memtest for example. It simply loads data in memory addresses sequentially with some standard data patterns. That works great for finding RAM that is bad; but it usually won't find RAM that is intermittently failing. That's also not a very stressful way to test memory.

    Hardware Monitor (even the latest version) is often wildly inaccurate in regards to power supply voltages. It can even vary with different versions of HM. However, using a meter to measure the voltages with the PC running will show the real values.

    Sometimes, you have to approach the problem differently in order to solve it. One issue that is a fairly common problem on older electronics is bad solder connections (I'm not referring to computers here, but it does happen with them as well). Sony TV's had a serious issue with this back in the 1990's because of a flaw in how their [solder] reflow process worked.

    Instead of spending hours with an oscilloscope and meter trying to pinpoint the exact connections that were failing (which is nearly impossible to do); it was better to simply resolder any connections that looked bad and even those that "might" be bad that were nearby. This solved the problems and the repairs went much faster.

    Back to your issue: If this was a code problem - this board would be flooded with complaints because most people these days run overclocked GPU's. Instead, there are very few people with this problem. If you can work around the problem by lowering clock speeds - great - whatever works. The fact is, the overclock is unstable. That's really not unusual if the hardware is old. It could be any number of electronic failures from bad capacitors on the board to one of the millions of transistors inside the GPU itself. We'll never know.

    Good day.

  • Exstazik.5847Exstazik.5847 Member ✭✭
    edited October 18, 2017

    Downclocked my GPU's Core Clock and Memory Clock by 10% and unfortunately it doesn't help. PC restarts after around 30 mins in Lion's Arch. Strange that it was absolutely random and rather rare before, but after Haloween's update i literally can't stay in Lion's Arch more than 10-30 mins - it will crash/restarts 100%. Not happening in other game zones. Ofc there's alot of people there atm cause of events but i've been testing it with "model limit" set at lowest and still get the same crash/hardreset.

    Because there's no BSOD, Event Monitor only says it's Kernel Power 41 error and system was shut down.

  • Player.9621Player.9621 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 18, 2017

    what about other games?
    sounds to me like either overheating or faulty hardware
    windows has hardware protection which will shut itself off if it is going to damage your computer

    if youre up for it, pull it apart, take everything out completely and reassemble it to ensure everything is seated properly

    The pointy end goes in the other man.

  • Since down clocking didn't work. As Player indicated, how are your temps looking? You can use HWMonitor to check this. If it were the video card/OC I would typically expect to see an error in the event log related to nvlddmkm. Where you have a kernel power error, it may ultimately be a faulty power supply. I would take it in and have the PSU tested.

  • Exstazik.5847Exstazik.5847 Member ✭✭
    edited October 18, 2017

    @Player.9621 said:
    what about other games?
    sounds to me like either overheating or faulty hardware

    I've told about other games/programs/stress-tests and overheating in my 1st post and problem is definitely not there :

    @Exstazik.5847 said:

    ...It happens ONLY in GW2. Temps is absolutely normal on all components. So it's not overheating for sure. Playing any other games old and new for hours and hours and never seen a single problem/crash/hardrestart (playing new Shadow of Mordor and Evil Within 2 atm), working and building/rendering heavy scenes in 3D's Max and other programs and it's completely fine too. Making stress-tests and both GPU and CPU works absolutely fine with it. So it happens only with GW2.

    If not GW2 i wouldn't even know that such problem exist somewhere at all :)

  • Exstazik.5847Exstazik.5847 Member ✭✭
    edited October 18, 2017

    @Leamas.5803 said:
    Since down clocking didn't work. As Player indicated, how are your temps looking? You can use HWMonitor to check this. If it were the video card/OC I would typically expect to see an error in the event log related to nvlddmkm. Where you have a kernel power error, it may ultimately be a faulty power supply. I would take it in and have the PSU tested.

    Temps are pretty normal : when GW2 is running CPU is 50-55 C, GPU is around the same and mobo is at 30-31 C.
    Full Kernel error log looks like this :

  • Leamas.5803Leamas.5803 Member ✭✭
    edited October 18, 2017

    There is a trial version of HWMonitor Pro That will allow you to monitor statistics in real time (Well, update once a second) via network. I've never used it for this purpose, so don't know how to set it up off the top of my head, but it might tell you if you're getting sudden spikes or drops in your voltages right before the crash.

