Thoughts - Post Season 14 - From Different Class Perspectives

Point of this thread is to drop your subjective points of views on the current intra-class balance post S14, from the class or classes that you main.

I'm going to give my subjective points of view from the perspective of a Ranger main. During S14, I mained DPS Soulbeast and Bunker Druid interchangeably depending on which was more advantageous to play during the given match. I chose to play Bunker Druid over Boonbeast because although Boonbeast is a better 1v1 than a Bunker Druid in terms of slightly more DPS for kill power, the Bunker Druid is still a better 1v2 node stale, and better in 2v2s or team fights because it can heal team mates. All in all, current Boonbeast and the better Bunker Druid setups are almost identical in the use of axe/axe and specializations selected, outside of the difference in their elites.

Spellbreaker: Damage is maaaaaybe a bit too high after buffs to Forceful Greatsword, and I feel it is beginning to lack sustain. Not in a bad place but could be better.

• As DPS Soulbeast - Either kill or get killed immediately.
• As Bunker Druid - Stalemate in most cases. Though the new sword/shield Spellbreaker variants or just very high DPS variants in general, can be capable of killing a Bunker Druid if CCs are landed at the correct time. Likewise, they are squishy enough that the Bunker Druid can kill them if the stars do not align and they are unable to land CCs at the right time.

Herald: It's in a good place from what I've seen, but it requires just the right team comp to play be able to play correctly.

• As DPS Soulbeast - Heralds counter DPS Soulbeasts so long as the Soulebeast doesn't sucker punch them before they are ready to engage.
• As Bunker Druid - Axe 5 retaliation alone counters Heralds. Then the Druid has too much sustain for the Herald to kill and the Herald's heal skill is useless when the Druid wins with attrition damage instead of burst damage. Druids counter Heralds.

Core Guard: Clearly the dominant Core Class, viable amongst meta, not actually meta.

• As DPS Soulbeast - Pretty equal match up actually.
• As Bunker Druid - Bunker Druid counters Core Guard in the same way Boonbeast counters Core Guard. Mainly due to Axe 5 retal, and high defensive values that the Core Guard ultimately cannot keep up with.

Firebrand: Eeeeeeeh I've seen good ones and I've seen bad ones. Seems like only the GOOD FBs kept playing after tome CD increase. Not so easy to spam FB anymore.

• As DPS Soulbeast - DPS Soulbeast counters FB hard. This is a primary reason to log out/back in as a DPS Soulbeast for certain matches.
• As Bunker Druid - Saying "It's balanced" doesn't even begin to adequately describe the tears that happen when a FB and a Bunker Druid meet on a neutral node 1v1 and get locked into a combat that goes no where while both players are waiting for a + to show up.

Boonbeast: It's a better 1v1 than a Druid as it can deal damage to actually kill an opponent or run it off a node in the long run, but it is still not as good of a 1v2er as a Druid because it lacks the extreme defensive measures that Druid provides, and a Druid is still better in 2v2s or team fights because it can heal its team mates. Not sure if I'd say Boonbeast is still OP or not, hard to tell from the perspective of a Bunker Druid.

• As DPS Soulbeast - The Boonbeast counters DPS Soulbeast for many reasons.
• As Bunker Druid - Stalemate, if both players are good, neither player can kill the other without a bit of luck or a +, but it isn't as boring of a fight as against the FB. Both players actually have to pay attention or they could die if they get lazy & sloppy.

Holosmith: Lots of variant builds going around lately. I don't think it's necessarily OP, but some of it's attacks still need to be addressed in terms of how much random ultra range they have. <- That's for certain.

• As DPS Soulbeast - They're an easy kill after the change of SRD into EE, if you can get the jump and lead in damage on them. Not so easy of a kill if they are ready to engage that first burst. I'd say it's a solid balanced match up if the DPS Soulbeast can play well.
• As Bunker Druid - 9/10 Holos are easily countered by Bunker Druid, again for those Axe 5 retal reasons. If the Holo is good and avoids retail, he will eventually run the Bunker Druid off a node in the long run, and possibly have a chance of killing it if the Bunker Druid messes up his kiting.

All Forms Of Thieves: Maybe I have bias because I run Ranger specs which are known for countering Thieves, but I feel Thieves are underperforming at this point as compared to previous seasons & metas, specifically in the sustain department. In this power crept high DPS meta, they get hit hard by EVERYTHING, including random 1 autos from something like a Bunker Druid. I would like to point out that players should give good Thief players props, because in this current DPS meta, they are playing GW2 on hard mode.

• As DPS Soulbeast - It just counters and destroys Thief specs unless the Thief gets an enormously powerful lead in attack.
• As Bunker Druid - Absolutely no chance of a Thief spec killing this 1v1 unless the Druid lags or his mouse starts bugging out, or the Druid is drunk or way too tired to be playing. The only exception to this is a top notch Deadeye. Sometimes a good DE can get you if they stealth in and play sneaky, stay patient, and catch you off guard.

All forms of Necromancers: I feel like Reaper is in a great place, but Scourge is a bit lack luster at this point. Scourge had many of it's boon corrupts removed to nerf it in the past, but since then so many buffs have happened to increase the frequency of boon application on other classes and their durations, that Scourge may need some of its boon corrupts reimplemented to maintain its class function and purpose.

• As DPS Soulbeast - The most severe counter possible vs Necromancers.
• As Bunker Druid - Lately I can 1v1 Reapers or Scourges on nodes, due to the virtue of weakness spam, and deal enough damage over time to actually kill them. I don't think I would say Bunker Druid is a hard counter so to say, but they win the end.

