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SPOILERS: ideas what to look forward to after E5?

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  • I have a pet theory , in 3-4 month when Ep6 drops, the opening cinematic will be as follows.
    Opening Scene: We start with a female Sylvari taking a shower behind frosted glass.
    Camera Pans in as the sylvari hears a noise, she wipes the glass with a washcloth revealing her face.
    OMG its Faolin and she sees Caithe rush into the bathroom saying ,
    " Oh Faolin, My Love, I've just had the most horrible dream".

  • @Grimmtooth.4163 said:
    The Faolain Shower Thought Theory

    Don't sylvari have plant showers, though?
    But here's my shot into the blue: Aurene transferred the Joko resurrection magic onto the commander to keep him on Tyria. Calling it now, the Commander is now a lich!

  • perilisk.1874perilisk.1874 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Castigator.3470 said:

    @Grimmtooth.4163 said:
    The Faolain Shower Thought Theory

    Don't sylvari have plant showers, though?
    But here's my shot into the blue: Aurene transferred the Joko resurrection magic onto the commander to keep him on Tyria. Calling it now, the Commander is now a lich!

    But maybe she modified it with energy she took from Mordremoth, who in turn extracted it from WPs, before sending it, thus ensuring that the Commander can not only endlessly return from death, but can use the WP network to teleport his body away and resurrect at any waypoint.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Randulf.7614 said:
    Hopefully getting back to decent heroic fantasy without having a silly dragon pet interfering with the plot. Ive wanted her dead since the destroyers invaded the egg chamber. It has been a long pay off...

    Someone clearly hasn't been paying attention to that plot for 7 years then XD

    I really don't understand this attitude some people have with GW2.. specially those who complain about the stories involving Elder Dragons.
    Gw2 is built around the Elder Dragons.. they are and always will be the main antagonists of this game, everything involving them and defeating them is central to this main storyline and that includes Aurine.
    Frankly if you don't like the story direction in Gw2 which is a game heavily defined by it's PvE storytelling then why do you even bother playing PvE at all?

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Nath Forge Tempete.1645 said:

    @Randulf.7614 said:
    Hopefully getting back to decent heroic fantasy without having a silly dragon pet interfering with the plot. Ive wanted her dead since the destroyers invaded the egg chamber. It has been a long pay off...

    What annoys me : they build the entire story around that character for months or even years and now they just "delete" or "destroy" all their story logic by just a making Kralk feint he was almost dead and killing aurene in the processe with an extraordinary regain of power at the last second ... I mean ... it came from nowhere.

    The entire episode was great... just that right moment was rushed for me and makes almost no sense in term of story writting or even logic.

    >
    I don't think you fully understand the kind of power Kralktorrik has at this point, he was already extremely powerful when the game started.. since then he's absorbed a fallen god who possessed a signifcant amount of power from 2 elder dragons and a bloodstone and since then has been feeding on the magical energy holding reality and infinite worlds, realms and timelines together.
    Even in a weakened state he is by far the most powerful being on Tyria by a mile.. and that includes the other 3 Elder Dragons.. two of which have been drained back to a pre awakening state.
    There's a reason we've avoided a direct confrontation with him for so long and why we lured him into a trap to give us every advantage possible.. in a straight fight he would obliterate us.. Aurine showcased that when she tried to go toe to toe with him in a power battle and was overpowered in seconds.

    As if story writters were in a competition to know which one will get the most dramatic (and useless) death in their story episode .

    I don't mind killing important characters but when it makes some sense in the lore at least. HEre it felt almost like you wanted to make something BIG and you were saying like "let's throw the past 10 months of the story away and start something new" with almost no link in between.

    I'm really dissappointed in the way the things were handled. And that cliffhanger ... plz this is not even a good end for a poor soap on netflix ... feels unfinished and rushed.

    I'm the complete opposite, partly because I expected this loss and partly because if what I predict is coming then it will be taking the story to places I've long wanted to see in game.
    At the end of the day though none of us truly knows what comes next and until you do then you can't just write off a characters death like this as useless or senseless.
    Anet have a story plan and until we play it we can only speculate on where that plan will take us.

    Aurine was crucial to the death of Kralkatorrik.. without her we are literally powerless to stop him.
    Frankly I am very much looking forward to playing story content where that reality really sets in.. and how much backlash that brings on us.
    We pushed for that encounter.. we promised everyone we could win.. we failed.. we killed Aurine and we've doomed the world to an invincible Kralkatorrik.
    If that's not the kind of story you want to play then fair enough.. but i've been waiting for something like this for a long time.
    I'm tired of the commander being the be all and end all who can do no wrong and always pulls victorys out of nowhere.. loosing every once in a while is a good way to break that monotony.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 15, 2019

    @Castigator.3470 said:

    @Grimmtooth.4163 said:
    The Faolain Shower Thought Theory

    Don't sylvari have plant showers, though?
    But here's my shot into the blue: Aurene transferred the Joko resurrection magic onto the commander to keep him on Tyria. Calling it now, the Commander is now a lich!

    I dunno why people think Joko had special super res magic.. Joko was a lich.
    All lich's appear immortal.. although they're just powerful Necromancers who either through their own will or an event beyond their control have bound their souls to a phylactery.. an object or thing.. or perhaps you'd prefer the term horcrux as made popular with the Harry Potter universe as they work in the same way, Yes Lord Voldemort was technically a Lich as well ^^
    All Liches can be killed thus are not truly immortal.. typically that's done by destroying their phylactery, since nobody knows how Joko became a Lich or what his phylactery is this is why he continues to get up every time he's been bested in combat thus furthering his reputation as someone who cannot die and why he was constantly sealed away instead as it was easier than killing him.
    They can be killed through other means though.. the undead lich in Gw1 was killed on top of a bloodstone.
    Bloodstones draw in souls from those that are killed on them and the Mursaat worked out how to channel those souls into battry's and use them.
    When we killed the Lich on the bloodstone we pretty much tore his soul away from his body and sealed it in a Soul Battery ending his immortality.

    My guess is that Joko's phylactery is the golden ring he keeps in his mouth (the one thing he has had in both games btw as the rest of his design has changed), If you watch his death cutscene you can clearly see Aurine biting down on his face causing a burst of light.. likely the result of that ring breaking and releasing his soul and the player is unable to get a close up of his corpse afterwards to confirm this removing the need for his model to be altered.
    Due to containing a soul a liches phylactery is often a significantly powerful magical object.. and it's been established from as far back as the personal story that Dragons are attracted to magical artifacts and can sense them.. my guess is Aurine could feel the magic from that ring and knew it's importance because of it.
    And even if she didn't know it's significance and was simply seeking to nom that yummy magic it still would have been the most appealing thing to go for if that was indeed his phylactery.