  • DeWolfe.2174DeWolfe.2174 Member ✭✭✭

    For the Fall Creators update, Windows 10's Task Manager is going to start showing GPU load too. So with Windows "Game Mode" and them now mapping GPU's, I don't quite trust this issue not being software still. When Microsoft makes public announcements that they are aware of issues, I'm going to believe the issue is pretty wide spread.

    Ok first, before we delve into system, how about we clean up GW2 first? You might try deleting the gw2cache and local.dat. You'll have to have windows explorer set to view "hidden" items. Also, to not be running the game, so log out.

    The "Local.dat" resides in the folder:
    C:> Users > (Your windows acct name) > AppData > Roaming > Guild Wars 2
    Just delete the Local.dat and GW2 will recreate it on the next running. NOTE: make certain you have your account name and password as you'll have to type it into the launcher again!!! May also need to reset a few settings in the Games "Options".

    The cache is located at:
    C:> Users > (Your windows acct name) > AppData > Local > Temp > gw2cache+random numbers
    Delete the cache folder entirely.

    The game auto repairs the big .dat data file. You can use -repair to force it to repair the .dat. Not a bad idea to try it too.

    The last GW2 thing I can think of is going to the Guild Wars 2 installation folder, wherever you installed to, and find the GW2-64.exe. Right click on it and go to properties, compatibility, then tick on the "disable fullscreen optimizations".

    For your computer, physically clean it! Might also be a good idea to reset, take out and put back in, the video card, ram, and power supply cables. You can leave the CPU and heatsink along! If it's a laptop or you don't know what you're doing, just try to clean out the dust, etc.

    As I posted previously, it's important to get an exacting timeline of when the issues began to occur. If you are full blown crashing windows, you'll get a Critical level event with an ID of 41 in the Event Viewer. If the Nvidia driver hangs and recovers, you'll get a yellow warning with an Event ID of 4101. Seeing when these occur in relation to updates and software changes can help you diagnose the issue. You may notice a correlation between an update/software installation and errors.

    For hardware monitoring, you can try the portable HWiNFO64. It has a logging feature which you can use if you know approximately when a crash will occur. You may see voltage drops, load spikes, Temperature spikes. It also shows if you've hit the Thermal Throttling on the CPU.

    Quick summary of things I've read people trying to fix this.
    Uninstalling the Video Driver in Windows safe mode with DDU. To do so make certain you have your USB mouse and keyboard plugged into USB 2 sockets. Download the latest driver from Nvidia's website before uninstalling. For the rest, you can google how to enter safe mode for you system and how to use DDU too. Oh and turn off Nvidia GeForce Experience options or better yet, just install the drivers and not the bloatware for now.

    Turn off or uninstall any graphical overlays.
    Turn off Windows Game mode entirely.

    Check if there was a firmware/bios update for the video card. Might be a known issue already resolved by the manufacturer.
    Check if there was a firmware/bios update for the motherboard. Might be a known issue already resolved by the manufacturer.

    Right click on your desktop and go to the Nvidia Control Panel. Under Manage 3d Settings, you'll see power management mode, change it to Optimal Power. If that doesn't help try Maximum Performance.

    Right click on the Windows Start menu >>> Power options >> additional power settings >>> change the power plan to "high performance".

    Lastly, we have down clocking the video card and adding voltage. Messing with voltage is the last thing to try.

    This is the throwing spaghetti at the wall and seeing what sticks list. :)

  • jbrother.1340jbrother.1340 Member ✭✭✭

    @Morfedel.4165 said:
    so, as a side note, I turned down my graphics settings for the game within the game's graphics options all the way; well, I selected "best performance" out of the drop down box. And for the few minutes before I had to shut down to get ready for work, the game ran just fine.

    Oddly enough, since this problem started, it ran just fine for two days before the problem started back up again; so because of that I'm not sure if this is a temporary fix, if the game will shut my computer down after some play, or if this is a more permament fix. Since I have to get to work I wont be able to play it until tonight, so tonight sometime I'll give it a run and see how it does.

    But at least it didn't shut down immediately, so that gives me a little hope here.

    I did not see if you replied OP since this post yesterday my time. How did you fair with a tuning down of the graphics settings?
    Also,

    I didn't see a basic list of your hardware specs in the thread here. I might have missed it and will review again. Could you post a line by line list of your part specs you currently have in your system. And maybe the age of your GPU/CPU? I know a lot is being said in this thread and I think it might be helpful to recap with a list of your specs and a basic standing point of where you are currently. You can of course not do that and it is fine to.