Mirages & Chronos: I'll let the persistent Mesmer complaint threads handle most of this, but I will say that although Mirages & Chronos may not necessarily be OP, they are the most obnoxious and not fun class to play against. Every other class feels fun to engage, with straight forward intuitive dynamics. Even Deadeyes "which are commonly complained about due to their high stealth uptime", are at least straight forward to deal with when they reveal granting an opening, or stealth and you have to LOS attempting to lure them into a bad situation. Engaging Mesmer based classes on the other hand as of 2019, it feels like you're standing in a big confetti storm, can't see anything, and there are 10 people who look the same, running around you in circles while firing taser guns at your face. This ultra silly gimmicky play gets old and just feels cheap after awhile. Maybe Arenanet should consider lowering the total amount of clone spam frequency, but slightly increasing the power of those clones to compensate. This would lower the pixel spam and in general reduce the amount of unintended advantages that clone spam grants.

• As DPS Soulbeast - You can kill power based Mesmer builds, but just run from condi based.
• As Bunker Druid - You can 1v1 most Mesmer based builds and eventually kill them, but the better players while on Condi based specs, can eventually decap you or possibly kill you, if you mess up at all. Druid is on the other hand very strong vs power Mesmer based builds.

Weavers: They are in a much better place now and at least viable, still not a meta.

• As DPS Soulbeast - You explode all ele builds due to lowest health pool.
• As Bunker Druid - You can kill DPS based Eles pretty quickly, but good Eles that are sustainy turns into a 1v1 stalemate.

A few other suggestions/concerns/comments:

1. Match manipulation & 3rd party program use seemed lower this season. At least I wasn't effected by it as much. Felt like less shenanigans.
2. There are way too many people using alts to block top 25 leaderboard positions. I am sure they probably own these accounts and that technically there probably isn't anything going on that breaks the TOS, but is there really nothing that can be done about this?
3. Boosters - Would it be possible to implement special boosters that effect spvp directly and nothing else? Maybe boosters that say "+25% gain to reward track progress and maybe even pip progression", and they would work for a certain amount of matches instead of a timer count down. The timer count down for spvp is just a bad design considering wait times between ranked and ATs, also when a player wants to leave the mists to do something else. The normal booster timers just get wasted in spvp and are better used in pve farming for wvw, where gains made are actually worth the use of the booster.
4. Please re-add the 2v2 ATs, that was a lot of fun. Just fix the arenas so the gates close after the match starts, and it spits each team into the actual arena, so they can't camp the spawn.
5. Remove some of the obstructive visual clutter around the side nodes in the Djinn map. That map's objective also needs a lot of buffing.
6. You guys gotta seriously considering omitting f2p accounts from playing in ranked mode at all. There are several reasons for this that I don't have the time to go into.
7. Oh and, pvp guild missions need some kind of a serious overhaul. I'd love to see there be a reason to run teams through a guild again. That'd be great.

~ Welp, that's about it. Ty for your time.

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

All Forms Of Thieves: Maybe I have bias because I run Ranger specs which are known for countering Thieves, but I feel Thieves are underperforming at this point as compared to previous seasons & metas, specifically in the sustain department. In this power crept high DPS meta, they get hit hard by EVERYTHING, including random 1 autos from something like a Bunker Druid. I would like to point out that players should give good Thief players props, because in this current DPS meta, they are playing GW2 on hard mode.

• As DPS Soulbeast - It just counters and destroys Thief specs unless the Thief gets an enormously powerful lead in attack.
• As Bunker Druid - Absolutely no chance of a Thief spec killing this 1v1 unless the Druid lags or his mouse starts bugging out, or the Druid is drunk or way too tired to be playing. The only exception to this is a top notch Deadeye. Sometimes a good DE can get you if they stealth in and play sneaky, stay patient, and catch you off guard.

I love you.

Regarding the rest;I think I disagree with the Boonbeast vs Bunker Druid, assuming the fight is on Node then due to Celestial Shadow on Druid the Boonbeast will more than likely win the Node sooner or later, making it essentialy a win for Boonbeast and waste for Druid.

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:I'm going to give my subjective points of view from the perspective of a Ranger main. During S14, I mained DPS Soulbeast and Bunker Druid interchangeably depending on which was more advantageous to play during the given match. I chose to play Bunker Druid over Boonbeast because although Boonbeast is a better 1v1 than a Bunker Druid in terms of slightly more DPS for kill power, the Bunker Druid is still a better 1v2 node stale, and better in 2v2s or team fights because it can heal team mates. All in all, current Boonbeast and the better Bunker Druid setups are almost identical in the use of axe/axe and specializations selected, outside of the difference in their elites.

Spellbreaker: Damage is maaaaaybe a bit too high after buffs to Forceful Greatsword, and I feel it is beginning to lack sustain. Not in a bad place but could be better.

• As DPS Soulbeast - Either kill or get killed immediately.
• As Bunker Druid - Stalemate in most cases. Though the new sword/shield Spellbreaker variants or just very high DPS variants in general, can be capable of killing a Bunker Druid if CCs are landed at the correct time. Likewise, they are squishy enough that the Bunker Druid can kill them if the stars do not align and they are unable to land CCs at the right time.

Herald: It's in a good place from what I've seen, but it requires just the right team comp to play be able to play correctly.

• As DPS Soulbeast - Heralds counter DPS Soulbeasts so long as the Soulebeast doesn't sucker punch them before they are ready to engage.
• As Bunker Druid - Axe 5 retaliation alone counters Heralds. Then the Druid has too much sustain for the Herald to kill and the Herald's heal skill is useless when the Druid wins with attrition damage instead of burst damage. Druids counter Heralds.

Core Guard: Clearly the dominant Core Class, viable amongst meta, not actually meta.

• As DPS Soulbeast - Pretty equal match up actually.
• As Bunker Druid - Bunker Druid counters Core Guard in the same way Boonbeast counters Core Guard. Mainly due to Axe 5 retal, and high defensive values that the Core Guard ultimately cannot keep up with.

Firebrand: Eeeeeeeh I've seen good ones and I've seen bad ones. Seems like only the GOOD FBs kept playing after tome CD increase. Not so easy to spam FB anymore.