    Joko was never truly immortal.. he's always been killable it's just that nobody has managed to pull it off until now.
    Joko was also notorious for fabricating stories and fictions about himself so it is without doubt that tales of his immortality were grossly exaggerated.. likely through his will to make people fear him and believe his bullkitten as the honest truth.

  • @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Nath Forge Tempete.1645 said:

    @Randulf.7614 said:
    Hopefully getting back to decent heroic fantasy without having a silly dragon pet interfering with the plot. Ive wanted her dead since the destroyers invaded the egg chamber. It has been a long pay off...

    What annoys me : they build the entire story around that character for months or even years and now they just "delete" or "destroy" all their story logic by just a making Kralk feint he was almost dead and killing aurene in the processe with an extraordinary regain of power at the last second ... I mean ... it came from nowhere.

    The entire episode was great... just that right moment was rushed for me and makes almost no sense in term of story writting or even logic.

    >
    I don't think you fully understand the kind of power Kralktorrik has at this point, he was already extremely powerful when the game started.. since then he's absorbed a fallen god who possessed a signifcant amount of power from 2 elder dragons and a bloodstone and since then has been feeding on the magical energy holding reality and infinite worlds, realms and timelines together.
    Even in a weakened state he is by far the most powerful being on Tyria by a mile.. and that includes the other 3 Elder Dragons.. two of which have been drained back to a pre awakening state.
    There's a reason we've avoided a direct confrontation with him for so long and why we lured him into a trap to give us every advantage possible.. in a straight fight he would obliterate us.. Aurine showcased that when she tried to go toe to toe with him in a power battle and was overpowered in seconds.

    As if story writters were in a competition to know which one will get the most dramatic (and useless) death in their story episode .

    I don't mind killing important characters but when it makes some sense in the lore at least. HEre it felt almost like you wanted to make something BIG and you were saying like "let's throw the past 10 months of the story away and start something new" with almost no link in between.

    I'm really dissappointed in the way the things were handled. And that cliffhanger ... plz this is not even a good end for a poor soap on netflix ... feels unfinished and rushed.

    I'm the complete opposite, partly because I expected this loss and partly because if what I predict is coming then it will be taking the story to places I've long wanted to see in game.
    At the end of the day though none of us truly knows what comes next and until you do then you can't just write off a characters death like this as useless or senseless.
    Anet have a story plan and until we play it we can only speculate on where that plan will take us.

    Aurine was crucial to the death of Kralkatorrik.. without her we are literally powerless to stop him.
    Frankly I am very much looking forward to playing story content where that reality really sets in.. and how much backlash that brings on us.
    We pushed for that encounter.. we promised everyone we could win.. we failed.. we killed Aurine and we've doomed the world to an invincible Kralkatorrik.
    If that's not the kind of story you want to play then fair enough.. but i've been waiting for something like this for a long time.
    I'm tired of the commander being the be all and end all who can do no wrong and always pulls victorys out of nowhere.. loosing every once in a while is a good way to break that monotony.

    You didnt get my point here ! maybe cause of my bad english ... And i'm sorry for that. Aurene is dead . i'm fine with that.

    What I was not okay with :
    1) The entire episode was awesome. We were on point on "killing" kralk that he has no power left to stand. Then he stand up out of nowhere . For me that reaction is a bit inconsistant in term realism.

    2) I hate cliffhanger in the cinema industry. They use it everytime and badly ... it makes me sick basically on watching a new soap on netflix or else. Makes me quit most of the time. So seeying Anet using this tool (which is new for them) made me mad. I don't know it felt wrong to me the way the episode ended (black screen and forced reward)

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 15, 2019

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Randulf.7614 said:
    Hopefully getting back to decent heroic fantasy without having a silly dragon pet interfering with the plot. Ive wanted her dead since the destroyers invaded the egg chamber. It has been a long pay off...

    Someone clearly hasn't been paying attention to that plot for 7 years then XD

    I really don't understand this attitude some people have with GW2.. specially those who complain about the stories involving Elder Dragons.
    Gw2 is built around the Elder Dragons.. they are and always will be the main antagonists of this game, everything involving them and defeating them is central to this main storyline and that includes Aurine.
    Frankly if you don't like the story direction in Gw2 which is a game heavily defined by it's PvE storytelling then why do you even bother playing PvE at all?

    Largely because you misinterpreted my complaint. I dont have an issue with stories sbout elder dragons. I have a major issue with Aurenes involvement. If we look at ls2 which was one of the stronger stories and sections of ls3 (where it was good - ep1, ep4) we as heroic fantasy protagonists took down pretty epic beasts - shadow of the dragon, jades, bloodstone infused caudecus, and mostly epically of all, Balthazars hounds whilst Primordus himself watched!!

    Then we get to ls4 where Aurene is involved in taking down a branded wyvern, kills a highly established franchise villain for one cheap laugh in Joko (thus dismissing more intersting plots) and now is needed to finish and replace a 1000 foot high, millennia old Elder Dragon despite being just a kid. This is not encouraging a buy in for me.

    It is because of pve storytelling that i play, but this particular aspect of the story has been a direction i havent enjoyed. There are lots of narratives i have enjoyed in gw2, but aurene has detracted from it for me.

    I appreciate others feel differently and that is fine, but it isnt an attitude problem on my part not to enjoy a particular direction and be relieved it might be over, when i know the writers are capable of writing something so much better involving Elder Dragons in a lore rich fantasy world.

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Khilbron, The Hunter, and Joko all show being able to be to, well, not die. In that there is no moment they seem unable to control their body. Was Joko physically broken or was he like The Hunter, who was faking it, because Khilbron never reaches that point until his soul is ripped from his body.

    And I do think the dazed state of the Awakened is faked, though not by them but by Joko; when Joko actually dies, the Awakened just describe it as losing their compulsion. Not "I was dazed for a moment, then the compulsion was gone". Furthermore, the two guards were dazed even while Joko was recovering.