    This is what I do all day at work. My team gets the issues that no one else will or can deal with in the various systems where I work and there are many. Sometimes recapping when we hit a wall with a wonky issue helps ferret out the solution. We sit down at a round table and basically lay out all the facts on cards or verbally each take one and own it. We then honestly sit there and argue and yell at each other and throw paper balls and pens at each other for a while. Somehow at the end there is always an answer, it makes no sense really but I think it is the recap that really helps. The rest is like tossing stuff into a strong wind. The good ideas are heavy and fall and everything else blows off the table with our "gust". This last paragraph was just to lighten the mood in this thread. The recap really does help.

  • @Seera.5916 said:

    But if you're having problems that could be related to the graphics card or some other part that has drivers, updating the drivers is a valid suggestion.

    My nVidia keeps telling me there's a new driver. I haven't installed it. Because my games currently work just fine. The last time I updated drivers was when I got my new card and before that when I was troubleshooting a crashing problem that happened around high graphics cut scenes.

    In my case downgrade was correct solution

  • @Exstazik.5847 said:

    @Leamas.5803 said:
    Since down clocking didn't work. As Player indicated, how are your temps looking? You can use HWMonitor to check this. If it were the video card/OC I would typically expect to see an error in the event log related to nvlddmkm. Where you have a kernel power error, it may ultimately be a faulty power supply. I would take it in and have the PSU tested.

    Temps are pretty normal : when GW2 is running CPU is 50-55 C, GPU is around the same and mobo is at 30-31 C.
    Full Kernel error log looks like this :

    http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/faq/id-3128570/fix-windows-error-event-kernel-power.html

  • evilsofa.7296evilsofa.7296 Member ✭✭✭

    Most of the times I've had PCs shut down, it was bad RAM. PoF uses significantly more RAM than GW2 did before. GW2 may be hitting a stick of RAM that has not otherwise been getting stressed before now.

    While no software RAM test can be perfect, Memtest86+ has not been supported since 2013, has known problems and should not be used at all. The original Memtest86 is now being supported by Passmark but is not as good as the others. HCI Memtest is the best of the "Memtests", and should be run with as many instances as will fit in available memory (for example, if you have 16GB RAM, run 7 instances of 2047MB each).

    Finally, the best choice is Google Stress App (GSAT); I have linked how ASUS prefers RAM to be tested with GSAT. I'll quote ASUS on HCI Memtest vs GSAT: "The Windows version of HCI Memtest is a good test for hammering the cache and memory simultaneously. Googlestressap is more memory focused and picks out memory related errors faster than HCI Memtest does." GSAT should be run for a minimum of an hour. An overnight test of 10 hours with either HCI Memtest or GSAT is best to declare RAM or motherboard problems to be extremely unlikely.

    I have also seen unupdated motherboard BIOS and chipset drivers cause RAM to act bad until they were updated. If you look at changelogs for PC BIOSes, they often consist mostly of "improving RAM compatibility". If you have never updated your motherboard's BIOS or chipset drivers, you may want to try doing that, especially if the RAM tests only throw errors very rarely.

  • Leamas.5803Leamas.5803 Member ✭✭
    edited October 19, 2017

    @DeWolfe.2174 said:
    This is the throwing spaghetti at the wall and seeing what sticks list. :)

    EXACTLY!! On top of what you listed, I've also tried (Was getting desperate and grasping at straws):
    ** Disabling various features in the BIOS that I don't use, such as RAID controllers
    ** Tried many different versions of video drivers, mostly minimal installs, to see and one was more stable than another (Which was the case).
    ** Various windows security settings that I no longer remember
    ** Swapping to a different KB/mouse combination (Cheap test)
    ** Changed the monitor (Wanted a bigger one)
    ** Changing all the memory (Had some dead stuff, so was a free replacement)
    ** Had the PSU load tested (3 times)
    ** Brought it to the shop and left it with them and they stress tested various things for an entire week. Found nothing.
    ** Reinstalled Windows and tested GW2 on a "clean" install...twice
    ** Moved Windows and GW2 from a HDD to a SSD and moved the system drive to a different port on the MB.
    ** Removed all USB attached devices, other than the mouse and KB
    ** Ran GW2 with the repair option to validate the file cache

    I'm sure I did other things that neither you or I mentioned as well, but it's been some time. My conclusion ultimately was two forked, 1. "Something" in the machine was just flaky AND 2. GW2 is doing "something" (Be it a bug, or rarely used functionality) most other applications do not and that is triggering a crash.