• As DPS Soulbeast - DPS Soulbeast counters FB hard. This is a primary reason to log out/back in as a DPS Soulbeast for certain matches.
• As Bunker Druid - Saying "It's balanced" doesn't even begin to adequately describe the tears that happen when a FB and a Bunker Druid meet on a neutral node 1v1 and get locked into a combat that goes no where while both players are waiting for a + to show up.

Boonbeast: It's a better 1v1 than a Druid as it can deal damage to actually kill an opponent or run it off a node in the long run, but it is still not as good of a 1v2er as a Druid because it lacks the extreme defensive measures that Druid provides, and a Druid is still better in 2v2s or team fights because it can heal its team mates. Not sure if I'd say Boonbeast is still OP or not, hard to tell from the perspective of a Bunker Druid.

• As DPS Soulbeast - The Boonbeast counters DPS Soulbeast for many reasons.
• As Bunker Druid - Stalemate, if both players are good, neither player can kill the other without a bit of luck or a +, but it isn't as boring of a fight as against the FB. Both players actually have to pay attention or they could die if they get lazy & sloppy.

Holosmith: Lots of variant builds going around lately. I don't think it's necessarily OP, but some of it's attacks still need to be addressed in terms of how much random ultra range they have. <- That's for certain.

• As DPS Soulbeast - They're an easy kill after the change of SRD into EE, if you can get the jump and lead in damage on them. Not so easy of a kill if they are ready to engage that first burst. I'd say it's a solid balanced match up if the DPS Soulbeast can play well.
• As Bunker Druid - 9/10 Holos are easily countered by Bunker Druid, again for those Axe 5 retal reasons. If the Holo is good and avoids retail, he will eventually run the Bunker Druid off a node in the long run, and possibly have a chance of killing it if the Bunker Druid messes up his kiting.

All Forms Of Thieves: Maybe I have bias because I run Ranger specs which are known for countering Thieves, but I feel Thieves are underperforming at this point as compared to previous seasons & metas, specifically in the sustain department. In this power crept high DPS meta, they get hit hard by EVERYTHING, including random 1 autos from something like a Bunker Druid. I would like to point out that players should give good Thief players props, because in this current DPS meta, they are playing GW2 on hard mode.

• As DPS Soulbeast - It just counters and destroys Thief specs unless the Thief gets an enormously powerful lead in attack.
• As Bunker Druid - Absolutely no chance of a Thief spec killing this 1v1 unless the Druid lags or his mouse starts bugging out, or the Druid is drunk or way too tired to be playing. The only exception to this is a top notch Deadeye. Sometimes a good DE can get you if they stealth in and play sneaky, stay patient, and catch you off guard.

All forms of Necromancers: I feel like Reaper is in a great place, but Scourge is a bit lack luster at this point. Scourge had many of it's boon corrupts removed to nerf it in the past, but since then so many buffs have happened to increase the frequency of boon application on other classes and their durations, that Scourge may need some of its boon corrupts reimplemented to maintain its class function and purpose.

• As DPS Soulbeast - The most severe counter possible vs Necromancers.
• As Bunker Druid - Lately I can 1v1 Reapers or Scourges on nodes, due to the virtue of weakness spam, and deal enough damage over time to actually kill them. I don't think I would say Bunker Druid is a hard counter so to say, but they win the end.

Mirages & Chronos: I'll let the persistent Mesmer complaint threads handle most of this, but I will say that although Mirages & Chronos may not necessarily be OP, they are the most obnoxious and not fun class to play against. Every other class feels fun to engage, with straight forward intuitive dynamics. Even Deadeyes "which are commonly complained about due to their high stealth uptime", are at least straight forward to deal with when they reveal granting an opening, or stealth and you have to LOS attempting to lure them into a bad situation. Engaging Mesmer based classes on the other hand as of 2019, it feels like you're standing in a big confetti storm, can't see anything, and there are 10 people who look the same, running around you in circles while firing taser guns at your face. This ultra silly gimmicky play gets old and just feels cheap after awhile. Maybe Arenanet should consider lowering the total amount of clone spam frequency, but slightly increasing the power of those clones to compensate. This would lower the pixel spam and in general reduce the amount of unintended advantages that clone spam grants.

• As DPS Soulbeast - You can kill power based Mesmer builds, but just run from condi based.
• As Bunker Druid - You can 1v1 most Mesmer based builds and eventually kill them, but the better players while on Condi based specs, can eventually decap you or possibly kill you, if you mess up at all. Druid is on the other hand very strong vs power Mesmer based builds.

Weavers: They are in a much better place now and at least viable, still not a meta.

• As DPS Soulbeast - You explode all ele builds due to lowest health pool.
• As Bunker Druid - You can kill DPS based Eles pretty quickly, but good Eles that are sustainy turns into a 1v1 stalemate.

A few other suggestions/concerns/comments:

1. Match manipulation & 3rd party program use seemed lower this season. At least I wasn't effected by it as much. Felt like less shenanigans.
2. There are way too many people using alts to block top 25 leaderboard positions. I am sure they probably own these accounts and that technically there probably isn't anything going on that breaks the TOS, but is there really nothing that can be done about this?
3. Boosters - Would it be possible to implement special boosters that effect spvp directly and nothing else? Maybe boosters that say "+25% gain to reward track progress and maybe even pip progression", and they would work for a certain amount of matches instead of a timer count down. The timer count down for spvp is just a bad design considering wait times between ranked and ATs, also when a player wants to leave the mists to do something else. The normal booster timers just get wasted in spvp and are better used in pve farming for wvw, where gains made are actually worth the use of the booster.
4. Please re-add the 2v2 ATs, that was a lot of fun. Just fix the arenas so the gates close after the match starts, and it spits each team into the actual arena, so they can't camp the spawn.
5. Remove some of the obstructive visual clutter around the side nodes in the Djinn map. That map's objective also needs a lot of buffing.
6. You guys gotta seriously considering omitting f2p accounts from playing in ranked mode at all. There are several reasons for this that I don't have the time to go into.
7. Oh and, pvp guild missions need some kind of a serious overhaul. I'd love to see there be a reason to run teams through a guild again. That'd be great.