    And I would say Aurene's magic was released, as we see Caithe's crystals disintigrate, which is a catch method for Anet to go "life/magic is gone", like with the Eye of Janthir. And Caithe confirms her connection is gone with her words "She's gone...". This, to me, mirrors Zhaitan's and Mordremoth's deaths and their minions no longer hearing their Elder Dragons' voice.

    (EDIT: Plus, GuildChat just confirmed Aurene's a corpse, intentionally bookending the episode with Glint's corpse and Aurene's corpse)

    I'm not sure that I agree with this. Joko was pretty much rendered inert by Turai Ossa, and his forces released from his control at the time. Given that Turai was right in the middle of Joko's otherwise-victorious army at the time, if Joko still had full control, he could have pulled a similar "Psyche!" move that he did to the PC in Episode 3, swarmed Turai with his minions, and at the very least protected himself until he could get back up again.

    Instead, he got sealed for a couple of centuries by the Order of Whispers. They knew he wasn't permanently dead, but he was certainly in a state where he could neither control his minions or fight back personally.

    This suggests to me that Joko's preservation magic does allow for a 'dead' or at least 'inert' state, from which he can recover. In Ep3, he might have been faking, or he might have improved it since the Battle of Jahai so that he had a faster recovery. But I don't think anything we see disproves the possibility of Aurene having a Joko-style resurrection, especially considering that she doesn't have the experience with it that Joko does.

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Castigator.3470 said:

    @Grimmtooth.4163 said:
    The Faolain Shower Thought Theory

    Don't sylvari have plant showers, though?
    But here's my shot into the blue: Aurene transferred the Joko resurrection magic onto the commander to keep him on Tyria. Calling it now, the Commander is now a lich!

    I dunno why people think Joko had special super res magic.. Joko was a lich.
    All lich's appear immortal.. although they're just powerful Necromancers who either through their own will or an event beyond their control have bound their souls to a phylactery.. an object or thing.. or perhaps you'd prefer the term horcrux as made popular with the Harry Potter universe as they work in the same way, Yes Lord Voldemort was technically a Lich as well ^^
    All Liches can be killed thus are not truly immortal.. typically that's done by destroying their phylactery, since nobody knows how Joko became a Lich or what his phylactery is this is why he continues to get up every time he's been bested in combat thus furthering his reputation as someone who cannot die and why he was constantly sealed away instead as it was easier than killing him.
    They can be killed through other means though.. the undead lich in Gw1 was killed on top of a bloodstone.
    Bloodstones draw in souls from those that are killed on them and the Mursaat worked out how to channel those souls into battry's and use them.
    When we killed the Lich on the bloodstone we pretty much tore his soul away from his body and sealed it in a Soul Battery ending his immortality.

    My guess is that Joko's phylactery is the golden ring he keeps in his mouth (the one thing he has had in both games btw as the rest of his design has changed), If you watch his death cutscene you can clearly see Aurine biting down on his face causing a burst of light.. likely the result of that ring breaking and releasing his soul and the player is unable to get a close up of his corpse afterwards to confirm this removing the need for his model to be altered.
    Due to containing a soul a liches phylactery is often a significantly powerful magical object.. and it's been established from as far back as the personal story that Dragons are attracted to magical artifacts and can sense them.. my guess is Aurine could feel the magic from that ring and knew it's importance because of it.
    And even if she didn't know it's significance and was simply seeking to nom that yummy magic it still would have been the most appealing thing to go for if that was indeed his phylactery.

    Joko was never truly immortal.. he's always been killable it's just that nobody has managed to pull it off until now.
    Joko was also notorious for fabricating stories and fictions about himself so it is without doubt that tales of his immortality were grossly exaggerated.. likely through his will to make people fear him and believe his bullkitten as the honest truth.

    You're thinking of D&D liches. As far as I know, nowhere in Guild Wars lore has it ever been indicated that lich immortality came through use of a phylactery, horcrux, or similar form of soul repository.

  • perilisk.1874perilisk.1874 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Nath Forge Tempete.1645 said:
    1) The entire episode was awesome. We were on point on "killing" kralk that he has no power left to stand. Then he stand up out of nowhere . For me that reaction is a bit inconsistant in term realism.

    It's all fun and games, until someone loses an eye.

    Anyway, even in game mechanics, there are lots of traits that activate at low HP. He just had one that let him recover some health and use a super attack. He left after that because it has a long ICD. And in real-life, adrenaline can do something similar.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Nath Forge Tempete.1645 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Nath Forge Tempete.1645 said:

    @Randulf.7614 said:
    Hopefully getting back to decent heroic fantasy without having a silly dragon pet interfering with the plot. Ive wanted her dead since the destroyers invaded the egg chamber. It has been a long pay off...

    What annoys me : they build the entire story around that character for months or even years and now they just "delete" or "destroy" all their story logic by just a making Kralk feint he was almost dead and killing aurene in the processe with an extraordinary regain of power at the last second ... I mean ... it came from nowhere.

    The entire episode was great... just that right moment was rushed for me and makes almost no sense in term of story writting or even logic.

    >
    I don't think you fully understand the kind of power Kralktorrik has at this point, he was already extremely powerful when the game started.. since then he's absorbed a fallen god who possessed a signifcant amount of power from 2 elder dragons and a bloodstone and since then has been feeding on the magical energy holding reality and infinite worlds, realms and timelines together.
    Even in a weakened state he is by far the most powerful being on Tyria by a mile.. and that includes the other 3 Elder Dragons.. two of which have been drained back to a pre awakening state.
    There's a reason we've avoided a direct confrontation with him for so long and why we lured him into a trap to give us every advantage possible.. in a straight fight he would obliterate us.. Aurine showcased that when she tried to go toe to toe with him in a power battle and was overpowered in seconds.

    As if story writters were in a competition to know which one will get the most dramatic (and useless) death in their story episode .

    I don't mind killing important characters but when it makes some sense in the lore at least. HEre it felt almost like you wanted to make something BIG and you were saying like "let's throw the past 10 months of the story away and start something new" with almost no link in between.

    I'm really dissappointed in the way the things were handled. And that cliffhanger ... plz this is not even a good end for a poor soap on netflix ... feels unfinished and rushed.

    I'm the complete opposite, partly because I expected this loss and partly because if what I predict is coming then it will be taking the story to places I've long wanted to see in game.
    At the end of the day though none of us truly knows what comes next and until you do then you can't just write off a characters death like this as useless or senseless.
    Anet have a story plan and until we play it we can only speculate on where that plan will take us.