    I did NOT try a new video card or replacing any other hardware other than what I've already listed. I could not justify the cost for the sake of a single game since the computer still to this day, now nearly 5 years old, has no issues in any other game or application other than GW2. That has been the case since I bought the computer new in 2012...so it is not hardware degradation.

  • An> @Leamas.5803 said:

    @DeWolfe.2174 said:
    This is the throwing spaghetti at the wall and seeing what sticks list. :)

    EXACTLY!! On top of what you listed, I've also tried (Was getting desperate and grasping at straws):
    ** Disabling various features in the BIOS that I don't use, such as RAID controllers
    ** Tried many different versions of video drivers, mostly minimal installs, to see and one was more stable than another (Which was the case).
    ** Various windows security settings that I no longer remember
    ** Swapping to a different KB/mouse combination (Cheap test)
    ** Changed the monitor (Wanted a bigger one)
    ** Changing all the memory (Had some dead stuff, so was a free replacement)
    ** Had the PSU load tested (3 times)
    ** Brought it to the shop and left it with them and they stress tested various things for an entire week. Found nothing.
    ** Reinstalled Windows and tested GW2 on a "clean" install...twice
    ** Moved Windows and GW2 from a HDD to a SSD and moved the system drive to a different port on the MB.
    ** Removed all USB attached devices, other than the mouse and KB
    ** Ran GW2 with the repair option to validate the file cache

    I'm sure I did other things that neither you or I mentioned as well, but it's been some time. My conclusion ultimately was two forked, 1. "Something" in the machine was just flaky AND 2. GW2 is doing "something" (Be it a bug, or rarely used functionality) most other applications do not and that is triggering a crash.

    I did NOT try a new video card or replacing any other hardware other than what I've already listed. I could not justify the cost for the sake of a single game since the computer still to this day, now nearly 5 years old, has no issues in any other game or application other than GW2. That has been the case since I bought the computer new in 2012...so it is not hardware degradation.

    Also most hardware stress test does not perform complex testing - i.e. simultaneously CPU+GPU+RAM+Disk and other, which would allow testing the stability of the system as a whole including power supply.

    It seems, in your case, being in Lion Arch acts like power supply stress test.

  • Leamas.5803Leamas.5803 Member ✭✭
    edited October 20, 2017

    @vpchelko.4261 said:
    Also most hardware stress test does not perform complex testing - i.e. simultaneously CPU+GPU+RAM+Disk and other, which would allow testing the stability of the system as a whole including power supply.

    It seems, in your case, being in Lion Arch acts like power supply stress test.

    That's what system benchmarks are supposed to do. Either way, it still only happens in GW2. The most similar games I've played to it are ESO and FFXIV and neither had any issues at all. In fact, in order to keep playing GW2 while I was playing the other two, I had to find another solution because neither ESO or FFXIV would work on the ancient video driver I was using because GW2 was the most stable with it. For a while I would install/uninstall drivers, depending on what I was playing, but that wasn't a feasible solution. At the time the driver releases were in the 350s I was still using 306.97. While I still had crashing, anything newer than that made GW2 completely unplayable, while everything else was happier.

  • DemonSeed.3528DemonSeed.3528 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Since the last time I posted in this thread the crashes had stopped in the meantime - that is until the last patch. Last night I got a random hard freeze, no error message, had to manual restart PC. There were people getting a lot of lag and disconnections at the time before this happened but that is a different matter. Couldn't be bothered to log back in to continue my guild raid.

  • Yesterday I've changed my PSU to the new one as most ppl says it's almost always PSU issue. Tested game with it today and guess what? I've got random system restart in the Deset Highlands map. So it wasn't my PSU after all. Well, i'm about to give up with it...

  • DemonSeed.3528DemonSeed.3528 Member ✭✭✭✭

    There's something going on with the last patch definitely, all kinds of other old bugs are also popping up, like slow loads, stuff not rendering, team chat not working again, etc. Wonder what was changed, it's causing some kind of domino effect. Getting mega lag as well on top of it all.