~ Welp, that's about it. Ty for your time.

Look at you, changing your opinion on Warrior damage to "maaaaaybe" being too much with the Forceful Greatsword change. I'll take a maybe, means you're weighing it more compared to other classes and their damage. I don't think any Warrior would necessarily argue against you about sustain since they've really only hit it with nerfs (Adrenal Health got hit twice with 10% reduction in healing in sPvP and Healing Signet also has had its passive healing reduced over time in PvP) at this point a buff to it would probably make people complain more about fighting the class but if they nerf it...thats it for Warrior.

i wonder what value it has to watch matchups and balance from a perspective of a busted profession?

not saying it has no value at all - thx for the effort and i enjoyed the reading. but discussing anything balance related from a ranger perspective is like talking from an ivory tower.

@shinta.8906 said:but discussing anything balance related from a ranger perspective is like talking from an ivory tower.

You should follow up on @Trevor Boyer.6524 past posts... He's not one sided... He even asked for soulbeast nerfs before... When WI had a massive ohko potential with stacking MOC...

Ranger community is the only place we ask to Nerf ourselves (among many others) to make the game fun to play with for other builds and professions and feel a lil more balanced

@"shinta.8906" The idea is that, if at least one person for each class who all played around 1600+ were to take the time to do what I did, it forms an excellent spreadsheet of "what's going on within the meta balancing" for Arenanet to look at. Nothing more, nothing less.

understood

Nice idea, let me contribute a bit.

Talking mainly from a weaver's perspective here. I rarely switched to troll classes, most of my serious games were on a condi weaver variant using sage's amulet and different runes. It is still designed as a side node bunker, but with more damage and less sustain.

Warrior:I still feel like the nerfs addressed the wrong issues. I found the damage of demo spellbreaker to be okayish - the sustain for such an amulet was too much. They should have made the passive heals scale a lot more with healing power, so warriors could either go for serious damage/+1 role with demo or bunker with mender or paladin.It is usually a longer fight. Depending on skill, CDs available or luck, warrior either kills me with rampage (lol) or I drive him off point, but it is a long and boring fight. I wish they would allow them those two roles dcescribed above though.

Herald:Dangerous +1 build, since weaver still is vulnerable to power bursts. It is very dangerous and usually not killable as long as he doesn't overextend and stays in range for condis to kill him. Also impossible to run away when he +1s. Healthy spot from weaver's perspective.

Guard:Firebrand is absolutely unkillable and negates my influence in team fights significantly. Weaver has almost no cover conditions, so he effectively shuts down a lot of my damage. Unkillable in duels, even the few duelist variants running around.Core guard is kinda the same like rev/herald. Dangerous +1 role, which is healthy. They last a lot longer in duels, but assuming same skill level, I drive them away eventually. They have so many cleanses...But all in all, okayish.

Ranger:Boonbeast is the bane of my build. I can not kill them, I can only try to survive and stalemate. They can save their CDs for a +1, I have to use lots of them to survive. Awful. It does everything I do but a lot better.Drooids are just stalemates, power soulbeasts powerful +1s. I haven't seen many of either of them though.

Holosmith:I feel like they are in a good spot. Might be different for other classes. They usually can't outsustain me on points, because they lack cleanses, but they have a lot bigger effect on many other fights - being able to +1, team fight and roam. Deleting the auto elixir S was great - now they have one less out of jail card against +1s.Sidenote: On my zerker chrono troll build, holo used to be really tough, because they could survive and resustain several times. Without the elixir, I could finally +1 them properly, which is great.

Thief:Daredevil is awful to play against, assuming equal skill level (and CDs, situation etc.), they always drive me off point when they +1, immediately. No way to punish them, because of range, stealth and lack of proper AoEs.Other thieves actually kinda lack sustain indeed. D/P or core thieves usually can't down me in a +1 immediately, and at the same time they can hardly contribute to DPS me down before they have to start to disengage because of conditions. That might be because they expect mender weavers and are surprised, but those are +1s I often survive and resustain before they cap a point.Deadeye should be changed, the damage is good, but they should become punishable. I think the nerfs were (once again) not goind in the right direction, they should not have changed the power but the disengage capabilities. Other builds should have be looked at sustained damage for +1s, not necessarily burst.

Necromancer:Scourge is usually extremely tough to kill, especially in team fights. The cleanses are enough for a weaver, the barriers and stuff... in duel scenarios I wear them down eventually, but it usually takes too long to be of good use. Hoeever, they are team fighters and as such I feel in a good spot.Reaper has the same role like rev or core guard for me. +1 power damage, very dangerous, usually drives me off point immediately. It is countered though by several other builds, so I think it is okay.

Mesmer:Condi mirage is still awful. Due to my higher damage but less sustain, it often does not end up in a stalemate, but in a long and boring fight, where I don't have opportunities to counter attack. I decap, then the point stays neutral.Power variants are the usual dangerous power +1 role. But more easily punishable than DE, while the bursts are more dangerous.

Elementalist:Tempests basically don't exist, bunker weavers re stalemates, FA weavers - those few still playing - are tough, but they lack the sustained burst of the other power +1s when counter pressured. I still would like to the the damage nerfs revoked and other changes like FA having an internal CD of 1s tried. Well...

Conclusion:Due to nerfs to other classes (except boonbeast lol), weaver indeed is in a better spot. I usually win most of my duels except soulbeast and most mirages. I also feel like condi weaver is how condi builds should be - slowly applying the damage, wearing the opponent down. However, it is still extremely vulnerable when caught off guard, with no escape CDs left (which have a long CD, RtL 15/30s, LF 40s or ToF 50s).