    Aurine was crucial to the death of Kralkatorrik.. without her we are literally powerless to stop him.
    Frankly I am very much looking forward to playing story content where that reality really sets in.. and how much backlash that brings on us.
    We pushed for that encounter.. we promised everyone we could win.. we failed.. we killed Aurine and we've doomed the world to an invincible Kralkatorrik.
    If that's not the kind of story you want to play then fair enough.. but i've been waiting for something like this for a long time.
    I'm tired of the commander being the be all and end all who can do no wrong and always pulls victorys out of nowhere.. loosing every once in a while is a good way to break that monotony.

    You didnt get my point here ! maybe cause of my bad english ... And i'm sorry for that. Aurene is dead . i'm fine with that.

    What I was not okay with :
    1) The entire episode was awesome. We were on point on "killing" kralk that he has no power left to stand. Then he stand up out of nowhere . For me that reaction is a bit inconsistant in term realism.

    He was tired, injured and pinned under a mountain.. it wasn't about power, even Aurine when exhausted was still able to fight, fly and produce powerful energy blasts.
    Same for us players who at low health are able to output the same kind of damage or power as we are at full health.
    Even on deaths door Kralkatorrik is still capable of pulling off attacks powerful enough to eradicate large areas.. he does this before the final battle phase as he attempts to nuke us out of existence.. again after a short rest where he powers back up.
    It's still not clear whether this was a deliberate feint either.. we don't know his mind but the result was he got what he wanted so it's possible that he played us and was only playing unconscious to lure Aurine in.
    This kind of intelligence isn't uncommon in Elder Dragons they've been known to set traps and display high levels of cunning.

    2) I hate cliffhanger in the cinema industry. They use it everytime and badly ... it makes me sick basically on watching a new soap on netflix or else. Makes me quit most of the time. So seeying Anet using this tool (which is new for them) made me mad. I don't know it felt wrong to me the way the episode ended (black screen and forced reward)

    Drove me crazy in a good way.. made my speculation juices go into overdrive trying to work out what's going to happen now.
    I don't have a problem with cliffhanger endings unless the show or game or whatever i'm investing in ends on a cliffhanger and then gets cancelled.
    I absolutely hate getting to games and tv shows only to have them end that way and their next installments get cancelled for any reason.. drives me insane.
    This was a really good ending imo because it potrays a sense of hopelessness and failure.. the commanders 'I don't know statement' at the end was clearly supposed to make us feel kittened.
    The story is only going to get more interesting from her.. of that I am absolutely sure.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Randulf.7614 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Randulf.7614 said:
    Hopefully getting back to decent heroic fantasy without having a silly dragon pet interfering with the plot. Ive wanted her dead since the destroyers invaded the egg chamber. It has been a long pay off...

    Someone clearly hasn't been paying attention to that plot for 7 years then XD

    I really don't understand this attitude some people have with GW2.. specially those who complain about the stories involving Elder Dragons.
    Gw2 is built around the Elder Dragons.. they are and always will be the main antagonists of this game, everything involving them and defeating them is central to this main storyline and that includes Aurine.
    Frankly if you don't like the story direction in Gw2 which is a game heavily defined by it's PvE storytelling then why do you even bother playing PvE at all?

    Largely because you misinterpreted my complaint. I dont have an issue with stories sbout elder dragons. I have a major issue with Aurenes involvement. If we look at ls2 which was one of the stronger stories and sections of ls3 (where it was good - ep1, ep4, ep5) we as heroic fantasy protagonists took down pretty epic beasts - shadow of the dragon, jades, bloodstone infused caudecus, and mostly epically of all, Balthazars hounds whilst Primordus himself watched!!

    Then we get to ls4 where Aurene is involved in taking down a branded wyvern, kills a highly established franchise villain for one cheap laugh in Joko (thus dismissing more intersting plots) and now is needed to finish and replace a 1000 foot high, millennia old Elder Dragon despite being just a kid. This is not encouraging a buy in for me.

    It is because of pve storytelling that i play, but this particular aspect of the story has been a direction i havent enjoyed. There are lots of narratives i have enjoyed in gw2, but aurene has detracted from it for me.

    It's all built on lore going back centuries in game though, we know we cannot kill Elder dragons without replacing them which makes them far more interesting and forces the story to be more than just.. go here bash the dragon.. go there bash the dragon.. yay world saved!! which is pretty much how this game started out.
    We've been learning about these things for a long time.. and are slowely coming to understand what they are and who they are as individuals, this is essential to make them more interesting antagonists and give them more depth imo.
    Aurines role in this story has been important.. I get that some people don't like her but then everyone has preferences.. some people hate Taimi.. others hate Logan etc.
    I've personally loved having a Dragon swoop in and blast my enemies to ash in the story and the open world, it's fun and awesome ^^ and I was waiting for it for a long time as she was growing up.

    Some of us knew this encounter wasn't going to go in our favour.. I was a big advocate of failing on the forums and on certain Gw2 streams and it surprised me that so many thought Kralkatorrik would fall here in the living world despite all the build up of failure.
    Aurine even Dr Strange'd her death over and over and over again to warn us that we cannot win this battle.
    She was just too weak and too young.. but we wouldn't listen and that's another thing I'm looking forward to.. us being held responsible for this failure.
    If that's not a more interesting plot then I don't know what is..
    I'm personally far more tired of Super Commander always winning and having everything go right all the time, it's a breath of fresh air to fail every once in a while.. and failure is always the best teacher.

    I appreciate others feel differently and that is fine, but it isnt an attitude problem on my part not to enjoy a particular direction and be relieved it might be over, when i know the writers are capable of writing something so much better involving Elder Dragons in a lore rich fantasy world.

    Aye each to their own and all but I have to say I think that season 4 has by far been the best story content in the game so far.
    I'm really excited to see where we go from this point and how badly the fallout for this loss will hit everyone.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 15, 2019

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Khilbron, The Hunter, and Joko all show being able to be to, well, not die. In that there is no moment they seem unable to control their body. Was Joko physically broken or was he like The Hunter, who was faking it, because Khilbron never reaches that point until his soul is ripped from his body.

    And I do think the dazed state of the Awakened is faked, though not by them but by Joko; when Joko actually dies, the Awakened just describe it as losing their compulsion. Not "I was dazed for a moment, then the compulsion was gone". Furthermore, the two guards were dazed even while Joko was recovering.