My wishes are:Reduce condi application by condi mirage and scourge, at the same time reduce cleanses from firebrand - and also from weaver. This way, conditions are not as extremely punishing for builds not having massed cleanses (or block, invulns, etc.), but also condi build variety would increase. Not talking about condi thief, but ranger, engi, even burn guards...

Also, nerf boonbeast spam. Adjust/slightly buff warriors, thief. With this, I think there would be few changes necessary for weaver (except those small range increases I have been asking for a year now...).

As I said, everything from my weaver's perspective.

Good read so far - thank you for the effort Trevor & Megametzler

u should put your server / and rating before u write all this.

This has been the best season for me so far.

@Liza.2758 said:u should put your server / and rating before u write all this.

pretty sure trev plays solid platinum 2 not sure about mega

@Liza.2758 I'm currently 1650 NA and I plan on ending the season that way. It should be enough to seal the deal for top 100 unless rating expectations rise dramatically by tomorrow's reset & season finish.

@Liza.2758 said:u should put your server / and rating before u write all this.

EU, usually Plat3, this season I was abroad and didn't have time and proper connection, so around 1650 and too few games (~70).

This looks fun — For my games/duels/observations this season as a Holosmith and Warrior on NA. Ranked between 1620-1650. I don't do enough games in a season to place on the LB.

Warrior:Shakeups mid-season threw a lot of warriors through a loop. I don't think they changed the strength of the class, though. They are still super sustainable, have great damage and are great side-noders. With that said, I do think Rampage deserves a cooldown increase.

As a warrior: I struggle most on my build vs a good thief (they can interrupt at the right times, plus unblockables) and a Condi mes, as my build doesn't have a ton of condi cleanse.As a holo: There are a few warrior builds out there right now that absolutely counter rifle holo, but this is a fairly fun matchup.

Herald:This class is in a pretty darn good spot, in my opinion. Players that know what they're doing can have massive impact, but players that don't understand the class give it a bad name. I could still see some damage shaves for this spec if they got some sustain buffs.

As a warrior: Their unblockables can be deadly, but I often can just 100-0 them with the help of bull's rush.As a holo: This is a 50/50 matchup, it's super fair and fun if the players are on the same skill level.

Guard:Firebrand + Core guard — build diversity is great for guardian as a class, with two firebrand builds and core guard + a small core variant. I think Firebrand has a bit too much access to sustain when it departs from a healing role. It can absolutely melt a ton of specs when FB mains switch to DPS. Core guard is great, but I'd like to see the invuln on their elite get a small pre-cast to allow for interrupt counterplay.

As a warrior: I easily can deal with healing FBs, but have a hard time with DPS FBs. Core guard is a fun matchup, as they have a ton of utility. I've been killed by core guards, but feel like warrior has the edge.As a holo: Same as warrior on this one.

Ranger:Soulbeast is in a position right now that I hate to see — one where I feel the class deserves absolute nerfhammer treatment. One thing I immediately would like to see changes in is how the pet dies/is revived. Soulbeasts shouldn't be able to merge with a dead pet, first of all, and second of all, they shouldn't be able to revive their pets so easily. Soulbeasts also have way too much sustain and damage, and I believe one immediate way to address this is to shave mainhand axe right away. Bunker druids are annoying, but transparent enough that the fight has counterplay.

As a warrior: I can combat soulbeasts, but it's extremely annoying and not fun to play against. I'd say soulbeast has the edge if they dodge my two stuns.As a Holo: I go back and forth. I can kill them, but they so frequently escape and are able to resustain, it's insane. I think holo has the edge.

Holosmith:I'll start off by saying I'm a Holo main, and I love the class, but if you check my post history, I've been a proponent for shaves/nerfs to the right things on Holo. I think it's in a great place right now, honestly. They removed some of the access to quickness, which was needed, and I think it's performing pretty much on par with the meta right now. They do in my opinion need to shave the damage on either Holo Auto or Holo Leap, as well as shave the distance of Holo Shockwave. Sidenote: I love the build diversity right now. There's like 4 builds that are viable right now in different roles/comps.

As a warrior: I counter Holos, maybe because I main Holo and know their tricks.As a Holo: If you know holo well, you can 100-0 other holos. It's all about denying access to stability. Sidenote: if you put chill on an average holo, they're toast.

Thief:I'm glad to see multiple thief builds in use, but I think thief is underperfroming as a whole. I very much disagree with the role of deadeye, as well as its mechanics, but the nerfs to deadeye have brought it into a place that I definitely don't think it needs nerfs. I think thieves honestly just need more access to HP/sustainability for a slight shave in stealth or in mobility. I know that might be controversial.

As a warrior: A thief with a pistol can kill me if they're good. If it's a deadeye, it's game over for the deadeye.As a Holo: I can kill most thieves. If I'm on my AED/Rocket Boots build, I can outrotate thieves.

Necromancer:Scourge: I feel like it's far too easy to just spam condis on scourge, but I don't think scourge is in an OP state as a whole right now? I think the gameplay could be changed to make it a bit more complex, but I don't know how. I will say, if you know how to position yourself as a scourge, you can be absolutely elite. I've seen insane positioning that absolutely changes games.Reaper: Better the lower you go tier wise. I get sad to see reapers on my team when we have no firebrand/support/teamfight, but if it's a good reaper, it can be on par with other DPS/1v1 specs.

As a warrior: Scourges are a bain to me, but I can kill them. Reapers die.As a holo: I have access to counterplay against scourges, but good scourges can outplay whole teams if they do it right. Reapers die.

Mesmer:I don't know where to begin. I don't want to sound like a forum pleb (although I am writing a post on the forums) but I feel like Condi mirage has so many issues it's not funny. It has easy access to huge stacks of torment and confusion, all while being able to reflect all ranged projectiles, easily escape stuns, drop target and reposition. It's not impossible to kill mirages, but they're so NOT fun to play against, it makes me not want to play ranked.Chronomancers are interesting to play against, and I appreciate seeing burst mesmers come back into play a bit.

As a warrior: I can kill burst mesmers. I have a REALLY hard time against condi mirages because I can't outsustain their condis. Simple. If I dodge everything perfectly and interrupt them after baiting dodges, I can kill them, but that's just outplaying an oponent, it has nothing to do with the game.As a holo: Certain mirages can shut certain holo builds down, absolutely. I can beat power burst.

Elementalist:Going to spend a small amount of time on ele, just to make a point about how I hate where ele is in the meta and in the game. What happened to d/d, anet? I absolutely disdain how core ele has been ignored.Sword weaver is the third most annoying thing in ranked pvp right now, behind condi mirage and soulbeast. It doesn't do enough good for the team, and most often these players aren't great.Weaver burst can be great when played well. I love seeing great FA weavers, but they're rare.

As a Warrior: I kill themAs a Holo: I kill them.

Conclusion:I think the game is in an OK place after the most recent balance patch, but it could be made better by limiting the amount of versatility a mirage has in a single action: IE a dodge equals a stunbreak, reflect and damage. And shaving soulbeast, as well as damage as a whole across the board.My big conclusion is power+condicreep is real, and all damage sources in the game should be toned down while making more things viable, not fewer.

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:@Liza.2758 I'm currently 1650 NA and I plan on ending the season that way. It should be enough to seal the deal for top 100 unless rating expectations rise dramatically by tomorrow's reset & season finish.

Lol im at the exact same rating in NA. Crossing my fingers that it locks in the top 100 title. I think we should be safe :+1:

So op class counters almost anything...fear nothing except sometimes mesmer...

op conclusion : every class is ok and engaging to fight ...except mesmer...

I assume Anet must eradicate condi mirage so thateverything is smoothly designed and balanced....for rangers.

Ok...thank you.

@Sampson.2403 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:@Liza.2758 I'm currently 1650 NA and I plan on ending the season that way. It should be enough to seal the deal for top 100 unless rating expectations rise dramatically by tomorrow's reset & season finish.

Sidebar, didn't you formally play Ele, and now you've gone to the dark condi side?

@Mbelch.9028 said:

@Sampson.2403 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:@Liza.2758 I'm currently 1650 NA and I plan on ending the season that way. It should be enough to seal the deal for top 100 unless rating expectations rise dramatically by tomorrow's reset & season finish.

I've always played power mesmer until this season where anet basically forced me to play a hybrid condi mesmer.

I didn't play much ranked this season as I don't enjoy the environment that comes with it (I mostly like to play to have a good time with friends which ranked doesn't provide me with). That being said, when I played ranked I was sitting around 1610-1670 on NA. I main holo and thief, playing rev a lot to try and get it to a higher level as I really enjoy the class.

Warrior:I feel like the class is pretty solid, some skills seem to do a bit too much (bull's charge hitting for around 6k on crits when it also has an evade and a cc attached to it) but those complaints are fairly trivial in the grand scheme of things. Rampage isn't really OP, but it is up way too often and I find myself fighting more rampages than warriors nowadays. A small cd increase to that would probably be all the class needs atm.

As a holo: I enjoy the fight as it can go either way depending on who lands their ccs better and manages stab/defensive skill uptime more efficiently.As a rev: VERY fun but risky fight. The lack of stab or sustain on rev forces you to play very well in the fight as you can't afford to eat their cc and burst (you can break the stuns but often it drains your energy too quickly and you lose from a lack of cds in that case). The warrior's tether in this fight is incredibly frustrating to play against as rev can't keep up with the war if he decides to run to activate the pull but the rev also has to maintain distance at times to avoid taking too much damage in trades.As a thief: can be won, but 1v1 takes too long and goes against thief logic so I won't really comment on that too much

Guard:Core is in a great spot, not fully meta but still competitive when played by someone with a good understanding of it. The immob on F1 trait really helped to improve the reliability of their damage combos and bursts. Also adds another level of awareness to the fight when you are fighting them, as anticipating those bursts and the F1 timing will be the difference between winning or losing. FB is still solid when played by someone who is skilled with it but isn't near as strong as it was before due to nerfs. I have very few comments for that (meaning I don't have enough knowledge of it to comfortably comment on it)

As a holo: Fighting core guard is fun, but relies a great deal on avoiding the f1 immob. If you are caught with it, it will either force an elixer s from you to avoid the burst or you will get absolutely shredded by the damage.As a rev: Also a great fight to take. I do feel like rev damage is incredibly helpful to have when the enemy has a fb on their team as fb struggles to outheal that damage. No complaints here.As a thief: Obviously this is a biased perspective, but fighting guard on thief is not a fun time. The damage trades are incredibly difficult to take, and s/d can struggle to do enough damage to take the guard down in a reasonable amount of time. But, it is much more doable than it used to be thanks to sword 3 having double unblockable hits plus the 50% hp damage immunity.

Rev:Rev is in a solid spot overall but I feel like it's for the wrong reasons. Most of their damage is reliant on OH sword which forces them to take it to ensure they have enough damage to actually win fights. There are a few things that could change this: removing the root on shield 5, reducing OH sword's damage a little, removing target splits from sword 2 and 3, and maybe some damage buffs to sword 2 (if it's needed after the split is removed). The class is very reliant on energy for survival but suffers from incredibly high energy costs which make any form of sustained combat difficult when combined with their minimal healing abilities. I think removing energy costs from rev's weapon skills and then tweaking energy costs of utilities as needed would be a good way to approach balancing the class as the increased availability of energy would allow rev to make up for the lack of sustain with utility and active defense via dodging, blinding, etc. Bug fixes are desperately needed as well. The class is plagued by them.