    And I would say Aurene's magic was released, as we see Caithe's crystals disintigrate, which is a catch method for Anet to go "life/magic is gone", like with the Eye of Janthir. And Caithe confirms her connection is gone with her words "She's gone...". This, to me, mirrors Zhaitan's and Mordremoth's deaths and their minions no longer hearing their Elder Dragons' voice.

    (EDIT: Plus, GuildChat just confirmed Aurene's a corpse, intentionally bookending the episode with Glint's corpse and Aurene's corpse)

    I'm not sure that I agree with this. Joko was pretty much rendered inert by Turai Ossa, and his forces released from his control at the time. Given that Turai was right in the middle of Joko's otherwise-victorious army at the time, if Joko still had full control, he could have pulled a similar "Psyche!" move that he did to the PC in Episode 3, swarmed Turai with his minions, and at the very least protected himself until he could get back up again.

    Instead, he got sealed for a couple of centuries by the Order of Whispers. They knew he wasn't permanently dead, but he was certainly in a state where he could neither control his minions or fight back personally.

    This suggests to me that Joko's preservation magic does allow for a 'dead' or at least 'inert' state, from which he can recover. In Ep3, he might have been faking, or he might have improved it since the Battle of Jahai so that he had a faster recovery. But I don't think anything we see disproves the possibility of Aurene having a Joko-style resurrection, especially considering that she doesn't have the experience with it that Joko does.

    Considering the time jump i'd go with his abilities improving over time..

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Castigator.3470 said:

    @Grimmtooth.4163 said:
    The Faolain Shower Thought Theory

    Don't sylvari have plant showers, though?
    But here's my shot into the blue: Aurene transferred the Joko resurrection magic onto the commander to keep him on Tyria. Calling it now, the Commander is now a lich!

    I dunno why people think Joko had special super res magic.. Joko was a lich.
    All lich's appear immortal.. although they're just powerful Necromancers who either through their own will or an event beyond their control have bound their souls to a phylactery.. an object or thing.. or perhaps you'd prefer the term horcrux as made popular with the Harry Potter universe as they work in the same way, Yes Lord Voldemort was technically a Lich as well ^^
    All Liches can be killed thus are not truly immortal.. typically that's done by destroying their phylactery, since nobody knows how Joko became a Lich or what his phylactery is this is why he continues to get up every time he's been bested in combat thus furthering his reputation as someone who cannot die and why he was constantly sealed away instead as it was easier than killing him.
    They can be killed through other means though.. the undead lich in Gw1 was killed on top of a bloodstone.
    Bloodstones draw in souls from those that are killed on them and the Mursaat worked out how to channel those souls into battry's and use them.
    When we killed the Lich on the bloodstone we pretty much tore his soul away from his body and sealed it in a Soul Battery ending his immortality.

    My guess is that Joko's phylactery is the golden ring he keeps in his mouth (the one thing he has had in both games btw as the rest of his design has changed), If you watch his death cutscene you can clearly see Aurine biting down on his face causing a burst of light.. likely the result of that ring breaking and releasing his soul and the player is unable to get a close up of his corpse afterwards to confirm this removing the need for his model to be altered.
    Due to containing a soul a liches phylactery is often a significantly powerful magical object.. and it's been established from as far back as the personal story that Dragons are attracted to magical artifacts and can sense them.. my guess is Aurine could feel the magic from that ring and knew it's importance because of it.
    And even if she didn't know it's significance and was simply seeking to nom that yummy magic it still would have been the most appealing thing to go for if that was indeed his phylactery.

    Joko was never truly immortal.. he's always been killable it's just that nobody has managed to pull it off until now.
    Joko was also notorious for fabricating stories and fictions about himself so it is without doubt that tales of his immortality were grossly exaggerated.. likely through his will to make people fear him and believe his bullkitten as the honest truth.

    You're thinking of D&D liches. As far as I know, nowhere in Guild Wars lore has it ever been indicated that lich immortality came through use of a phylactery, horcrux, or similar form of soul repository.

    Yes and no.
    The information on Lich's was obtained through a wikipedia page directly linked in the Guildwars 1 Wiki not directly from the D&D booklet although I should note that the D&D booklet definitions of a Lich are pretty much how Lich's in general are defined in many different games etc.
    In the Guildwars universe we've never seen a moral become a Lich so the process and specifics are left open.. but it's a fair guess to assume that they are more or less the same or similar to what's defined in the Lich creature's wiki page.
    After all games/movies take all sorts of inspiration from each other which is why so many fantasy races remain the same or similar in multiple different franchises.

    The fact that we couldn't kill the Gw1 Undead Lich until he was slain on the Bloodstone is a good indicator that Lich immortality in Guildwars lore is tied in someway to the soul.. but yes for the most part it is all speculation as Anet have not provided any concrete lore on how lich's became lich's nor how their immortality actually works in this universe.
    They have however specified that all the Lich's in the Guildwars universe are Necromancers.
    Another Lich of importance to mention too is Fendi Nin who was a dungeon boss in Guidlwars 1, during this battle you had to destroy Fendi Nin's soul to kill him for good or he would regenerate back into his physical body after 30 seconds.

    You are right that there isn't much to go on in regard to Lich lore in the Guildwars universe specifically but I'd be willing to bet that Guildwars Lich's follow similar rules to most others.. and I believe that what I said about Joko in the last post is a pretty solid potential explination of his immortality and how he actually died.
    Personally I'd very much like to have the writers provide us with a concrete explination on Joko's immortality but I think they left that information out intentionally to give him more mystery.

  • @Teratus.2859 said:
    Yes and no.
    The information on Lich's was obtained through a wikipedia page directly linked in the Guildwars 1 Wiki not directly from the D&D booklet although I should note that the D&D booklet definitions of a Lich are pretty much how Lich's in general are defined in many different games etc.
    In the Guildwars universe we've never seen a moral become a Lich so the process and specifics are left open.. but it's a fair guess to assume that they are more or less the same or similar to what's defined in the Lich creature's wiki page.
    After all games/movies take all sorts of inspiration from each other which is why so many fantasy races remain the same or similar in multiple different franchises.

    The fact that we couldn't kill the Gw1 Undead Lich until he was slain on the Bloodstone is a good indicator that Lich immortality in Guildwars lore is tied in someway to the soul.. but yes for the most part it is all speculation as Anet have not provided any concrete lore on how lich's became lich's nor how their immortality actually works in this universe.
    They have however specified that all the Lich's in the Guildwars universe are Necromancers.
    Another Lich of importance to mention too is Fendi Nin who was a dungeon boss in Guidlwars 1, during this battle you had to destroy Fendi Nin's soul to kill him for good or he would regenerate back into his physical body after 30 seconds.