As a holo: The fight actually feels fairly easy to win. The main goal is not popping a burst into their glint heal and landing as many ccs as you can. The burst damage from static holo is incredibly strong vs rev so as long as you avoid taking some of their bigger hits it should be a fairly easy fightAs a rev: this mirror matchup is one of the most fun, more so when the revs don't use oh sword. The fight boils down to who uses their glint heal at the best times and who lands their damage combos better. Lack of passives on the class make it very risky to play but incredibly rewarding to pull off.As a thief: this 1v1 is imo one of the easier fights to take as a thief. The glint heal isn't as effective against s/d thief as it is vs d/p given that s/d does more sustained damage and has many ways to pull out of a fight if they are taking too much damage. The rev stolen skill hits a bit too hard imo when you consider that it is ranged, and also applies slow which bugs out many of rev's skills (namely sword 3)

Engi:Holo is incredibly powerful rn. Both conversion and static holo can be used to a high level of effectiveness and don't require a ton of baseline knowledge to play (in order to reach max potential you will need strong class knowledge but base knowledge needed is on the lower end of classes imo) They have an incredible amount of cc available to them, great sustain, and decent team support (more so on conversion holo, but static using HT with blasts and such can help alleviate pressure on teammates). Conv holo handles conditions almost too easily, as their prot sources are very abundant while static can have a hard time dealing with condition heavy specs like mirage or scourge (mirage is definitely the bigger problem of the two as the scourge loses a lot of condition pressure when you avoid their sand shades and stay ranged while mirage can stick on you very well)

As a holo: The fight against conversion holo feels like cancer sometimes as forge damage remains high on conv holo while they maintain high levels of sustain, boon uptime, and cc, but it can be won. Against static holo, it comes down to who lands static bursts and stability more often while avoiding as much of the opponents damage as possible. Static I would say is a fun mirror matchup, conversion I would say is rather unenjoyable.As a rev: the cc pressure is enormous and at times, almost too oppressive given herald's lack of stab (outside of retribution which is atm, not an optimal setup). This combined with the burst that static offers can make the fight incredibly difficult to play. But with well timed glint heals, dodges, and bursts, it can be an incredibly fun and even fight.As a thief: it's unwinnable if the holo has half a mind. They will cc you harder than you can to them, they will burst you harder, they will heal more, and take less damage. If they run reveal trait, it becomes even more slanted in their favor as stealth escapes become unusable, and the extra pressure from the vuln can really hurt you. You are better off running somewhere else and waiting for a +1 opportunity.

Ranger:I feel most people have touched on this enough that I don't need to spend a ton of time on this. The biggest issue I have with soulbeast is the amount of boons they have coupled with high sustain. It just creates a really difficult fight for any class you play when you take into account the random ccs from their pet (I say random in that the ranger is not in control of them) the ease rangers have in ressing their pet, the damage they do, and the insane mobility they have. I think, like mbelch said, if they couldn't merge with a dead pet and there were other requirements for ressing dead pets (maybe they have to ooc for their pets to res? idk because I don't play ranger that much and am unsure if that's an unrealistic requirement for them) they wouldn't have as much utility and boon uptime and there would be an active counter to soulbeast. Druid I have no issues with as they don't put out that much pressure and their sustain isn't near what soulbeast has. 1 shot soulbeast needs some looking at, whether that's tweaking damage mods or reducing base damage of certain skills, nobody should be able to hit 21k in a single hit and have many of those hits available.

All the classes I play lose 1v1s to this (conversion holo has a decent chance for stalemating if you play it right but you probably won't win it reliably)

Thief:Thief is in a rough spot but it's being held back from buffing due to certain present mechanics that ought to be removed. The auto immunity from IR needs to be removed and replaced with something else that can benefit the thief in a similar way without allowing bad thieves to play recklessly without being punished for it. Stealth on dodge with DE and the ability for them to gain malice regardless of whether or not they actually landed the mark on someone (you can dodge it, but they still get the mark effect and malice from it) reduces the counterplay available against DE, carries bad players, and prevents DE from being buffable without creating a monster. Removing/redesigning those mechanics on thief would help to put it in a place where it could be properly buffed/balanced for the long term health of the game and class. Damage overall from thief is low due to the amount of boons in the meta, I don't think thief needs a ton of damage buffs (a few small buffs to sword damage and maybe some boonhate for dagger MH would be welcome), but some small sustain buffs or nerfs to other classes' sustain/boon uptime would go a long way and imo would be better in the long run for the game and for the thief.

As a holo: This 1v1 is easy to win consistently as thief lacks the pressure to out damage you. You have the advantage with cc and sustain. Overall, easy fight, not much to comment on as holo is a counter to thief.As a rev: fighting thief 1v1 is challenging, but winnable with good burst timing from OH sword skills. Rev's lack of mobility (compared to thief) allows the thief to control the pacing of the fight better than the rev can but rev's superior defensive skills and high damage access allows it to win when played well. The fight in my experience favors the thief, but it is by no means a guaranteed win.As a thief: The mirror matchup is incredibly fun to play, outside of dagger storm usage and IR procs. S/D has now taken the advantage over d/p in 1v1 due to how strong those high evasion uptimes are. The fight used to be a lot more fun but the dumbing down of the thief class has made it a lot less entertaining to play.

Ele:Ele has a strong 1v1 in the form of sword weaver, but that's about it. The teamfight contribution is rather low as it's hard for ele to use their water fields to support allies because they can't target where the water fields go. Tempest however, has a decent teamfight when it's built for support, the issue being it's so heavily outclassed by firebrand, it's not worth using. The evasion chains combined with healing ability make the class very annoying to fight at times and would be worth nerfing if it came with a large damage buff to weaver to make it a bit more of a bruiser rather than evade and heal until your condi eventually kills what you're fighting... hopefully.