    You are right that there isn't much to go on in regard to Lich lore in the Guildwars universe specifically but I'd be willing to bet that Guildwars Lich's follow similar rules to most others.. and I believe that what I said about Joko in the last post is a pretty solid potential explination of his immortality and how he actually died.
    Personally I'd very much like to have the writers provide us with a concrete explination on Joko's immortality but I think they left that information out intentionally to give him more mystery.

    We can't really say Fendi Nin is a lich. Though he does function very similarly to the other liches, unlike Khilbron, The Hunter, Joko, and Mazdak, Fendi Nin's soul was directly attackable. The only dungeon boss called a lich would be Zoldark, who's immortality spell seemed to affect his undead minions, rather than himself (whether he was really a lich is thus unclear, and whether we even killed him also so, for all we know he played dead).

    While there isn't much to rely on for lich lore in Guild Wars, we do know one thing: nothing points to them having a phylactery in the D&D sense. Given the Awakened champ loot bag is a phylactery, it is more likely that phylacteries in Guild Wars are closer to the traditional sense of the word. Traditionally, phylacteries are "a small leather box containing Hebrew texts on vellum, worn by Jewish men at morning prayer as a reminder to keep the law." It's likely that Guild Wars' phylacteries are similar, though change Hebrew texts to otherwise religious items.

    Furthering that line of thought, Khilbron was killed by ripping his soul out of his body. This alone actually indicates that the D&D definition of lich is not true, as in D&D the lich's soul is not in their body, but in their phylactery. Presuming all other liches function the same way, this would mean Joko himself doesn't have a phylactery. His death was caused by unbinding the magic that kept him "alive"; Khilbron was killed by ripping his soul out of his body; Fendi Nin, if one can call that a lich, was killed by dispersing his soul.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I'd also note that just because you got your information from a generic wiki page doesn't mean that it doesn't ultimately trace back to D&D. A lot of things that have come to be regarded as accepted fantasy convention ultimately dates back to D&D... looks pointedly at the 'wyverns are not true dragons' idea.

  • I don't believe Aurene will come back next episode but probably sometime in Season 5. Something I also noticed is Anet hinting that Kralkatorrik will be the last elder dragon we will be fighting and since Gw2 is based around Elder Dragon Season 5 might be the end of gw2 story/plot, if we kill Kralkatorrik.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 16, 2019

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Yes and no.
    The information on Lich's was obtained through a wikipedia page directly linked in the Guildwars 1 Wiki not directly from the D&D booklet although I should note that the D&D booklet definitions of a Lich are pretty much how Lich's in general are defined in many different games etc.
    In the Guildwars universe we've never seen a moral become a Lich so the process and specifics are left open.. but it's a fair guess to assume that they are more or less the same or similar to what's defined in the Lich creature's wiki page.
    After all games/movies take all sorts of inspiration from each other which is why so many fantasy races remain the same or similar in multiple different franchises.

    The fact that we couldn't kill the Gw1 Undead Lich until he was slain on the Bloodstone is a good indicator that Lich immortality in Guildwars lore is tied in someway to the soul.. but yes for the most part it is all speculation as Anet have not provided any concrete lore on how lich's became lich's nor how their immortality actually works in this universe.
    They have however specified that all the Lich's in the Guildwars universe are Necromancers.
    Another Lich of importance to mention too is Fendi Nin who was a dungeon boss in Guidlwars 1, during this battle you had to destroy Fendi Nin's soul to kill him for good or he would regenerate back into his physical body after 30 seconds.

    You are right that there isn't much to go on in regard to Lich lore in the Guildwars universe specifically but I'd be willing to bet that Guildwars Lich's follow similar rules to most others.. and I believe that what I said about Joko in the last post is a pretty solid potential explination of his immortality and how he actually died.
    Personally I'd very much like to have the writers provide us with a concrete explination on Joko's immortality but I think they left that information out intentionally to give him more mystery.

    We can't really say Fendi Nin is a lich. Though he does function very similarly to the other liches, unlike Khilbron, The Hunter, Joko, and Mazdak, Fendi Nin's soul was directly attackable. The only dungeon boss called a lich would be Zoldark, who's immortality spell seemed to affect his undead minions, rather than himself (whether he was really a lich is thus unclear, and whether we even killed him also so, for all we know he played dead).

    He is defined as one on the Lich section of the Guildwars Wiki although he is also noted as being regarded as a zombie type creatue much like Zoldark is also classed as a Skeleton.. there are also Dragon Lich's and a few others on there too so it's a loose classification for Lich.
    I would agree that Undead Lich and Joko are the only two true Liches in this universe but out of all the others I would acept Fendi Nin as well even though he is just a boss with Lich like mechanics and not an actual heavyweight in the games lore like Khilbron and Joko

    While there isn't much to rely on for lich lore in Guild Wars, we do know one thing: nothing points to them having a phylactery in the D&D sense. Given the Awakened champ loot bag is a phylactery, it is more likely that phylacteries in Guild Wars are closer to the traditional sense of the word. Traditionally, phylacteries are "a small leather box containing Hebrew texts on vellum, worn by Jewish men at morning prayer as a reminder to keep the law." It's likely that Guild Wars' phylacteries are similar, though change Hebrew texts to otherwise religious items.

    Yes I am aware of the traditional meaning of a phylactery being a box with scrolls etc but they can also be magical amulets or jewelry..
    a Lich's phylacetry doesn't have to be a box.. it can be anything that a Lich uses to store his soul inside.. hence my theory on Joko's mouth ring.
    More in this in the next bit.

    Furthering that line of thought, Khilbron was killed by ripping his soul out of his body. This alone actually indicates that the D&D definition of lich is not true, as in D&D the lich's soul is not in their body, but in their phylactery. Presuming all other liches function the same way, this would mean Joko himself doesn't have a phylactery. His death was caused by unbinding the magic that kept him "alive"; Khilbron was killed by ripping his soul out of his body; Fendi Nin, if one can call that a lich, was killed by dispersing his soul.

    Yes he was killed that way however I would also like to point out that there is an ascended ring in Gw2 called Khilbron's Phylactery.. confirming that Phylactery's in this universe do expand to the second definition of magical objects/jewelry.
    The Gw2 wiki page trivia section about this states:
    (Making a phylactery is the traditional means through which a powerful wizard becomes a Lich. Vizier Khilbron was an Undead Lich and the main antagonist in Guild Wars Prophecies.)
    So while it is inded true that Khilbron was killed in the Cataclysm it's also true that he did create an actual Phylactery although it isn't clear whether he did this intentionally to become the Undead Lich or if this was an unintended effect of the Cataclysm.. his soul ripped from his body and fused to his ring making the Phylactery an accident.

    Joko on the other hand we don't know his full back story but we do know that he had a strong affinity for Necromancy and did become a Lich of his own will and it's a fair assumption to think that he also achieved this form using a Phylactery which does give my theory on his mouth ring being his Phylactery some plausability.
    It is very possible that I am wrong though and Joko became a Lich through another method, I just thought my theory was pretty solid, explaining his life as a Lich and true death at the hands of Aurine.
    But it's just a theory.. a ga.. ok I wont do it XD

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 17, 2019

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    He is defined as one on the Lich section of the Guildwars Wiki although he is also noted as being regarded as a zombie type creatue much like Zoldark is also classed as a Skeleton.. there are also Dragon Lich's and a few others on there too so it's a loose classification for Lich.
    I would agree that Undead Lich and Joko are the only two true Liches in this universe but out of all the others I would acept Fendi Nin as well even though he is just a boss with Lich like mechanics and not an actual heavyweight in the games lore like Khilbron and Joko

    That list, like almost all things wiki, is made by players thus subject to be fallible, and in this case, the entry is unfounded. The list also includes Rotscale, who has zero relation to liches other than commanding other undead, which is not unique to liches. Both of those entries were added by "User:Falconeye", whom I remember I had to correct many times in the past before I ceased editing GWW.

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Yes I am aware of the traditional meaning of a phylactery being a box with scrolls etc but they can also be magical amulets or jewelry..
    a Lich's phylacetry doesn't have to be a box.. it can be anything that a Lich uses to store his soul inside.. hence my theory on Joko's mouth ring.

    Not my point. My point is that we have things called phylacteries in the game. And they are containers worn by undead which are very much not liches. Like Champion Awakened Solders and Champion Awakened Archers and Champion Awakened Mummies.

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Yes he was killed that way however I would also like to point out that there is an ascended ring in Gw2 called Khilbron's Phylactery.. confirming that Phylactery's in this universe do expand to the second definition of magical objects/jewelry.
    The Gw2 wiki page trivia section about this states: -snip-
    So while it is inded true that Khilbron was killed in the Cataclysm it's also true that he did create an actual Phylactery although it isn't clear whether he did this intentionally to become the Undead Lich or if this was an unintended effect of the Cataclysm.. his soul ripped from his body and fused to his ring making the Phylactery an accident.

    The ring has literally zero context, with no indication it housed a soul at any point, while the hundreds of duplicates of the other case has context. Besides, unless Khilbron was wearing that ring (his model does not have one nor was it ever brought up in Prophecies) then we know the ring didn't contain Khilbron's soul since he died due to his soul being ripped out of his body, without the ring's involvement.

    This ascended ring actually looks to be a reference to cut, uncanon, content which involved a skill with a ring-like called "Lich's Phylactery". Sadly, without context to this beyond "quest item", we don't even know if this meant it was intended to be a traditional D&D lich-style phylactery, or a new take on phylacteries like many other things in GW1 were.

    Undead Prince Rurik: "Listen to me. The Door of Komalie must be closed. Kill the Lich while he stands atop the Bloodstone inside the caldera. "
    Undead Prince Rurik: "If you do this, his spirit will recharge the soul batteries, and the Door will close again."
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Hell's_Precipice#Intermediate_cinematic_.282.29

    No mention of a ring. No mention of a phylactery.

    I pressed on, heading back to the opened Door of Komalie for my final confrontation with the Lich Lord. After an epic struggle, I killed him on the Bloodstone itself, so he would never again trouble the waking world. My task are [sic] complete. What lies in store for me next I cannot say, but for now I head to Droknar's Forge to bring King Jalis news of our victory.
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/The_Flameseeker_Prophecies

    No mention of a ring. No mention of a phylactery.

    https://wiki.guildwars.com/index.php?title=Special:Search&search=phylactery&go=Go

    No mention of a phylactery anywhere in GW1, except that one unimplemented skill.

    Joko on the other hand we don't know his full back story but we do know that he had a strong affinity for Necromancy and did become a Lich of his own will and it's a fair assumption to think that he also achieved this form using a Phylactery which does give my theory on his mouth ring being his Phylactery some plausability.

    I don't think it's a fair assumption at all. First off: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Palawan_Phylactery Are one example of phylacteries in Guild Wars with some context.

    Secondly, it's stated in GW1 that he had obtained scriptures of Abaddon (source: https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Ascension_Pilgrim ) and attempts to find such scriptures led to instructions to meet a wish-granting djinn (source: https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Coffer_of_Joko https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/One_Man's_Dream) and dialogue implies that this djinn has granted wishes before ( https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Djinn_Overseer ), with a limit of doing so only every hundred years. This ties to two possible origins for Joko's lichdom right there - work of a djinn, or, like it's highly suggested for Khilbron, via Abaddon.

    Thirdly, if anything was a phylactery, it'd be his staff. He cared a lot about getting his staff back.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 17, 2019

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Yes I am aware of the traditional meaning of a phylactery being a box with scrolls etc but they can also be magical amulets or jewelry..
    a Lich's phylacetry doesn't have to be a box.. it can be anything that a Lich uses to store his soul inside.. hence my theory on Joko's mouth ring.

    Not my point. My point is that we have things called phylacteries in the game. And they are containers worn by undead which are very much not liches. Like Champion Awakened Solders and Champion Awakened Archers and Champion Awakened Mummies.

    Technically we have both variations.

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Yes he was killed that way however I would also like to point out that there is an ascended ring in Gw2 called Khilbron's Phylactery.. confirming that Phylactery's in this universe do expand to the second definition of magical objects/jewelry.
    The Gw2 wiki page trivia section about this states: -snip-
    So while it is inded true that Khilbron was killed in the Cataclysm it's also true that he did create an actual Phylactery although it isn't clear whether he did this intentionally to become the Undead Lich or if this was an unintended effect of the Cataclysm.. his soul ripped from his body and fused to his ring making the Phylactery an accident.