As a holo: Static is a bit rough to win if the weaver is comfortable with their evade cd's and times them well. Due to static's lack of condi removal, the longer the fight goes on, the more likely it is the weaver will win. Conversion holo, on the other hand, either wins or stalemates. I have found that ele lacks the damage to punch through that tanky of a build so it's a fairly safe 1v1 to take as conv holo.As a rev: You either pull off an insane burst combo, or you lose. Rev's lack of condi removal and sustain coupled with glint heal's lack of effectiveness in fights vs sustained damage classes makes it a ridiculously hard 1v1 to take. That being said, ele is squishy enough that you can pull off a power burst capable of near 1 shots against them in 1v1's or +1s. It doesn't really require much changing imo as rev isn't meant to 1v1 condi builds.As a thief: Good luck. You don't have the power burst to take out a weaver before they evade chain/full heal, and you don't have the sustain to deal with their damage. Only advantage thief has is it's ability to run and come back later due to ele's lack of mobility

Necro:Reaper and scourge dominate teamfight damage, but fall short in the realm of 1v1. I think this is a mostly balanced trade off and given necro's lack of mobility and self sustain, it makes sense they would need a support and a teamfight to rotate to. I do have an issue with how effective they are at ressing though. The ability of a blood necro to res is crazy when they can also use shade skills on themselves to fear foes, create barriers to protect themselves, and drop a decent amount of condi damage on people trying to cleave. If points weren't so small the aoe's wouldn't mean as much but at the moment, scourge can shut down point access to people with their damage output. Again, I don't really think they are game breaking op, but maybe in the future as things are toned down from every class, they could get some shaves.

As a holo: Scourge and reaper are fairly straightforward to fight. Only risk you run is being too close to the reaper when they have enough shroud as the perma quickness in shroud can absolutely demolish you.As a rev: Basically the same thing as above, as long as you don't stick too close to them for too long, the fight is yours.As a thief: Again, fairly easy fight as long as you manage distance properly and be aware of when they have access to their bursts.

Mes:I'll start by saying I'm incredibly biased against mesmer. I dislike fighting them, and as such I will do my best to avoid ranting or biasing my post too much. Chrono has two really solid build options (power 1 shot chrono, and chrono bunker using sc/sh and staff) which have plenty of counterplay available. Chrono bunk is really only an issue in my eyes due to the high boon uptime they can produce, outside of that, they are only really used for 1v1 and outside of being incredibly tanky and hard to kill, don't add much to the team. Mirage on the other hand, has strong power and condition builds which have a very high impact on the game. Their ability to dodge while cced (regardless of using EM or not) provides them with a high level of safety and security in fights. They don't have to worry about animation locks leaving them vulnerable as they can dodge during their skills without interrupting them. If mirage loses some defensive access, the damaging abilities of condi mirage will not be nearly as oppressive as they will not be able to maintain the level of safety they have currently. I'd like to see a reduction in the cc access of mesmer, especially if the damage is going to remain as high as it is.

As a holo: The cc and the condition output can be dealt with, but not easily. The fight definitely favors the mirage but with good play and kiting, you can come out on top. Given mirage is designed to 1v1, this outcome is balanced imo. However, I do think there needs to be a reduction in the build's effectiveness. As a conversion holo, the fight can be stalemated but is still in favor of the mirage as they can burst through your clears and their sustained damage will continue even once you've burned all your clears. You also lack the burst of static discharge and will most likely not be able to end the fight quickly enough for it to be worthwhile unless you control the point already.As rev: this is the most tilting fight in game. You can dodge their burst, but then you have to dodge all the incoming cc, follow up condi, and find a way to kill them when 3 of your 5 sword skills- 2,3,4- split their damage due to clone presence. All the while, you can't run away due to their superior mobility, and you can't stalemate due to rev's lack of condi clear.As a thief: +1 is your best option with this. The fight itself relies on you getting plasma as much as possible and damaging as much as you can while kiting and avoiding the many condis coming at you. Given how well equipped mirage is for sustained combat, it is unlikely you will win a straight 1v1 with it without losing the point you were going for, and spending a long time doing it that would be better spent elsewhere.

Conclusion: There are too many builds which can do high damage (this goes for condi and power) while having high sustain, boon uptime, mobility, and cc access. I'd like to see all of them reduced across the board and see a better system of building in place that requires investment and sacrifice when building (including possible redesign of trait/espec system). As the game currently stands, too many builds are shut out because they are simply outclasses by a more upgraded and updated version of the same role (I.E tempest being outclassed by fb).

Some of these have been really good! Nice contribution @Ario.8964. @Trevor Boyer.6524 perhaps you change the title and make this a more general thread?

@Mbelch.9028 said:Some of these have been really good! Nice contribution @Ario.8964. @Trevor Boyer.6524 perhaps you change the title and make this a more general thread?

Fixed. Probably should have just done that to begin with ^^

@Sampson.2403 Looks like 1650 was indeed just barely enough to maintain top 100 this season.

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Mbelch.9028 said:Some of these have been really good! Nice contribution @Ario.8964. @Trevor Boyer.6524 perhaps you change the title and make this a more general thread?

I almost stopped at 1647. Glad i played a few more games lol.

@Sampson.2403 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Mbelch.9028 said:Some of these have been really good! Nice contribution @Ario.8964. @Trevor Boyer.6524 perhaps you change the title and make this a more general thread?

I looked after the season ended and you both escaped handsomely from falling below top 100 lol. Nicely done. I wish I had the time to devote to playing enough games to bust past the barrier, but I just don't any longer. I still play, I just can't play in 10 game bursts several times a week any longer.

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Point of this thread is to drop your subjective points of views on the current intra-class balance post S14, from the class or classes that you main.

You sir are my favourite poster on these forums. Always enlightening and a good read, thank you!

And thanks to the other knowledgeable posters, you give me hope that the community is alive and kicking!

Trev.. Which SB dps spec have you been running?