    The ring has literally zero context, with no indication it housed a soul at any point, while the hundreds of duplicates of the other case has context. Besides, unless Khilbron was wearing that ring (his model does not have one nor was it ever brought up in Prophecies) then we know the ring didn't contain Khilbron's soul since he died due to his soul being ripped out of his body, without the ring's involvement.

    This ascended ring actually looks to be a reference to cut, uncanon, content which involved a skill with a ring-like called "Lich's Phylactery". Sadly, without context to this beyond "quest item", we don't even know if this meant it was intended to be a traditional D&D lich-style phylactery, or a new take on phylacteries like many other things in GW1 were.

    I don't see why they must be mutually exclusive, there's no reason both definitions can't exist in the same universe.
    The Ring may be a reference to cut content but then cut content doesn't make it into the lore.. the ring however did make it into the game so as far as i'm concerned it exists in the lore like many other ascended items which are often references or throwbacks to significant items in the games lore.

    You say there's no context but it's in the very name, The ring would not be a phylactery if it never housed a soul.. it would just be Khilbrons Ring if that was the case.
    Khilbron died a long time before we met him in Gw1 and as I said before, the exact deatils involving the process of becoming a lich is not specified.
    He may not have become one intentionally.. or he may have.. what we do know however is that Khilbron in life had become a worshiper of Abaddon and that both the Charr invasion of Orr and the Cataclysm Khilbron caused were orchestrated by Abaddon.. it's not a long shot to assume from that that Khilbron becoming a Lich and causing the events of GW Prophecies was deliberately caused by Abaddon as well.. we already know the latter is confirmed lore.

    Undead Prince Rurik: "Listen to me. The Door of Komalie must be closed. Kill the Lich while he stands atop the Bloodstone inside the caldera. "
    Undead Prince Rurik: "If you do this, his spirit will recharge the soul batteries, and the Door will close again."
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Hell's_Precipice#Intermediate_cinematic_.282.29

    No mention of a ring. No mention of a phylactery.

    I pressed on, heading back to the opened Door of Komalie for my final confrontation with the Lich Lord. After an epic struggle, I killed him on the Bloodstone itself, so he would never again trouble the waking world. My task are [sic] complete. What lies in store for me next I cannot say, but for now I head to Droknar's Forge to bring King Jalis news of our victory.
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/The_Flameseeker_Prophecies

    No mention of a ring. No mention of a phylactery.

    https://wiki.guildwars.com/index.php?title=Special:Search&search=phylactery&go=Go

    No mention of a phylactery anywhere in GW1, except that one unimplemented skill.

    The way Khilbron/Lich died in Gw1 didn't require the ring or it's destruction.
    He was slain on a Bloodstone, his soul consumed by it to feed the Mursaat batteries like everything else that dies on top of one.
    If we had killed Joko on top of one it would have likely ended him as well.
    When a Lich dies it's soul returns to it's phylactery for the lich ro be resurrected.. killing one on top of a bloodstone interupts this process and the soul is instead consumed by the bloodstone which is vastly more powerful than any human made magical artifact.
    You can criticize the D&D referencing over what defines a Lich but pretty much all Lich creatures in fantasy games originate from the D&D book.. much like most fantasy races and monsters do.
    It's common practice in this industry to take influence from various fantasy works and mythology.. that's why like I said before many creatures and beings depicted in countless games share so many common traits.

    Joko on the other hand we don't know his full back story but we do know that he had a strong affinity for Necromancy and did become a Lich of his own will and it's a fair assumption to think that he also achieved this form using a Phylactery which does give my theory on his mouth ring being his Phylactery some plausability.

    I don't think it's a fair assumption at all. First off: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Palawan_Phylactery Are one example of phylacteries in Guild Wars with some context.

    Secondly, it's stated in GW1 that he had obtained scriptures of Abaddon (source: https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Ascension_Pilgrim ) and attempts to find such scriptures led to instructions to meet a wish-granting djinn (source: https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Coffer_of_Joko https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/One_Man's_Dream) and dialogue implies that this djinn has granted wishes before ( https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Djinn_Overseer ), with a limit of doing so only every hundred years. This ties to two possible origins for Joko's lichdom right there - work of a djinn, or, like it's highly suggested for Khilbron, via Abaddon.

    Thirdly, if anything was a phylactery, it'd be his staff. He cared a lot about getting his staff back.

    I'm aware of the Djinn although there is no confirmation on whether he sort it out.. besides that Djinn was hostile in Gw1 so chances are it attacked everyone who did rather than granting their wishes.
    There's no other details on those scriptures either besides the one Khilbron used to cause the Cataclysm.
    Joko was a lot of things but he was definitely not stupid.. I'd bet he learned what he could from those scrolls and then hid them away to avoid another cataclysm like event unlil he actively wanted to cause one.
    It's possible he could have become a Lich or learned how from the Djinn but I highly doubt he had much of an alliance with Abaddon considering he helped us in Gw1 resulting in Abaddons death.. something I doubt he would have done if he cared about the fallen god.
    Joko only cares about Joko and he only does things that benefit himself.. I think that's very clear based on his character.
    But that's not the point I'm even making anyway, my theory is entirely based on what he used as a phylactery to house his soul.. I speculate the mouth ring because it's the only thing Joko has kept close to him at all times through the entire franchise and it's the only thing that could have been destroyed explaining the burst of magical energy released when he was finally killed for good.
    His staff was a powerful tool, however in Gw1 it had a completely different name and design and was specified to be what Joko used to control other undead.. in the time between Gw1 and Gw2 Joko appears to have mastered the art of awakening others and no longer needs his staff to maintain their loyalty (with exception to Koss) as seen in Gw1 where a rebelious awakened stole the staff and his army.
    It's possible it is the same staff though but it's been upgraded over time and renamed but I doubt it.. if all it takes is for one rebelious awakened to steal it and his army with it then it's far more of a unjustified risk.. if he doesn't need the staff to control his army I expect he would have destroyed the original and made his new one.. which he wouldn't have been able to if it was his phylactery as he would have killed himself.
    My guess is his Gw2 staff was a different one although that's again speculation.

    What you've been arguing is a different definition of phylacteries based on items in the game and their relation to the original definition.. but like I said, there is no reason both types cannot exist in the game and i'm not even arguing against the original definition anyway.. I support both.
    There are phylcatery loot bags and phylactery artifacts tied to Lich's in the game lore so I don't see why you dismiss one entirely when both clearly exist.

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